Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[robert winfield via EV]

 That's very nice.i like traveling around town, and going on 1,100 mile trips 
and longer.more power to you.
where do you refuel on long trips?

On Friday, December 28, 2018, 1:04:37 AM EST, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Sorry if didn’t think my comments positive, though maybe it’s just not what 
you wanted to hear.

If you just want to know whether hydrogen “works”, that’s easy. My family is a 
primary source on that. We have three fuel cell electric cars in the family.

We get where we want to go.

But maybe it’s just alien invaders propelling the cars.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
>> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
>>  
> 
> Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read the 
> above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien invaders 
> could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make hydrogen work.
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Willie, The Las Vegas Water District had a hydrogen fuel cell project 
and you must know that aliens have already landed near us in Area 51. 
You may have inadvertently discerned the connection.


On 12/27/2018 5:24 PM, Willie via EV wrote:



Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read 
the above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien 
invaders could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make 
hydrogen work.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 28 Dec 2018 at 1:49, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> So, wasting untold millions in developing a new answer which is *proven* to be
> much worse deal all around, is silly and a boondoggle. I have no clue how you
> can't see that...


"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary 
depends on his not understanding it."  

 -- Upton Sinclair

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Willie via EV]

On 12/28/18 3:49 AM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Without subsidies and a nearby H2 filling station, you would not be driving 
fuel cell vehicles.
And besides, nobody claims H2 does not work.


Pardon me, Cor.  I should have said "work competitively".


On Dec 27, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:



Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read the above 
to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien invaders could be 
landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make hydrogen work.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

Hello Mark,

This is the type of thing us geeks seek.  Feed us data!!!  Here's an
example:

A friend has been captivated by the use of hydrogen in an ICE by a local
"genius"/entrepreneur.  He referred me to the guy's website at:
Victorypower.net.  His system uses tungsten and extremely high temperatures
to disassociate hydrogen from oxygen in water molecules.

I mentioned to him that if the claims he makes are true, Venture
Capitalists would be beating a path to his door.  I can list a whole lot of
companies that are no longer in existence that are just like this one and
had reasonably viable products except for...  I think my friend has drunk
the kool-aid and is on his way to getting burned or at least his cash...

Appreciate the reference.


On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 7:59 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
>
> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
> it's easy to read and not very long. (You also have to wonder why a
> "research" article is available at no charge.)
>
> The article is purely speculative with not a single backed-up fact. This
> is fine, but it needs to be taken for what it is.
>
> Actually, it is nearly devoid of facts regarding BEV and FCEV efficiency
> and completely devoid of any information on production of hydrogen from
> non fossil fuel sources. The majority of statements with numbers also
> contains words like "could", "might", "possibly".
>
> The closest statements I found to presenting efficiency facts are:
>
> Battery electric vehicles exhibit higher overall fuel efficiency as long
> as they are not too heavy due to large battery sizes
> ...
> Based on their entire life cycles, FCEVs achieve very low CO2 emissions,
> in part because they don’t require large batteries whose production is
> energy and resource intensive.
> ...
> Currently, each ton of CO2 saved through FCEVs is estimated to cost more
> than $1,500...
>
> I think it's safe to say that, so far, we do not have any evidence that
> technology will exist for efficiently producing hydrogen from non fossil
> fuel sources.
>
> Peri
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 27-Dec-18 1:34:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure
>
> >Sure.
> >
> >“Hydrogen: The next wave for electric vehicles?”
> >
> >By Bernd Heid, Martin Linder, Anna Orthofer, Marcus Wilthaner
> >
> >I already posted the date.
> >
> >I haven’t read the article yet, so you’ll have to read it yourself or
> wait until I have a chance.
> >
> >As far as the 2011 study, I only have a presentation from a DOE HTAC
> meeting by Sandy Thomas, given in February, 2011.
> >
> >- Mark
> >
> >Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> >>  On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the
> summary and snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That
> would help.
> >>
> >>  Peri
> >>
> >>  -- Original Message --
> >>  From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
> >>  To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >>  Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> >>  Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
> >>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure
> >>
> >>>  Hi Willie,
> >>>
> >>>  Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey
> & Co.
> >>>
> >>>  The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the
> publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am
> not sure that attachments can be posted to this list.
> >>>
> >>>  I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.
> >>>
> >>>  I’ve not read either one yet.
> >>>
> >>>  Hope this helps.
> >>>
> >>>  - Mark
> >>>
> >>>  Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >>>
> >>>>  On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>  On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> >>>>>  Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at
> costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper,
> by 3 to 1.
&g

Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Without subsidies and a nearby H2 filling station, you would not be driving 
fuel cell vehicles.
And besides, nobody claims H2 does not work.
Toyota would not have released a car if it did not work.
It is just that it is an answer seeking for a problem to solve, because that 
answer is what some influential people want to see.
So, now they are trying to convince the regulators and govts that there is a 
problem that this answer is needed for.
Doing so, damages the *real* better answer, which leads to much better 
efficiency and lower emissions.
Also, that other answer is already successful in the market.
So, wasting untold millions in developing a new answer which is *proven* to be 
much worse deal all around, is silly and a boondoggle.
I have no clue how you can’t see that – either you have difficulty with Physics 
or you have some hidden interest in making H2 great, despite that it is only 
the claim that makes it great, not any facts. Reminds me of a certain 
politician that I will certainly *not* name here.

Let’s kill the bandwidth consumption for H2 right now.
Thanks.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 10:04 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

Sorry if didn’t think my comments positive, though maybe it’s just not what you 
wanted to hear.

If you just want to know whether hydrogen “works”, that’s easy. My family is a 
primary source on that. We have three fuel cell electric cars in the family.

We get where we want to go.

But maybe it’s just alien invaders propelling the cars.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
>> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
>>  
> 
> Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read the 
> above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien invaders 
> could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make hydrogen work.
> ___
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Sorry if didn’t think my comments positive, though maybe it’s just not what you 
wanted to hear.

If you just want to know whether hydrogen “works”, that’s easy. My family is a 
primary source on that. We have three fuel cell electric cars in the family.

We get where we want to go.

But maybe it’s just alien invaders propelling the cars.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
>> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
>>  
> 
> Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read the 
> above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien invaders 
> could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make hydrogen work.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

The article was purported to be none of those things you mention, but about 
cost of infrastructure. Is that not the case?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 4:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
> it's easy to read and not very long. (You also have to wonder why a 
> "research" article is available at no charge.)
> 
> The article is purely speculative with not a single backed-up fact. This is 
> fine, but it needs to be taken for what it is.
> 
> Actually, it is nearly devoid of facts regarding BEV and FCEV efficiency and 
> completely devoid of any information on production of hydrogen from non 
> fossil fuel sources. The majority of statements with numbers also contains 
> words like "could", "might", "possibly".
> 
> The closest statements I found to presenting efficiency facts are:
> 
> Battery electric vehicles exhibit higher overall fuel efficiency as long as 
> they are not too heavy due to large battery sizes
> 
> Based on their entire life cycles, FCEVs achieve very low CO2 emissions, in 
> part because they don’t require large batteries whose production is energy 
> and resource intensive.
> 
> Currently, each ton of CO2 saved through FCEVs is estimated to cost more than 
> $1,500...
> 
> I think it's safe to say that, so far, we do not have any evidence that 
> technology will exist for efficiently producing hydrogen from non fossil fuel 
> sources.
> 
> Peri
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message ------
> From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 27-Dec-18 1:34:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure
> 

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Rod Hower via EV]

 "Alien 
invaders could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make 
hydrogen work."In our current situation of the shutdown, I'm sure aliens could 
explain how this works and receive strong support!

On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎27‎, ‎2018‎ ‎08‎:‎24‎:‎55‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EST, Willie via 
EV  wrote:  
 
 

On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
> https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
>  

Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read 
the above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien 
invaders could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make 
hydrogen work.
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Willie via EV]

On 12/27/18 6:59 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles 


Well..  I thought Mark had some positive comment to make.  I read 
the above to be just wild unsubstantiated conjecture/opinion. Alien 
invaders could be landing tomorrow.  Maybe they will tell us how to make 
hydrogen work.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Mark, thanks for the reference. I just read the article
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hydrogen-the-next-wave-for-electric-vehicles
it's easy to read and not very long. (You also have to wonder why a 
"research" article is available at no charge.)


The article is purely speculative with not a single backed-up fact. This 
is fine, but it needs to be taken for what it is.


Actually, it is nearly devoid of facts regarding BEV and FCEV efficiency 
and completely devoid of any information on production of hydrogen from 
non fossil fuel sources. The majority of statements with numbers also 
contains words like "could", "might", "possibly".


The closest statements I found to presenting efficiency facts are:

Battery electric vehicles exhibit higher overall fuel efficiency as long 
as they are not too heavy due to large battery sizes

...
Based on their entire life cycles, FCEVs achieve very low CO2 emissions, 
in part because they don’t require large batteries whose production is 
energy and resource intensive.

