Re: language, cloning and thought experiments
2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying, since it would radically alter my future experiences by eliminating them. On the other hand, 1-1 or many-1 copying would leave my future experiences the same as if the teleportation hadn't occurred. Only for one of you. Many-1 of you would have different future experiences (according to this theory). Why don't you care about the loss of those experiences? You might say that this is an illusion since the original me will actually be dead but the same illusion occurs in ordinary life, and it is the circumstances under which the illusion is preserved that interests me when I think about survival. I'm not sure what you mean by this. What illusion of ordinary life do you refer to? That you are the same as the Stathis of last year? Brent I think he means the same thing as what you mean when you say you are you when you wake up the morning and remember going to sleep the previous day... that you remember and assert that you are you... -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: language, cloning and thought experiments
2009/3/9 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/8 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: And if it went to zero you certainly wouldn't know and wouldn't care. If I died I wouldn't be around to know or care, but I would care in anticipation of dying, since it would radically alter my future experiences by eliminating them. On the other hand, 1-1 or many-1 copying would leave my future experiences the same as if the teleportation hadn't occurred. Only for one of you. Many-1 of you would have different future experiences (according to this theory). Why don't you care about the loss of those experiences? I meant the case of culling teleportation, where many identical copies disappear and one copy appears. If 1-1 teleportation is OK for each individual copy then many-1 should also be OK. In other words, each of the many copies feels he survives as the one copy, so each of the many copies is satisfied with the outcome. You might say that this is an illusion since the original me will actually be dead but the same illusion occurs in ordinary life, and it is the circumstances under which the illusion is preserved that interests me when I think about survival. I'm not sure what you mean by this. What illusion of ordinary life do you refer to? That you are the same as the Stathis of last year? Of last year or last night, as Quentin said. -- Stathis Papaioannou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Cellular automata @ home?
Hello! I invite to check my idea of a *home made complex self-organizing system:* ** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTEWUTl_OcI Greetings!! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [Fwd: NDPR David Shoemaker, Personal Identity and Ethics: A Brief Introduction]
Bruno, - again the bartender... * Initial remark: I like Gunther's parenthetical condition of arithmetic consistency - which I find not assured in DIFFERENT universes. As I said axioms (2+2=4) are in my opinion *thought - conditions* to make one's theory workable and so they are conditioned by the circumstances. * What I try to add is the *'mind-body' problem*. While I have no definition for *mind,* we 'all' think to know what it means: *a non-material mentality* which encompasses the tool's (brain(function)) *genetic built differences* - i.e. enhanced or reduced ease of connectivity-building in select topical domains - plus the *sum of previous experience* helping one's personal interpretation (and maybe more) including one's faith in a soul as well, while the* 'body'* is the formulation of a* **figment* in the 'physical world' upon phenomena that are (mis/poorly) understood when received and *both *are parts of the *complexity of us*. I cannot figure a 'separation' of substantial parts of a complexity without destruction of the complexity in its entirety, so a transport can be only the entire complexity - or none. Aristotle had it easy with his simple cognitive level of the 'physical world' so there was an easy possibility of thinking separately about the physical body and the rest of it not fitting into such. In brief: *I se no 'mind-body' problem*, only when we try the ancient (I may say: obsolete) ways of separating the *'physical world figment'* from the total (complexity). * ((you promised an explanatory post to my askings - I am in a hurry to write down these remarks, because MAYBE after your explanations these would not make senseG)) John M On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Mar 2009, at 18:06, Günther Greindl wrote: The idea was that the numbers encode moments which don't have successors (the guy who transports), that's why there exist alien-OMs encoded in numbers which destroy all the machines (if we assume that arithmetic is consistent). Hmmm (Not to clear for me, I guess I miss something. I can build to much scenario from you say here). Of course we are in complex matter. It is good to recall that UDA is essentially a question. It is an rgument of the kind; did you see that taking comp seriously the mind-body problem is two times more complex that in the usual Aristotelian version of it. We have not only to find a theory of mind/consciousness/psyche:soul/first-person; but we have to extract the physical laws (laws of the observable), if there exists any, from that theory of mind. But now it happens that the theory of mind already exists, if we continue to take the comp hyp seriously. Indeed, it is computer science, alias intensional and extensional number theory (or combinators ...). here there are the bombs (creative bomb) of Post Turing ... discover of the mathemaical concept of universal machine, and of Gödel' Bernay Hilbert Löb's discovery of the formal probability predicate, expressible in arithmetic, and some of its key and stable properties, leter capture completely (at some level) by Solovay. Roughly speaking Universal Machine + induction axioms gives Löbian Machine, and this is the treshold she remains Lobian in all its correct extension. It is the ultimate modest machine. The discovery if the universal machine is a discovery is one of the very rare absolute notion. It makes computable an absolute notion. Now, is the universal machine really universal? That is the content, in the digital realm, of Church Thesis. Gödel discovery is that there is no corresponding notion of provability. If you are interested in just arithmetical truth, truth concerning relations between natural numbers, you cannot have a theory or a machine enumerating all the true propositions. You will have with chance a succession of theories: like Robinson Arithmetic, Peano Arithmetic, Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, ZF+there is an inaccessible cardinal, whatever ... Each of them will prove vaster and vaster portion of arithmetical truth, but none will get the complete picture; like us, obviously today at least. If a successor state requires something impossible, *that* successor state will be impossible, but it does not mean there will not be other successor states, indeed, for mind corresponding on machine's state, a continuum of successor states exists. This is the issue at stake: from what do you gather that all machine states have a continuum of successor states (the aleph_0/aleph_1 is not at issue now; it suffices to say: at least one successor state)? After all, there are halting computations. By step seven. A machine halt only relatively to a universal machine which executes it. The whole problem for *us* is that we cannot not know which univerrsal machine we are, nor really which universal machine supports us. The UD generates your state S again, and again, and again an
Reality as simplicity
Not certain what thread this belongs in so I started up a new one. arxiv.org:0903.1193v1 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Cellular automata @ home?
if I correctly understand they are syncing with one another through their sensors. so it is a bit of Gleich's Sync book implemented in lights. Or have I completely misunderstood? Tim On 9 Mar 2009, at 15:16, Feliciano Guimarães wrote: Hello! I invite to check my idea of a home made complex self-organizing system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTEWUTl_OcI Greetings!! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Cellular automata @ home?
