Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
Bruno, I would say that Carroll believes that matter exists. He looks suspicious of ideal mathematical objects existing in Platonia, even though there is no explicit discussion about this in his book. Hence, it looks like normal physicalism. Well, Carroll refers to his theology as poetic naturalism. https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/poetic-naturalism/ The difference, in my view, is not that big though. Evgeny Am 15.10.2016 um 19:20 schrieb Bruno Marchal: On 11 Oct 2016, at 19:43, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I have listened to Sean Carroll's Big Picture. His world view is actually similar to the Game of Life, well, the rules are a bit more complicated. Below is the link to the equation that he proposes. Either it solves the measure problem, without using the quantum solution (easy!), but in that case it is Turing equivalent with "Universal Dovetailer", true (or provable) sigma_1 sentences, etc. And then the task remains to deduce it from qG and qG*, to get the genuine qualia relevant with the possible available quanta. Not yet got the time to look at this. Busy times. Carroll claims that his equation describes human beings as well. He takes a compatibilist position in respect to free will: free will is compatible with the determinism. Thanks God! At the same time, he says that his equation is the very strong intellectual achievement of the mankind. Now I have a doubt. I thought that it could be possible to invent some sort of the Game of Life where during the system evolution one gets the rule of the game printed on the screen. In my view, this should be somewhat analogous to what Carroll says. Well, it is hard to say in what form the rules of the game should appear, but this after all gives some freedom to invent such a game. I should mention that I mean nothing fancy. "Explaining" is meant in pure epiphenomenal fashion: an equation spontaneously appeared on a sheet of paper, nothing else. What do you think? Could it be possible to invent a self-explaining Game of Life in that sense? It is a standard result in mathematical logic that this is what happens already in elementary arithmetic. Even just he polynomial diophantine equation are like that. And we are always confronted to our first person self localization relatively to an infinity of "competing on your continuation" universal machines "execution". What is Sean Carroll theology? If it is an Aristotelian, it has to provide the relevant non computationalist theory of mind to make it internally consistent. I can't insist more to study the mathematical theory of self-reference (Gödel, Löb, ...) and its relation with the theory of computability (Turing, Church, Post, Kleene, ...). Incompleteness makes basically the rationalist and mystic theory of Moderatus of Gades (and quite many variants) coherent, and somehow necessary. You have to extract physics from self-reference if you want benefits from the G - G* difference and manage the quanta and the qualia, the sounds and the senses, the justifiable sense and the probable theology which includes the natural science as a sort of limiting bord of the universal mind (the mind of the universal machine). Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I read before Sean Carroll still assumes the theology of Aristotle (the belief in "Primary Matter", or in its more modern epsitemological version "physicalism"), doesn't he? Bruno Evgenii P.S. Carroll's Game of Life: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
John, At the level of common sense everything looks clear. Yet, when we start to consider the question scientifically, something strange happens: the common sense answer disappears, yet there is no other answer. Evgenii Am 15.10.2016 um 17:51 schrieb John Mikes: OK, Evgenii, I am game. Do you have any closer(?) idea what *ALIVE* may mean? (and watch out, the next question maybe about *"ORGANISM") .* I would not go that deeply as to question a (pure???) religious concept. Mit vorzüglicher Anerkennung - (for 'best regards') John Mikes On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: John, No, I do not know what life is. I guess, nobody does. From what I have seen recently, I like: "Life is a pure religious concept, based on delusion that there is something in an organism that makes it alive." Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
On 15 Oct 2016, at 14:32, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: John, No, I do not know what life is. I guess, nobody does. From what I have seen recently, I like: "Life is a pure religious concept, based on delusion that there is something in an organism that makes it alive." That's consciousness, and if that is an illusion then everything is. Such a "definition" of life is eliminative materialism. With computationamism the material composing the organism can itself be described by a delusion of a universal person brought by an infinity of universal machine. We can say then that Matter is a pure religious concept based on the universal number delusion that there is something made up of something when there might plausibly be only a statistics on number's (sharable) dreams. Bruno Evgenii Am 14.