Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Do what?
-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

 I don't know who said it.  Can you quote them?  Were they right?
 
 Brent
 
 On 7/15/2022 10:16 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 
 Who said I was against socialized medicine.  
 -Original Message-
 From: Brent Meeker 
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 7:27 pm
 Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure
 
   
 
 On 7/14/2022 1:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 
   Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money spent 
on emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are deemed unable to 
pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
 Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 
 Typical Republican whataboutism.  You're "just asking" about the accounting 
for some small factor, while you're staring at the evidence that we pay TWICE 
what other advanced nations pay and don't get as good a results.
 
 
  
  Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various nations, 
including legal immigrants and illegal.   
 
 It says right across the bottom "per capita".
 
 
  As of today for example, the governor of California signed in a new law 
mandating medical care for undocumented migrants. California will be the first 
state to offer health care to all undocumented immigrants (msn.com)  
 
 You don't know the difference between "mandating" and "offering"??  The 
premiums for Medi-Cal for Families are $13 for each child and no more than $39 
per family per month.  Newsom is offering it.
 
 Brent
 
 
  
  We'll get to see how this unfolds? 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Telmo Menezes 
 To: Everything List 
 Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 8:12 am
 Subject: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure
 
   
  #yiv9495516516 p.yiv9495516516MsoNormal, #yiv9495516516 
p.yiv9495516516MsoNoSpacing{margin:0;}  I am curious about what Americans in 
this list think about this:
  https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
  
  
  Telmo
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-15 Thread Brent Meeker 

I don't know who said it.  Can you quote them?  Were they right?

Brent

On 7/15/2022 10:16 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Who said I was against socialized medicine.

-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 7:27 pm
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure



On 7/14/2022 1:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money 
spent on emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are 
deemed unable to pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 
<https://www.webmd.com/special-reports/er-violations/20181129/patients-rights-in-the-emergency-room>


Typical Republican whataboutism.  You're "just asking" about the 
accounting for some small factor, while you're staring at the evidence 
that we pay TWICE what other advanced nations pay and don't get as 
good a results.




Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various 
nations, including legal immigrants and illegal.


It says right across the bottom "per capita".

As of today for example, the governor of California signed in a new 
law mandating medical care for undocumented migrants.
California will be the first state to offer health care to all 
undocumented immigrants (msn.com) 
<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/california-will-be-the-first-state-to-offer-health-care-to-all-undocumented-immigrants/ar-AAZ5A3T>


You don't know the difference between "mandating" and "offering"??  
The premiums for Medi-Cal for Families are $13 for each child and no 
more than $39 per family per month.  Newsom is offering it.


Brent



We'll get to see how this unfolds?

-Original Message-
From: Telmo Menezes  
<mailto:te...@telmomenezes.net>
To: Everything List  
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 8:12 am
Subject: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure


I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg <https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg>


Telmo
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-15 Thread Brent Meeker 
How are the standardized monthly payments and what they buy determined?  
I thought Germany had government negotiated prices for medical 
insurance.  That's the way insurance is for US Civil Servants, including 
Congress.  Insurance companies offer different plans and they are 
negotiated with the government to meet certain minimum standards.  Then 
civil service employees can select one of the plans based on what they 
cover, deductibles etc.  I've long thought that instead of Medicare, 
they should just have expanded the Civil Service plan to everyone which 
subsidies for poor and unemployed persons.


Brent

On 7/15/2022 8:06 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
In Germany there are standardized monthly payments (and assistance for 
those who cannot pay it), but both insurers and health care providers 
have to compete for the taxpayers "business". This prevents people 
from being finantially ruined by a health crises (or incapable of 
obtaining treatment), while at the same time promoting competition 
between providers. I think it is a good system, and perhaps 
sufficiently far away from "communism" to be acceptable in the US. Or 
perhaps not.


Telmo


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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Who said I was against socialized medicine. 
-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 7:27 pm
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

 
 
 On 7/14/2022 1:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 
Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money spent on 
emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are deemed unable to 
pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
 Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 
 Typical Republican whataboutism.  You're "just asking" about the accounting 
for some small factor, while you're staring at the evidence that we pay TWICE 
what other advanced nations pay and don't get as good a results.
 
