[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Judy, Tell me that that line doesn't move your soul. And I wont interact with you as an emotional equal anymore. Curtis --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yeah, un pack it for me. shaking water off hands Your job.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Your don't get that you are fighting the wrong battle here do you? OK keep fighting if that makes you happy...boring...boring... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yeah, un pack it for me. shaking water off hands Your job.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Your don't get that you are fighting the wrong battle here do you? OK keep fighting if that makes you happy...boring...boring... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yeah, un pack it for me. shaking water off hands Your job.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey T3inity, That was really an interesting post! Sounds like you are really deep into Indian culture. I would love to visit again. Thanks, yes I am, I really love it. Visit again, you will see much has changed, much is just the same. Cities have changed a lot, newer roads, all the new car types, more expansive hotels, but still unbelievable cheap given the conversion rates. Everybody has cell phones now, even our Riksha driver, and its a good idea to get a local SIM, was the best idea on this trip. And rural India is still the same, has hardly changed AFAICtell. I know that MMY has deviated from the traditional teachers in India and caught flack for it from the traditional guys. I was wondering if Guru Dev also exhibited this trait. I may be wrong and your post certainly makes a case for that. I don't think Guru Dev deviated. Maharishi largly paved the way for the new middle class gurus, he was the model case as I see it. His concept is very successful and copied by others. One more detail that I found interesting talking to Narayan Ayer was: There seemed to be a concern about Maharishi not wearing orange and his acceptance in the west. Vivekananda seemed to be a role model for Maharishi, also interesting as he started out in Kanya Kumari, where Vivekananda swam to an island and had his famous vision of creating a sannyasi order and going to America. So the concern was there if he would be accepted as an Indian teacher not wearing orange but white - but it worked. As for the famous /infamous watered-down argument, I am fed up with it, because there is nothing that you couldn't make a bit more compliceted, especially the sience of Mantras, but all the scriptures at least that I read stress on simplicity and devotion. Maharishi paved the way, and thats what he wanted to do, and he knew he did it, thats okay in my eyes.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Apr 5, 2007, at 1:57 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Paul McCartney actually (song about Julian Lennon).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Apr 5, 2007, at 7:58 AM, Vaj wrote: On Apr 5, 2007, at 1:57 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Paul McCartney actually (song about Julian Lennon). It was *to* Julian Lennon, not about him IIRC. I think Paul was attempting to give him some advice that would hopefully make his life a little easier or something. Most people would not write lines like that *about* someone who was around 5 or 6 at the time. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:17 AM, Sal Sunshine wrote: It was *to* Julian Lennon, not about him IIRC. I think Paul was attempting to give him some advice that would hopefully make his life a little easier or something. Most people would not write lines like that *about* someone who was around 5 or 6 at the time. Yes, I believe that is a correct clarification. It is about something he wanted to say to Jules, later changed to Jude IIRC.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Yeah, I was wrong twice, I even blew the line itself! Plays it cool --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 5, 2007, at 1:57 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Paul McCartney actually (song about Julian Lennon).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
And the Maharishi apparently never did promise anyone enlightenment in 5-7 years. Rick Archer wrote: It wasn't a promise but it was a standard part of the 3-days checking notes. Maybe in your checking notes, but it's not in any of my checking notes. It's not listed on the checking notes posted by John Knapp on Trancenet either. Or on Minit Org posted by Mike Doughney. Lon P. Stacks never posted any evidence on A.M.T. either. What's up with that? 5-8 years was the predicted time to reach CC. All initiators said this every time they taught TM. So, where exactly, in the Guru Dev Puja is it listed? My point is that, if you and Barry or anybody else handed out leaflets for the Maharishi promisng CC in 5-7 years, then you are all idiots and hucksters. If true, don't you think you and the TMO should be refunding a lot of money to all those poor students? Forget about Uncle Tantra putting up posters for the Rama Lentz promising *instant enlightenment*. I guess Vaj was correct - some of you guys swallowed the hook, the line, the sinker, AND the rod. Go figure. It was nice and quiet before you barged in spoiling for a fight with Judy. Huh? Rory couldn't have been nicer. He was expressing genuine appreciation for Judy. He was downright obsequious. If so, Rory insulted Curtis, Vaj, Barry, Off-World and the Geezer Freak, who apparently can't stand Judy, or any other TMer for that matter. But I may have made a mistake - it's you that owes Judy an apology for posting a reference to that Junkyard Dog page put up by the Asshole Nick. Apparently you tried to kick a dog when she was down. And now you owe me at least a partial apology - Jerry Jarvis was half-bald. Not to mention that you really hurt my feelings by posting all those dirty rumors about the Maharishi's private sex life. That was really low, in my opinion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Huh? Rory couldn't have been nicer. He was expressing genuine appreciation for Judy. He was downright obsequious. If so, Rory insulted Curtis, Vaj, Barry, Off-World and the Geezer Freak, who apparently can't stand Judy, or any other TMer for that matter. But I may have made a mistake - it's you that owes Judy an apology for posting a reference to that Junkyard Dog page put up by the Asshole Nick. Apparently you tried to kick a dog when she was down. It's OK, I wasn't down. Rick just ended up hurting his own foot.