[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
Barry, you've jumped the shark; you've lost touch with reality. You're projecting your own inner demons onto Shemp and me. YOU NEED TO GET SOME HELP. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter wrote: > > > > Very interesting find, Vaj. BPD patients can be emotionally > > draining to work with. Its as if they are emotionally stuck > > a 3 years of age in interpersonal relationships. > > > > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Vaj wrote: > > From: Vaj > > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality > > Disorder discorvered > > > > Interesting that the findings center around the insula, the > > part of the brain responsible for feelings of disgust. Thus > > BPD sufferers lack "gut feeling" in judgments, a basic human > > instinct. > > Thanks for bringing this up, Vaj and Peter. > > I was unaware of the description of Borderline > Personality Disorder before, and now that I'm > not and have looked into it, I'm finding it > remarkably useful when examining the posts of > a few people here on Fairfield Life. > > For example, look at the list of symptoms of > this disorder, and then look at this week's > Post Count so far, in which a couple of poster's > attempts to get attention -- ANY attention -- are > becoming more and more frantic with every passing > minute. > > * Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment > * A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships > characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization > and devaluation > * Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable > self-image or sense of self > * Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood > (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety > usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few > days) > * Chronic feelings of emptiness [Please note Shemp's > recent admission of how lonely his is] > * Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger > (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent > physical fights) [Please note Judy's attempt, seemingly > out of the blue, to pick a fight with Hugo/Richard] > * Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe > dissociative symptoms > > I think that BPD provides a fascinating way of > looking at our two most compulsive posters. This > week, both of them have escalated from their normal > argumentative contrarianism into abject trolling > and active attempts to start arguments, IMO because > they are both panicky that no one is taking them > seriously any more. The "abandonment" issue has > made them go crazier than usual. > > The *nature* of the focus seems unimportant to > them. All that they seem to care about is that > someone -- ANYONE -- is focusing on them. I would > imagine that this has to do with the first symptom > above, and that they are so hideously uncomfortable > being alone that they have to troll for feedback, to > reassure themselves that they still exist, and that > someone -- ANYONE -- still takes them seriously, and > that the world hasn't completely abandoned them. > > What I'm wondering is whether abandonment -- ignoring > them completely -- is the best thing that we could > possibly do for them? What happens in a clinical set- > ting when you just basically IGNORE someone with BPD? > > Do they get better, or do they get worse? > > So far, it would seem that our two BPD role models have > gotten much, much worse, and are locked into acting out > their feelings of "I've got to do more to get people to > focus on me and to take me seriously" at an increased > level? > > In a clinical setting, does IGNORING the BPD sufferer's > need for attention actually help them to get over this > need and learn to develop relationships that are not > based on picking fights, or does it push them to get > worse, and finally implode? > > Ya gotta admit, either outcome would be preferable to > having to click past post after post of their psychic > garbage. Thank God for the posting limits. >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 31, 2008, at 9:36 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Good point about being medically unethical, even though I'm not a doctor. Good point also about not risking confrontation and intervention with BPD's in a family situation. But as for doing so on discussion lists, the venting is already a done deal, so isn't the possible "up side" of very likely never, ever hearing from that person again worth the risk? Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Even entering into casual discussion of or with such a person will only (eventually) stir up their ire, their splitting tactics will lead-foot into high gear and they entrench IME. And keep in mind, personality disorders often appear in clusters, so situations are often much more complex than simple definition and the pointing out of personal idiosyncrasies. Forcing a person to resort to seeing you as evil is always a lose-lose situation from what I can tell. Since a basic ethic of practice is 'do no harm', in a public list setting, most professionals will simply go quiet on the subject. But education on the subject is a good thing. So are potential avenues for treatment. There are a number of meditation techniques being successfully deployed as ways to re-weave the nine circuits of the pre-frontal cortex and thus create brain-level changes for many types of suffering, including personalty disorders. However, one can use certain meditation techniques to exacerbate or even induce personality disorders. I'm sure we'll eventually see "meditationally-induced personality disorders" defined in statistical manuals.