Re: [EVDL] prius as generator (two-phase 240 VAC)

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

A simple autotransformer can convert 240V single phase into split phase.  
Technically the transformer only has to be rated for the maximum difference in 
power between the two legs, however even 5kVA autotransformers are relatively 
cheap and only weigh about 30 pounds.
Note: an autotransformer can also convert 120V single phase to 240v split phase.

Most off-grip inverters that produce split phase power employ an 
autotransformer either built in or as an external accessory.

July 31, 2020 10:08 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:

> I was talking about 240V split phase which is the standard in the USA. ANd
> split phase is the same as two-phase (180 degrees apart).
> 
> The inverter in question did not say it could do 230v (or 240 v) split
> phase or two phase and so wont work with standard house wiring unless a big
> heavy split phase 60 Hz transformer is also used.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:47 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
>> Back the when GE and Westinghouse were battling AC didn’t mean
>> three-phase AC. Two-phase, where the phases were 90 degrees apart, was an
>> easier system to analyze and generate. The Westinghouse generators at
>> Niagara Falls, for example, produced two-phase. I doubt you will find many
>> Two Phase service nowadays though.
>> 
>> On Thursday, July 30, 2020, 12:43:19 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> On 30 Jul 2020 at 10:58, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>> 
>> no mention of 240 VAC two phase?
>> 
>> I'm not an EE, but I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere, at
>> least
>> not as commercial power. The US does have 240v split phase, but that's
>> single phase.
>> 
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> 
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> The only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world
>> of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
>> 
>> -- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator (two-phase 240 VAC)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I was talking about 240V split phase which is the standard in the USA.  ANd
split phase is the same as two-phase (180 degrees apart).


No; split phase is not the same as 2-phase.

Split phase is just single-phase 240v with a center-tap. You get 120v 
each side of the center tap, and 240v across the ends. It usually comes 
from a transformer with a center tap.


Two-phase has two equal voltages that are phase-shifted 90 deg. from 
each other. If they each have a common neutral and you have 120v between 
neutral and each phase, then you get 120 x sqrt(2) = 170v between the 
ends (not 240v).


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator (two-phase 240 VAC)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I was talking about 240V split phase which is the standard in the USA.  ANd
split phase is the same as two-phase (180 degrees apart).

The inverter in question did not say it could do 230v (or 240 v)  split
phase or two phase and so wont work with standard house wiring unless a big
heavy split phase 60 Hz transformer is also used.

Bob

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:47 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

>  Back the when GE and Westinghouse were battling AC didn’t mean
> three-phase AC. Two-phase, where the phases were 90 degrees apart, was an
> easier system to analyze and generate. The Westinghouse generators at
> Niagara Falls, for example, produced two-phase. I doubt you will find many
> Two Phase service nowadays though.
>
> On Thursday, July 30, 2020, 12:43:19 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV
>  wrote:
>
>  On 30 Jul 2020 at 10:58, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > no mention of 240 VAC two phase?
>
> I'm not an EE, but I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere, at
> least
> not as commercial power.  The US does have 240v split phase, but that's
> single phase.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> The only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world
> of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
>
>   -- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator (Lower angle for dual orthogonal arrays)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

That is too steep.  I'm pretty sure that I did a detail study on PV watts
and concluded that panels should be at lower angles the further from south
that they are.  If you put solar panels to the SE and another set in
parallel to the Southwest (especially if there are trees in the middle that
limit each one to mostly morning and afternoon sun, then I am sure the
lower angle does better because it captures more summer sun to make up for
what it misses in the winter due to the lower angle.

Further, do not worry about over powering the inverter on the best
brightest mid-days since the MPPT controller will still only max at its
rated power.  Yes, you will be loosing some peak sun on those best days,
but the lower angle will give more power on less than 100% perfect days
because of the longer production.  In fact, many installers back east will
install 120% of solar panels on an inverter because that will keep it
closer to 100% rating for the majority of days that are only 80% as good as
the best clearest days.

Since solar panels are cheaper than inverters, this makes sense.

Bob

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:41 PM Haudy Kazemi  wrote:

> Willie, thanks for the details. I suggest trying again but this time, in
> addition to the true east/west orientation, also put them 90 degrees
> apart from each other at their peaks. In other words, each should be at 45
> degree angles to the ground. This will limit total illumination as the sun
> cannot shine squarely on two sides at once. It should also flatten the
> daily power curve from approximately 10a to 4p (varies by day length). Some
> solar energy will still be left uncaptured around noon due inverter
> clipping on bright days, but the inverter will run at full capacity longer.
> Enphase has a whitepaper discussing DC:AC ratios.
>
> Thinly overcast days may also produce better than you may first guess. The
> high DC/AC ratio can partially compensate for even, but lower intensity
> light. PV cells with low shunt resistance do better in low light.
>
> https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/shunt-resistance
>
> https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/impact-of-both-series-and-shunt-resistance
>
>
> Bob, I do not believe diode isolation is needed, at least if one is using
> exactly 2 parallel strings made up of commercial modules which come with
> built-in bypass diodes. If using more than 2 parallel strings, things are
> different. Also, designs with >2 parallel strings will definitely need
> per-string fusing to prevent current from 2 good strings from overloading
> the wires of a failed 3rd string if that 3rd string somehow shorts out the
> other 2.
>
> Last, user bcroe from the solarpaneltalk.com forum website has an
> east/west array:
>
> https://s93.photobucket.com/user/bcroe/library/ENERGY%2520CONSERVATION/East%2520West%2520Facing%2520Solar%2520Array#
> !
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 09:26 Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> True, south always better.  But the point is that then you need an
>> inverter
>> with twice the capacity..
>> The topic being discussed is being able to share an inverter with
>> additional panels facing a different direction.
>>
>> Key points:  1) when not facing due south, panels should be less tilted
>> since the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW, having flatter panels
>> gets more sun time in the middle of the day.
>> 2) Even if both panels are quite illuminated at the same time, the MPPT
>> inverter will not be overloaded.  It will always adjust to max power and
>> no
>> more.  SO having some overlap is OK.
>> 3) In my case, my SE panels begin to be shaded by 2 PM, so I installed
>> another set of panels facing SW that begin to be unshaded about the same
>> time,
>> 4) You must parallel them with diode isolation.
>>
>> Back to #1, remember that even FLAT panels will produce 80% annual totals
>> of the ideal south panels.  They are terrible in the winter but make up
>> for
>> it with the double high-sun in the summer.  Though do not do it, they will
>> collect dust and cant wash off in the rain.  Im just makiong the point
>> that
>> the only placew where you tilt to latitude is due south.  Other
>> directions,
>> less tilt is better.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > FWIW I did some simulations using PVWatts 2 a while back to see if it
>> made
>> > sense to have a panel facing east and another facing west, like you
>> > describe(tilted to match latitude).  I was hoping this would result in a
>> > flatter power output through the day.  Turned out that in almost all
>> cases
>> > it was better off to have both panels facing south(tilted to match
>> > latitude).
>> > More power across the whole day and obviously more daily energy
>> produced.
>> >
>> > July 29, 2020 6:55 PM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>> > > Yes. With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels
>> make a
>> > near equilateral triangle
>> > > 

Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Luke Scharf via EV]

This is a really interesting discussion, and has provided a lot of
additional considerations for my paper-design work -- which makes the
puzzle all the more interesting.