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Sure seems to have heated you up, don't it? Judy, Tell me that that line doesn't move your soul. And I wont interact with you as an emotional equal anymore. Good, maybe you're learning something. Now check that mirror again and look *just* a little bit deeper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
I know you are trying to say something mean Judy, but you are just coming off weird here. Your reaction to my original post was odd. I don't doubt it all makes sense in your world, but you are not communicating anything other than a generally unpleasant condescending tone. Intimating that I don't know myself and need to look in the mirror might have worked on my insecurities when I was about 10. Now it just comes off as lame. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Sure seems to have heated you up, don't it? Judy, Tell me that that line doesn't move your soul. And I wont interact with you as an emotional equal anymore. Good, maybe you're learning something. Now check that mirror again and look *just* a little bit deeper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Rick Archer wrote: Huh? Rory couldn't have been nicer. He was expressing genuine appreciation for Judy. He was downright obsequious. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If so, Rory insulted Curtis, Vaj, Barry, Off-World and the Geezer Freak, who apparently can't stand Judy, or any other TMer for that matter. But I may have made a mistake - it's you that owes Judy an apology for posting a reference to that Junkyard Dog page put up by the Asshole Nick. Apparently you tried to kick a dog when she was down. I do apologize, Barry, for conflating you with Joe Kellett on TM- news -- the two of you played virtually the same role in my discussions with Judy there in 2002, and here on FFL last year, which both contributed much to clarifying and deepening my understanding and appreciation of the perfection of seeming- imperfection. Many thanks; it's been a pleasure to know you. Of course, an appreciation of Judy's rare brilliance does not imply (as new.morning points out) that we are always in full agreement, nor that we do not also deeply appreciate the aromatic essences, the fine cuisine of multisensory Being offered up by Curtis, Vaj, and Barry, Tom, Rick, and Harry, Off-World, Geezer Freak, new.morning, Kirk, You, and everyone else who wanders in to contribute to the pot- luck smorgasbord in this marvelous bar (for some), bardo (for others) or body (for me). That was the rub -- you are all the Great Choir of my body-mind; I've always felt the need to read all of your posts insofar as I have been able, so I am pleased with the 5-post limit. I hold you in me at all times, I think of you all constantly - - more intently at some times than others of course :-) -- but I enjoy each of our mind-chatter energy-signatures, mine own included, most deeply in homeopathic doses! Much is spoken and heard in silence. Oh, and Sal, yes! Body, Soul, and Spirit; Involution, Revolution, Evolution; Lakshmi, Sarasvati, and Durga; or if you prefer, Moe, Larry, Curly. I am Shemp, Thou Art Shemp, All this is Shemp; Shemp alone Is...? * Love * Light * Laughter *
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
My hands are all dry now. You're on your own, buster. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know you are trying to say something mean Judy, but you are just coming off weird here. Your reaction to my original post was odd. I don't doubt it all makes sense in your world, but you are not communicating anything other than a generally unpleasant condescending tone. Intimating that I don't know myself and need to look in the mirror might have worked on my insecurities when I was about 10. Now it just comes off as lame. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: John Lennon Don't ya know it's just a fool, who makes it cool, by making his world a little colder. Sure seems to have heated you up, don't it? Judy, Tell me that that line doesn't move your soul. And I wont interact with you as an emotional equal anymore. Good, maybe you're learning something. Now check that mirror again and look *just* a little bit deeper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Huh? Rory couldn't have been nicer. He was expressing genuine appreciation for Judy. He was downright obsequious. Richard J. Williams wrote: If so, Rory insulted Curtis, Vaj, Barry, Off-World and the Geezer Freak, who apparently can't stand Judy, or any other TMer for that matter. But I may have made a mistake - it's you that owes Judy an apology for posting a reference to that Junkyard Dog page put up by the Asshole Nick. Apparently you tried to kick a dog when she was down. Judy wrote: It's OK, I wasn't down. Rick just ended up hurting his own foot. Well, maybe so. I've been wrong about a lot of things, but one thing I'm not wrong about is that Skolnick is an Asshole for putting up a webpage entitled Junkyard Dog. Hope Rick's foot gets better, but now I see that the whole reason we can only post five posts a day is because of the whinning of the anti-Judy crowd. It's alright though, I've still got A.M.T. to rant on. I feel a whole lot better when I have someone to talk to. Thanks for trying to help me for the past ten years - it's been a real slice. You could be a nice good lookin' gal from New York for all I know.