Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-07 Thread Roland via EV 
   
 

 

Current is the effect, voltage is the cause.  Current cannot flow without 
voltage. 

 

If you have a leakage of the current or another parallel path, the voltage will 
drop causing increase ampere, there will be a differential of ampere and 
voltage, thus different current effects.  

 

You can either use a voltage relay or a current relay that detects the under 
voltage or over current of circuits which can disconnect the circuit.

 

We normally use program devices on large transformers installation that detects 
phase loss and current faults.  

 

Roland 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


- Original Message - 

From: Robert Bruninga via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: David Nelson<mailto:gizm...@gmail.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 8:04 PM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?



Correction:
 > If either the Line Wire (Hot) or a color conductor which will be black,
red

> > or blue has voltage that is different then the Neutral Wire (White), the
> the
> > GFI will detect this unbalance and will open up the circuit.
>

No, it is not voltage it is current.  If the current is not identical in
both conductors, then there is a 3rd leakage path which might be your body,
so it trips.
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-07 Thread David Nelson via EV 
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 7:34 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> As for charging at 20a on a 20a circuit, don't do it!  The maximum sustained
> single load allowed on a 20a circuit is 0.8 * 20 == 16 amps.
>

Just to reiterate, I am not charging at 20A on a 20A circuit. I charge
at 12A on a 15A circuit, 16A on a 20A circuit and 20A on a 30A
circuit. I only am charging at 20A on a 30A circuit because my EVSE is
limited to 20A. A TT-30 outlet is a 120V 30A Travel Trailer outlet and
is very common at RV parks.

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http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-07 Thread David Nelson via EV 
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 4:32 AM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> Ah,so the Kia travel charger does not detect 120V input
> to set its 12A pilot signal pattern, it detects absence of
> voltage between ground and one phase as "this must be 120V".

That is not what I said. The Kia _on board charger_ will charge at
higher than 12A on 120V. Not the Kia travel EVSE. I tried to be very
explicit in using the correct terms so as to not create confusion.

I am only creating an adapter for a _different_ EVSE for use on 120V
30A circuits, hence the TT-30 outlet referenced. I already can program
the EVSE to 16A for use on a 5-20 outlet.

Hope this clarifies.
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-07 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
Unbalanced current is what is *measured* in a GCFI.  And also, it is the
unbalanced current that is the cause and the voltage droop is an after
effect.  Bob

From: Roland [mailto:e...@msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 2:07 AM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; David Nelson
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?



Current is the effect, voltage is the cause.  Current cannot flow without
voltage.

If you have a leakage of the current or another parallel path, the voltage
will drop causing increase ampere, there will be a differential of ampere
and voltage, thus different current effects.

You can either use a voltage relay or a current relay that detects the
under voltage or over current of circuits which can disconnect the
circuit.

We normally use program devices on large transformers installation that
detects phase loss and current faults.

Roland








- Original Message -
From: Robert Bruninga via EV
To: David Nelson ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

Correction:
 > If either the Line Wire (Hot) or a color conductor which will be black,
red

> > or blue has voltage that is different then the Neutral Wire (White),
the
> the
> > GFI will detect this unbalance and will open up the circuit.
>

No, it is not voltage it is current.  If the current is not identical in
both conductors, then there is a 3rd leakage path which might be your
body,
so it trips.
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-07 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 7 Oct 2015 at 4:32, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> I had an outlet overheating on the *opposite* side as where I
> charge, because that is how the power was coming into the
> garage - via wires stabbed into the back of outlets and one of
> them was high resistance - already completely blackened.

Those "backstab" receptacles are no longer permitted by electrical code on 
20 amp circuits.  They are a bad idea even on 15 amp circuits.  Using the 
terminal screws instead is a minimum repair.  I would replace the 
receptacle.

As for charging at 20a on a 20a circuit, don't do it!  The maximum sustained 
single load allowed on a 20a circuit is 0.8 * 20 == 16 amps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On Oct 6, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Peter Gabrielsson via EV  wrote:

> If this is a permanent thing you might want to drive a ground rod next to
> the pedestal.

Even if not permanent, there're ways of creating grounds -- including driving a 
rod or looking for something conductive already grounded. But extreme caution 
is called for, of course, lest you energize something that shouldn't be 
energized

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread Roland via EV 
   
Hello Peter, 

 

In old installation that use no ground, you can either replace the circuit 
breaker with a Ground Fault Type or even install a Ground Fault Receptacle in 
the line between the panel circuit breaker and load.  