Thank you!

-Luke


On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 PM Haudy Kazemi via EV 
wrote:

> Willie, thanks for the details. I suggest trying again but this time, in
> addition to the true east/west orientation, also put them 90 degrees apart
> from each other at their peaks. In other words, each should be at 45 degree
> angles to the ground. This will limit total illumination as the sun cannot
> shine squarely on two sides at once. It should also flatten the daily power
> curve from approximately 10a to 4p (varies by day length). Some solar
> energy will still be left uncaptured around noon due inverter clipping on
> bright days, but the inverter will run at full capacity longer. Enphase has
> a whitepaper discussing DC:AC ratios.
>
> Thinly overcast days may also produce better than you may first guess. The
> high DC/AC ratio can partially compensate for even, but lower intensity
> light. PV cells with low shunt resistance do better in low light.
>
> https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/shunt-resistance
>
> https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/impact-of-both-series-and-shunt-resistance
>
>
> Bob, I do not believe diode isolation is needed, at least if one is using
> exactly 2 parallel strings made up of commercial modules which come with
> built-in bypass diodes. If using more than 2 parallel strings, things are
> different. Also, designs with >2 parallel strings will definitely need
> per-string fusing to prevent current from 2 good strings from overloading
> the wires of a failed 3rd string if that 3rd string somehow shorts out the
> other 2.
>
> Last, user bcroe from the solarpaneltalk.com forum website has an
> east/west
> array:
>
> https://s93.photobucket.com/user/bcroe/library/ENERGY%2520CONSERVATION/East%2520West%2520Facing%2520Solar%2520Array#
> !
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 09:26 Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > True, south always better.  But the point is that then you need an
> inverter
> > with twice the capacity..
> > The topic being discussed is being able to share an inverter with
> > additional panels facing a different direction.
> >
> > Key points:  1) when not facing due south, panels should be less tilted
> > since the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW, having flatter panels
> > gets more sun time in the middle of the day.
> > 2) Even if both panels are quite illuminated at the same time, the MPPT
> > inverter will not be overloaded.  It will always adjust to max power and
> no
> > more.  SO having some overlap is OK.
> > 3) In my case, my SE panels begin to be shaded by 2 PM, so I installed
> > another set of panels facing SW that begin to be unshaded about the same
> > time,
> > 4) You must parallel them with diode isolation.
> >
> > Back to #1, remember that even FLAT panels will produce 80% annual totals
> > of the ideal south panels.  They are terrible in the winter but make up
> for
> > it with the double high-sun in the summer.  Though do not do it, they
> will
> > collect dust and cant wash off in the rain.  Im just makiong the point
> that
> > the only placew where you tilt to latitude is due south.  Other
> directions,
> > less tilt is better.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > FWIW I did some simulations using PVWatts 2 a while back to see if it
> > made
> > > sense to have a panel facing east and another facing west, like you
> > > describe(tilted to match latitude).  I was hoping this would result in
> a
> > > flatter power output through the day.  Turned out that in almost all
> > cases
> > > it was better off to have both panels facing south(tilted to match
> > > latitude).
> > > More power across the whole day and obviously more daily energy
> produced.
> > >
> > > July 29, 2020 6:55 PM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
> > > > Yes. With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels
> make
> > a
> > > near equilateral triangle
> > > > with the ground. I'm wondering if I might see better results by
> > reducing
> > > that angle between panels.
> > > >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

Willie, thanks for the details. I suggest trying again but this time, in
addition to the true east/west orientation, also put them 90 degrees apart
from each other at their peaks. In other words, each should be at 45 degree
angles to the ground. This will limit total illumination as the sun cannot
shine squarely on two sides at once. It should also flatten the daily power
curve from approximately 10a to 4p (varies by day length). Some solar
energy will still be left uncaptured around noon due inverter clipping on
bright days, but the inverter will run at full capacity longer. Enphase has
a whitepaper discussing DC:AC ratios.

Thinly overcast days may also produce better than you may first guess. The
high DC/AC ratio can partially compensate for even, but lower intensity
light. PV cells with low shunt resistance do better in low light.

https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/shunt-resistance
https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/impact-of-both-series-and-shunt-resistance


Bob, I do not believe diode isolation is needed, at least if one is using
exactly 2 parallel strings made up of commercial modules which come with
built-in bypass diodes. If using more than 2 parallel strings, things are
different. Also, designs with >2 parallel strings will definitely need
per-string fusing to prevent current from 2 good strings from overloading
the wires of a failed 3rd string if that 3rd string somehow shorts out the
other 2.

Last, user bcroe from the solarpaneltalk.com forum website has an east/west
array:
https://s93.photobucket.com/user/bcroe/library/ENERGY%2520CONSERVATION/East%2520West%2520Facing%2520Solar%2520Array#
!


