Re: Crash course on the Fall of Rome

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

I am thinking the Romans were genuinely poor at dealing with the Germanic 
tribes flowing in. On occasion somebody would rise to the top, even an 
Andalusian dude once became emperor, and Andaulusian's were old Kelts and not 
German Goths. They Romans did know how to treat people like crap, and this 
persisted past Christianity becoming, THE Roman religion. In other words it 
they were not like the characters in the Life Of Brian, winking and grinning 
over the Judeans or whomever else's ridiculousness. "Look on the bright side of 
life..." The Romans introduced crucifixion, as well as roads and aqueducts to 
the world.  Could the have have transcended their stupidity to survive? I say 
yes, BUT they would have had to eliminate slavery (thus expanding the economy), 
stopped drinking from lead goblets, and made some form of universal 
education-specifically via engineering and technology. Her, the great water 
mill at Barbegal in Gaul (France). Like I said, expand education, shrink 
slavery. Then, if "Herr-Man" was speaking Latin in public, German at home, no 
harm done. 


-Original Message-
From: Alan Grayson 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sun, Apr 19, 2020 5:59 pm
Subject: Crash course on the Fall of Rome

I believe the Roman army was well paid, had a prestigious status in society, 
and had superior tactics in battle, using superior weapons, and perhaps most 
important was able to fight as a unit. But as Rome expanded it didn't do a 
great job in assimilating "the barbarians". Over time they became incorporated 
in the Roman army, acquired its weapons, and perhaps most important learned its 
tactical methods for fighting as a unit. Thus, over time, the Roman army lost 
its advantage, which led to the demise of the Empire. How correct is my thesis? 
TIA, AG-- 
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Re: Vacuum energy

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 4:50:52 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 2:37:28 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> Sure the Casimir effect involves QED. The virtual photons are in a sense 
>> a set of gauge redundancies that can be removed, though one need the moduli 
>> from these redundancies. This still defines a form of quantum topological 
>> number. 
>>
>> LC
>>
>
> You refer to QED, but aren't wan der Waal forces non quantum? AG 
>

Van der Waal force is just a dipole-dipole interaction, such as what 
happens with water on the fluid surface. This can well enough be quantized.

LC
 

>
>> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:30:51 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

 The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the 
 modes between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the 
 difference in energy results in this slight pressure.

 LC

>>>
>>> From Wiki, below. Apparently there's an interpretation of the Casimir 
>>> effect which doesn't depend on vacuum energy, which, as I recall, is 
>>> Bruce's position on this issue. If no vacuum energy, then the claim that 
>>> photons and other elementary particles arose from the vacuum in the very 
>>> early universe is on dubious grounds. AG
>>>  
>>> Relativistic van der Waals force[edit 
>>> 
>>> ]
>>>
>>> Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe 
>>>  of MIT states that 
>>> "Casimir effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed 
>>> without reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum 
>>> forces between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) 
>>> between parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, 
>>> goes to zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of 
>>> alpha, corresponds to the alpha approaching infinity limit," and that "The 
>>> Casimir force is simply the (relativistic, retarded 
>>> ) van der Waals force 
>>> between the metal plates."[17] 
>>>  Casimir and 
>>> Polder's original paper used this method to derive the Casimir-Polder 
>>> force. In 1978, Schwinger, DeRadd, and Milton published a similar 
>>> derivation for the Casimir Effect between two parallel plates.[18] 
>>>  In fact, 
>>> the description in terms of van der Waals forces is the only correct 
>>> description from the fundamental microscopic perspective,[19] 
>>> [20] 
>>>  while other 
>>> descriptions of Casimir force are merely effective macroscopic descriptions.
>>>

 On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
> Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic 
> energy, and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG
>


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Re: Quantum Computers

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Now all is has to do is work far better than digital computing. 