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Vaj wrote: > > > > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 2:20 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > > > > What I'm wondering is whether abandonment -- ignoring > > > them completely -- is the best thing that we could > > > possibly do for them? What happens in a clinical set- > > > ting when you just basically IGNORE someone with BPD? > > > > The few people I knew who actually ended up being Borderlines all > > followed a similar pattern: > > > > Above average intelligence, successful working for themselves or > > "in charge" and with a certain amount of charisma. The problem > > was they'd draw you in with something interesting. They'd draw > > you in real close, revealing intimate details, etc. and you get > > to be close very quicklythen they blast you with their rage > > when you get close. Since they see the world largely in black or > > white, you fall into the black side of things and are devalued > > and looked upon as if evil. It's all your fault! > > I should have also hastened to point out that treatment for this > particular personality disorder is not only extremely difficult > to accomplish in a clinical setting, it also does not respond > well to any sort of direct confrontation, certainly not finger- > pointing. This will only close off communication and forestall > or stop treatment or progress. IOW you wouldn't, after years of > knowing someone with this issue, approach them and reveal your > diagnosis upon them. Forget about a family intervention(!). > You'd very likely never, ever hear from that person again unless > it was to vent their spleen, liver and tongue on you. > > It's also not a good idea to perform such diagnosis on discussion > lists, for the above reasons and that it's medically unethical. Good point about being medically unethical, even though I'm not a doctor. Good point also about not risking confrontation and intervention with BPD's in a family situation. But as for doing so on discussion lists, the venting is already a done deal, so isn't the possible "up side" of very likely never, ever hearing from that person again worth the risk? :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 31, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Vaj wrote: > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 2:20 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > >> What I'm wondering is whether abandonment -- ignoring >> them completely -- is the best thing that we could >> possibly do for them? What happens in a clinical set- >> ting when you just basically IGNORE someone with BPD? > > The few people I knew who actually ended up being Borderlines all > followed a similar pattern: > > Above average intelligence, successful working for themselves or "in > charge" and with a certain amount of charisma. The problem was they'd > draw you in with something interesting. They'd draw you in real close, > revealing intimate details, etc. and you get to be close very > quicklythen they blast you with their rage when you get close. > Since they see the world largely in black or white, you fall into the > black side of things and are devalued and looked upon as if evil. It's > all your fault! I should have also hastened to point out that treatment for this particular personality disorder is not only extremely difficult to accomplish in a clinical setting, it also does not respond well to any sort of direct confrontation, certainly not finger-pointing. This will only close off communication and forestall or stop treatment or progress. IOW you wouldn't, after years of knowing someone with this issue, approach them and reveal your diagnosis upon them. Forget about a family intervention(!). You'd very likely never, ever hear from that person again unless it was to vent their spleen, liver and tongue on you. It's also not a good idea to perform such diagnosis on discussion lists, for the above reasons and that it's medically unethical.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 31, 2008, at 2:20 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > What I'm wondering is whether abandonment -- ignoring > them completely -- is the best thing that we could > possibly do for them? What happens in a clinical set- > ting when you just basically IGNORE someone with BPD? The few people I knew who actually ended up being Borderlines all followed a similar pattern: Above average intelligence, successful working for themselves or "in charge" and with a certain amount of charisma. The problem was they'd draw you in with something interesting. They'd draw you in real close, revealing intimate details, etc. and you get to be close very quicklythen they blast you with their rage when you get close. Since they see the world largely in black or white, you fall into the black side of things and are devalued and looked upon as if evil. It's all your fault! > Do they get better, or do they get worse? It's said that most do as they get older, but the same patterns remain and it is quite obviously a painful pattern to be stuck in. Esp. if they live with someone. It's said, that those with BPD and some other personality disorders, although they're not fatal or ready to be institutionalized, those around them feel like dying as it's so difficult to have to live with. > So far, it would seem that our two BPD role models have > gotten much, much worse, and are locked into acting out > their feelings of "I've got to do more to get people to > focus on me and to take me seriously" at an increased > level? That's the "drawing in" part. Once you get close, expect to be blasted. > In a clinical setting, does IGNORING the BPD sufferer's > need for attention actually help them to get over this > need and learn to develop relationships that are not > based on picking fights, or does it push them to get > worse, and finally implode? In general BPD's don't do real well in a clinical setting as they tend to just eat up staff and spit them out again. BPD's are experts at splitting people and turning people against one another. One things for sure, a BPD person who show you how close knit your staff is.