Re: Matter is forever

2019-07-17 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 




On 7/17/2019 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 16 Jul 2019, at 19:37, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 wrote:



On 7/16/2019 3:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

The consciousness of the universal machine is timeless, and spaceless. It is 
somehow 100% unfocused, without any attention, and it might plausibly be 
related to the highly dissociative state that some people seemed to describe in 
experience with some drug.

And yet you have to ask me how it is that your definition of consciousness does 
not comport with my experience of it??

You are right. I have to ask you exactly that.

It would have helped if  you could have been more specific.

Which one of the quasi-axioms does not met your experience?

1) Do you think it is false to be conscious for a conscious entity?


??  That a tautology, not a quasi-axiom.



Or

2) Do you think it is false that consciousness is (immediately, without asking 
an intellectual effort) knowable?


I'm not sure that's true.  I think consciousness is knowable on 
reflection: "Yes, I was conscious of that."  But I'm not sure what 
"immediately" means in this context.


Or

3) Do you think it is false that consciousness is not definable (without 
mentioning truth or god, …)


I don't know what that means.    If I say "Consciousness is an inner 
narrative." have I mentioned "truth" because I think that's a true 
statement?  And what god do you refer to?  Bal, Yawheh, Zeus, Loki, 
Thor,...  And what do they have to do with it?




Or

4) Do you think it is false that a conscious entity cannot prove or justify 
rationally that it is conscious?


Yes, I think this is false.  I think a conscious entity must be able to 
show a certain level of intelligence.




Or

5) Do you think that something important about consciousness is missing?


Yes.  It says nothing about being conscious OF something or acting 
intelligently.  Within that definition a rock could be conscious.


Brent

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Re: Matter is forever

2019-07-17 Thread 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
Self-reference is eternal. And then self-reference finds objects within 
itself, including time, time being an object like any other, like color 
red. And self-reference itself not being an object, it is not bound to the 
law of non-contradiction, so it can find multiple objects in itself at the 
same time. That's why consciousnesses such as ourselves are all objects 
that exist in self-reference.

On Monday, 15 July 2019 23:10:50 UTC+3, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>>
>> What does "matter" even mean ? Saying "matter is forever" is like saying 
>> "sdgasdga is forever". Both sentences carry the same amount of meaning.
>>
>
> Is consciousness bounded in time? Is it eternal? Or is it timeless?
>
> @philipthrift
>

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Re: Matter is forever

2019-07-17 Thread Bruno Marchal 


> On 16 Jul 2019, at 19:37, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/16/2019 3:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> The consciousness of the universal machine is timeless, and spaceless. It is 
>> somehow 100% unfocused, without any attention, and it might plausibly be 
>> related to the highly dissociative state that some people seemed to describe 
>> in experience with some drug. 
> 
> And yet you have to ask me how it is that your definition of consciousness 
> does not comport with my experience of it??

You are right. I have to ask you exactly that.

It would have helped if  you could have been more specific.

Which one of the quasi-axioms does not met your experience?

1) Do you think it is false to be conscious for a conscious entity?

Or

2) Do you think it is false that consciousness is (immediately, without asking 
an intellectual effort) knowable?

Or

3) Do you think it is false that consciousness is not definable (without 
mentioning truth or god, …)

Or 

4) Do you think it is false that a conscious entity cannot prove or justify 
rationally that it is conscious?

Or

5) Do you think that something important about consciousness is missing?

Bruno




> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: subjective experience

2019-07-17 Thread Telmo Menezes 


On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, at 00:37, Bruce Kellett wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>> On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC  wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote:
 
 I don’t understand well what you say. 
>>> 
>>> Nobody, including yourself, understands what you say generally.
>> 
>> 
>> Just tell me what you don’t understand specifically, and avoid ad hominem 
>> attack. It bores everybody, and distract from the thread.
> 
> That is just bullying, Bruno. You accuse everyone who disagrees with you of 
> ad hominem attacks.

That is a lie and you know it. And you should be ashamed of yourself for saying 
it. I challenge you to find one instance on this mailing list where Bruno 
accused anyone of ad hominem without having been directed insulted: "pee pee 
theories", "you don't make sense", "nobody knows what you're talking about", 
etc etc. I know you won't produce this example because it doesn't exist, and I 
also know that you will just avoid the topic and focus on the next insult / 
patronizing comment.

Well, I have been participating in this mailing list on and off for more than 
one decade, and more or less the only original ideas being discussed here come 
from Bruno. I have witnessed multi-year threads discussing what he is saying in 
great detail, so clearly some people must have some idea of what he is saying. 
Maybe the limitation is on your side?

You insist on rigor when you talk to Bruno (as you should), and then you side 
with someone who produced exactly zero arguments, that writes long and 
incoherent rants that aim only at insulting Bruno for personal reasons. Unlike 
John Clark for example. Say what you will, but I have never seen John Clark 
side with bullshit just because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Give me a 
break here. You are about as far from having a scientific attitude as I am from 
becoming the next Miss Universe.

Telmo.

> 
> Bruce 
> 

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Re: subjective experience

2019-07-17 Thread Quentin Anciaux 
Le mer. 17 juil. 2019 à 00:37, Bruce Kellett  a
écrit :

> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Bruno Marchal  wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jul 2019, at 13:44, PGC  wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, July 15, 2019 at 1:53:11 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I don’t understand well what you say.
>>>
>>
>> Nobody, including yourself, understands what you say generally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just tell me what you don’t understand specifically, and avoid ad hominem
>> attack. It bores everybody, and distract from the thread.
>>
>
> That is just bullying, Bruno. You accuse everyone who disagrees with you
> of ad hominem attacks.
>
> Bruce
>

What you're doing is in french "C'est l'hôpital qui se fout de la charité"
or "paille/poutre"... The bullies whining about being accused of bullying,
what a joke.

The PGC email is just a long email of insults, not a discussion, yours are
similar... what do you expect ? So either you reframe this into a
discussion or you continue to bully, insult and don't expect anything new
here.

Quentin

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> .
>


-- 
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
Batty/Rutger Hauer)

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