-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Apr 16, 2020 4:59 pm
Subject: Quantum Computers

In today's issue of the journal Nature there is a article about a Silicon based 
Quantum Computer that operates at temperatures as high as 1.25 degrees Kelvin 
with an error rate of only 0.7%. That may seem pretty cold but previous Silicon 
based Quantum Computers, the type corporate investors like best, needed 0.01 
degrees Kelvin. Compared with that 1.25 is blistering hot.
Universal quantum logic in hot silicon qubits

John K Clark-- 
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Re: Change of pace; question on WW1 history / LC?

[Bruce Kellett]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 10:40 AM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> When the Vikings reigned supreme the western world was pretty much in
> disarray. The Europeans who took the hardest blows from Vikings were the
> Merovingian Franks of 500 to 700 CE. The Franks were not at any high point
> of great culture or civilization either. The Vikings established one long
> lasting kingdom in Normandy, which had a future big impact on Britain. The
> Vikings were a pretty rough group, and if you were a Frank living in a
> village that got taken by the Vikings, chances you would not live to see
> the next day. The Vikings also put an end to a fledgling literary
> renaissance in Ireland.
>

And yet the Vikings were responsible for one of the great flowerings of
medieval literature and culture in the Icelandic Sagas, which are as much
about the history of the Vikings (they were a brutal lot!) as of the
settlement of Iceland/Greenland/North America.

Bruce

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Re: Change of pace; question on WW1 history / LC?

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 1:20:10 PM UTC-5, Tomasz Rola wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 05:13:42AM -0700, Lawrence Crowell wrote: 
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > I really appreciate having access to your command of history. One 
> > > other thing while we're on the subject of European history. What 
> > > exactly is a "Slav"? I once looked it up on Wiki and the 
> > > definition or concept seemed unintelligible; vague at best. AG 
> > > 
> > 
> > A part of my heritage is Slavic. It really is more a language 
> > distinction.  Anyone who has Slavic heritage just means someone in 
> > their family tree spoke Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, 
> > Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian or Slovenian etc. It is not really a 
> > race, It is much the same distinction as Germanic, which can include 
> > Anglo-Saxons as much as what might be called the German-Saxons. 
>
> A nice and short explanation about word root "slav-" is being given 
> here: 
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs_(ethnonym)#Etymology 
>
> It boils down to come from "slovo" which in English means "a word". 
>

If you read on the connection between Slav and slave is made. The Vikings 
did capture people of the Rus and trade them as slaves. 
 

>
> By my understanding, another explanation may be by connecting to 
> "slava", which means "fame", more or less. There is a number of names 
> in Polish containing "-slav" ending: 
>
> Mscislav = famous avenger 
> Stanislav = stand up and say about him 
> Vodzislav = famous leader 
> Miroslav = famous around the world 
> Sviatoslav = as Miroslav 
>
> etc etc. If you are not famous, go away :-). 
>
> > Slavs have been considered less civilized than the rest of Europe, 
>
> Wrt barbarism, depends on point of view... 
>
> Vikings were widely known barbarians, but it takes a lot of guts and 
> curiosity to sit into a boat, sail for days in open ocean and come to 
> North America via the less traveled route. I mean, without even 
> knowing there was some America out there. Someone has got to be 
> first. 
>
> Perhaps they did not like "worldly" people's court intrigues so much. 
>

When the Vikings reigned supreme the western world was pretty much in 
disarray. The Europeans who took the hardest blows from Vikings were the 
Merovingian Franks of 500 to 700 CE. The Franks were not at any high point 
of great culture or civilization either. The Vikings established one long 
lasting kingdom in Normandy, which had a future big impact on Britain. The 
Vikings were a pretty rough group, and if you were a Frank living in a 
village that got taken by the Vikings, chances you would not live to see 
the next day. The Vikings also put an end to a fledgling literary 
renaissance in Ireland.
 