On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 09:26 Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> True, south always better.  But the point is that then you need an inverter
> with twice the capacity..
> The topic being discussed is being able to share an inverter with
> additional panels facing a different direction.
>
> Key points:  1) when not facing due south, panels should be less tilted
> since the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW, having flatter panels
> gets more sun time in the middle of the day.
> 2) Even if both panels are quite illuminated at the same time, the MPPT
> inverter will not be overloaded.  It will always adjust to max power and no
> more.  SO having some overlap is OK.
> 3) In my case, my SE panels begin to be shaded by 2 PM, so I installed
> another set of panels facing SW that begin to be unshaded about the same
> time,
> 4) You must parallel them with diode isolation.
>
> Back to #1, remember that even FLAT panels will produce 80% annual totals
> of the ideal south panels.  They are terrible in the winter but make up for
> it with the double high-sun in the summer.  Though do not do it, they will
> collect dust and cant wash off in the rain.  Im just makiong the point that
> the only placew where you tilt to latitude is due south.  Other directions,
> less tilt is better.
>
> Bob
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV  >
> wrote:
>
> > FWIW I did some simulations using PVWatts 2 a while back to see if it
> made
> > sense to have a panel facing east and another facing west, like you
> > describe(tilted to match latitude).  I was hoping this would result in a
> > flatter power output through the day.  Turned out that in almost all
> cases
> > it was better off to have both panels facing south(tilted to match
> > latitude).
> > More power across the whole day and obviously more daily energy produced.
> >
> > July 29, 2020 6:55 PM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
> > > Yes. With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels make
> a
> > near equilateral triangle
> > > with the ground. I'm wondering if I might see better results by
> reducing
> > that angle between panels.
> > >
>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/30/20 2:45 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 12:51 Willie via EV  wrote:




On 7/30/20 9:29 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Thu Jul 30 09:49:15 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

On 7/30/20 7:03 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:

Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?




https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-3kW-24V-Any-Grid-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverer-p/phocos-psw-h-3kw-230-24v.htm




https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-Any-Grid-5kW-48V-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverter-p/phocos-psw-h-5kw-230-48v.htm


I'll be interested once it's proven that you can use a battery pack for

the PV input, AND not have a 48V battery pack attached.

I'd look at the Delta first.  It's cheaper and immediately available.
In addition, there is a great deal of uncertainty as to exactly what it
wants for a battery; it was designed for a not available Tesla battery.

The recent use has been just as a straightforward grid tie inverter.
The seller has started advertising that it will produce grid down PV
power without a battery.  I've tested just a little but not yet had
success.



I am not convinced from a skim through the
SolarCity H6 manual that this inverter can supply AC output power when
there is no grid, and simultaneously no battery. Only a few inverters can
pull off that balancing act. SMA has one that does it via the Secure Power
Supply feature, and Enphase's IQ8 is supposed to be another.

Most likely the inverter can operate without a battery if it is dumping
power on the grid. Adding the battery gives the inverter a place to source
and dump power that at the time it is needed, that the solar cannot
provide, and the loads cannot use.


I am also not convinced.  A recent test failed.  I will test more but I 
am going on the word of the seller who claims it is so.  However, the 
seller has been silent on the details of his experiments.


The SMA, I think, is of little use.  Only ~1500 watts at 120vac.

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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[paul dove via EV]

 Back the when GE and Westinghouse were battling AC didn’t mean three-phase AC. 
Two-phase, where the phases were 90 degrees apart, was an easier system to 
analyze and generate. The Westinghouse generators at Niagara Falls, for 
example, produced two-phase. I doubt you will find many Two Phase service 
nowadays though.

On Thursday, July 30, 2020, 12:43:19 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 30 Jul 2020 at 10:58, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> no mention of 240 VAC two phase?

I'm not an EE, but I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere, at least 
not as commercial power.  The US does have 240v split phase, but that's 
single phase.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    The only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world
    of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.

                      -- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 12:51 Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/30/20 9:29 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> > On Thu Jul 30 09:49:15 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >> On 7/30/20 7:03 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
> >>> Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?
> >>
> >>
> https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-3kW-24V-Any-Grid-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverer-p/phocos-psw-h-3kw-230-24v.htm
> >>
> >>
> https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-Any-Grid-5kW-48V-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverter-p/phocos-psw-h-5kw-230-48v.htm
> >
> > I'll be interested once it's proven that you can use a battery pack for
> the PV input, AND not have a 48V battery pack attached.
>
> I'd look at the Delta first.  It's cheaper and immediately available.
> In addition, there is a great deal of uncertainty as to exactly what it
> wants for a battery; it was designed for a not available Tesla battery.
>
> The recent use has been just as a straightforward grid tie inverter.
> The seller has started advertising that it will produce grid down PV
> power without a battery.  I've tested just a little but not yet had
> success.
>

I am not convinced from a skim through the
SolarCity H6 manual that this inverter can supply AC output power when
there is no grid, and simultaneously no battery. Only a few inverters can
pull off that balancing act. SMA has one that does it via the Secure Power
Supply feature, and Enphase's IQ8 is supposed to be another.

Most likely the inverter can operate without a battery if it is dumping
power on the grid. Adding the battery gives the inverter a place to source
and dump power that at the time it is needed, that the solar cannot
provide, and the loads cannot use.

>
---
I saw this on  https://plugoutpower.com/f/best-uses-for-the-plugout

"A PlugOut Prius can produce about 8kwh per gallon of gasoline.
..  That's about half to 2/3 the cost of mechanical generators."

That means they claim by using a direct high voltage battery connection to
a Prius, they can achieve around 24% thermal efficiency assuming 33
kWh/gallon is the energy content of gasoline, and deliver up to 3 or 5
kW. Regular
gensets are around 14-15% thermal efficiency. Energy path on Prius: ICE ->
MG1 (15 kW minimum) -> ~200-250v traction battery (or skipped when engine
is running) -> inverter outputing 240v AC -> autotransformer to split and
balance two 120v phases.

A Gen 4 Prius ICE is rated at 40% thermal efficiency. It seems plausible
that one can obtain the results claimed if each step operates at 90%.
40x(0.9^4)=26.2

https://priuschat.com/threads/mg2-and-mg1-electric-motor-information.47576/

https://priuschat.com/threads/how-many-watts-is-mg1-in-g3.211194/

https://shop.pkys.com/split-phase-inverter.html

PlugOut Power is a rebranding/of ConVerdant for anyone who remembered their
earlier incarnation.

---
Thread that includes discussion using the SolarCity H6 with a Prius. Also a
comment on efficiency of the solution they have been using.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/will-solarcity-h6-work-in-a-rogue-off-grid-setup.182766/

Quote from User 'CoinHead':
TinMan0023 said: ↑


Problem with the Prius Battery as Solar is the MPPT tries to moderate the
V/A ratios for efficiency and I don’t think that will work.

How is it working for you? I might be wrong...

"Well it's not really working that well with the H6 but the Prius works
great with the midnight classic charge controller on my 48 volt system. And
when I say great I mean as long as I'm not using more than the charge
controller can produce there's no problem. I set up a custom wind chart for
it to follow. But as soon as it goes to bulk mode because the demand is
higher than the charge controller can produce then the charge controller
will kick off and on cycling. most of the time this cycling is enough to
bring it back up once the load is removed but sometimes I have to reduce
the voltage output in the charger settings so that it more closely matches
the battery voltage and goes back to absorb. Then I can raise voltage
setpoint a little at a time over the next 10 seconds and it does fine.
Pretty but it doesn't cycle at all because I know that at night when I'm
running off the Prius I shouldn't use more than 2500 watts. I've been doing
it now for 6 months 16 hours every night. Soon I'll have my lithium
batteries home and set up and I won't be running the Prius anymore but dang
it sure has been a nice quiet powerful generator. And one gallon for 16
hours has been amazing compared to the 2 gallons the little Honda 2k
inverter generator needed.