 

If either the Line Wire (Hot) or a color conductor which will be black, red or 
blue has voltage that is different then the Neutral Wire (White), the the GFI 
will detect this unbalance and will open up the circuit. 

 

In old install, we can according to the NEC, we can install a GFI receptacle on 
the first outlet from the circuit breaker on two wire circuits.  This will also 
protect the other receptacles down the line on this circuit.  

 

This GFI will still work with out a ground source.  You will not be able to 
test the receptacle by pushing the RED reset button. 

 

The only place the Neutral and Ground wire can be connected together is at the 
First Main Switch at a Service Entrance.  The Neutral and Ground wire shall 
remain isolated completely through the circuit until it reaches the First 
Disconnect Switch.  The ground wire is then connected to a ground rod only at 
the Service Switch Location.  

 

Another way is to build the EV with all the incoming AC circuits and Devices 
Double Insulated from the EV vehicle.  This is what I did with my EV.  The 
charger is setting in a insulated non-conductive box as well as the batteries.  
The EV body is not AC grounded.  Only the charger housing is AC grounded. 

 

The batteries are disconnected from the charger by a contactor when the charger 
is turn off.  Also the batteries are disconnected from the motor controller 
when the motor controller is shut down.  The motor controller is also place in 
a non-conductive housing.

 

To test out to see if you have complete circuit isolation, turn on the charger 
to charged the battery and see if you have any voltage between any of the 
battery terminals to the body of the vehicle.  My is 0 volts. 

 

Roland 


- Original Message - 

From: Peter Gabrielsson via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: David Nelson<mailto:gizm...@gmail.com> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:23 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?



The safety concern is that you have no protection ground so a ground fault
inside the vehicle may result in the body of your vehicle becoming live.

I've never seen an RV pedestal without ground though? I though that was
required for any outdoor outlets.

If this is a permanent thing you might want to drive a ground rod next to
the pedestal.





On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 5:07 PM, David Nelson via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
wrote:

> What are the safety issues of charging an OEM EV on 120V without the
> ground wire connected? I do have an EVSE which will do this if I put
> 100kohm resistors between hot-ground and neutral-ground which is what
> I have to do to charge with my portable-inverter generator. I'm not
> concerned with generator charging but charging from an RV pedestal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328<http://evalbum.com/1328>
> http://www.levforum.com<http://www.levforum.com/>
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV 
Correction:
 > If either the Line Wire (Hot) or a color conductor which will be black,
red

> > or blue has voltage that is different then the Neutral Wire (White), the
> the
> > GFI will detect this unbalance and will open up the circuit.
>

No, it is not voltage it is current.  If the current is not identical in
both conductors, then there is a 3rd leakage path which might be your body,
so it trips.
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread David Nelson via EV 
 Ok, I thought that might be the case. The RV pedestal should have
ground but I need the EVSE to not see it except through the two
100kohm resistors until the EVSE finishes its POST. This will set the
pilot signal to 20A. After that I can connect the ground wire. I will
try to find a TT-30P I can install a switch in to switch the ground
wire. This will allow me to charge my Kia Soul EV at 20A from 120V. If
I can't find something small enough I'll look for an inline switch of
some sort. I assume that the ground wire should be the same size as
the main conductors with an appropriate switch to go with it. I should
probably use a momentary-off switch for safety, too. That way I won't
forget to close the switch after the current setting is set.