>
> > and define the more tattered eastern European region. It is the case 
> > that war and violence have been more severe in this region. Poland, 
> > part of my heritage, was treated largely the way a baby treats a 
> > diaper by Russia and Germany. 
>
> Well, Poland has a strange location. Anybody invading westward will 
> have to ride through Poland. And anybody invading eastward will have 
> to ride through... you guessed it, Poland. 
>
> Maybe we should start selling tickets or something. 
>
> > The first Slavic nation to reach some 
> > par with the rest of Europe was Bohemia, now Czechia. Then maybe 
> > next was Poland. Remember that Copernicus was Polish and Kepler 
> > Czechian. Even prior to that the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire 
>
> Also, Johannes Hevelius spent his life in Gdansk (sometimes called 
> Danzig, I guess the dual name was not a big deal until XIX century), at 
> that time belonging to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. 
>
> [...] 
> > BTW, Hungary is not Slavic, it is Uralic. That language, a language 
> > "invented by the Devil," is more related to Finnish, Turkish and 
> > even Mongolian. 
>
> [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists) 
> 
>  
> ] 
>
> -- 
> Regards, 
> Tomasz Rola 
>

I know Russian, though I have not used it in over 20 years, but Russian is 
easy to understand compared to Hungarian. People think German is hard, but 
it really is about as hard as Russian, and both are somewhat more difficult 
than French. To be honest my knowledge of languages has lead me to consider 
Spanish the most sensible language in the world. I spent some time in 
Budapest, and the language was difficult to work around, and I hardly 
remember any fragments of it. The difficulty is that to make a statement 
you have to mentally frame the whole thing completely before uttering. 
English is word/time ordered and with Russian you can order things as you 
want with declensions, but Hungarian is terribly tough. 

Your name sounds Hungarian. I found it curious how common the name Atilla 
was. 

The other tough language is Polish, which is a really deformed variant of 

Crash course on the Fall of Rome

[Alan Grayson]

I believe the Roman army was well paid, had a prestigious status in 
society, and had superior tactics in battle, using superior weapons, and 
perhaps most important was able to fight as a unit. But as Rome expanded it 
didn't do a great job in assimilating "the barbarians". Over time they 
became incorporated in the Roman army, acquired its weapons, and perhaps 
most important learned its tactical methods for fighting as a unit. Thus, 
over time, the Roman army lost its advantage, which led to the demise of 
the Empire. How correct is my thesis? TIA, AG

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Re: Vacuum energy

[Alan Grayson]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 2:37:28 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> Sure the Casimir effect involves QED. The virtual photons are in a sense a 
> set of gauge redundancies that can be removed, though one need the moduli 
> from these redundancies. This still defines a form of quantum topological 
> number. 
>
> LC
>

You refer to QED, but aren't wan der Waal forces non quantum? AG 

>
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:30:51 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>>
>>> The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the modes 
>>> between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the 
>>> difference in energy results in this slight pressure.
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>
>> From Wiki, below. Apparently there's an interpretation of the Casimir 
>> effect which doesn't depend on vacuum energy, which, as I recall, is 
>> Bruce's position on this issue. If no vacuum energy, then the claim that 
>> photons and other elementary particles arose from the vacuum in the very 
>> early universe is on dubious grounds. AG
>>  
>> Relativistic van der Waals force[edit 
>> 
>> ]
>>
>> Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe 
>>  of MIT states that "Casimir 
>> effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without 
>> reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum forces 
>> between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between 
>> parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, goes to 
>> zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of alpha, 
>> corresponds to the alpha approaching infinity limit," and that "The Casimir 
>> force is simply the (relativistic, retarded 
>> ) van der Waals force 
>> between the metal plates."[17] 
>>  Casimir and 
>> Polder's original paper used this method to derive the Casimir-Polder 
>> force. In 1978, Schwinger, DeRadd, and Milton published a similar 
>> derivation for the Casimir Effect between two parallel plates.[18] 
>>  In fact, the 
>> description in terms of van der Waals forces is the only correct 
>> description from the fundamental microscopic perspective,[19] 
>> [20] 
>>  while other 
>> descriptions of Casimir force are merely effective macroscopic descriptions.
>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:

 Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic energy, 
 and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG

>>>

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Re: Vacuum energy

[Lawrence Crowell]

Sure the Casimir effect involves QED. The virtual photons are in a sense a 
set of gauge redundancies that can be removed, though one need the moduli 
from these redundancies. This still defines a form of quantum topological 
number. 