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Very interesting find, Vaj. BPD patients can be emotionally > draining to work with. Its as if they are emotionally stuck > a 3 years of age in interpersonal relationships. > > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality > Disorder discorvered > > Interesting that the findings center around the insula, the > part of the brain responsible for feelings of disgust. Thus > BPD sufferers lack "gut feeling" in judgments, a basic human > instinct. Thanks for bringing this up, Vaj and Peter. I was unaware of the description of Borderline Personality Disorder before, and now that I'm not and have looked into it, I'm finding it remarkably useful when examining the posts of a few people here on Fairfield Life. For example, look at the list of symptoms of this disorder, and then look at this week's Post Count so far, in which a couple of poster's attempts to get attention -- ANY attention -- are becoming more and more frantic with every passing minute. * Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment * A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation * Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self * Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days) * Chronic feelings of emptiness [Please note Shemp's recent admission of how lonely his is] * Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights) [Please note Judy's attempt, seemingly out of the blue, to pick a fight with Hugo/Richard] * Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms I think that BPD provides a fascinating way of looking at our two most compulsive posters. This week, both of them have escalated from their normal argumentative contrarianism into abject trolling and active attempts to start arguments, IMO because they are both panicky that no one is taking them seriously any more. The "abandonment" issue has made them go crazier than usual. The *nature* of the focus seems unimportant to them. All that they seem to care about is that someone -- ANYONE -- is focusing on them. I would imagine that this has to do with the first symptom above, and that they are so hideously uncomfortable being alone that they have to troll for feedback, to reassure themselves that they still exist, and that someone -- ANYONE -- still takes them seriously, and that the world hasn't completely abandoned them. What I'm wondering is whether abandonment -- ignoring them completely -- is the best thing that we could possibly do for them? What happens in a clinical set- ting when you just basically IGNORE someone with BPD? Do they get better, or do they get worse? So far, it would seem that our two BPD role models have gotten much, much worse, and are locked into acting out their feelings of "I've got to do more to get people to focus on me and to take me seriously" at an increased level? In a clinical setting, does IGNORING the BPD sufferer's need for attention actually help them to get over this need and learn to develop relationships that are not based on picking fights, or does it push them to get worse, and finally implode? Ya gotta admit, either outcome would be preferable to having to click past post after post of their psychic garbage. Thank God for the posting limits.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Actually, almost everyone on this group is normal except for a few notable exceptions that usually don't stay on for too long. I know, its sad, when the super-normal just get up and leave. Oh R, L, Sh, and Diegiagio -- "our nation turns it's lonely eyes to you". Alas, they have their heroic missions. I just hope they save Claire (the cheerleader). > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 10:38 AM > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Peter wrote: > Very interesting find, Vaj. BPD patients can be emotionally draining to work with. Its as if they are emotionally stuck a 3 years of age in interpersonal relationships. > And that's different from the average person here how, exactly, Peter? > Oh, wait! Most of us are stuck at about 4-5 years of age,or is that being too optimistic? > Sal >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: > > > > > > > Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits > > > > quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're > > > > so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond > > > > them, no matter what evidence is presented. > > > > > > Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: > > > > > > --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, > > > > OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. > > I'm not Vaj, but I'll step up to the plate for > my last post this week. And I won't stop at one. > I'll give it exactly as much time as I gave > myself for the ten "positive" planks of my > political platform. > > -- He made meditation a household word in the West. > This is never to be discounted, and IMO should be > his legacy. > > -- He reintroduced a great number of multi-lifetime > spiritual seekers who had been reborn