 
  
  Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various nations, 
including legal immigrants and illegal.   
 
 It says right across the bottom "per capita".
 
 
  As of today for example, the governor of California signed in a new law 
mandating medical care for undocumented migrants. California will be the first 
state to offer health care to all undocumented immigrants (msn.com)  
 
 You don't know the difference between "mandating" and "offering"??  The 
premiums for Medi-Cal for Families are $13 for each child and no more than $39 
per family per month.  Newsom is offering it.
 
 Brent
 
 
  
  We'll get to see how this unfolds? 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Telmo Menezes 
 To: Everything List 
 Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 8:12 am
 Subject: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure
 
  
#yiv1078169373 p.yiv1078169373MsoNormal, #yiv1078169373 
p.yiv1078169373MsoNoSpacing{margin:0;} I am curious about what Americans in 
this list think about this:
  https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
  
  
  Telmo
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-15 Thread Telmo Menezes 


Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 15:38, schrieb Jason Resch:
> The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term 
> "healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".
> 
> Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.
> 
> This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more 
> intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a 
> lot of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse 
> health outcomes than healthier populations.
> 
> The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading some 
> statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could reduce 
> government health spending by 400 billion annually.
> 
> Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor health 
> and shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative care, 
> subsidized cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little vacation, 
> the opioid epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)

Another thing that might contribute to this is the degree of car-centrism in 
the US. One of my culture shocks there was noticing how easy it is to not be in 
walking distance from anywhere, and how you can get away with basically not 
walking almost at all.

> And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high costs 
> for the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment 
> facilities, prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs, 
> administrative and insurance overheads, lack of price transparency, emergency 
> rooms as default care facilities for those who can't afford doctor 
> appointments, medical malpractice insurance and high rates of lawsuits, 
> multi-billion dollar cost of new drug development, etc.)
> 
> A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem from a 
> misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to 
> incarcerate more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working 
> towards a healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their 
> services). If we could design a reward system where the decision makers in 
> power were rewarded based on the health and well-being of the population as a 
> whole, I think things would look very different.

In Germany there are standardized monthly payments (and assistance for those 
who cannot pay it), but both insurers and health care providers have to compete 
for the taxpayers "business". This prevents people from being finantially 
ruined by a health crises (or incapable of obtaining treatment), while at the 
same time promoting competition between providers. I think it is a good system, 
and perhaps sufficiently far away from "communism" to be acceptable in the US. 
Or perhaps not.

Telmo

> Jason
> 
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:
>> __
>> Hi Terren,
>> 
>> You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health 
>> situation can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people 
>> refusing to call an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the 
>> bill. I think that another country were this is the case is South Korea. A 
>> colleague told me that it is common there for people there to invest in a 
>> second home, to use it to pay for the health bill in case they get cancer or 
>> something serious like that.
>> 
>> I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with this, 
>> when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.
>> 
>> Telmo
>> 
>> Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
>>> Hi Telmo,
>>> 
>>> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries, 
>>> as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and 
>>> assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care 
>>> here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti 
>>> competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>>> 
>>> Terren
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes  
>>> wrote:
 __
 I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
 https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
 
 
 
 Telmo
 
 
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 .
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Brent Meeker 



On 7/14/2022 1:11 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money 
spent on emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are 
deemed unable to pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 
<https://www.webmd.com/special-reports/er-violations/20181129/patients-rights-in-the-emergency-room>


Typical Republican whataboutism.  You're "just asking" about the 
accounting for some small factor, while you're staring at the evidence 
that we pay TWICE what other advanced nations pay and don't get as good 
a results.




Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various 
nations, including legal immigrants and illegal.


It says right across the bottom "per capita".

As of today for example, the governor of California signed in a new 
law mandating medical care for undocumented migrants.
California will be the first state to offer health care to all 
undocumented immigrants (msn.com) 
<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/california-will-be-the-first-state-to-offer-health-care-to-all-undocumented-immigrants/ar-AAZ5A3T>


You don't know the difference between "mandating" and "offering"?? The 
premiums for Medi-Cal for Families are $13 for each child and no more 
than $39 per family per month.  Newsom is offering it.