Thanks,

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Roland <e...@msn.com> wrote:
> Hello Peter,
>
> In old installation that use no ground, you can either replace the circuit
> breaker with a Ground Fault Type or even install a Ground Fault Receptacle
> in the line between the panel circuit breaker and load.
>
> If either the Line Wire (Hot) or a color conductor which will be black, red
> or blue has voltage that is different then the Neutral Wire (White), the the
> GFI will detect this unbalance and will open up the circuit.
>
> In old install, we can according to the NEC, we can install a GFI receptacle
> on the first outlet from the circuit breaker on two wire circuits.  This
> will also protect the other receptacles down the line on this circuit.
>
> This GFI will still work with out a ground source.  You will not be able to
> test the receptacle by pushing the RED reset button.
>
> The only place the Neutral and Ground wire can be connected together is at
> the First Main Switch at a Service Entrance.  The Neutral and Ground wire
> shall remain isolated completely through the circuit until it reaches the
> First Disconnect Switch.  The ground wire is then connected to a ground rod
> only at the Service Switch Location.
>
> Another way is to build the EV with all the incoming AC circuits and Devices
> Double Insulated from the EV vehicle.  This is what I did with my EV.  The
> charger is setting in a insulated non-conductive box as well as the
> batteries.  The EV body is not AC grounded.  Only the charger housing is AC
> grounded.
>
> The batteries are disconnected from the charger by a contactor when the
> charger is turn off.  Also the batteries are disconnected from the motor
> controller when the motor controller is shut down.  The motor controller is
> also place in a non-conductive housing.
>
> To test out to see if you have complete circuit isolation, turn on the
> charger to charged the battery and see if you have any voltage between any
> of the battery terminals to the body of the vehicle.  My is 0 volts.
>
> Roland
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Peter Gabrielsson via EV
> To: David Nelson ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?
>
> The safety concern is that you have no protection ground so a ground fault
> inside the vehicle may result in the body of your vehicle becoming live.
>
> I've never seen an RV pedestal without ground though? I though that was
> required for any outdoor outlets.
>
> If this is a permanent thing you might want to drive a ground rod next to
> the pedestal.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 5:07 PM, David Nelson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
>
>> What are the safety issues of charging an OEM EV on 120V without the
>> ground wire connected? I do have an EVSE which will do this if I put
>> 100kohm resistors between hot-ground and neutral-ground which is what
>> I have to do to charge with my portable-inverter generator. I'm not
>> concerned with generator charging but charging from an RV pedestal.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> David D. Nelson
>> http://evalbum.com/1328
>> http://www.levforum.com
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
OEM EV is pretty broad.  What does their user manual say?

The ground is for your safety.  You can buy double insulated hand tools
that use no ground on 120VAC.  Is your OEMEV "double insulated?" If not it
is strcitly at your own risk.  If you are going to wing it, then I guess
you could poke around with a meter periodically.  Lot's of people consider
120VAC to be mostly benign.  I am not one of those.

So there is my free advise based on nearly no information.
What are the safety issues of charging an OEM EV on 120V without the
ground wire connected? I do have an EVSE which will do this if I put
100kohm resistors between hot-ground and neutral-ground which is what
I have to do to charge with my portable-inverter generator. I'm not
concerned with generator charging but charging from an RV pedestal.

Thanks,

--
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http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread David Nelson via EV 
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 6:23 PM, Michael Ross  wrote:
> OEM EV is pretty broad.  What does their user manual say?
>

That is true. I'll have to dig through the user manual and the shop
manual. I don't expect to find out anything about this in the user
manual. Especially when I couldn't get a straight answer from Kia
about whether there was a current limit built in to the on board
charger for 120VAC input voltage. They wanted to know how I was going
to tell the charger more than 12A was available even though I told
them I could get a level 1 EVSE that was capable. I can only test it
to 20A but I assume it could do up to 27.5A since it has a 6.6kW
charger so at 240V that would be 27.5A.

At least I can verify that a 2016 Kia Soul EV will charge at up to 20A
on 120VAC which can come in handy when traveling and the only outlet
available is a 5-20 or a TT-30.

Thanks,
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Re: [EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-06 Thread Peter Gabrielsson via EV 
The safety concern is that you have no protection ground so a ground fault
inside the vehicle may result in the body of your vehicle becoming live.

I've never seen an RV pedestal without ground though? I though that was
required for any outdoor outlets.

If this is a permanent thing you might want to drive a ground rod next to
the pedestal.





On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 5:07 PM, David Nelson via EV 
wrote:

> What are the safety issues of charging an OEM EV on 120V without the
> ground wire connected? I do have an EVSE which will do this if I put
> 100kohm resistors between hot-ground and neutral-ground which is what
> I have to do to charge with my portable-inverter generator. I'm not
> concerned with generator charging but charging from an RV pedestal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
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>


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[EVDL] OEM EV charging on 120V with no ground?

2015-10-05 Thread David Nelson via EV 
What are the safety issues of charging an OEM EV on 120V without the
ground wire connected? I do have an EVSE which will do this if I put
100kohm resistors between hot-ground and neutral-ground which is what
I have to do to charge with my portable-inverter generator. I'm not
concerned with generator charging but charging from an RV pedestal.

Thanks,

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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