in the West > to the spiritual path, one that they would otherwise > not easily have found. > > -- He gave many of those multi-lifetime seekers an > opportunity that is rare and in my opinion one of > the greatest gifts a spiritual teacher can bestow > on a spiritual seeker: the right to teach basic > meditation. We weren't *ready* to teach, and he > knew it, but he let us have a go at it anyway, and > to learn from that experience. This is the thing > I am most grateful to him for. > > -- The checking procedure, as AI-based and non- > respectful of the individual as it is, is a pretty > neat thing. For the type of technique he taught, I > cannot think of one competitive tradition that has > anything nearly as effective in terms of "recentering" > effortless meditation. > > -- He gave a lot of us the opportunity to do long > meditations in a retreat setting. We called them > "courses" and called what we did "rounding," but > it is an experience that few on this planet have > had, and we should treasure it. > > -- He gave a lot of us who were about to get burned > out on the promise of the Sixties something other > than sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to focus on in > our mind's natural tendency to seek "more." > > -- He enabled me to travel to a lot of exotic locales, > even though my memories of many of them are limited > to what the inside of my hotel room looked like. > > -- He sponsored some WAY magical moments that still > rank WAY up there in my list of cool moments. Whether > they were at a course in the mountains or in an > initiation room in Los Angeles, they were way cool > shiny moments, and I thank him for them. > > -- He provided me with a dumbed-down but remarkably > effective language and set of buzzwords with which > to describe the spiritual process, one that is easily > understood by many people, and which probably comes > as close as any language and set of buzzwords in > the biz to being able to describe the indescribable. > > -- He introduced me, through his organization, to > some of the most beautiful women in the world, some > of whom still rank up there in my list of WAY cool > moments along with the spiritual experiences. > > -- He introduced me similarly to some really neat > fellow seekers, many of whom I still treasure to this > day as friends. > > -- By allowing me to teach, he forced me the fuck > out of my self, and allowed me for brief periods of > time to experience selflessness, and putting someone > else's welfare ahead of my own. I know I said this > before, but that's a really big deal. > > -- He had an infectious laugh, and infected me with > it often. That is never to be dismissed or overlooked > in any human being, let alone a spiritual teacher. > > -- His techniques, plus probably a lot of work in > previous lives, facilitated my first clear experience > of enlightenment in this lifetime. That is also not > to be overlooked or forgotten or regarded with anything > but gratitude. > > -- In the end, he taught me one of the greatest lessons > one can possibly learn along the spiritual path. That > is, by walking away from it you are sometimes really > still following it. > Fantastic list. Amen.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:37 AM, wayback71 wrote: > > > One of my sisters has BPD. It has been a very difficult situation > > for our family, both as I > > was growing up and continuing on now. My parents were at a total > > loss as to how to > > handle her, so just gave in to anything she demanded. Family > > therapy was not really even > > considered in those days (the 50's and 60's) among our friends. > > Over the years, the family > > has struggled to stay together, but some bonds are broken for good, > > and my mother > > grieves while protecting my sister and leaving everyone's > > inheritance to her. What is > > astounding, is that my sister with BPD does not really "get" what > > she has done, or the > > consequences of her actions over the years. She can rage about what > > someone else is > > doing and how unfair or unhealthy it is etc, then turn around and > > do the exact same thing > > herself without recognizing it - no shame, no guilt, honestly and > > truly no understanding. I > > always thought it was as if there is a large portion of her brain > > just gone missing - despite > > being intelligent and kind (if her interests are being met first > > and she is secure that my > > parents love her the most and she can live with them). It was such > > a shock to finally see > > this - as if she has blinders on even in the most obvious and > > egregious situations. It has > > been a devastating, crazy ride for all of us. Took me years and > > lots of therapy to learn to > > deal with it. ONe sister just emotionally "left" her relationship > > with my parents and BPD > > sister. My brother has ignored it all until recently. I sure hope > > it can be figured out. For > > my sister it has gotten only very slightly better over the course > > of 56 years. > > > My heart goes out to you are your family. Kudos to you for having the > determination to stick in there. > > All of my children were adopted and/or are foster kids and thus we > never had any choice over the type or style of development they were > exposed to. In some cases the developmental damage was so pervasive, > i.e. children who were severely neglected and abused at that key > point of brain development, the 2-4 years of age "sweet spot", that > they would totally lose the ability empathize with other humans and > they had no ability to emotionally bond to others. In some cases > these kids never can escape their own pathology, as it's actually > hardwired into their little brains. > > On a more positive note, we are having some success with one of the > most difficult children using mindfulness meditation as envisioned by > one of the leading experts in human attachment. > Perhaps everyone else knows that you have adopted and foster children, but I did not. Now that is seva! Those kids are lucky to have found you. Best of luck and thanks for your comments.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
