Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread Bill Dube via EV 
A fuel cell _is_ a battery, of sorts. You just are continuously feeding 
the "battery" with fresh hydrogen and oxygen electrolyte.


Why convert from electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity 
with the inevitable conversion step inefficiencies? Skip the hydrogen 
part and simply fill the car directly with electricity. The solution is 
obvious if you just step back and think for a few moments about the 
entire process and the goal you are trying to achieve.


Bill D.

On 5/25/2017 9:26 AM, 63urban via EV wrote:
 
If hydrogen can be used as a battery then it would not be a waste as the cost of solar comes down you have a use for excess capacity

Nick


Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

 Original message 
From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Date: 2017-05-25  11:14 AM  (GMT-05:00)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

Perhaps at some point. However, solar panels are still expensive and
inefficient enough that it seems like a waste to convert their
electricity to hydrogen. If I remember correctly, you'll loose 50% of
the energy during that step versus maybe an 80% overall efficiency level
for an EV.

Peri


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Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread Peter Gabrielsson via EV 
It's still a waste. Round trip efficiency for splitting water, compressing
it for storage, extracting energy through fuel cell is very low:

from wikipedia
"
Practical electrolysis (using a rotating electrolyser at 15 bar pressure)
may consume 50 kilowatt-hours per kilogram (180 MJ/kg), and a further 15
kilowatt-hours (54 MJ) if the hydrogen is compressed for use in hydrogen
cars.[21] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#cite_note-21>
"

One kg of hydrogen contains 33kWh of energy, of which the fuel cell can
extract about half.

So you put 65kWh in and got 16kwh out, at best.

I don't know about you, but my roof only has room for so many solar panels
regardless of their cost.







On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:26 AM, 63urban via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

>
>
> If hydrogen can be used as a battery then it would not be a waste as the
> cost of solar comes down you have a use for excess capacity
> Nick
>
>
> Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
>
>  Original message 
> From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Date: 2017-05-25  11:14 AM  (GMT-05:00)
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)
>
> Perhaps at some point. However, solar panels are still expensive and
> inefficient enough that it seems like a waste to convert their
> electricity to hydrogen. If I remember correctly, you'll loose 50% of
> the energy during that step versus maybe an 80% overall efficiency level
> for an EV.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc:
> Sent: 25-May-17 7:55:48 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)
>
> >Yet another “hydrogen future” article…
> >
> >
> >
> >http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/05/hydrogen-economy-for-
> real/?utm_source=WEEKLY+TriplePundit+Mailing+List_
> campaign=8544b4d04e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_04_medium=email_term=0_
> 1d50d22c4a-8544b4d04e-220445429
> >
> >
> >
> >But one thing did catch my eye.  And that is the idea of SELF fueling?
> >The
> >#1 problem with Hydrogen is the complete lack of distribution network
> >AND
> >the complete lack of a clean source of Hydrogen.
> >
> >
> >
> >But what if we used the Ridiculously low cost of solar panels (now
> >under 25
> >cents a watt) to generate electricity on our homes to then electrolyze
> >water into hydrogen right at HOME?  That solves both of the major
> >hydrogen
> >car problems (distribution and clean)?
> >
> >
> >
> >After blowing up a few homes, I would think that we could come up with
> >suitable cheap and safe home electrolyzers and tank filler-uppers.
> >
> >
> >
> >This ALSO solves the growing problem of utility push-back killing
> >net-metring concepts and forcing more and more people into the econimcs
> >of
> >home storage.  If generating and storing hydrogen at home becomes an
> >appliance, there might be a niche…?
> >
> >
> >
> >Bob, WB4APR
> >-- next part --
> >An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread 63urban via EV 


If hydrogen can be used as a battery then it would not be a waste as the cost 
of solar comes down you have a use for excess capacity
Nick


Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

 Original message 
From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Date: 2017-05-25  11:14 AM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?) 