...
Currently, each ton of CO2 saved through FCEVs is estimated to cost more 
than $1,500...


I think it's safe to say that, so far, we do not have any evidence that 
technology will exist for efficiently producing hydrogen from non fossil 
fuel sources.


Peri



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 27-Dec-18 1:34:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


Sure.

“Hydrogen: The next wave for electric vehicles?”

By Bernd Heid, Martin Linder, Anna Orthofer, Marcus Wilthaner

I already posted the date.

I haven’t read the article yet, so you’ll have to read it yourself or wait 
until I have a chance.

As far as the 2011 study, I only have a presentation from a DOE HTAC meeting by 
Sandy Thomas, given in February, 2011.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

 Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the summary and 
snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That would help.

 Peri

 -- Original Message --
 From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
 Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


 Hi Willie,

 Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co.

 The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am not 
sure that attachments can be posted to this list.

 I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.

 I’ve not read either one yet.

 Hope this helps.

 - Mark

 Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:




 On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


 That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Sure.

“Hydrogen: The next wave for electric vehicles?”

By Bernd Heid, Martin Linder, Anna Orthofer, Marcus Wilthaner

I already posted the date.

I haven’t read the article yet, so you’ll have to read it yourself or wait 
until I have a chance.

As far as the 2011 study, I only have a presentation from a DOE HTAC meeting by 
Sandy Thomas, given in February, 2011.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the summary 
> and snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That would help.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
> Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure
> 
>> Hi Willie,
>> 
>> Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co.
>> 
>> The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
>> publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am 
>> not sure that attachments can be posted to this list.
>> 
>> I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.
>> 
>> I’ve not read either one yet.
>> 
>> Hope this helps.
>> 
>> - Mark
>> 
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>> 
>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>>>> Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
>>>> scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 
>>>> 1.
>>> 
>>> That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

From what I’ve been told, it looked at the cost of complete battery 
electrification vs. complete electrification with hydrogen. 

Now, in my view either one would be unwise, but that comparison seems to offer 
a good look at costs at scale.  

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 7:39 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> 
>> But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
>> hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1. 
> 
> Cheaper than what?
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Mark, can you post the title, author(s), pub date, and include the 
summary and snips of any relevant findings that address your claim? That 
would help.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 10:51:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


Hi Willie,

Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co.

The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am not 
sure that attachments can be posted to this list.

I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.

I’ve not read either one yet.

Hope this helps.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


 On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:




 On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


 That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Hi Willie,

Apparently there was a study in 2011 and another in 2017 by McKinsey & Co. 

The 2017 study was the subject of an article in November, 2017 in the 
publication “Automotive and Assembly”. I was just sent a copy of it, but am not 
sure that attachments can be posted to this list.

I was also sent a presentation to the DOE on the 2011 McKinsey study.

I’ve not read either one yet.

Hope this helps.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
>> scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.
> 
> That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I think we have extensively re-hashed the very reason that Hydrogen is OT for 
this list.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Rod Hower via EV
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 8:40 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Peri Hartman
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

 "I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water"
I believe that study is the same one that demonstrates the superior efficiency 
of Hydrogen powered submarines?
On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎27‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎47‎:‎17‎ ‎AM‎ ‎EST, Peri 
Hartman via EV  wrote:  
 
 I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water, after spending several years of practice 
encouraging maturity of specialized tissues. We have a goal for gene 
modification so that, in the near future, all of us will have this 
ability.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 7:39:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

>On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>
>>  But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
>>  hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.
>
>Cheaper than what?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Rod Hower via EV]

 "I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water"
I believe that study is the same one that demonstrates the superior efficiency 
of Hydrogen powered submarines?
On ‎Thursday‎, ‎December‎ ‎27‎, ‎2018‎ ‎10‎:‎47‎:‎17‎ ‎AM‎ ‎EST, Peri 
Hartman via EV  wrote:  
 
 I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water, after spending several years of practice 
encouraging maturity of specialized tissues. We have a goal for gene 
modification so that, in the near future, all of us will have this 
ability.
Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 7:39:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

>On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>
>>  But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
>>  hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.
>
>Cheaper than what?
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I understand a recent study has shown some people are born with the 
ability to breath under water, after spending several years of practice 
encouraging maturity of specialized tissues. We have a goal for gene 
modification so that, in the near future, all of us will have this 
ability.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 27-Dec-18 7:39:15 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure


On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:


 But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
 hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


Cheaper than what?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Thomas Keenan via EV]

Probably a hydrogen industry claim (or a sponsored claim - sponsorships can be 
buried fairly deep).  