Turq, that's fantastic! I agree with every word. Your last point reminds me of something Nietzsche said about Wagner, that the greatest compliment a man could pay his teacher was to reject him. (Nietzsche was originally one of Wagner's biggest fans, but later rejected him completely.) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: > > > > > > > Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits > > > > quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're > > > > so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond > > > > them, no matter what evidence is presented. > > > > > > Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: > > > > > > --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, > > > > OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. > > I'm not Vaj, but I'll step up to the plate for > my last post this week. And I won't stop at one. > I'll give it exactly as much time as I gave > myself for the ten "positive" planks of my > political platform. > > -- He made meditation a household word in the West. > This is never to be discounted, and IMO should be > his legacy. > > -- He reintroduced a great number of multi-lifetime > spiritual seekers who had been reborn in the West > to the spiritual path, one that they would otherwise > not easily have found. > > -- He gave many of those multi-lifetime seekers an > opportunity that is rare and in my opinion one of > the greatest gifts a spiritual teacher can bestow > on a spiritual seeker: the right to teach basic > meditation. We weren't *ready* to teach, and he > knew it, but he let us have a go at it anyway, and > to learn from that experience. This is the thing > I am most grateful to him for. > > -- The checking procedure, as AI-based and non- > respectful of the individual as it is, is a pretty > neat thing. For the type of technique he taught, I > cannot think of one competitive tradition that has > anything nearly as effective in terms of "recentering" > effortless meditation. > > -- He gave a lot of us the opportunity to do long > meditations in a retreat setting. We called them > "courses" and called what we did "rounding," but > it is an experience that few on this planet have > had, and we should treasure it. > > -- He gave a lot of us who were about to get burned > out on the promise of the Sixties something other > than sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to focus on in > our mind's natural tendency to seek "more." > > -- He enabled me to travel to a lot of exotic locales, > even though my memories of many of them are limited > to what the inside of my hotel room looked like. > > -- He sponsored some WAY magical moments that still > rank WAY up there in my list of cool moments. Whether > they were at a course in the mountains or in an > initiation room in Los Angeles, they were way cool > shiny moments, and I thank him for them. > > -- He provided me with a dumbed-down but remarkably > effective language and set of buzzwords with which > to describe the spiritual process, one that is easily > understood by many people, and which probably comes > as close as any language and set of buzzwords in > the biz to being able to describe the indescribable. > > -- He introduced me, through his organization, to > some of the most beautiful women in the world, some > of whom still rank up there in my list of WAY cool > moments along with the spiritual experiences. > > -- He introduced me similarly to some really neat > fellow seekers, many of whom I still treasure to this > day as friends. > > -- By allowing me to teach, he forced me the fuck > out of my self, and allowed me for brief periods of > time to experience selflessness, and putting someone > else's welfare ahead of my own. I know I said this > before, but that's a really big deal. > > -- He had an infectious laugh, and infected me with > it often. That is never to be dismissed or overlooked > in any human being, let alone a spiritual teacher. > > -- His techniques, plus probably a lot of work in > previous lives, facilitated my first clear experience > of enlightenment in this lifetime. That is also not > to be overlooked or forgotten or regarded with anything > but gratitude. > > -- In the end, he taught me one of the greatest lessons > one can possibly learn along the spiritual path. That > is, by walking away from it you are sometimes really > still following it. >