Brent



We'll get to see how this unfolds?

-Original Message-
From: Telmo Menezes 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 8:12 am
Subject: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg


Telmo
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Diabetic smokers can last a long while, long enough to make it profitable. Plus 
in China they have both modern medicine and traditional medicine to choose 
from. For adult onset diabetes, it has to run up against all the walking the 
all the Han do, to work, and market, etc. That limits the damage of the 
sedentary lifestyle by many nations. 


-Original Message-
From: Dirk Van Niekerk 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 2:30 pm
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

I assume you meant this tongue in cheek, but that would be a terrible system.  
If I were a doctor in China I would make sure to only take on young healthy 
patients.  No obese diabetic smokers for sure.
Dirk

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 8:13:27 AM UTC-7 Jason wrote:

That's encouraging. Thanks for telling me.
I heard a claim, not sure if it's true, but that in China people pay their 
doctor for every month that they are healthy.
Makes sense to me. 
Jason 
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Very good. Thanks, Dirk. 
I am more about the advances to be obtained if we are able to push medicine and 
tissue engineering much faster? If we obtain advances, the money will follow. 



-Original Message-
From: Dirk Van Niekerk 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

1) The data considers all costs including emergency room visits for all 
countries2) The denominator is population census data which in most OECD 
countries would include refugees and illegal aliens.
Dirk

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 1:11:08 PM UTC-7 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money spent on 
emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are deemed unable to 
pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 


Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various nations, 
including legal immigrants and illegal. As of today for example, the governor 
of California signed in a new law mandating medical care for undocumented 
migrants.California will be the first state to offer health care to all 
undocumented immigrants (msn.com)
We'll get to see how this unfolds? 



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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Dirk Van Niekerk 
1) The data considers all costs including emergency room visits for all 
countries
2) The denominator is population census data which in most OECD countries 
would include refugees and illegal aliens.

Dirk

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 1:11:08 PM UTC-7 spudb...@aol.com wrote:

> Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money spent 
> on emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are deemed 
> unable to pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
> Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com) 
> 
>  
>

> Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various nations, 
> including legal immigrants and illegal. As of today for example, the 
> governor of California signed in a new law mandating medical care for 
> undocumented migrants.
> California will be the first state to offer health care to all 
> undocumented immigrants (msn.com) 
> 
>
> We'll get to see how this unfolds? 
>
>
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
The main thing is that whatever goes for medical R is insufficient. 


-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 9:38 am
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term 
"healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".
Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.
This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more 
intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a lot 
of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse health 
outcomes than healthier populations.
The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading some 
statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could reduce 
government health spending by 400 billion annually.
Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor health and 
shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative care, subsidized 
cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little vacation, the opioid 
epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)
And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high costs for 
the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment facilities, 
prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs, administrative and 
insurance overheads, lack of price transparency, emergency rooms as default 
care facilities for those who can't afford doctor appointments, medical 
malpractice insurance and high rates of lawsuits, multi-billion dollar cost of 
new drug development, etc.)
A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem from a 
misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to incarcerate 
more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working towards a 
healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their services). If we 
could design a reward system where the decision makers in power were rewarded 
based on the health and well-being of the population as a whole, I think things 
would look very different.
Jason
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:

Hi Terren,

You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health situation 
can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people refusing to call 
an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the bill. I think that 
another country were this is the case is South Korea. A colleague told me that 
it is common there for people there to invest in a second home, to use it to 
pay for the health bill in case they get cancer or something serious like that.

I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with this, 
when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.

Telmo

Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:

Hi Telmo,

I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries, as 
that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and assuming 
the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care here is a worst 
case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti competitive practices and 
perverse incentives. But you knew that!

Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:


I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg



Telmo

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
I have also heard Jason, that if the patient dies, no bills are charged. 

