RE: musings on time

['Chris de Morsella' via Everything List]

Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time to time, 
lurking I guess…. 

without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at least --  in the 
form of a poem. 

 

Time a Musing

 

Time, this tapestry upon which the stories of the universe are written.

This weave, spun from dancing kaleidoscope threads

Giving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has always been.

This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy curl of 
collapsing superposition.

Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed, interpolated, incorporated

In the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it dawns on us) into our 
living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions, dreams, hopes and fears 
as well.

 

Each moment perceived an inner splash… with all the follow on repercussions!

The private inner narrative of our minds -- that which we sense as being 
ourselves – itself emerges from this complex roiling sea of interactions

Appearing within us out from the mist of this reified stream of perceived 
instants, clanging about in the chatty electric circus of the brain, engaging 
in a loud shouting match with what just happened.

Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent consensus, events 
become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and adopted through interaction 
with our inner prisms.

Our voice, speaking the narrative of our mind’s inner reflections on life… on 
time… is itself like an afterglow.

Each moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the former has 
happened… we are propelled forward in time.

 

Time itself may not exist (maybe?), but the experience of time very much does.

Perhaps… it is our introspective theater of and reflection on our experience 
that, in the end, is the meaning and purpose of time itself.

Time… how the universe engages in thinking about itself.

 

 

Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.

-Chris

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Re: Holiday Exercise (was: self (was Re: Aristotle the Nitwit

[John Clark]

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:


> ​> ​
> You betray that you are so much Aristotelian that
>

​Aristotle was a nitwit. ​


>
​>​
>  It is *the* very idea of Plato that


​Plato was a nitwit.​


​> ​
> Aristotle in a nutshell
> ​​
>

​Should remain in his nutshell because there is
absolutely positively nothing Aristotle can contribute to modern science,
and the same thing goes to Plato.


​
>> ​>> ​
>> So there are an infinite number of Bruno Marchals in Everett's Many
>> Worlds but all of them are zombies with no consciousness except for one,
>> the one in this world; THAT AND ONLY THAT Bruno Marchal has *THE* FPI.​
>
>
> Of course not! I have no clue how you derive this.
>

​Then I will give you a clue, the clue is "*THE"*.​



> ​> ​
> They have all the FPI,
>

​They can all have* A* FPI, but all of them can't have *THE* FPI.​



> ​> ​
> You brag not reading the papers,
>

​A proof is not like a novel, in a novel if you get to a bad part you can
keep on reading in the hope that it will get better, ​

​but proofs never get better after errors so only a fool would keep reading
after one is found.


> ​>> ​
>> Bruno is unable to answer the simple question " After "you" have been
>> duplicated what one and only one city will "you" end up seeing, Moscow or
>> Washington?"
>
>
> ​> ​
> Given that there has been a duplication, we have (in the 3-1 view) two
> first person views, and to get them, by the definition given, we need to
> ask the question to both copies.
>

​So after asking all the questions to everybody you want to ask questions
to and after the "you" duplicating experiment is long over what one and
only city do "you" conclude "you" ended up seeing, Washington or Moscow? If
this question has no answer (and gibberish has no answer) then it's not a
thought experiment, it's a thought muddle.   ​

​>​
>  Both says I see only one city
>

​
That doesn't answer the question! What one and only one city did "you" end
up seeing? If that question has no answer then stop using personal pronouns
if people duplicating machines are around.


​> ​
without having been able to predict which one in advance.

​
Which one? Before they were duplicated and saw different things there was
only one. Afterwords I would predict that the one that saw Washington would
be the Washington Man and the one that saw Moscow would be the Moscow Man.
What else is there to predict?
​
 What else is there to
​
say?


> ​> ​
> So both confirms the FPI.
>

​Both can't have much less confirm *THE* FPI.​



​> ​
both agree that they could not predict that answer in advance

​It's not just "in advance", even when it's all over nobody knows what the
answer turned out to be because nobody then or now knows what the hell the
question was. ​


​>​
>  they could not predict that answer in advance, and that when opening the
> door


​When the doors were opened was when the 2 diverged, until then it was one
individual with 2 identical brains running in parallel. And one of them
didn't become the Moscow Man and then saw Moscow, instead one of them saw
Moscow and that experience turned him into the Moscow Man. So which one
will become the Moscow Man? The one that will see Moscow. What more is
there to say?   ​


​> ​
they knew in advance that they would get one bit of information.

​So what was that one bit of information do you have after the experiment
that you didn't have before? If Moscow is zero and Washington is one is
that one bit of new information that you have now but didn't have before a
zero or a one? ​

 John K Clark

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Re: Holiday Exercise

[Russell Standish]

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 04:34:21PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> 
> ​You say I'm confused and then start babbling about "*the* 1-view*s*"! ​
> 
> ​That should be "the 1-view" . I know English isn't your first language but
> plural isn't used after "the".​
> 

Rubbish! One can use the before a plural in English - eg "the men came
today to fix the garden". And it has essentially the same meaning as
the plural definite article in French (les).