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "feste37" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: > > > > > Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits > > > quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're > > > so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond > > > them, no matter what evidence is presented. > > > > Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: > > > > --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, > > OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. I'm not Vaj, but I'll step up to the plate for my last post this week. And I won't stop at one. I'll give it exactly as much time as I gave myself for the ten "positive" planks of my political platform. -- He made meditation a household word in the West. This is never to be discounted, and IMO should be his legacy. -- He reintroduced a great number of multi-lifetime spiritual seekers who had been reborn in the West to the spiritual path, one that they would otherwise not easily have found. -- He gave many of those multi-lifetime seekers an opportunity that is rare and in my opinion one of the greatest gifts a spiritual teacher can bestow on a spiritual seeker: the right to teach basic meditation. We weren't *ready* to teach, and he knew it, but he let us have a go at it anyway, and to learn from that experience. This is the thing I am most grateful to him for. -- The checking procedure, as AI-based and non- respectful of the individual as it is, is a pretty neat thing. For the type of technique he taught, I cannot think of one competitive tradition that has anything nearly as effective in terms of "recentering" effortless meditation. -- He gave a lot of us the opportunity to do long meditations in a retreat setting. We called them "courses" and called what we did "rounding," but it is an experience that few on this planet have had, and we should treasure it. -- He gave a lot of us who were about to get burned out on the promise of the Sixties something other than sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to focus on in our mind's natural tendency to seek "more." -- He enabled me to travel to a lot of exotic locales, even though my memories of many of them are limited to what the inside of my hotel room looked like. -- He sponsored some WAY magical moments that still rank WAY up there in my list of cool moments. Whether they were at a course in the mountains or in an initiation room in Los Angeles, they were way cool shiny moments, and I thank him for them. -- He provided me with a dumbed-down but remarkably effective language and set of buzzwords with which to describe the spiritual process, one that is easily understood by many people, and which probably comes as close as any language and set of buzzwords in the biz to being able to describe the indescribable. -- He introduced me, through his organization, to some of the most beautiful women in the world, some of whom still rank up there in my list of WAY cool moments along with the spiritual experiences. -- He introduced me similarly to some really neat fellow seekers, many of whom I still treasure to this day as friends. -- By allowing me to teach, he forced me the fuck out of my self, and allowed me for brief periods of time to experience selflessness, and putting someone else's welfare ahead of my own. I know I said this before, but that's a really big deal. -- He had an infectious laugh, and infected me with it often. That is never to be dismissed or overlooked in any human being, let alone a spiritual teacher. -- His techniques, plus probably a lot of work in previous lives, facilitated my first clear experience of enlightenment in this lifetime. That is also not to be overlooked or forgotten or regarded with anything but gratitude. -- In the end, he taught me one of the greatest lessons one can possibly learn along the spiritual path. That is, by walking away from it you are sometimes really still following it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 2:34 PM, feste37 wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: > >> > >>> Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits quite nicely > >>> into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're so stuck in your > >>> negative > >>> views that you can't see beyond them, no matter what evidence is > >>> presented. > >> > >> > >> Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: > >> > >> --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, > >> > > OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. > > He popularized the idea that meditating, and doing so regularly, is a > good thing. > I'll take it! Well done.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 29, 2008, at 2:34 PM, feste37 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond them, no matter what evidence is presented. Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. He popularized the idea that meditating, and doing so regularly, is a good thing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: > > > Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits quite nicely > > into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're so stuck in your negative > > views that you can't see beyond them, no matter what evidence is > > presented. > > > Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: > > --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, > OK, so tell me one positive thing about MMY. Just one. > --and that I don't see M's system of practice and metaphysics in a > larger and fuller context, a spectrum of practice if you will. > > --that I don't "see through" evidence presented as good, positive or > even 'remarkable' as bad or poor, negative in terms of it's deception > or just "ho-hum". > > According to a slew of psychological testing I've (of my own accord) > taken over the years, I'm a very psychologically healthy and balanced > human being. And I will often say what others are afraid to say. > > But I do have an intolerance of self-appointed gurus who deceive and > harm others. > There you go again!