With the H6 it seems to me that it wouldn't be able to do any mppt sweep
because as it put a load on the source it would max itself out before it
found the maximum power point. Makes sense to me it should just stay there
sucking 6000 Watts out of the Prius happily. But then there's that dang arc
fault shut down. Can't I just take a pair of pliers to the arc fault
detection circuit 

Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 30 Jul 2020 at 10:58, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:


no mention of 240 VAC two phase?


I'm not an EE, but I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere, at least
not as commercial power.  The US does have 240v split phase, but that's
single phase.


I don't think 2-phase power is distributed in the US; but it is still 
widely used to power motors. The "permanent split capacitor" motor in 
your furnace, A/C or refrigerator is in fact a 2-phase motor, where the 
second phase is produced by a capacitor in series with the AC line. The 
current in a capacitor is 90 deg. phase-shifted from its voltage, which 
provides the second phase.


Such motors are smaller, lighter, cheaper, more efficient, and smoother 
than single-phase motors. It's a bit like comparing a 1-cylinder to a 
2-cylinder ICE engine; the latter is much better.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/30/20 9:29 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Thu Jul 30 09:49:15 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

On 7/30/20 7:03 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:

Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?


https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-3kW-24V-Any-Grid-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverer-p/phocos-psw-h-3kw-230-24v.htm

https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-Any-Grid-5kW-48V-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverter-p/phocos-psw-h-5kw-230-48v.htm


I'll be interested once it's proven that you can use a battery pack for the PV 
input, AND not have a 48V battery pack attached.


I'd look at the Delta first.  It's cheaper and immediately available. 
In addition, there is a great deal of uncertainty as to exactly what it 
wants for a battery; it was designed for a not available Tesla battery.


The recent use has been just as a straightforward grid tie inverter. 
The seller has started advertising that it will produce grid down PV 
power without a battery.  I've tested just a little but not yet had success.


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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 30 Jul 2020 at 10:58, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> no mention of 240 VAC two phase?

I'm not an EE, but I don't think that such a thing exists anywhere, at least 
not as commercial power.  The US does have 240v split phase, but that's 
single phase.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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   -- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Jul 30 09:49:15 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>On 7/30/20 7:03 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:
>> Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?
>
>https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-3kW-24V-Any-Grid-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverer-p/phocos-psw-h-3kw-230-24v.htm
>
>https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-Any-Grid-5kW-48V-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverter-p/phocos-psw-h-5kw-230-48v.htm

I'll be interested once it's proven that you can use a battery pack for the PV 
input, AND not have a 48V battery pack attached.


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/30/20 7:03 AM, Robert Bruninga wrote:

Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?
Bob

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 12:44 PM Willie via EV > wrote:




On 7/29/20 7:58 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
 > If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I
sure want to
 > know about it!  Really.d.. that is the holy grail...
 > All off-grid inverets I see are designed for 48 volts for
compatibility
 > with batteries.
 > You only see 300-500 VDC input on Grid inverters since there are no
 > batteries.

This might be worth a look:

https://www.phocos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PSW-H-Series_english-datasheet_2020-07-17.pdf

I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.

BUT, the price is VERY attractive.


https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-3kW-24V-Any-Grid-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverer-p/phocos-psw-h-3kw-230-24v.htm

https://www.ecodirect.com/Phocos-Any-Grid-5kW-48V-Hybrid-Off-Grid-Inverter-p/phocos-psw-h-5kw-230-48v.htm



Also, there are a lot of abandoned Delta/SolarCity 6kw H6 inverters on
the market even cheaper.  I believe they may accept up to 600vdc.  If
you need a link, ask.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-H6-6000W-Grid-Tied-Inverter-NEW-Battery-less-Backup-UL1741-Rule-21-2MPPT/233314195391?hash=item36529c17bf:g:6pEAAOSwyJFfEflo
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, that looks promising..  How much is the 3 or 5kw model?
Bob

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 12:44 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/29/20 7:58 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want
> to
> > know about it!  Really.d.. that is the holy grail...
> > All off-grid inverets I see are designed for 48 volts for compatibility
> > with batteries.
> > You only see 300-500 VDC input on Grid inverters since there are no
> > batteries.
>
> This might be worth a look:
>
> https://www.phocos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PSW-H-Series_english-datasheet_2020-07-17.pdf
>
> I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
> require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.
>
> BUT, the price is VERY attractive.
>
> Also, there are a lot of abandoned Delta/SolarCity 6kw H6 inverters on
> the market even cheaper.  I believe they may accept up to 600vdc.  If
> you need a link, ask.
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, how much are they?
Single or 3 phase but no mention of 240 VAC two phase?
And is that 9 amps at 115 or 230?   I guess it is a 2kw nominal inverter?
Bob

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:34 PM Lee Hart  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want
> to
> > know about it!  Really... that is the holy grail...
>
> Bob, I have an Aerovironment SPC-2000 off-grid inverter. The solar input
> is 150-600 VDC, 8 amps max, and the output is 115/208/230vac single- or
> 3-phase, 9.5a continuous, 13a peak. It's intended to drive motors up to
> 1.5HP single-phase, or 2.5HP 3-phase (pumps, fans, blowers,
> refrigerators), Would that help?
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

True, south always better.  But the point is that then you need an inverter
with twice the capacity..
The topic being discussed is being able to share an inverter with
additional panels facing a different direction.

Key points:  1) when not facing due south, panels should be less tilted
since the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW, having flatter panels
gets more sun time in the middle of the day.
2) Even if both panels are quite illuminated at the same time, the MPPT
inverter will not be overloaded.  It will always adjust to max power and no
more.  SO having some overlap is OK.
3) In my case, my SE panels begin to be shaded by 2 PM, so I installed
another set of panels facing SW that begin to be unshaded about the same
time,
4) You must parallel them with diode isolation.

Back to #1, remember that even FLAT panels will produce 80% annual totals
of the ideal south panels.  They are terrible in the winter but make up for
it with the double high-sun in the summer.  Though do not do it, they will
collect dust and cant wash off in the rain.  Im just makiong the point that
the only placew where you tilt to latitude is due south.  Other directions,
less tilt is better.