Sure, in French, definite articles are used more often and in somewhat
strange places to anglophone ears, but I'm not convinced that is really
the source of your difficulty in understanding Bruno.

Cheers

-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Holiday Exercise

[John Clark]

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Bruno Marchal  wrote:

​>> ​
>> ​Both don't see both cities at the same time, but John Clark certainly
>> will.
>
>
> ​> ​
> This is you clearest way to express your confusion between the 3-1 view
> and the 1-views.
>

​You say I'm confused and then start babbling about "*the* 1-view*s*"! ​

​That should be "the 1-view" . I know English isn't your first language but
plural isn't used after "the".​


​> ​
>  Even if we can say that the two copies is one guy,


​The Ohio and Missouri river merge with the Mississippi and so does the
Ohio, so if I'm going upstream on the Mississippi to the end from New
Orleans what one and only one place will I end up at?  Or is that a silly
question?​



> ​> ​
> the fact remain that for all copies, the measurement result
> (self-localization on W , M) are different for each of the copies.


​S​
elf-localization
​works great in the present  (I know for sure who I am right now) and it
works pretty well​ looking back into the past (it's hard to believe I
thought that when I was 10 but I guess I did) , but even in our world it
doesn't work worth a damn looking toward the future (I have no idea what
I'll see or do or think next year) ; and if the world had Bruno Marchal
duplicating machines
​S​
elf-localization
​ the future would work even less well.​

​> ​
> and does not address any question of prediction


​Prediction is hard, especially the future. It's even harder if it's not
made clear exactly who the prediction is supposed to be about.​

​You can't give the correct answer if you don't know what the question is.​

​> ​
> Thanks for showing up the strategy to hide the first person witnessing the
> consequence of mechanism.
>

​The ultimate consequences of mechanism are very odd indeed but they are
not paradoxical, and the only reason they seem strange is that our
technology (not our basic science) is not yet good enough to highlight
those odd consequences. That will all change in less than 100 years,
perhaps less than 50.


> ​> ​
> It is interesting how your confusion 3-1 and 1 led you directly to
> eliminate the first persons,
>

​
I'm not confused and it isn't very interesting, it's just elementary logic.
​
In a world with person duplicating machines THE first person does not
exist. The first person relative to the Moscow man makes sense
​,​
and the
​
first person relative to the
​
Washington
​
man makes sense
​,​
​
and
​
first person relative to the
​
Helsinki
​
i
​
man makes sense
​
BEFORE he walked into the Helsinki man duplicating machine, but after that
talking about
​ *THE* Helsinki man and *THE* first person is just ridiculous.​


> ​> ​
> please stop talking like if you knew that Aristotle is correct and Plato
> wrong
>

​Before it was changed the title of this thread was "Aristotle the nitwit"
and I think that was a far better name.​

​Maybe "The Ancient Greeks didn't know where the sun went at night" ​would
have been even better.

 John K Clark

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Re: Holiday Exercise (was: self (was Re: Aristotle the Nitwit

[Bruno Marchal]

Errata:

On 24 Jul 2016, at 16:55, Bruno Marchal wrote:

It is Moscow and not Washington for all of them, and Washington and  
not Moscow for all for them, but the key point is that both agree  
that they could not predict that answer in advance, and that when  
opening the door, they knew in advance that they would get one bit  
of information.


Read instead:

It is Moscow and not Washington for half of them, and Washington and  
not Moscow for half of them, but the key point is that both agree that  
they could not predict that answer in advance, and that when opening  
the door, they knew in advance that they would get one bit of  
information.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Holiday Exercise

[Bruno Marchal]

On 24 Jul 2016, at 01:09, John Clark wrote:


On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at Bruno Marchal  wrote:

​> ​John Clark's idea that he remains the one person John Clark,

​Being the world's greatest ​​expert on John Clark I can say  
with some authority that is NOT John Clark's idea, instead it's that  
if John Clark walks into a John Clark duplicating  ​machine and  
then sees different things John Clark will become 2 people each with  
a equal right to the name John Clark. What "he" and various other  
personal pronoun will see depends entirely on what if anything those  
words mean in a world with John Clark duplicating machines. ​


​> ​seeing both cities at once​

​Both don't see both cities at the same time, but John Clark  
certainly will.


This is you clearest way to express your confusion between the 3-1  
view and the 1-views.
With that theory we are already all the same person. I can accept, but  
obviously, it is a bit of trivial, and does not address any question  
of prediction. Even if we can say that the two copies is one guy, the  
fact remain that for all copies, the measurement result (self- 
localization on W , M) are different for each of the copies.





What "he" and various other personal pronoun will see depends  
entirely on what if anything those words mean in a world with John  
Clark duplicating machines. ​


Thanks for showing up the strategy to hide the first person witnessing  
the consequence of mechanism.







​> ​The FPI, like a measurement in physics needs a notion of  
immediate knowledge,


​In a world with "the" duplicating machines "the" does not  
exist. ​



And poor misters M-Clark and W-Clark are asked to stay mute, as both  
witnesses that the "the" in Helsinki made perfect sense after all, as  
both say "Ah, that was *the* experience you asked me to predict!".  
Yes, the unique experience of feeling in one city, that both live  
after pushing the button in Helsinki.


