Re: The Uses of a Screwdriver Cannot be Listed Algorithmically

[Bruno Marchal]

On 20 Apr 2013, at 22:04, John Mikes wrote:

Evgeniy: although I had my disagreements with Stuart dating back to  
prior to the 1997 Nashua Conference, I have to agree here.
Turing was a great mind, his ideas leading to our (embryonic,  
binary) computing machine are great, it is not the ultimate word.

I wonder how much Bruno's (Loeb's) universal machine is such?
So far we have no better one, the Turingesque contraption is our  
miraculous panacea to lots of things, but it may have its  
limitations and disadvantages.

Screwdriver, or not.



With such thesis, universal machine are "really" the most universal  
non trivial entity. Then they are quite limited, and that is why a  
universal machine, when looking inward, will build an infinity of more  
and more complex (and diverging) possible theories to understand their  
behavior. And she has disadvantage, they can crash, and they can't  
know exactly what that mean, so some of the theories that they will  
build will have a religious nature.


Bruno





John M


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi   
wrote:
I am reading now Beyond Mechanism: Putting Life back into Biology.  
In Foreword: Evolution beyond Newton, Darwin, and Entailing Law,  
Stuart A. Kauffman writes:


p. 9 "Here is the first 'strange' step. Can you name all the uses of  
a screwdriver, alone, or with other objects or process? Well, screw  
in a a screw, open a paint can, wedge open a door, wedge closed a  
door, scrape putty off a window, stab an assailant, be an objet  
d'art, tied to a stick a fish spear, the spear rented to 'natives'  
for a 5 percent fish catch return becomes a new business, and so on.  
I think that we all are convinced that the following two statements  
are true: (1) the number of uses of a screw driver is indefinite;  
and (2) unlike the integers which can be ordered, there is no  
natural ordering of the uses of a screw driver. The uses are  
unordered. But these two claims entail that there is no 'Turing  
Effective Procedure' to list all the uses of a screwdriver alone or  
with other objects or processes. In short, there is no algorithm to  
list all the uses of a screwdriver."


Any comment?

Evgenii

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Re: The Uses of a Screwdriver Cannot be Listed Algorithmically

[Bruno Marchal]

On 20 Apr 2013, at 21:38, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

I am reading now Beyond Mechanism: Putting Life back into Biology.  
In Foreword: Evolution beyond Newton, Darwin, and Entailing Law,  
Stuart A. Kauffman writes:


p. 9 "Here is the first 'strange' step. Can you name all the uses of  
a screwdriver, alone, or with other objects or process? Well, screw  
in a a screw, open a paint can, wedge open a door, wedge closed a  
door, scrape putty off a window, stab an assailant, be an objet  
d'art, tied to a stick a fish spear, the spear rented to 'natives'  
for a 5 percent fish catch return becomes a new business, and so on.  
I think that we all are convinced that the following two statements  
are true: (1) the number of uses of a screw driver is indefinite;  
and (2) unlike the integers which can be ordered, there is no  
natural ordering of the uses of a screw driver. The uses are  
unordered. But these two claims entail that there is no 'Turing  
Effective Procedure' to list all the uses of a screwdriver alone or  
with other objects or processes. In short, there is no algorithm to  
list all the uses of a screwdriver."


Any comment?


That is not an argument for putting life back into biology, but for  
putting life out of computers or arithmetic, based on a lack of  
knowledge in computer science. Why? because most properties of  
programs and machines are beyond effective procedures. For example,  
given an arbitrary program, there is not effective procedure to know  
if it computes x+y or not.
More similar to this screwdriver problem: there is no effective  
procedure to decide what an arbitrary universal machine will do with  
some code.
Machines already know that most of machines' properties analysis are  
*far* beyond machines. Like us, they can make bet and theories, but  
none will be complete.


Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: The Uses of a Screwdriver Cannot be Listed Algorithmically

[John Mikes]

Evgeniy: although I had my disagreements with Stuart dating back to prior
to the 1997 Nashua Conference, I have to agree here.
Turing was a great mind, his ideas leading to our (embryonic, binary)
computing machine are great, it is not the ultimate word.
I wonder how much Bruno's (Loeb's) universal machine is such?
So far we have no better one, the Turingesque contraption is our miraculous
panacea to lots of things, but it may have its limitations and
disadvantages.
Screwdriver, or not.

John M


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi  wrote:

> I am reading now Beyond Mechanism: Putting Life back into Biology. In
> Foreword: Evolution beyond Newton, Darwin, and Entailing Law, Stuart A.
> Kauffman writes:
>
> p. 9 "Here is the first 'strange' step. Can you name all the uses of a
> screwdriver, alone, or with other objects or process? Well, screw in a a
> screw, open a paint can, wedge open a door, wedge closed a door, scrape
> putty off a window, stab an assailant, be an objet d'art, tied to a stick a
> fish spear, the spear rented to 'natives' for a 5 percent fish catch return
> becomes a new business, and so on. I think that we all are convinced that
> the following two statements are true: (1) the number of uses of a screw
> driver is indefinite; and (2) unlike the integers which can be ordered,
> there is no natural ordering of the uses of a screw driver. The uses are
> unordered. But these two claims entail that there is no 'Turing Effective
> Procedure' to list all the uses of a screwdriver alone or with other
> objects or processes. In short, there is no algorithm to list all the uses
> of a screwdriver."
>
> Any comment?
>
> Evgenii
>
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>
>
>

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The Uses of a Screwdriver Cannot be Listed Algorithmically

[Evgenii Rudnyi]

I am reading now Beyond Mechanism: Putting Life back into Biology. In 
Foreword: Evolution beyond Newton, Darwin, and Entailing Law, Stuart A. 
Kauffman writes:


p. 9 "Here is the first 'strange' step. Can you name all the uses of a 
screwdriver, alone, or with other objects or process? Well, screw in a a 
screw, open a paint can, wedge open a door, wedge closed a door, scrape 
putty off a window, stab an assailant, be an objet d'art, tied to a 
stick a fish spear, the spear rented to 'natives' for a 5 percent fish 
catch return becomes a new business, and so on. I think that we all are 
convinced that the following two statements are true: (1) the number of 
uses of a screw driver is indefinite; and (2) unlike the integers which 
can be ordered, there is no natural ordering of the uses of a screw 
driver. The uses are unordered. But these two claims entail that there 
is no 'Turing Effective Procedure' to list all the uses of a screwdriver 
alone or with other objects or processes. In short, there is no 
algorithm to list all the uses of a screwdriver."


Any comment?

Evgenii

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