Bob

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> FWIW I did some simulations using PVWatts 2 a while back to see if it made
> sense to have a panel facing east and another facing west, like you
> describe(tilted to match latitude).  I was hoping this would result in a
> flatter power output through the day.  Turned out that in almost all cases
> it was better off to have both panels facing south(tilted to match
> latitude).
> More power across the whole day and obviously more daily energy produced.
>
> July 29, 2020 6:55 PM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
> > Yes. With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels make a
> near equilateral triangle
> > with the ground. I'm wondering if I might see better results by reducing
> that angle between panels.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

FWIW I did some simulations using PVWatts 2 a while back to see if it made 
sense to have a panel facing east and another facing west, like you 
describe(tilted to match latitude).  I was hoping this would result in a 
flatter power output through the day.  Turned out that in almost all cases it 
was better off to have both panels facing south(tilted to match latitude).  
More power across the whole day and obviously more daily energy produced.

July 29, 2020 6:55 PM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
> Yes. With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels make a near 
> equilateral triangle
> with the ground. I'm wondering if I might see better results by reducing that 
> angle between panels.
>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/29/20 5:04 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 18:36 Willie via EV  wrote:




Perhaps you can comment on some trouble I've run into.

After observing that some microinverters worked on battery input and
that string inverters worked well with combined strings of both east and
west facing panels, I became convinced that a single microinverter could
serve one east facing panel and one west facing panel.  The two panels
connected in parallel to the microinverter.  Tests were disappointing
with generally a microinverter, over a day, producing less energy than
had it been attached to either a single east facing panel or a single
west facing panel.  Slopes on the panels are 15-20 deg from vertical so
that panels are shaded around 30% of the day and both E and W receive
sun about 30% of the day.  It is semi-clear that even a shaded panel
interferes with production from the not shaded panel.

String inverters can do "double duty", producing from east facing panels
early in the day and west facing panels late in the day.  With a smooth
change over at mid-day.  Microinverters seem unwilling to do that
"double duty".




Which microinverter model did you use?


The ones that will be useful to me for double duty are Enphase M215.  I 
have hundreds of them and only a few of other types.


My cost for one inverter per panel has been about $100; $50 for the 
panel and $50 for inverter plus cabling.  If I could get double duty to 
work, the cost per panel would drop to about $78.  A pair of MC4 
splitters is about $5, about $2.50/panel.



Were your solar modules identical?


Yes.


Which solar module model did you use?


I don't recall the brand name.  250w.


Were the solar modules facing completely opposite directions, true east and
true west, i.e. truly 180 degrees apart?


Yes.  With a vertical angle between of 30-40 deg; a pair of panels make 
a near equilateral triangle with the ground.  I'm wondering if I might 
see better results by reducing that angle between panels.


MPPT algorithms can get stuck at a local maximum point point instead of the
global maximum point point along the complex I-V curve created by 2
parallel modules. Shading can also create complex I-V curves. Some string
inverter brands (SMA) talk about how their products handling this situation
better than the competition.
*https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sma-shadefix/
*
https://www.sma-america.com/fileadmin/content/www.sma-america.com/Partners/Images/Knowledgebase/OptiTrac_Global_Peak/OPTITRACGPWP-UUS131010W.pdf



I have had good luck with several SMA/SunnyBoy 4kw old transformer type, 
single tracker.  Typically, two strings of 10E combined with 10W in the 
field plus another pair of 10E plus 10W combined in field, then combined 
at the inverter with the other pair.  BUT, I've also had good luck with 
smaller samples of other transformer type string inverters configured 
similarly.


With independent modules and independent MPPT, things are easy. When
paralleled, the two modules will need to operate on a common voltage. The
best power point voltage for one won't be the best for the other, except
when both modules have identical illumination. At other times one module
will be no longer at its personal peak. The question is whether or not the
microinverter can find the highest peak overall.


When I monitor the power from a single pair of panels (one inverter) at 
1 second intervals, I see what Lee described for one of his inverters. 
Good power briefly, going to zero, then back and forth.  The end result 
being not useful energy.


Thanks for the response!


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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 18:36 Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> Perhaps you can comment on some trouble I've run into.
>
> After observing that some microinverters worked on battery input and
> that string inverters worked well with combined strings of both east and
> west facing panels, I became convinced that a single microinverter could
> serve one east facing panel and one west facing panel.  The two panels
> connected in parallel to the microinverter.  Tests were disappointing
> with generally a microinverter, over a day, producing less energy than
> had it been attached to either a single east facing panel or a single
> west facing panel.  Slopes on the panels are 15-20 deg from vertical so
> that panels are shaded around 30% of the day and both E and W receive
> sun about 30% of the day.  It is semi-clear that even a shaded panel
> interferes with production from the not shaded panel.
>
> String inverters can do "double duty", producing from east facing panels
> early in the day and west facing panels late in the day.  With a smooth
> change over at mid-day.  Microinverters seem unwilling to do that
> "double duty".



Which microinverter model did you use?
Were your solar modules identical?
Which solar module model did you use?
Were the solar modules facing completely opposite directions, true east and
true west, i.e. truly 180 degrees apart?

MPPT algorithms can get stuck at a local maximum point point instead of the
global maximum point point along the complex I-V curve created by 2
parallel modules. Shading can also create complex I-V curves. Some string
inverter brands (SMA) talk about how their products handling this situation
better than the competition.
*https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sma-shadefix/
*
https://www.sma-america.com/fileadmin/content/www.sma-america.com/Partners/Images/Knowledgebase/OptiTrac_Global_Peak/OPTITRACGPWP-UUS131010W.pdf


With independent modules and independent MPPT, things are easy. When
paralleled, the two modules will need to operate on a common voltage. The
best power point voltage for one won't be the best for the other, except
when both modules have identical illumination. At other times one module
will be no longer at its personal peak. The question is whether or not the
microinverter can find the highest peak overall.
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 07/29/2020 16:35, Willie via EV wrote:


Perhaps you can comment on some trouble I've run into.

After observing that some microinverters worked on battery input and 
that string inverters worked well with combined strings of both east 
and west facing panels, I became convinced that a single microinverter 
could serve one east facing panel and one west facing panel.  The two 
panels connected in parallel to the microinverter.  Tests were 
disappointing with generally a microinverter, over a day, producing 
less energy than had it been attached to either a single east facing 
panel or a single west facing panel.  Slopes on the panels are 15-20 
deg from vertical so that panels are shaded around 30% of the day and 
both E and W receive sun about 30% of the day.  It is semi-clear that 
even a shaded panel interferes with production from the not shaded panel.