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:37 AM, wayback71 wrote: One of my sisters has BPD. It has been a very difficult situation for our family, both as I was growing up and continuing on now. My parents were at a total loss as to how to handle her, so just gave in to anything she demanded. Family therapy was not really even considered in those days (the 50's and 60's) among our friends. Over the years, the family has struggled to stay together, but some bonds are broken for good, and my mother grieves while protecting my sister and leaving everyone's inheritance to her. What is astounding, is that my sister with BPD does not really "get" what she has done, or the consequences of her actions over the years. She can rage about what someone else is doing and how unfair or unhealthy it is etc, then turn around and do the exact same thing herself without recognizing it - no shame, no guilt, honestly and truly no understanding. I always thought it was as if there is a large portion of her brain just gone missing - despite being intelligent and kind (if her interests are being met first and she is secure that my parents love her the most and she can live with them). It was such a shock to finally see this - as if she has blinders on even in the most obvious and egregious situations. It has been a devastating, crazy ride for all of us. Took me years and lots of therapy to learn to deal with it. ONe sister just emotionally "left" her relationship with my parents and BPD sister. My brother has ignored it all until recently. I sure hope it can be figured out. For my sister it has gotten only very slightly better over the course of 56 years. My heart goes out to you are your family. Kudos to you for having the determination to stick in there. All of my children were adopted and/or are foster kids and thus we never had any choice over the type or style of development they were exposed to. In some cases the developmental damage was so pervasive, i.e. children who were severely neglected and abused at that key point of brain development, the 2-4 years of age "sweet spot", that they would totally lose the ability empathize with other humans and they had no ability to emotionally bond to others. In some cases these kids never can escape their own pathology, as it's actually hardwired into their little brains. On a more positive note, we are having some success with one of the most difficult children using mindfulness meditation as envisioned by one of the leading experts in human attachment.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
One of my sisters has BPD. It has been a very difficult situation for our family, both as I was growing up and continuing on now. My parents were at a total loss as to how to handle her, so just gave in to anything she demanded. Family therapy was not really even considered in those days (the 50's and 60's) among our friends. Over the years, the family has struggled to stay together, but some bonds are broken for good, and my mother grieves while protecting my sister and leaving everyone's inheritance to her. What is astounding, is that my sister with BPD does not really "get" what she has done, or the consequences of her actions over the years. She can rage about what someone else is doing and how unfair or unhealthy it is etc, then turn around and do the exact same thing herself without recognizing it - no shame, no guilt, honestly and truly no understanding. I always thought it was as if there is a large portion of her brain just gone missing - despite being intelligent and kind (if her interests are being met first and she is secure that my parents love her the most and she can live with them). It was such a shock to finally see this - as if she has blinders on even in the most obvious and egregious situations. It has been a devastating, crazy ride for all of us. Took me years and lots of therapy to learn to deal with it. ONe sister just emotionally "left" her relationship with my parents and BPD sister. My brother has ignored it all until recently. I sure hope it can be figured out. For my sister it has gotten only very slightly better over the course of 56 years. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Interesting that the findings center around the insula, the part of > the brain responsible for feelings of disgust. Thus BPD sufferers > lack "gut feeling" in judgments, a basic human instinct. > > Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder > > King-Casas et al. carry out interesting experiments in which they > recruited 55 individuals afflicted with borderline personality > disorder (BPD) to play a multiround economic exchange game with > healthy partners. Imaging experiments were also performed that > revealed different patterns of insula activation in BPD subjects. > Here is the abstract, followed by a figure from an accompanying > review by Meyer-Lindenberg. > > To sustain or repair cooperation during a social exchange, adaptive > creatures must understand social gestures and the consequences when > shared expectations about fair exchange are violated by accident or > intent. We recruited 55 individuals afflicted with borderline > personality disorder (BPD) to play a multiround economic exchange > game with healthy partners. Behaviorally, individuals with BPD showed > a profound incapacity to maintain cooperation, and were impaired in > their ability to repair broken cooperation on the basis of a > quantitative measure of coaxing. Neurally, activity in the anterior > insula, a region known to respond to norm violations across > affective, interoceptive, economic, and social dimensions, strongly > differentiated healthy participants from individuals with BPD. > Healthy subjects showed a strong linear relation between anterior > insula response and both magnitude of monetary offer received from > their partner (input) and the amount of money repaid to their partner > (output). In stark contrast, activity in