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard J. Williams Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:31 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and 5-8 years was the predicted time to reach CC. All initiators said this every time they taught TM. So, where exactly, in the Guru Dev Puja is it listed? It wasn't in the puja, dummy, it was in the 3rd day checking, when we talked about CC. And now you owe me at least a partial apology - Jerry Jarvis was half-bald. That's not what you said. You were claiming he was bald. Not to mention that you really hurt my feelings by posting all those dirty rumors about the Maharishi's private sex life. At least you're now acknowledging it existed. This board doesn't exist to preserve your feelings.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
new.morning wrote: I am not sure if promise is the word, but in Nov 1967 in Berkeley MMY talked specifically about how TM would result in CC in 5 years for students -- and even had a pamphlet to go along with it which had the 5 years in writing. Maybe so, but I helped Jerry Jarvis set up SIMS at Berkely in 1967 and I was in charge of all printed literature at that time - no pamplet made that claim that I ever sent to the printer. According to Barry, he used to pass out leaflets whith a promise for enlightenemnt, but I never saw such. In fact, in over ten years of reading posts on AMT, not one single respondent has ever been able to substantiaite this silly claim. Lon P. Stacks on AMT was unable to post such a quotation from any printed matter and he was the manager of MIU Press at Livingston Manor. The impression of many -- and most of my friends and peers at the time -- was that doing the program for five years faithfully would result in CC. It was a common assumption, a given, in those days. This claim, if made, would be non-sensical, since by 1967, several hundred people had already been practicing TM for over ten years without attaining CC. Maharishi himself never claimed to be in CC and supposedly he had been practicing TM since 1947. In fact, Maharishi said that TM WAS NOT the cause of enlightenemnt - the practice of TM simply provides the opportunity for transcending. According to Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, Brahman is Light itself - it needs no other light to illuminate it. Obviously you are mistaken and Rory is certainly not infallible since he can't even remember the news forums that he posts to. However, the claim made below by Rory is obviously false. There's a lot of stuff that just seems to be made up by some of you ex-TMers - why, I don't know. What do you think? Finally, he declared himself infallible; he actually said, I never make mistakes, which immediately reminded me of many errors he had made: first claiming that all meditators would reach Cosmic Consciousness in a few months, later adjusting the estimate upward to two-to-three years, then readjusting up to three-to-five years, then up again to five-to-eight years... - Rory Goff Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Petrus Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: Re: 5 to 8 yrs to Enlightenment !! http://tinyurl.com/2muq22
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
jstein wrote: Anyway, turns out Rory was on TMNews, and his sign-off was LLL. That makes sense, I guess. A guy who writes his own Spiritual Autobiography and publishes it on the Internet, who goes to a TM news forum to argue his case, who doesn't sign his name as Rory Goff, but uses a sig LLL and then comes to FFL to pick a fight with you after five years and spoils the whole new atmosphere around here. Go figure. Willy, one wonders sometimes where your head is at, possibly in the posterior location I suggested in a fairly recent post. - Barry Wright Off the Program: http://tinyurl.com/2j83f5
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:24 AM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Finally, he declared himself infallible; he actually said, I never make mistakes, which immediately reminded me of many errors he had made: first claiming that all meditators would reach Cosmic Consciousness in a few months, later adjusting the estimate upward to two-to-three years, then readjusting up to three-to-five years, then up again to five-to-eight years... - Rory Goff I'm sorry to inform you of this, but that figure has now been updated to 5 to 8 lifetimes. We apologize for any inconvenience or misunderstanding this typo may have caused.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Geoff --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff rorygoff@ wrote: Anyhow, as I said, I was thinking about you, and seeing you as a kind of Jedi-Judy, weilding such a perfect, laser-sharp light- sword of discrimination and chopping everyone's head off, or rather simply holding the sword out and watching them run right into it :-) In a similar vein, though I am perhaps not as emphatic and colorful as Rory, I like Judy's focus, insight and logic in many of her posts. It is interesting to see her view and process unfold when she takes on a topic. That is not to say that I always agree with her conclusions. I may evaluate and weigh the supporting arguments differently than her -- or have additional points I might consider. And some topics I am not intereted in (her past issues with turq). While Rory and I apparently are in a minority, I think she regularly makes a strong contribution and and often provides excellent examples of precise thinking and exposition. I also regularly enjoy Curtis and Marek's post for similiar reasons. For me the value in a post is not does it support your existing POV's, but rather, does it help you see things from a new angle. Does the piercing look of the writer help uncover new things, or reveal processes to do such. I find all three posters do that for me -- yet clearly their conculsions differ.