LC

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:30:51 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the modes 
>> between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the 
>> difference in energy results in this slight pressure.
>>
>> LC
>>
>
> From Wiki, below. Apparently there's an interpretation of the Casimir 
> effect which doesn't depend on vacuum energy, which, as I recall, is 
> Bruce's position on this issue. If no vacuum energy, then the claim that 
> photons and other elementary particles arose from the vacuum in the very 
> early universe is on dubious grounds. AG
>  
> Relativistic van der Waals force[edit 
> 
> ]
>
> Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe 
>  of MIT states that "Casimir 
> effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without 
> reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum forces 
> between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between 
> parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, goes to 
> zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of alpha, 
> corresponds to the alpha approaching infinity limit," and that "The Casimir 
> force is simply the (relativistic, retarded 
> ) van der Waals force 
> between the metal plates."[17] 
>  Casimir and 
> Polder's original paper used this method to derive the Casimir-Polder 
> force. In 1978, Schwinger, DeRadd, and Milton published a similar 
> derivation for the Casimir Effect between two parallel plates.[18] 
>  In fact, the 
> description in terms of van der Waals forces is the only correct 
> description from the fundamental microscopic perspective,[19] 
> [20] 
>  while other 
> descriptions of Casimir force are merely effective macroscopic descriptions.
>
>>
>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>> Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic energy, 
>>> and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG
>>>
>>

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Re: Change of pace; question on WW1 history / LC?

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 05:13:42AM -0700, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 12:09:57 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 7:28:18 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> >>
> >> The Russians had a pan-Slavic ideology, where all the Slavic
> >> regions of the world would be under the tutelage of Russia, This
> >> included much of the Austro-Hungarian empire, where this was a
> >> sore point. Bohemia, now the Czech Republic, Slovakia and areas
> >> formerly within Yugoslavia and prior to that within the
> >> Austro-Hungarian empire were intended to be a part of a greater
> >> pan-Slavic domain. This required by geography influence over
> >> Romania and Hungary. This was finally achieved by the USSR in the
> >> end of WWII.
> >>
> >> There was also something called the "Great Game," where
> >> Afghanistan the Hindu Kush and that general region was contested
> >> by Russia and the British Empire. The current problems with
> >> Kashmir is a carry over from this, where a Muslim majority region
> >> is a part of Hindustan India. This is an elevated region that in
> >> a sense looks over India, and was the staging area for the Mogul
> >> invasion of India. The UK was loathe to having Russia perched in
> >> that position over the "Jewel in the Crown" that was the British
> >> Raj in India.
> >>
> >> Then finally there is the middle east or the Ottoman Empire and
> >> Persia.  Tsarist Russia hovered over these archaic and declining
> >> regions. Russia coveted the straits and a return of the "Truth
> >> Faith" of Orthodox Christianity to Constantinople, and this would
> >> give Russia more naval access. The Ottoman Empire was called the
> >> sick man of Europe, and the Crimean war was fought to keep Russia
> >> out of the straits of Dardanelles and Anatolia, and Russia worked
> >> to foster the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. Russia also
> >> sought increased influence in Persia.
> >>
> >> LC
> >>
> >
> > I really appreciate having access to your command of history. One
> > other thing while we're on the subject of European history. What
> > exactly is a "Slav"? I once looked it up on Wiki and the
> > definition or concept seemed unintelligible; vague at best. AG
> >
> 
> A part of my heritage is Slavic. It really is more a language
> distinction.  Anyone who has Slavic heritage just means someone in
> their family tree spoke Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Czech, Slovak,
> Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian or Slovenian etc. It is not really a
> race, It is much the same distinction as Germanic, which can include
> Anglo-Saxons as much as what might be called the German-Saxons.

A nice and short explanation about word root "slav-" is being given
here: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs_(ethnonym)#Etymology

It boils down to come from "slovo" which in English means "a word".