the anterior insula of BPD > participants was related only to the magnitude of repayment sent back > to their partner (output), not to the magnitude of offers received > (input). These neural and behavioral data suggest that norms used in > perception of social gestures are pathologically perturbed or missing > altogether among individuals with BPD. This game-theoretic approach > to psychopathology may open doors to new ways of characterizing and > studying a range of mental illnesses. > >  > > (Click to enlarge). Activation of the anterior insula is observed > during an economic trust game in individuals with borderline > personality disorder and healthy controls. Both groups show higher > activation in response to stingy repayments they are about to make. > However, only players with the disorder have no differential response > to low offers from an investor (upper left graph), indicating that > they lack the "gut feeling" that the relationship (cooperation) is in > jeopardy. >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
On Aug 29, 2008, at 11:17 AM, feste37 wrote: Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond them, no matter what evidence is presented. Your observation is based on a number of false assumptions: --that ALL of my views of M. are negative, --and that I don't see M's system of practice and metaphysics in a larger and fuller context, a spectrum of practice if you will. --that I don't "see through" evidence presented as good, positive or even 'remarkable' as bad or poor, negative in terms of it's deception or just "ho-hum". According to a slew of psychological testing I've (of my own accord) taken over the years, I'm a very psychologically healthy and balanced human being. And I will often say what others are afraid to say. But I do have an intolerance of self-appointed gurus who deceive and harm others.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
Ever thought of applying that to yourself, Vaj? It fits quite nicely into your rigid views of TM and MMY. You're so stuck in your negative views that you can't see beyond them, no matter what evidence is presented. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What was always fascinating to me was how "stuck" someone could be in > black-white thinking and how once one fell into the "black" or > negatively perceived side of the BPD persons perception, they were > automatically devalued and distrusted, often completely missing the > gut feeling that would "fill in" the "gray" area that makes up most > of human experience.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Very interesting find, Vaj. BPD patients can be emotionally draining to work with. Its as if they are emotionally stuck a 3 years of age in interpersonal relationships. > I guess it might be like e.g. trying to "teach" a colo(u)r blind person to see colo(u)rs... : / > > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder discorvered > To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 9:23 AM > > Interesting that the findings center around the insula, the part of the brain responsible for feelings of disgust. Thus BPD sufferers lack "gut feeling" in judgments, a basic human instinct. > Brain Correlates of Borderline Personality Disorder > King-Casas et al. carry out interesting experiments in which they recruited 55 individuals afflicted with borderline personality disorder (BPD) to play a multiround economic exchange game with healthy partners. Imaging experiments were also performed that revealed different patterns of insula activation in BPD subjects. Here is the abstract, followed by a figure from an accompanying review by Meyer-Lindenberg.To sustain or repair cooperation during a social exchange, adaptive creatures must understand social gestures and the consequences when shared expectations about fair exchange are violated by accident or intent. We recruited 55 individuals afflicted with borderline personality disorder (BPD) to play a multiround economic exchange game with healthy partners. Behaviorally, individuals with BPD showed a profound incapacity to maintain cooperation, and were impaired in their ability to repair broken cooperation on the basis of a quantitative measure of > coaxing. Neurally, activity in the anterior insula, a region known to respond to norm violations across affective, interoceptive, economic, and social dimensions, strongly differentiated healthy participants from individuals with BPD. Healthy subjects showed a strong linear relation between anterior insula response and both magnitude of monetary offer received from their partner (input) and the amount of money repaid to their partner (output). In stark contrast, activity in the anterior insula of BPD participants was related only to the magnitude of repayment sent back to their partner (output), not to the magnitude of offers received (input). These neural and behavioral data suggest that norms used in perception of social gestures are pathologically perturbed or missing altogether among individuals with BPD. This game-theoretic approach to psychopathology may open doors to new ways of characterizing and studying a range of mental illnesses. > > > (Click to enlarge). Activation of the anterior insula is observed during an economic trust game in individuals with borderline personality disorder and healthy controls. Both groups show higher activation in response to stingy repayments they are about to make. However, only players with the disorder have no differential response to low offers from an investor (upper left graph), indicating that they lack the "gut feeling" that the relationship (cooperation) is in jeopardy. >