-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 11:13 am
Subject: Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

That's encouraging. Thanks for telling me.
I heard a claim, not sure if it's true, but that in China people pay their 
doctor for every month that they are healthy.
Makes sense to me. 
Jason
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 10:14 AM Terren Suydam  wrote:

Hi Jason,
One encouraging innovation that is beginning to pick up steam is 
subscription-based health care, and insurance companies are starting to come on 
board. You pay a monthly fee and get unlimited access to your primary-care 
doctor. It's a huge improvement because the incentives are much better aligned 
- in this model, the doctor's office is incentivized to keep people out of the 
office. In the existing model it's the opposite.
Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 9:38 AM Jason Resch  wrote:

The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term 
"healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".
Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.
This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more 
intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a lot 
of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse health 
outcomes than healthier populations.
The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading some 
statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could reduce 
government health spending by 400 billion annually.
Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor health and 
shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative care, subsidized 
cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little vacation, the opioid 
epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)
And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high costs for 
the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment facilities, 
prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs, administrative and 
insurance overheads, lack of price transparency, emergency rooms as default 
care facilities for those who can't afford doctor appointments, medical 
malpractice insurance and high rates of lawsuits, multi-billion dollar cost of 
new drug development, etc.)
A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem from a 
misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to incarcerate 
more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working towards a 
healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their services). If we 
could design a reward system where the decision makers in power were rewarded 
based on the health and well-being of the population as a whole, I think things 
would look very different.
Jason
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:

Hi Terren,

You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health situation 
can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people refusing to call 
an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the bill. I think that 
another country were this is the case is South Korea. A colleague told me that 
it is common there for people there to invest in a second home, to use it to 
pay for the health bill in case they get cancer or something serious like that.

I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with this, 
when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.

Telmo

Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:

Hi Telmo,

I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries, as 
that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and assuming 
the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care here is a worst 
case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti competitive practices and 
perverse incentives. But you knew that!

Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:


I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg



Telmo

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Well assuming the accuracy of the graph, I would factor in the money spent on 
emergency room visits, which since the 1980's those who are deemed unable to 
pay for treatment medical bills are written off.
Your Rights in the Emergency Room (webmd.com)
Also, I wonder whether one factors in population size of various nations, 
including legal immigrants and illegal. As of today for example, the governor 
of California signed in a new law mandating medical care for undocumented 
migrants.California will be the first state to offer health care to all 
undocumented immigrants (msn.com)
We'll get to see how this unfolds? 

-Original Message-
From: Telmo Menezes 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Jul 14, 2022 8:12 am
Subject: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

#yiv7228192109 p.yiv7228192109MsoNormal, #yiv7228192109 
p.yiv7228192109MsoNoSpacing{margin:0;}I am curious about what Americans in this 
list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg


Telmo
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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Dirk Van Niekerk 
I assume you meant this tongue in cheek, but that would be a terrible 
system.  If I were a doctor in China I would make sure to only take on 
young healthy patients.  No obese diabetic smokers for sure.

Dirk

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 8:13:27 AM UTC-7 Jason wrote:

> That's encouraging. Thanks for telling me.
>
> I heard a claim, not sure if it's true, but that in China people pay their 
> doctor for every month that they are healthy.
>
> Makes sense to me. 
>
> Jason 
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Dirk Van Niekerk 
The original source is here:
https://ourworldindata.org/us-life-expectancy-low

The source of healthcare expenditure data is the WHO:
https://apps.who.int/nha/database

Dirk

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 5:34:18 AM UTC-7 Terren Suydam wrote:

> Hi Telmo,
>
> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries, 
> as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and 
> assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care 
> here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti 
> competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>
> Terren
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes  
> wrote:
>
>> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
>> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> Telmo
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Jason Resch 
That's encouraging. Thanks for telling me.

I heard a claim, not sure if it's true, but that in China people pay their
doctor for every month that they are healthy.

Makes sense to me. 