By my understanding, another explanation may be by connecting to
"slava", which means "fame", more or less. There is a number of names
in Polish containing "-slav" ending:

Mscislav = famous avenger
Stanislav = stand up and say about him
Vodzislav = famous leader
Miroslav = famous around the world
Sviatoslav = as Miroslav

etc etc. If you are not famous, go away :-).

> Slavs have been considered less civilized than the rest of Europe,

Wrt barbarism, depends on point of view...

Vikings were widely known barbarians, but it takes a lot of guts and
curiosity to sit into a boat, sail for days in open ocean and come to
North America via the less traveled route. I mean, without even
knowing there was some America out there. Someone has got to be
first.

Perhaps they did not like "worldly" people's court intrigues so much.

> and define the more tattered eastern European region. It is the case
> that war and violence have been more severe in this region. Poland,
> part of my heritage, was treated largely the way a baby treats a
> diaper by Russia and Germany.

Well, Poland has a strange location. Anybody invading westward will
have to ride through Poland. And anybody invading eastward will have
to ride through... you guessed it, Poland.

Maybe we should start selling tickets or something.

> The first Slavic nation to reach some
> par with the rest of Europe was Bohemia, now Czechia. Then maybe
> next was Poland. Remember that Copernicus was Polish and Kepler
> Czechian. Even prior to that the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire

Also, Johannes Hevelius spent his life in Gdansk (sometimes called
Danzig, I guess the dual name was not a big deal until XIX century), at
that time belonging to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

[...]
> BTW, Hungary is not Slavic, it is Uralic. That language, a language
> "invented by the Devil," is more related to Finnish, Turkish and
> even Mongolian.

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists) ]

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's 

Re: Vacuum energy

[Alan Grayson]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the modes 
> between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the 
> difference in energy results in this slight pressure.
>
> LC
>

>From Wiki, below. Apparently there's an interpretation of the Casimir 
effect which doesn't depend on vacuum energy, which, as I recall, is 
Bruce's position on this issue. If no vacuum energy, then the claim that 
photons and other elementary particles arose from the vacuum in the very 
early universe is on dubious grounds. AG
 
Relativistic van der Waals force[edit 

]

Alternatively, a 2005 paper by Robert Jaffe 
 of MIT states that "Casimir 
effects can be formulated and Casimir forces can be computed without 
reference to zero-point energies. They are relativistic, quantum forces 
between charges and currents. The Casimir force (per unit area) between 
parallel plates vanishes as alpha, the fine structure constant, goes to 
zero, and the standard result, which appears to be independent of alpha, 
corresponds to the alpha approaching infinity limit," and that "The Casimir 
force is simply the (relativistic, retarded 
) van der Waals force 
between the metal plates."[17] 
 Casimir and 
Polder's original paper used this method to derive the Casimir-Polder 
force. In 1978, Schwinger, DeRadd, and Milton published a similar 
derivation for the Casimir Effect between two parallel plates.[18] 
 In fact, the 
description in terms of van der Waals forces is the only correct 
description from the fundamental microscopic perspective,[19] 
[20] 
 while other 
descriptions of Casimir force are merely effective macroscopic descriptions.

>
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>> Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic energy, 
>> and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG
>>
>

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Re: Vacuum energy

[Lawrence Crowell]

The only thing that is measured is a difference in energy, and the modes 
between two parallel plates are different from those outside. So the 
difference in energy results in this slight pressure.

LC

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 10:40:45 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
> Does the Casimir effect establish that the vacuum has intrinsic energy, 
> and if so, what is its form? TIA, AG
>

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Re: Change of pace; question on WW1 history / LC?