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Make that four. I love Judy Stein! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Geoff --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff rorygoff@ wrote: Anyhow, as I said, I was thinking about you, and seeing you as a kind of Jedi-Judy, weilding such a perfect, laser-sharp light- sword of discrimination and chopping everyone's head off, or rather simply holding the sword out and watching them run right into it :-) In a similar vein, though I am perhaps not as emphatic and colorful as Rory, I like Judy's focus, insight and logic in many of her posts. It is interesting to see her view and process unfold when she takes on a topic. That is not to say that I always agree with her conclusions. I may evaluate and weigh the supporting arguments differently than her -- or have additional points I might consider. And some topics I am not intereted in (her past issues with turq). While Rory and I apparently are in a minority, I think she regularly makes a strong contribution and and often provides excellent examples of precise thinking and exposition. I also regularly enjoy Curtis and Marek's post for similiar reasons. For me the value in a post is not does it support your existing POV's, but rather, does it help you see things from a new angle. Does the piercing look of the writer help uncover new things, or reveal processes to do such. I find all three posters do that for me -- yet clearly their conculsions differ.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Make that 4. Judy earned my respect years ago on a.m.t., and I agree with you about the Barry-Judy wars. Judy wields a razor sharp intellect that far surpasses that of most, if not all the people she debates online, and as a result, she leaves behind a virtual battlefield of shredded, battered egos. Also, based on what I've learned from Petra, who has very strong Mars characteristics, men often don't appreciate powerful women, and I think that adds to the rancor felt by the men who cross her path. E.g, Skolnick's 'Junkyard Dog' page is, IMO, nothing more than a shrine to his own microphallus.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard J. Williams Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 9:43 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and So, no Rory Goff on AMT in 2002 dialoging with Judy; no Uncle Tantra dialoging with Rory on AMT in 2002; but the mystery of who started the lie that the Maharishi once said that enlightenment could be achieved in 5-7 years is now solved: Rory Goff. But why would Rory come here and lie about Judy and Barry? Apparently Rory made a mistake. Rory Goff wrote: Maybe it wasn't AMT. So, in fact, Rory, you owe Judy an apology. And the Maharishi apparently never did promise anyone enlightenment in 5-7 years. It wasn't a promise but it was a standard part of the 3-days checking notes. 5-8 years was the predicted time to reach CC. All initiators said this every time they taught TM. It was nice and quiet before you barged in spoiling for a fight with Judy. Huh? Rory couldn't have been nicer. He was expressing genuine appreciation for Judy. He was downright obsequious. You just undid two weeks of genuine effort on everyone's part to be civil to each other and then you have to act like an ankle-biting pundit just like they do on AMT. I guess llundrub was right - this forum really sucks, thanks to the Maharishi-bashers who are more obsessed with the comings and goings of the Maharishi than the TMers are.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 geoff@ wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Make that 4. bowing respectfully to all Thanks, guys. also thanks in advance to anybody else who wants to chime in, hint, hint Judy earned my respect years ago on a.m.t., and I agree with you about the Barry-Judy wars. Judy wields a razor sharp intellect that far surpasses that of most, if not all the people she debates online, Not sure of that, but being an editor does give me a bit of an advantage in this medium. and as a result, she leaves behind a virtual battlefield of shredded, battered egos. Also, based on what I've learned from Petra, who has very strong Mars characteristics, men often don't appreciate powerful women, and I think that adds to the rancor felt by the men who cross her path. E.g, Skolnick's 'Junkyard Dog' page is, IMO, nothing more than a shrine to his own microphallus. guffaw There's nothing sadder than men who like to think of themselves as alpha males but who lack the, er, equipment.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: new.morning wrote: I am not sure if promise is the word, but in Nov 1967 in Berkeley MMY talked specifically about how TM would result in CC in 5 years for students -- and even had a pamphlet to go along with it which had the 5 years in writing. Maybe so, but I helped Jerry Jarvis set up SIMS at Berkely in 1967 and I was in charge of all printed literature at that time - no pamplet made that claim that I ever sent to the printer. Would that be the Jerry Jarvis that you claim was bald or the real one that most of us dealt with??