Kind of like cigarette manufacturers 50 years ago paying doctors, dentists, and 
nurses to say cigarettes were good for your health - sequere pecuniam.


> On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
>> scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.
> 
> That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 26 Dec 2018 at 17:02, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> But when you look at costs at scale, I understand a recent study showed
> hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1. 

Cheaper than what?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Willie via EV]

On 12/26/18 7:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.


That astonishing claim DEMANDS a citation.

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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Rod Hower via EV]

 "To have a large number of businesses supporting an unknown technology makes 
me suspicious."  That is the best explanation for hydrogen.  

On ‎Wednesday‎, ‎December‎ ‎26‎, ‎2018‎ ‎08‎:‎07‎:‎43‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EST, Mark 
Abramowitz via EV  wrote:  
 
 Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 26, 2018, at 2:50 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> To be clear, I find fuel cells fascinating technology. I don't know how much 
> potential improvement is possible and I support continuing research to find 
> out.
> 
> That's different from supporting a build out of a hydrogen infrastructure. 
> There is significant cost to do so and, to be effective, it will probably 
> need to be as extensive as the current fueling infrastructure. I suppose one 
> could argue that such infrastructure partially exists already, considering 
> the land and some structures would be repurposed. But that's only part of the 
> cost. We still need to deal with new storage tanks and delivery systems from 
> tank to vehicle. Given that hydrogen is hard to contain and that the current 
> hydrogen infrastructure is essentially zero, this is a huge expense.
> 
> Second, the only method I know to produce hydrogen from non fossil fuel is by 
> cracking water. It's my understanding that it is substantially more efficient 
> to just use the electricity directly to charge a battery. Perhaps, if you 
> take into account the production of the battery you might show that in some 
> cases the fuel cell comes out ahead. But that's with last year's battery 
> technology. Enough progress is being made that I think such arguments will be 
> false if not already false.
> 
> To have a large number of businesses supporting an unknown technology makes 
> me suspicious. This is not an altruistic effort. Sure, support the build out 
> now. Get government money to help. Once all this is built, it will be 
> supplied with non fossil fuel hydrogen. Or not. If not, is that 
> infrastructure just going to sit there? Ha. The pressure to use it, with 
> hydrogen from natural gas, will be unsurmountable. Goals will be crushed and 
> the petrol industry will win.
> 
> So, let's support research. But no build out until we have reasonable 
> evidence of a technology to efficiently produce hydrogen in a sustainable way.
> 
> Peri
> 
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Re: [EVDL] fear of hydrogen infrastructure

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Certainly good points about infrastructure. But when you look at costs at 
scale, I understand a recent study showed hydrogen to be cheaper, by 3 to 1.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 26, 2018, at 2:50 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> To be clear, I find fuel cells fascinating technology. I don't know how much 
> potential improvement is possible and I support continuing research to find 
> out.
> 
> That's different from supporting a build out of a hydrogen infrastructure. 
> There is significant cost to do so and, to be effective, it will probably 
> need to be as extensive as the current fueling infrastructure. I suppose one 
> could argue that such infrastructure partially exists already, considering 
> the land and some structures would be repurposed. But that's only part of the 
> cost. We still need to deal with new storage tanks and delivery systems from 
> tank to vehicle. Given that hydrogen is hard to contain and that the current 
> hydrogen infrastructure is essentially zero, this is a huge expense.
> 
> Second, the only method I know to produce hydrogen from non fossil fuel is by 
> cracking water. It's my understanding that it is substantially more efficient 
> to just use the electricity directly to charge a battery. Perhaps, if you 
> take into account the production of the battery you might show that in some 
> cases the fuel cell comes out ahead. But that's with last year's battery 
> technology. Enough progress is being made that I think such arguments will be 
> false if not already false.
> 
> To have a large number of businesses supporting an unknown technology makes 
> me suspicious. This is not an altruistic effort. Sure, support the build out 
> now. Get government money to help. Once all this is built, it will be 
> supplied with non fossil fuel hydrogen. Or not. If not, is that 
> infrastructure just going to sit there? Ha. The pressure to use it, with 
> hydrogen from natural gas, will be unsurmountable. Goals will be crushed and 
> the petrol industry will win.
> 
> So, let's support research. But no build out until we have reasonable 
> evidence of a technology to efficiently produce hydrogen in a sustainable way.
> 
> Peri
> 
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