String inverters can do "double duty", producing from east facing 
panels early in the day and west facing panels late in the day. With a 
smooth change over at mid-day.  Microinverters seem unwilling to do 
that "double duty".


Diode isolate them so that when one panel is not in the sun, it will 
functionally be removed from the circuit.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/29/20 11:49 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

I think it depends on how they work. I have two MPPT trackers that still 
work if they're fed with batteries; and one that doesn't.


With a battery input, the big one that works maximizes its output, as if 
it's in full sun. Its input is current-limited to 8a; so that's what it 
draws, regardless of the battery voltage.


The little one is the same, except its input current tracks its input 
voltage. There is no input protection (except a fuse); so if the input 
voltage is too high, the input current gets too high and it blows a fuse.


The one that doesn't work is in a 24v microsine inverter. With a battery 
input, it ramps up to full power over a period of a few seconds; then 
shuts down for a few seconds; and repeats. It doesn't appear to be 
damaged; but it's also not particularly useful.


Off topic.  Maybe.

Perhaps you can comment on some trouble I've run into.

After observing that some microinverters worked on battery input and 
that string inverters worked well with combined strings of both east and 
west facing panels, I became convinced that a single microinverter could 
serve one east facing panel and one west facing panel.  The two panels 
connected in parallel to the microinverter.  Tests were disappointing 
with generally a microinverter, over a day, producing less energy than 
had it been attached to either a single east facing panel or a single 
west facing panel.  Slopes on the panels are 15-20 deg from vertical so 
that panels are shaded around 30% of the day and both E and W receive 
sun about 30% of the day.  It is semi-clear that even a shaded panel 
interferes with production from the not shaded panel.


String inverters can do "double duty", producing from east facing panels 
early in the day and west facing panels late in the day.  With a smooth 
change over at mid-day.  Microinverters seem unwilling to do that 
"double duty".


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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie McKemie via EV]

I successfully run microinverters on 36v batteries.


On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 14:30 John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

> On Wed Jul 29 09:44:30 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >This might be worth a look:
> >
> https://www.phocos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PSW-H-Series_english-datasheet_2020-07-17.pdf
> >
> >I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
> >require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.
>
> Except that the 450VDC Max is only for the PV Input which has a MPPT
> controller.
> I've read several places that a MPPT setup does not like being fed by
> batteries.
>
>
> --
>
> Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020, 14:46 Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> >> I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
> >> require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.
>
> > Except that the 450VDC Max is only for the PV Input which has a MPPT
> controller.
> > I've read several places that a MPPT setup does not like being fed by
> batteries.
>
> I think it depends on how they work. I have two MPPT trackers that still
> work if they're fed with batteries; and one that doesn't.
>
> With a battery input, the big one that works maximizes its output, as if
> it's in full sun. Its input is current-limited to 8a; so that's what it
> draws, regardless of the battery voltage.
>
> The little one is the same, except its input current tracks its input
> voltage. There is no input protection (except a fuse); so if the input
> voltage is too high, the input current gets too high and it blows a fuse.
>
> The one that doesn't work is in a 24v microsine inverter. With a battery
> input, it ramps up to full power over a period of a few seconds; then
> shuts down for a few seconds; and repeats. It doesn't appear to be
> damaged; but it's also not particularly useful.
>

It sounds like the 24v Microsine does not like running flat out. Did you
ever measure its power output when fed from a battery vs from a solar
module large enough to max out the output? If so, was it trying to output
more power than the nameplate rating?

My hypothesis is that it has a PTC resettable fuse or circuit breaker that
is tripping and resetting based on input or output current. Some
microinverters like the Enphase M215, rated at 215 watts AC, actually allow
themselves to go up to 225 watts AC output if there is enough power
available on their inputs (~237 or more watts DC, at 95% efficiency).

Maybe your 24v Microsine assumes available input power (VxI) at any point
on the I-V curve will never exceed the nameplate output rating, and the
only way it actually limits output is via the self-resetting fuse/breaker.

A battery I-V curve is different from a solar module, as the battery
voltage holds relatively steady across a large current range. An ideal
battery with zero internal resistance would have a constant output voltage
regardless of current. An unsophiscated MPPT would just try to draw
additional current as it found ever higher maximum power, until something
else limited it. A solar module behaves different, dropping to 0 volts when
at maximum current (Isc, short circuit).

Has anyone tried putting batteries on the DC side of a modern Enphase or
APS YC500 or YC600 microinverter? Some companies have prototyped solutions
that appear to do just that by placing a battery between a solar module and
a microinverter (e.g. Yotta Energy, https://yottaenergy.com ).

>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.



Except that the 450VDC Max is only for the PV Input which has a MPPT controller.
I've read several places that a MPPT setup does not like being fed by batteries.


I think it depends on how they work. I have two MPPT trackers that still 
work if they're fed with batteries; and one that doesn't.


With a battery input, the big one that works maximizes its output, as if 
it's in full sun. Its input is current-limited to 8a; so that's what it 
draws, regardless of the battery voltage.


The little one is the same, except its input current tracks its input 
voltage. There is no input protection (except a fuse); so if the input 
voltage is too high, the input current gets too high and it blows a fuse.


The one that doesn't work is in a 24v microsine inverter. With a battery 
input, it ramps up to full power over a period of a few seconds; then 
shuts down for a few seconds; and repeats. It doesn't appear to be 
damaged; but it's also not particularly useful.


Lee Hart
--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Jul 29 09:44:30 PDT 2020 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>This might be worth a look:
>https://www.phocos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PSW-H-Series_english-datasheet_2020-07-17.pdf
>
>I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think,
>require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.

Except that the 450VDC Max is only for the PV Input which has a MPPT controller.
I've read several places that a MPPT setup does not like being fed by batteries.


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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want to
know about it!  Really... that is the holy grail...


Bob, I have an Aerovironment SPC-2000 off-grid inverter. The solar input 
is 150-600 VDC, 8 amps max, and the output is 115/208/230vac single- or 
3-phase, 9.5a continuous, 13a peak. It's intended to drive motors up to 
1.5HP single-phase, or 2.5HP 3-phase (pumps, fans, blowers, 
refrigerators), Would that help?


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

You can trick some grid-tied inverters into working in "island" mode by 
providing an AC signal from a smaller 'off-grid' inverter.