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
5 out of 1243 members explicitly like your posts. Not bad when you super radiance it. Square root of 1% = 3.5. You pass the cosmic threshold. Out of curiousity and for fun, if you care to share, per Alex's post, do you have a strong Mars? In what house? (in jyotish or western). I have a strong Mars so perhaps I tend to appreciate others who do. Perhaps if we don't incinerated each other first with glares. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 geoff@ wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Make that 4. bowing respectfully to all Thanks, guys. also thanks in advance to anybody else who wants to chime in, hint, hint Judy earned my respect years ago on a.m.t., and I agree with you about the Barry-Judy wars. Judy wields a razor sharp intellect that far surpasses that of most, if not all the people she debates online, Not sure of that, but being an editor does give me a bit of an advantage in this medium. and as a result, she leaves behind a virtual battlefield of shredded, battered egos. Also, based on what I've learned from Petra, who has very strong Mars characteristics, men often don't appreciate powerful women, and I think that adds to the rancor felt by the men who cross her path. E.g, Skolnick's 'Junkyard Dog' page is, IMO, nothing more than a shrine to his own microphallus. guffaw There's nothing sadder than men who like to think of themselves as alpha males but who lack the, er, equipment.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
A commanding appearance. Argumentative ability. You become a Mars is under star 3-Krttika, renowned lawyer or military or police officer or associates with the and Mars is in star quarter # government. You will run after other's spouses. It has been noticed 1 . that some kind of poisonous substance will be unknowingly eaten by you, which may either cause death or paralysis to certain portion of the body. Suffers from sharp fever, cerebral meningitis, injury or wound in the head or face. You can have good profit from the business of steel and stainless steel or explosive materials or from match boxes. Best results will be felt during the main period of the Sun and sub-period of Mars and vice-verse. Best result will also be felt whenever Mars or Sun transit this segment. Mars makes you very energetic and active. You work whole-heartedly Aries is in 11, and Mars is in and constantly get promoted. But you are never satisfied with your 11. status or your income: you want more, seek more, get more, and still strive for greater heights. There is always optimism in your outlook; you inspire courage and enthusiasm in others. You are a dependable friend, have very few children, and are devoted to religion and its observances. Infamous acts. Deceptive and suffer from mental anguish. Mars conjoins Saturn. Contentious but not intelligent. You will, however, be a connoisseur of music and drama. Irreligious, quarrelsome, and of a thievish mentality. Clever in metallurgy and in creating an atmosphere which, though unreal, will have a semblance of reality (as is done with silver and gold-plated articles or by jugglers or in circus shows). You may suffer from diseases arising out of bile and wind and also suffers mentally or physically from a chronic disease. May be expert in jugglery, deceit, be a liar, a thief and unhappy, and may be troubled by attacks or poisons. You are very active, idealistic, independent, original, hasty, impulsive, Mars is in Aries. adventurous, dashing personality, combative, fear of fire, accidents and fevers. Mark on head. Splendorous, truthful, valorous, a leader, fond of war (competition), adventurous and bold, an army chief, head of a group, delighted, charitable, endowed with necessary supplies for endeavors, goes to many mates. On Apr 4, 2007, at 6:54 PM, new.morning wrote: 5 out of 1243 members explicitly like your posts. Not bad when you super radiance it. Square root of 1% = 3.5. You pass the cosmic threshold. Out of curiousity and for fun, if you care to share, per Alex's post, do you have a strong Mars? In what house? (in jyotish or western). I have a strong Mars so perhaps I tend to appreciate others who do. Perhaps if we don't incinerated each other first with glares.