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 12:54:20 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 11:09:57 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 7:28:18 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>>
>>> The Russians had a pan-Slavic ideology, where all the Slavic regions of 
>>> the world would be under the tutelage of Russia, This included much of the 
>>> Austro-Hungarian empire, where this was a sore point. Bohemia, now the 
>>> Czech Republic, Slovakia and areas formerly within Yugoslavia and prior to 
>>> that within the Austro-Hungarian empire were intended to be a part of a 
>>> greater pan-Slavic domain. This required by geography influence over 
>>> Romania and Hungary. This was finally achieved by the USSR in the end of 
>>> WWII.
>>>
>>> There was also something called the "Great Game," where Afghanistan the 
>>> Hindu Kush and that general region was contested by Russia and the British 
>>> Empire. The current problems with Kashmir is a carry over from this, where 
>>> a Muslim majority region is a part of Hindustan India. This is an elevated 
>>> region that in a sense looks over India, and was the staging area for the 
>>> Mogul invasion of India. The UK was loathe to having Russia perched in that 
>>> position over the "Jewel in the Crown" that was the British Raj in India.
>>>
>>> Then finally there is the middle east or the Ottoman Empire and Persia. 
>>> Tsarist Russia hovered over these archaic and declining regions. Russia 
>>> coveted the straits and a return of the "Truth Faith" of Orthodox 
>>> Christianity to Constantinople, and this would give Russia more naval 
>>> access. The Ottoman Empire was called the sick man of Europe, and the 
>>> Crimean war was fought to keep Russia out of the straits of Dardanelles and 
>>> Anatolia, and Russia worked to foster the disintegration of the Ottoman 
>>> Empire. Russia also sought increased influence in Persia. 
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>
>> I really appreciate having access to your command of history. One other 
>> thing while we're on the subject of European history. What exactly is a 
>> "Slav"? I once looked it up on Wiki and the definition or concept seemed 
>> unintelligible; vague at best. AG
>>
>
> Offhand, I think a "Slav" is likely defined on religious grounds; that is, 
> differentiated from other Christians as Roman Catholicism is differentiated 
> from Greek, Ukrainian, and Russian Orthodoxy. But what is *that* 
> difference if my basic assumption is sound? AG  
>

The Eastern Orthodox Church includes a lot of Slavs, but Greeks who are 
Orthodox are not Slavs, and Poles, Czechians, Slovenians and Croatians are 
Catholic for the most part. Saint Cyril went from Constantinople to 
Christianize the Rus, which were largely tribal people living in what is 
now Russia. The Rus were a mixture of Vikings, Goths, Tartars and other 
ethnic groups. The term Slav is connected to the word slave, and the 
Vikings did a sort of slave trade with people there. The Viking network was 
extensive and they traded all the way south and east with the Persians. The 
Viking sword was very strong based on Persian steel that was hardened with 
phosphorus. Cyril developed the Cyrillic alphabet based on Greek letters 
for the language largely spoken by the Rus. This lead to modern Russian, 
which is related to the language then in a way English today is related to 
pre-1066 ancient English.

LC
 

>
>>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 2:17:01 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:

 As you probably know, Barbara Tuchman was awarded a Pulitzer prize for 
 The Guns of August (1962). In a later work, The Proud Tower (1966), 
 focused 
 on European history in the two decades preceding WW1, she writes the 
 following in chapter 5 (emphasis mine);

 JOY, HOPE, SUSPICION—above all, astonishment—were the world’s 
 prevailing emotions when it learned on August 29, 1898, that the young 
 Czar 
 of Russia, Nicholas II, had issued a call to the nations to join in a 
 conference for the limitation of armaments. All the capitals were taken by 
 surprise by what Le Temps called “this flash of lightning out of the 
 North.” That the call should come from the mighty and *ever expanding 
 power* whom the other nations feared and who was still regarded, 
 despite its two hundred years of European veneer, as semi-barbaric, was 
 cause for dazed wonderment liberally laced with distrust. *The 
 pressure of Russian expansion had been felt from Alaska to India, from 
 Turkey to Poland.* “The Czar with an olive branch,” it was said in 
 Vienna, “that’s something new in history.” But his invitation touched a 
 chord aching to respond.

 What expansion is she referring to? TIA, AG




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Re: Change of pace; question on WW1 history / LC?