Jason

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 10:14 AM Terren Suydam 
wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> One encouraging innovation that is beginning to pick up steam is
> subscription-based health care, and insurance companies are starting to
> come on board. You pay a monthly fee and get unlimited access to your
> primary-care doctor. It's a huge improvement because the incentives are
> much better aligned - in this model, the doctor's office is incentivized to
> keep people *out* of the office. In the existing model it's the opposite.
>
> Terren
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 9:38 AM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
>> The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term
>> "healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".
>>
>> Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.
>>
>> This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more
>> intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a
>> lot of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse
>> health outcomes than healthier populations.
>>
>> The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading
>> some statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could
>> reduce government health spending by 400 billion annually.
>>
>> Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor
>> health and shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative
>> care, subsidized cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little
>> vacation, the opioid epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)
>>
>> And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high
>> costs for the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment
>> facilities, prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs,
>> administrative and insurance overheads, lack of price transparency,
>> emergency rooms as default care facilities for those who can't afford
>> doctor appointments, medical malpractice insurance and high rates of
>> lawsuits, multi-billion dollar cost of new drug development, etc.)
>>
>> A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem
>> from a misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to
>> incarcerate more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working
>> towards a healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their
>> services). If we could design a reward system where the decision makers in
>> power were rewarded based on the health and well-being of the population as
>> a whole, I think things would look very different.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Terren,
>>>
>>> You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health
>>> situation can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people
>>> refusing to call an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the
>>> bill. I think that another country were this is the case is South Korea. A
>>> colleague told me that it is common there for people there to invest in a
>>> second home, to use it to pay for the health bill in case they get cancer
>>> or something serious like that.
>>>
>>> I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with
>>> this, when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.
>>>
>>> Telmo
>>>
>>> Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
>>>
>>> Hi Telmo,
>>>
>>> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between
>>> countries, as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an
>>> American and assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all.
>>> Health care here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of
>>> anti competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>>>
>>> Terren
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
>>> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Telmo
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from

Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Terren Suydam 
Hi Telmo,

I wouldn't say that people are ok with this. Even the people who are
against universal health care recognize how broken the system is. I'd say
it's more of a learned-helplessness kind of thing - there isn't much the
average person can do about it.

Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes 
wrote:

> Hi Terren,
>
> You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health
> situation can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people
> refusing to call an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the
> bill. I think that another country were this is the case is South Korea. A
> colleague told me that it is common there for people there to invest in a
> second home, to use it to pay for the health bill in case they get cancer
> or something serious like that.
>
> I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with
> this, when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.
>
> Telmo
>
> Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
>
> Hi Telmo,
>
> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries,
> as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and
> assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care
> here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti
> competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>
> Terren
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes 
> wrote:
>
>
> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>
>
>
> Telmo
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
> 
> .
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
> .
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Terren Suydam 
Hi Jason,

One encouraging innovation that is beginning to pick up steam is
subscription-based health care, and insurance companies are starting to
come on board. You pay a monthly fee and get unlimited access to your
primary-care doctor. It's a huge improvement because the incentives are
much better aligned - in this model, the doctor's office is incentivized to
keep people *out* of the office. In the existing model it's the opposite.

Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 9:38 AM Jason Resch  wrote:

> The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term
> "healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".
>
> Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.
>
> This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more
> intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a
> lot of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse
> health outcomes than healthier populations.
>
> The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading
> some statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could
> reduce government health spending by 400 billion annually.
>
> Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor
> health and shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative
> care, subsidized cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little
> vacation, the opioid epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)
>
> And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high costs
> for the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment
> facilities, prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs,
> administrative and insurance overheads, lack of price transparency,
> emergency rooms as default care facilities for those who can't afford
> doctor appointments, medical malpractice insurance and high rates of
> lawsuits, multi-billion dollar cost of new drug development, etc.)
>
> A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem
> from a misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to
> incarcerate more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working
> towards a healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their
> services). If we could design a reward system where the decision makers in
> power were rewarded based on the health and well-being of the population as
> a whole, I think things would look very different.
>
> Jason
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Terren,
>>
>> You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health
>> situation can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people
>> refusing to call an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the
>> bill. I think that another country were this is the case is South Korea. A
>> colleague told me that it is common there for people there to invest in a
>> second home, to use it to pay for the health bill in case they get cancer
>> or something serious like that.
>>
>> I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with
>> this, when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.
>>
>> Telmo
>>
>> Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
>>
>> Hi Telmo,
>>
>> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries,
>> as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and
>> assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care
>> here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti
>> competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>>
>> Terren
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
>> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> Telmo
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>

Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Jason Resch 
The graph begins to make a little more sense if one replaces the term
"healthcare" with a more reality-representing term: "sickcare".