What you have here is a phenomenon which has been described a lot for 50 years. It appears in the literature in the descriptions of the synchronous behaviour of crickets, cicadas and fireflies. Eg: D. E. Kim, A spiking neuron model for synchronous flashing of fireflies, Biosystems, vol. 76, pp. 7-20, 2004. V. Nityananda and R. Balakrishnan, Synchrony during acoustic interactions in the bushcricket Mecopoda 'Chirper' (Tettigoniidae : Orthoptera) is generated by a combination of chirp-by-chirp resetting and change in intrinsic chirp rate, Journal of Comparative Physiology a-Neuroethology Sensory Neural and Behavioral Physiology, vol. 193, pp. 51-65, Jan 2007. I. Stewart, The synchronicity of firefly flashing, Scientific American, vol. 280, pp. 104-106, Mar 1999. S. H. Strogatz and I. Stewart, Coupled oscillators and biological synchronization, Scientific American, vol. 269, p. 102, 12 1993. and there is a classic book A. T. Winfree, The geometry of biological time. New York: Springer Verlag, 1980. Such ideas are currently being used (mathematics thereof) by two people 10 feet from me, who are working on epilepsy prediction and detection. What you have realised, however, is the fact that neural networks (which is exactly what the garden lights behaviour capture, albeit primitively) /are identical to a form of (multidimensional/dynamic) cellular automaton/. What you have demonstrated is precisely what I am doing to create an AGI. The killer question: When might it be 'like something' to 'BE' a collection of such objects behaving dynamically? (or what might it be like to be an entity inside a cellular automaton?) Nice one! cheers colin Hello! I invite to check my idea of a *home made complex self-organizing system:* ** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTEWUTl_OcI Greetings!! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Wolfram Alpha
http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10240m=41581 Universities and schools should now re-invent themselves. We no longer need any institution to dole out knowledge because all (non-fuzzy factual) knowledge can be downloaded from the Net. Education can now only have a future by teaching skills - meaning: what you DO with that knowledge, also how to invent the future without having to continually compare every new idea to existing knowledge - the current paradigm and way too slow. Time is running out fast. Hint: teach creative thinking Huh? What's that? Don't we already do that? etc. cheers, Kim Jones There are no surprising facts about reality, only models of it that are surprised by facts Email: kmjco...@mac.com kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Web: http://web.mac.com/kmjcommp/Plenitude_Music Phone: (612) 9389 4239 or 0431 723 001 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Wolfram Alpha
Kim Jones wrote: http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10240m=41581 http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10240m=41581 Universities and schools should now re-invent themselves. We no longer need any institution to dole out knowledge because all (non-fuzzy factual) knowledge can be downloaded from the Net. Along with an enormous amount of fuzzy, non-factual ignorance. Education can now only have a future by teaching skills Like B.S. detection. Brent Meeker The internet is a pornography delivery medium occasionally used for other purposes. --- George Carlin - meaning: what you DO with that knowledge, also how to invent the future without having to continually compare every new idea to existing knowledge - the current paradigm and way too slow. Time is running out fast. Hint: teach creative thinking Huh? What's that? Don't we already do that? etc. cheers, Kim Jones There are no /surprising facts about reality/, only /models/ of it that are /surprised by/ facts Email: kmjco...@mac.com mailto:kmjco...@mac.com kimjo...@ozemail.com.au mailto:kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Web: http://web.mac.com/kmjcommp/Plenitude_Music Phone: (612) 9389 4239 or 0431 723 001 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Wolfram Alpha
Certainly wouldn't disagree with you, Brent but I'm just wondering whether it's ever worth bringing out your yellow Positive Thinking hat before you automatically reach for your black Negative/Cautionary thinking hat? Please go right ahead and invent a bullshit detector ( a real one - not a bullshit one as they already exist) and I'll be one of the first to congratulate you. Perhaps Steve Wolfram (and the Internet) deserve a bit more of your consideration than just this? best regards, Kim On 10/03/2009, at 12:24 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: Kim Jones wrote: http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html? newsID=10240m=41581 http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=10240m=41581 Universities and schools should now re-invent themselves. We no longer need any institution to dole out knowledge because all (non-fuzzy factual) knowledge can be downloaded from the Net. Along with an enormous amount of fuzzy, non-factual ignorance. Education can now only have a future by teaching skills Like B.S. detection. Brent Meeker The internet is a pornography delivery medium occasionally used for other purposes. --- George Carlin - meaning: what you DO with that knowledge, also how to invent the future without having to continually compare every new idea to existing knowledge - the current paradigm and way too slow. Time is running out fast. Hint: teach creative thinking Huh? What's that? Don't we already do that? etc. cheers, Kim Jones There are no /surprising facts about reality/, only /models/ of it that are /surprised by/ facts Email: kmjco...@mac.com mailto:kmjco...@mac.com kimjo...@ozemail.com.au mailto:kimjo...@ozemail.com.au Web: http://web.mac.com/kmjcommp/Plenitude_Music Phone: (612) 9389 4239 or 0431 723 001 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