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 12:09:57 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 7:28:18 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>> The Russians had a pan-Slavic ideology, where all the Slavic regions of 
>> the world would be under the tutelage of Russia, This included much of the 
>> Austro-Hungarian empire, where this was a sore point. Bohemia, now the 
>> Czech Republic, Slovakia and areas formerly within Yugoslavia and prior to 
>> that within the Austro-Hungarian empire were intended to be a part of a 
>> greater pan-Slavic domain. This required by geography influence over 
>> Romania and Hungary. This was finally achieved by the USSR in the end of 
>> WWII.
>>
>> There was also something called the "Great Game," where Afghanistan the 
>> Hindu Kush and that general region was contested by Russia and the British 
>> Empire. The current problems with Kashmir is a carry over from this, where 
>> a Muslim majority region is a part of Hindustan India. This is an elevated 
>> region that in a sense looks over India, and was the staging area for the 
>> Mogul invasion of India. The UK was loathe to having Russia perched in that 
>> position over the "Jewel in the Crown" that was the British Raj in India.
>>
>> Then finally there is the middle east or the Ottoman Empire and Persia. 
>> Tsarist Russia hovered over these archaic and declining regions. Russia 
>> coveted the straits and a return of the "Truth Faith" of Orthodox 
>> Christianity to Constantinople, and this would give Russia more naval 
>> access. The Ottoman Empire was called the sick man of Europe, and the 
>> Crimean war was fought to keep Russia out of the straits of Dardanelles and 
>> Anatolia, and Russia worked to foster the disintegration of the Ottoman 
>> Empire. Russia also sought increased influence in Persia. 
>>
>> LC
>>
>
> I really appreciate having access to your command of history. One other 
> thing while we're on the subject of European history. What exactly is a 
> "Slav"? I once looked it up on Wiki and the definition or concept seemed 
> unintelligible; vague at best. AG
>

A part of my heritage is Slavic. It really is more a language distinction. 
Anyone who has Slavic heritage just means someone in their family tree 
spoke Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Bulgarian, Serbian, 
Croatian or Slovenian etc. It is not really a race, It is much the same 
distinction as Germanic, which can include Anglo-Saxons as much as what 
might be called the German-Saxons. 

Slavs have been considered less civilized than the rest of Europe, and 
define the more tattered eastern European region. It is the case that war 
and violence have been more severe in this region. Poland, part of my 
heritage, was treated largely the way a baby treats a diaper by Russia and 
Germany. The first Slavic nation to reach some par with the rest of Europe 
was Bohemia, now Czechia. Then maybe next was Poland. Remember that 
Copernicus was Polish and Kepler Czechian. Even prior to that the Emperor 
of the Holy Roman Empire Charles was Czechian. Russia was regarded as a 
barbaric howling human wilderness for a long time. My experience with 
Russia is that it is quite impoverished and there is an unusual deference 
for authority. 

BTW, Hungary is not Slavic, it is Uralic. That language, a language 
"invented by the Devil," is more related to Finnish, Turkish and even 
Mongolian.

LC
 

>
>> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 2:17:01 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>
>>> As you probably know, Barbara Tuchman was awarded a Pulitzer prize for 
>>> The Guns of August (1962). In a later work, The Proud Tower (1966), focused 
>>> on European history in the two decades preceding WW1, she writes the 
>>> following in chapter 5 (emphasis mine);
>>>
>>> JOY, HOPE, SUSPICION—above all, astonishment—were the world’s prevailing 
>>> emotions when it learned on August 29, 1898, that the young Czar of Russia, 
>>> Nicholas II, had issued a call to the nations to join in a conference for 
>>> the limitation of armaments. All the capitals were taken by surprise by 
>>> what Le Temps called “this flash of lightning out of the North.” That the 
>>> call should come from the mighty and *ever expanding power* whom the 
>>> other nations feared and who was still regarded, despite its two hundred 
>>> years of European veneer, as semi-barbaric, was cause for dazed wonderment 
>>> liberally laced with distrust. *The pressure of Russian expansion had 
>>> been felt from Alaska to India, from Turkey to Poland.* “The Czar with 
>>> an olive branch,” it was said in Vienna, “that’s something new in history.” 
>>> But his invitation touched a chord aching to respond.
>>>
>>> What expansion is she referring to? TIA, AG
>>>
>>>
>>>

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