Healthy people don't need to spend a lot of money on their health.

This doesn't explain it all, but the relationship begins to become more
intuitive when viewed this way: an unhealthy (but wealthy enough to spend a
lot of money) population will spend more on sickcare, and will have worse
health outcomes than healthier populations.

The US is one of the most obese nations on this chart. I recall reading
some statistic that said if we returned to 1975 obesity levels we could
reduce government health spending by 400 billion annually.

Of course obesity is just one aspect of many that might lead to poor health
and shorter life expectancy in the US. (Insufficient preventative care,
subsidized cheap and unhealthy foods, high stress jobs with little
vacation, the opioid epidemic, prevalence of dysfunctional schools, etc.)

And all this is before exploring any of the many reasons we pay high costs
for the sickcare we get (rationing of licensed doctors and treatment
facilities, prohibitions on reimporting cheaply exported drugs,
administrative and insurance overheads, lack of price transparency,
emergency rooms as default care facilities for those who can't afford
doctor appointments, medical malpractice insurance and high rates of
lawsuits, multi-billion dollar cost of new drug development, etc.)

A lot has to be fixed. Unfortunately, the root of the problem may stem from
a misalignment of objectives. In the same way private prisons work to
incarcerate more prisoners, for-profit sickcare is discouraged from working
towards a healthier population (which doesn't need as much of their
services). If we could design a reward system where the decision makers in
power were rewarded based on the health and well-being of the population as
a whole, I think things would look very different.

Jason

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 8:45 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:

> Hi Terren,
>
> You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health
> situation can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people
> refusing to call an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the
> bill. I think that another country were this is the case is South Korea. A
> colleague told me that it is common there for people there to invest in a
> second home, to use it to pay for the health bill in case they get cancer
> or something serious like that.
>
> I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with
> this, when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.
>
> Telmo
>
> Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
>
> Hi Telmo,
>
> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries,
> as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and
> assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care
> here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti
> competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
>
> Terren
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes 
> wrote:
>
>
> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>
>
>
> Telmo
>
>
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> 
> .
>
>
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> 
> .
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>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Telmo Menezes 
Hi Terren,

You are right, I know that. I have the impression that a bad health situation 
can ruin people in the US. I have heard of stories of people refusing to call 
an ambulance after a serious accident, for fear of the bill. I think that 
another country were this is the case is South Korea. A colleague told me that 
it is common there for people there to invest in a second home, to use it to 
pay for the health bill in case they get cancer or something serious like that.

I guess what perplexes is that people seem to be more or less ok with this, 
when there is overwhelming evidence that a better systems is possible.

Telmo

Am Do, 14. Jul 2022, um 14:34, schrieb Terren Suydam:
> Hi Telmo,
> 
> I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries, as 
> that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and assuming 
> the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care here is a 
> worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti competitive practices 
> and perverse incentives. But you knew that!
> 
> Terren
> 
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes  wrote:
>> __
>> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
>> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Telmo
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> 
> -- 
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>  
> .

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Terren Suydam 
Hi Telmo,

I’d want to know how they adjust for price differences between countries,
as that could be a subtle way to introduce bias. But as an American and
assuming the above is kosher, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Health care
here is a worst case scenario. It’s the result of decades of anti
competitive practices and perverse incentives. But you knew that!

Terren

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 8:13 AM Telmo Menezes 
wrote:

> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>
>
>
> Telmo
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/724092fd-48a5-44ed-a3c5-7ec8aa38c3fe%40www.fastmail.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Lawrence Crowell 
It is something I am reasonably aware of.

LC

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 7:13:20 AM UTC-5 telmo wrote:

> I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
> https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg
>
>
> Telmo
>

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Life expectancy vs. Health expenditure

2022-07-14 Thread Telmo Menezes 
I am curious about what Americans in this list think about this:
https://i.redd.it/qrjgb2aakhb91.jpg


Telmo

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