The trick, however, is controlling the power output.  Most grid tied inverters 
want to work in an all-or-nothing mode, if they were tied to a DC source that 
doesn't sag under full load, they would try to output their max power, whether 
you need it or not.  If the load can't take the full output, then the voltage 
climbs above the cutoff threshold and they shutdown.

I've been thinking along these lines myself and I think a better alternative 
might be to use DC-DC converters to convert the pack voltage down to 24-48V and 
use a more typical off-grid inverter.

July 29, 2020 8:58 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:

> If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want to
> know about it! Really... that is the holy grail...
> All off-grid inverets I see are designed for 48 volts for compatibility
> with batteries.
> You only see 300-500 VDC input on Grid inverters since there are no
> batteries.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 12:50 AM Luke Scharf 
> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks! I've managed to find https://plugoutpower.com and read through
>> their site. I'll contact them if I have something they might find
>> interesting.
>> 
>> I just purchased a GM 2-mode hybrid pickup truck, and have been doing
>> pen-and-paper design exercises to see if adding an electric power takeoff
>> inverter is possible.
>> 
>> It looks doable. Figuring out how to tap into the HVDC system under the
>> hood doesn't look that hard, and finding electrically-compatible parts
>> (such as an off-grid MPPT inverter which can take a 300VDC input) also
>> looks fairly doable.
>> 
>> But, plugging things together is the easy part. There are a lot of
>> engineering constraints and safety/durability issues which would need to be
>> thought through carefully. This is a pen-and-paper design exercise for me
>> for now.
>> 
>> -Luke
>> 
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 11:34 AM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>> 
>>> There is a company (called Plugout I think) working on a 3kw and 5kw
>>> version but best I can tell, they are taking the simple way out. They are
>>> just taking a normal inverter (designed for HVDC input for Europe (220
>>> VAC) and then selling you an autotransformer to convert to split phase 240
>>> VAC.
>>> 
>>> But the weight of a 3 to 5 kW autotransfomer has got to be hundreds of
>>> lbs. And price goes up to the thousands.
>>> 
>>> To me it should be a designers dream and huge market, EXCEPT that it will
>>> require professional hacking to each EV or Hybrid model depending on
>>> voltage and how hard it is to get access to the HV circuits. The prius
>>> battery was 220 VDC and pretty easy to get to. No one seems to know how to
>>> get into a Volt's battery without dropping the entire battery from below.
>>> 
>>> Bob, WB4APR
>>> Author ARRL: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:40 PM Luke Scharf via EV 
>>> wrote:
>> 
>> Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
>> 2-Mode hybrid?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> -Luke
>> 
>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> redscooter via EV wrote:
 I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
>>> prius
 can do this meaning, turn the car on, turn off all the extra loads,
>> turn
 on invertor. Which years or gen /s will stay on and keep charging
>> the 12
 vdc battery?? some talked about using the manal key to lock the
>> doors.
>>> 
>>> I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
>>> to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
>>> with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary
>> to
>>> keep the 12v battery charged.
>>> 
>>> Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
>>> outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
>>> heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
>>> 
>>> Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
>>> inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
>>> . He's on this list, so perhaps
>>> he'll chime in with more information. :-)
>>> 
>>> Lee Hart
>>> 
>>> --
>>> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>>> - something to do
>>> - something to look forward to
>>> - someone to love
>>> - someone to take good care of
>>> - and misbehave, just a little
>>> --
>>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>>> ___
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>>> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Willie via EV]

On 7/29/20 7:58 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want to
know about it!  Really.d.. that is the holy grail...
All off-grid inverets I see are designed for 48 volts for compatibility
with batteries.
You only see 300-500 VDC input on Grid inverters since there are no
batteries.


This might be worth a look:
https://www.phocos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PSW-H-Series_english-datasheet_2020-07-17.pdf

I have a 5kw on order for testing.  Maximum VDC of 450 will, I think, 
require some adjustment in the way I've been doing things.


BUT, the price is VERY attractive.

Also, there are a lot of abandoned Delta/SolarCity 6kw H6 inverters on 
the market even cheaper.  I believe they may accept up to 600vdc.  If 
you need a link, ask.

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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

If you can find an off-grid inverter with 300 VDC input then I sure want to
know about it!  Really... that is the holy grail...
All off-grid inverets I see are designed for 48 volts for compatibility
with batteries.
You only see 300-500 VDC input on Grid inverters since there are no
batteries.

Bob

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 12:50 AM Luke Scharf 
wrote:

> Thanks!  I've managed to find https://plugoutpower.com/ and read through
> their site.  I'll contact them if I have something they might find
> interesting.
>
> I just purchased a GM 2-mode hybrid pickup truck, and have been doing
> pen-and-paper design exercises to see if adding an electric power takeoff
> inverter is possible.
>
> It looks doable.  Figuring out how to tap into the HVDC system under the
> hood doesn't look that hard, and finding electrically-compatible parts
> (such as an off-grid MPPT inverter which can take a 300VDC input) also
> looks fairly doable.
>
> But, plugging things together is the easy part.  There are a lot of
> engineering constraints and safety/durability issues which would need to be
> thought through carefully.  This is a pen-and-paper design exercise for me
> for now.
>
> -Luke
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 11:34 AM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>
>> There is a company (called Plugout I think) working on a 3kw and 5kw
>> version but best I can tell, they are taking the simple way out.  They are
>> just taking a normal inverter (designed for HVDC input  for Europe (220
>> VAC) and then selling you an autotransformer to convert to split phase 240
>> VAC.
>>
>> But the weight of a 3 to 5 kW autotransfomer has got to be hundreds of
>> lbs.  And price goes up to the thousands.
>>
>> To me it should be a designers dream and huge market, EXCEPT that it will
>> require professional hacking to each EV or Hybrid model depending on
>> voltage and how hard it is to get access to the HV circuits.  The prius
>> battery was 220 VDC and pretty easy to get to.  No one seems to know how to
>> get into a Volt's battery without dropping the entire battery from below.
>>
>> Bob, WB4APR
>> Author ARRL: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:40 PM Luke Scharf via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
>>> 2-Mode hybrid?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Luke
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > redscooter via EV wrote:
>>> > > I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
>>> > prius
>>> > > can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads,
>>> turn
>>> > > on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging
>>> the 12
>>> > > vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the
>>> doors.
>>> >
>>> > I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
>>> > to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
>>> > with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary
>>> to
>>> > keep the 12v battery charged.
>>> >
>>> > Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
>>> > outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
>>> > heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
>>> >
>>> > Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
>>> > inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
>>> > . He's on this list, so perhaps
>>> > he'll chime in with more information. :-)
>>> >
>>> > Lee Hart
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>>> >   - something to do
>>> >   - something to look forward to
>>> >   - someone to love
>>> >   - someone to take good care of
>>> >   - and misbehave, just a little
>>> >   --
>>> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>>> > ___
>>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>>> > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>> >
>>> >
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>>> >
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Luke Scharf via EV]

Thanks!  I've managed to find https://plugoutpower.com/ and read through
their site.  I'll contact them if I have something they might find
interesting.