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb John Mikes: Evgenii, do you have some idea about "LIFE", not the '*Game *of it'? Are there disclaimers that may lead to a STATE - callable 'life'? I would not rely entirely on the biology, life may be much more and not quite(?) moelcularly bound. How is 'mentality' involved? Changes??? (and I mean: self induced ones!) We have a very limited image of Mother Nature. Is 'life' more, or less than our limited knowledge of 'nature'? Please do not forget: I am an agnostic and believe in many many facets of the Entirety we know nothing about, yet supposedly exist beyond our world. Is a 'self-induced change' L I F E ? How induced? The question is exciting, I would learn more about it. John Mikes On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I have listened to Sean Carroll's Big Picture. His world view is actually similar to the Game of Life, well, the rules are a bit more complicated. Below is the link to the equation that he proposes. Carroll claims that his equation describes human beings as well. He takes a compatibilist position in respect to free will: free will is compatible with the determinism. At the same time, he says that his equation is the very strong intellectual achievement of the mankind. I thought that it could be possible to invent some sort of the Game of Life where during the system evolution one gets the rule of the game printed on the screen. In my view, this should be somewhat analogous to what Carroll says. Well, it is hard to say in what form the rules of the game should appear, but this after all gives some freedom to invent such a game. I should mention that I mean nothing fancy. "Explaining" is meant in pure epiphenomenal fashion: an equation spontaneously appeared on a sheet of paper, nothing else. What do you think? Could it be possible to invent a self-explaining Game of Life in that sense? Evgenii P.S. Carroll's Game of Life: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the- world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
On 11 Oct 2016, at 19:43, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I have listened to Sean Carroll's Big Picture. His world view is actually similar to the Game of Life, well, the rules are a bit more complicated. Below is the link to the equation that he proposes. Either it solves the measure problem, without using the quantum solution (easy!), but in that case it is Turing equivalent with "Universal Dovetailer", true (or provable) sigma_1 sentences, etc. And then the task remains to deduce it from qG and qG*, to get the genuine qualia relevant with the possible available quanta. Not yet got the time to look at this. Busy times. Carroll claims that his equation describes human beings as well. He takes a compatibilist position in respect to free will: free will is compatible with the determinism. Thanks God! At the same time, he says that his equation is the very strong intellectual achievement of the mankind. Now I have a doubt. I thought that it could be possible to invent some sort of the Game of Life where during the system evolution one gets the rule of the game printed on the screen. In my view, this should be somewhat analogous to what Carroll says. Well, it is hard to say in what form the rules of the game should appear, but this after all gives some freedom to invent such a game. I should mention that I mean nothing fancy. "Explaining" is meant in pure epiphenomenal fashion: an equation spontaneously appeared on a sheet of paper, nothing else. What do you think? Could it be possible to invent a self-explaining Game of Life in that sense? It is a standard result in mathematical logic that this is what happens already in elementary arithmetic. Even just he polynomial diophantine equation are like that. And we are always confronted to our first person self localization relatively to an infinity of "competing on your continuation" universal machines "execution". What is Sean Carroll theology? If it is an Aristotelian, it has to provide the relevant non computationalist theory of mind to make it internally consistent. I can't insist more to study the mathematical theory of self-reference (Gödel, Löb, ...) and its relation with the theory of computability (Turing, Church, Post, Kleene, ...). Incompleteness makes basically the rationalist and mystic theory of Moderatus of Gades (and quite many variants) coherent, and somehow necessary. You have to extract physics from self-reference if you want benefits from the G - G* difference and manage the quanta and the qualia, the sounds and the senses, the justifiable sense and the probable theology which includes the natural science as a sort of limiting bord of the universal mind (the mind of the universal machine). Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I read before Sean Carroll still assumes the theology of Aristotle (the belief in "Primary Matter", or in its more modern epsitemological version "physicalism"), doesn't he? Bruno Evgenii P.S. Carroll's Game of Life: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