It is interesting how your confusion 3-1 and 1 led you directly to  
eliminate the first persons, or at least to your never taking their  
discourses into account (despite that was the explicit object of the  
exercise), and at the same time led you to introduce spooky action at  
a distance in Everett QM. I feel like it comes from the same apparent  
difficulties you have to take the first person discourses into full  
account.


Also, we don't do philosophy or religion, so please stop talking like  
if you knew that Aristotle is correct and Plato wrong, given that this  
is exactly what you will surely doubt the day you can take the  
different person points of view or modalities (1p singular, 1p-plural,  
3-1, 1-3, etc.) into account.
In the math part, those distinction are made obligatory through  
incompleteness, and can be formalized in arithmetic easily through the  
logics of self-reference (G, G*, S4Grz, Z, X, etc.) and the  
arithmetical or computer science theoretical interpretations.


Bruno







  ​John K Clark​






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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Holiday Exercise (was: self (was Re: Aristotle the Nitwit

[Bruno Marchal]

On 23 Jul 2016, at 19:24, John Clark wrote:

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


​> ​"our world" cannot be taken as a primitive notion in our  
setting.


​If nothing else I admire your courage, most people would be  
embarrassed to admit that they don't accept reality. ​



Interesting. You betray that you are so much Aristotelian that you  
forget some people could disagree with them.
It is *the* very idea of Plato that what we see might not be the  
*PRIMITIVE* reality.


Aristotle in a nutshell: what we see = reality (that lead to the  
contemporain physicalism)


Plato in a nutshell: what we see = symptom of some unknown reality  
that we can search (led to Xeusippes "mathematicalism" and diverse  
form of neopythagoreanism.









​> ​QM without collapse can arguably be mentioned as an evidence  
"the FPI exists".


​So there are an infinite number of Bruno Marchals in Everett's  
Many Worlds but all of them are zombies with no consciousness except  
for one, the one in this world; THAT AND ONLY THAT Bruno Marchal has  
THE FPI.​


Of course not! I have no clue how you derive this. They have all the  
FPI, and that is why there is a FPI. Nothing collapse the wave, and of  
course, nothing collapse the many computations in arithmetic.
But the key computationalist point, is that for all copies, they feel  
like a dissymetry has been introduced and they feel like a collapse,  
and this in QM-without collapse (Everett), in the local physical  
computationalist FPI (step 3), and in the global FPI (step 7).








​>> ​So "What one and only one experience will ​The Helsinki  
Man experience?" is not a question with a indeterminate answer, it's  
just an asinine question.


​> ​You forget having an once of empathy for the copies here. You  
should try to be polite with your selves.


​According to Bruno Marchal only I have THE FPI, so why should I be  
empathic or polite to zombies? It would be like being kind to a  
rock. Just to be clear, "I" is defined as the person having THE FPI,  
and THE FPI is defined as THE FPI I am having.


I don't know if you fake it, but you reason like misunderstandinbg  
everything I said in the post and oin the papers. You brag not reading  
the papers, but you seem to not read the post either.








​>> ​​Math alone can't confirm anything,​ ​it can just tell  
us that certain results follow from certain assumptions. But you're  
assumptions are worse than wrong, they're gibberish. ​


​> ​I think that you confuse "confirming", and making something  
true.


​Math can't make anything true, it can show that something is true  
IF AND ONLY IF the assumptions that the math uses are true.
If the assumptions are not true or not false either (aka gibberish,  
as in your case) math can't make or do or prove or do anything with  
it.  If you stick nonsense into the math machine nonsense will come  
spewing out accomplishing nothing.


​​>> ​Not only that, "you" cannot know which one even after the  
experiment is over because it's not a question, it's just words with  
a question mark at the end. ​


​> ​This is so easily shown wrong. I did  it many times,

​Bruno Marchal has done it so many times that​ ​now Bruno is  
unable to answer the simple question " After "you" have been  
duplicated what one and only one city will "you" end up seeing,  
Moscow or Washington?"



Given that there has been a duplication, we have (in the 3-1 view) two  
first person views, and to get them, by the definition given, we need  
to ask the question to both copies.


And both confirms the statement predicted by the computationalist in  
Helsinki. Both says I see only one city without having been able to  
predict which one in advance. So both confirms the FPI.







​This question (assuming it really is a question and is not just  
gibberish with a question mark at the end) is indeed simple, in that  
it should have a one word answer known to everybody after the  
experiment is completed, but Bruno Marchal has given the answer so  
many times Bruno has forgotten if that one word is Moscow or  
Washington.


It is Moscow and not Washington for all of them, and Washington and  
not Moscow for all for them, but the key point is that both agree that  
they could not predict that answer in advance, and that when opening  
the door, they knew in advance that they would get one bit of  
information.


It is very easy, and very clear. You need just to keep in mind that  
the question is on the accessible 1-views.


Bruno







John K Clark







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