I just purchased a GM 2-mode hybrid pickup truck, and have been doing
pen-and-paper design exercises to see if adding an electric power takeoff
inverter is possible.

It looks doable.  Figuring out how to tap into the HVDC system under the
hood doesn't look that hard, and finding electrically-compatible parts
(such as an off-grid MPPT inverter which can take a 300VDC input) also
looks fairly doable.

But, plugging things together is the easy part.  There are a lot of
engineering constraints and safety/durability issues which would need to be
thought through carefully.  This is a pen-and-paper design exercise for me
for now.

-Luke


On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 11:34 AM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> There is a company (called Plugout I think) working on a 3kw and 5kw
> version but best I can tell, they are taking the simple way out.  They are
> just taking a normal inverter (designed for HVDC input  for Europe (220
> VAC) and then selling you an autotransformer to convert to split phase 240
> VAC.
>
> But the weight of a 3 to 5 kW autotransfomer has got to be hundreds of
> lbs.  And price goes up to the thousands.
>
> To me it should be a designers dream and huge market, EXCEPT that it will
> require professional hacking to each EV or Hybrid model depending on
> voltage and how hard it is to get access to the HV circuits.  The prius
> battery was 220 VDC and pretty easy to get to.  No one seems to know how to
> get into a Volt's battery without dropping the entire battery from below.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
> Author ARRL: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:40 PM Luke Scharf via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
>> 2-Mode hybrid?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Luke
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > redscooter via EV wrote:
>> > > I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
>> > prius
>> > > can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads,
>> turn
>> > > on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging
>> the 12
>> > > vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the
>> doors.
>> >
>> > I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
>> > to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
>> > with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to
>> > keep the 12v battery charged.
>> >
>> > Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
>> > outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
>> > heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
>> >
>> > Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
>> > inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
>> > . He's on this list, so perhaps
>> > he'll chime in with more information. :-)
>> >
>> > Lee Hart
>> >
>> > --
>> > If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>> >   - something to do
>> >   - something to look forward to
>> >   - someone to love
>> >   - someone to take good care of
>> >   - and misbehave, just a little
>> >   --
>> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>> > ___
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
>> > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> >
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Seems to me if you have an EV with a DC fast charge connection, even a CCS, if 
you can trick the contactors into closing, you'd have easy access to the HV 
power.   I wonder if you could hook into the OBD-II connector and send the 
canbus commands to turn on the contactors.
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

> 
> But the weight of a 3 to 5 kW autotransfomer has got to be hundreds of
> lbs. And price goes up to the thousands.

LOL, not even close.  
Autotransformers are frequently used for off-grid systems, a 5kVA unit weighs 
about 30 lbs and costs $300-$500 new.
https://www.solar-electric.com/solaredge-seauto-tx-5000-auto-tranformer.html

They are also used frequently (or were) by GIs stationed in Europe so you can 
run 120V vaccumms, etc. on the 240V power there.  I have a 5kv unit kicking 
around here somewhere that I bought when I was stationed in England or Germany, 
I think I paid $25 for it(used), but that was back in the '80s.
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

There is a company (called Plugout I think) working on a 3kw and 5kw
version but best I can tell, they are taking the simple way out.  They are
just taking a normal inverter (designed for HVDC input  for Europe (220
VAC) and then selling you an autotransformer to convert to split phase 240
VAC.

But the weight of a 3 to 5 kW autotransfomer has got to be hundreds of
lbs.  And price goes up to the thousands.

To me it should be a designers dream and huge market, EXCEPT that it will
require professional hacking to each EV or Hybrid model depending on
voltage and how hard it is to get access to the HV circuits.  The prius
battery was 220 VDC and pretty easy to get to.  No one seems to know how to
get into a Volt's battery without dropping the entire battery from below.

Bob, WB4APR
Author ARRL: http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html



On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:40 PM Luke Scharf via EV 
wrote:

> Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
> 2-Mode hybrid?
>
> Thanks,
> -Luke
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> > redscooter via EV wrote:
> > > I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
> > prius
> > > can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads,
> turn
> > > on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the
> 12
> > > vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.
> >
> > I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
> > to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
> > with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to
> > keep the 12v battery charged.
> >
> > Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
> > outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
> > heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
> >
> > Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
> > inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
> > . He's on this list, so perhaps
> > he'll chime in with more information. :-)
> >
> > Lee Hart
> >
> > --
> > If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
> >   - something to do
> >   - something to look forward to
> >   - someone to love
> >   - someone to take good care of
> >   - and misbehave, just a little
> >   --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Luke Scharf via EV]

Has anyone done anything like Richard Factor's PriUPS, except with the GM
2-Mode hybrid?

Thanks,
-Luke

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 3:25 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> redscooter via EV wrote:
> > I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the
> prius
> > can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads, turn
> > on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the 12
> > vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.
>
> I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have
> to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on"
> with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to
> keep the 12v battery charged.
>
> Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory
> outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with
> heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.
>
> Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with
> inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas
> . He's on this list, so perhaps
> he'll chime in with more information. :-)
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>   - something to do
>   - something to look forward to
>   - someone to love
>   - someone to take good care of
>   - and misbehave, just a little
>   --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] prius as generator

[Lee Hart via EV]

redscooter via EV wrote:

I want to do a prius 12vdc battery to 120 vac invertor. which of the prius
can do this meaning, turn the car on,  turn off all the extra loads, turn
on invertor. Which years or gen /s  will stay on and keep charging the 12
vdc battery??  some talked about using the manal key to lock the doors.


I have a 2001 Prius, and my son has a 2014 Prius. We really don't have 
to do anything special to power an inverter. Just leave the key "on" 
with the car in "ready", and the ICE will start and stop as necessary to 
keep the 12v battery charged.


Small inverters (under 100w) can be plugged into the 12v accessory 
outlet. Larger ones should be connected directly to the battery with 
heavy wires, as they can draw a significant amount of current.


Bob Bruninga has done a significant amount of work on Prius with 
inverters. Check out his website for details and ideas 
. He's on this list, so perhaps 
he'll chime in with more information. :-)


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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