OK, Evgenii, I am game. Do you have any closer(?) idea what *ALIVE* may mean? (and watch out, the next question maybe about *"ORGANISM") .* I would not go that deeply as to question a (pure???) religious concept. Mit vorzüglicher Anerkennung - (for 'best regards') John Mikes On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > John, > > No, I do not know what life is. I guess, nobody does. > > From what I have seen recently, I like: > > "Life is a pure religious concept, based on delusion that there is > something in an organism that makes it alive." > > Evgenii > > Am 14.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb John Mikes: > >> Evgenii, >> >> do you have some idea about "LIFE", not the '*Game *of it'? Are >> >> there disclaimers that may lead to a STATE - callable 'life'? I would >> not rely entirely on the biology, life may be much more and not >> quite(?) moelcularly bound. How is 'mentality' involved? Changes??? >> (and I mean: self induced ones!) We have a very limited image of >> Mother Nature. Is 'life' more, or less than our limited knowledge of >> 'nature'? Please do not forget: I am an agnostic and believe in many >> many facets of the Entirety we know nothing about, yet supposedly >> exist beyond our world. Is a 'self-induced change' L I F E ? How >> induced? >> >> The question is exciting, I would learn more about it. >> >> John Mikes >> >> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi >> wrote: >> >> I have listened to Sean Carroll's Big Picture. His world view is >>> actually similar to the Game of Life, well, the rules are a bit >>> more complicated. Below is the link to the equation that he >>> proposes. >>> >>> Carroll claims that his equation describes human beings as well. He >>> takes a compatibilist position in respect to free will: free will >>> is compatible with the determinism. At the same time, he says that >>> his equation is the very strong intellectual achievement of the >>> mankind. >>> >>> I thought that it could be possible to invent some sort of the Game >>> of Life where during the system evolution one gets the rule of the >>> game printed on the screen. In my view, this should be somewhat >>> analogous to what Carroll says. Well, it is hard to say in what >>> form the rules of the game should appear, but this after all gives >>> some freedom to invent such a game. >>> >>> I should mention that I mean nothing fancy. "Explaining" is meant >>> in pure epiphenomenal fashion: an equation spontaneously appeared >>> on a sheet of paper, nothing else. >>> >>> What do you think? Could it be possible to invent a self-explaining >>> Game of Life in that sense? >>> >>> Evgenii >>> >>> P.S. Carroll's Game of Life: >>> >>> http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the- >>> world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/ >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this >>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to >>> everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this >>> group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this >>> group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more >>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Self-explaining Game of Life?
John, No, I do not know what life is. I guess, nobody does. From what I have seen recently, I like: "Life is a pure religious concept, based on delusion that there is something in an organism that makes it alive." Evgenii Am 14.10.2016 um 21:08 schrieb John Mikes: Evgenii, do you have some idea about "LIFE", not the '*Game *of it'? Are there disclaimers that may lead to a STATE - callable 'life'? I would not rely entirely on the biology, life may be much more and not quite(?) moelcularly bound. How is 'mentality' involved? Changes??? (and I mean: self induced ones!) We have a very limited image of Mother Nature. Is 'life' more, or less than our limited knowledge of 'nature'? Please do not forget: I am an agnostic and believe in many many facets of the Entirety we know nothing about, yet supposedly exist beyond our world. Is a 'self-induced change' L I F E ? How induced? The question is exciting, I would learn more about it. John Mikes On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: I have listened to Sean Carroll's Big Picture. His world view is actually similar to the Game of Life, well, the rules are a bit more complicated. Below is the link to the equation that he proposes. Carroll claims that his equation describes human beings as well. He takes a compatibilist position in respect to free will: free will is compatible with the determinism. At the same time, he says that his equation is the very strong intellectual achievement of the mankind. I thought that it could be possible to invent some sort of the Game of Life where during the system evolution one gets the rule of the game printed on the screen. In my view, this should be somewhat analogous to what Carroll says. Well, it is hard to say in what form the rules of the game should appear, but this after all gives some freedom to invent such a game. I should mention that I mean nothing fancy. "Explaining" is meant in pure epiphenomenal fashion: an equation spontaneously appeared on a sheet of paper, nothing else. What do you think? Could it be possible to invent a self-explaining Game of Life in that sense? Evgenii P.S. Carroll's Game of Life: http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the- world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