Perhaps at some point. However, solar panels are still expensive and 
inefficient enough that it seems like a waste to convert their 
electricity to hydrogen. If I remember correctly, you'll loose 50% of 
the energy during that step versus maybe an 80% overall efficiency level 
for an EV.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc:
Sent: 25-May-17 7:55:48 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

>Yet another “hydrogen future” article…
>
>
>
>http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/05/hydrogen-economy-for-real/?utm_source=WEEKLY+TriplePundit+Mailing+List_campaign=8544b4d04e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_04_medium=email_term=0_1d50d22c4a-8544b4d04e-220445429
>
>
>
>But one thing did catch my eye.  And that is the idea of SELF fueling?  
>The
>#1 problem with Hydrogen is the complete lack of distribution network 
>AND
>the complete lack of a clean source of Hydrogen.
>
>
>
>But what if we used the Ridiculously low cost of solar panels (now 
>under 25
>cents a watt) to generate electricity on our homes to then electrolyze
>water into hydrogen right at HOME?  That solves both of the major 
>hydrogen
>car problems (distribution and clean)?
>
>
>
>After blowing up a few homes, I would think that we could come up with
>suitable cheap and safe home electrolyzers and tank filler-uppers.
>
>
>
>This ALSO solves the growing problem of utility push-back killing
>net-metring concepts and forcing more and more people into the econimcs 
>of
>home storage.  If generating and storing hydrogen at home becomes an
>appliance, there might be a niche…?
>
>
>
>Bob, WB4APR
>-- next part --
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL: 
><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20170525/9cd4fa9c/attachment.htm>
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>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>

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Re: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread Peri Hartman via EV 
Perhaps at some point. However, solar panels are still expensive and 
inefficient enough that it seems like a waste to convert their 
electricity to hydrogen. If I remember correctly, you'll loose 50% of 
the energy during that step versus maybe an 80% overall efficiency level 
for an EV.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc:
Sent: 25-May-17 7:55:48 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)


Yet another “hydrogen future” article…



http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/05/hydrogen-economy-for-real/?utm_source=WEEKLY+TriplePundit+Mailing+List_campaign=8544b4d04e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_04_medium=email_term=0_1d50d22c4a-8544b4d04e-220445429



But one thing did catch my eye.  And that is the idea of SELF fueling?  
The
#1 problem with Hydrogen is the complete lack of distribution network 
AND

the complete lack of a clean source of Hydrogen.



But what if we used the Ridiculously low cost of solar panels (now 
under 25

cents a watt) to generate electricity on our homes to then electrolyze
water into hydrogen right at HOME?  That solves both of the major 
hydrogen

car problems (distribution and clean)?



After blowing up a few homes, I would think that we could come up with
suitable cheap and safe home electrolyzers and tank filler-uppers.



This ALSO solves the growing problem of utility push-back killing
net-metring concepts and forcing more and more people into the econimcs 
of

home storage.  If generating and storing hydrogen at home becomes an
appliance, there might be a niche…?



Bob, WB4APR
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[EVDL] EVDL: Hydrogen - here we go again? (or maybe?)

2017-05-25 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
Yet another “hydrogen future” article…



http://www.triplepundit.com/2017/05/hydrogen-economy-for-real/?utm_source=WEEKLY+TriplePundit+Mailing+List_campaign=8544b4d04e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_04_medium=email_term=0_1d50d22c4a-8544b4d04e-220445429



But one thing did catch my eye.  And that is the idea of SELF fueling?  The
#1 problem with Hydrogen is the complete lack of distribution network AND
the complete lack of a clean source of Hydrogen.



But what if we used the Ridiculously low cost of solar panels (now under 25
cents a watt) to generate electricity on our homes to then electrolyze
water into hydrogen right at HOME?  That solves both of the major hydrogen
car problems (distribution and clean)?



After blowing up a few homes, I would think that we could come up with
suitable cheap and safe home electrolyzers and tank filler-uppers.



This ALSO solves the growing problem of utility push-back killing
net-metring concepts and forcing more and more people into the econimcs of
home storage.  If generating and storing hydrogen at home becomes an
appliance, there might be a niche…?



Bob, WB4APR
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