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 5 out of 1243 members explicitly like your posts. Not bad when you super radiance it. Square root of 1% = 3.5. You pass the cosmic threshold. Add me too. I like Judy's clarity and strong intellect. I don't understand all this mood against her here recently and it truely annoys me. Some people just throw around opinions and cannot stand a discussion. IMHO just lazyness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 5 out of 1243 members explicitly like your posts. Not bad when you super radiance it. Square root of 1% = 3.5. You pass the cosmic threshold. Out of curiousity and for fun, if you care to share, per Alex's post, do you have a strong Mars? In what house? (in jyotish or western). In Taurus, 11th house (Western), in a stellium with Moon, Uranus, and Saturn (Saturn conjunction is within 10 minutes). I've always had the sense my Mars has too much competition for its influence to come through very strongly. I'm Pisces sun (in the 9th), Cancer rising. (Practically nothing in the cookbook mess Vaj just posted applies.) I have a strong Mars so perhaps I tend to appreciate others who do. Perhaps if we don't incinerated each other first with glares. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 geoff@ wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Make that 4. bowing respectfully to all Thanks, guys. also thanks in advance to anybody else who wants to chime in, hint, hint Judy earned my respect years ago on a.m.t., and I agree with you about the Barry-Judy wars. Judy wields a razor sharp intellect that far surpasses that of most, if not all the people she debates online, Not sure of that, but being an editor does give me a bit of an advantage in this medium. and as a result, she leaves behind a virtual battlefield of shredded, battered egos. Also, based on what I've learned from Petra, who has very strong Mars characteristics, men often don't appreciate powerful women, and I think that adds to the rancor felt by the men who cross her path. E.g, Skolnick's 'Junkyard Dog' page is, IMO, nothing more than a shrine to his own microphallus. guffaw There's nothing sadder than men who like to think of themselves as alpha males but who lack the, er, equipment.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- Jerry initiated me into TM on July 10-th, 1967. He was bald but combed the remaining hair from the sides over on top of his head, giving the appearance of some hair. And yes, the literature made a cc claim of 5 or 7 years. I forgot which. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willytex@ wrote: new.morning wrote: I am not sure if promise is the word, but in Nov 1967 in Berkeley MMY talked specifically about how TM would result in CC in 5 years for students -- and even had a pamphlet to go along with it which had the 5 years in writing. Maybe so, but I helped Jerry Jarvis set up SIMS at Berkely in 1967 and I was in charge of all printed literature at that time - no pamplet made that claim that I ever sent to the printer. Would that be the Jerry Jarvis that you claim was bald or the real one that most of us dealt with??
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: 5 out of 1243 members explicitly like your posts. Not bad when you super radiance it. Square root of 1% = 3.5. You pass the cosmic threshold. Out of curiousity and for fun, if you care to share, per Alex's post, do you have a strong Mars? In what house? (in jyotish or western). In Taurus, 11th house (Western), in a stellium with Moon, Uranus, and Saturn (Saturn conjunction is within 10 minutes). I've always had the sense my Mars has too much competition for its influence to come through very strongly. I'm Pisces sun (in the 9th), Cancer rising. (Practically nothing in the cookbook mess Vaj just posted applies.) I have a strong Mars so perhaps I tend to appreciate others who do. Perhaps if we don't incinerated each other first with glares. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coulsong2001 geoff@ wrote: I hardly ever post here, but I read FFL quite a bit and I absolutely second Rory and New.morning here. I'm no true believer, but I'm a great fan of Judy's incisive thinking and writing. Apart from when things get too convoluted (e.g. in the Barry-Judy wars), I enjoy almost all of her posts. So that makes 3 of us. Make that 4. bowing respectfully to all Thanks, guys. also thanks in advance to anybody else who wants to chime in, hint, hint Judy earned my respect years ago on a.m.t., and I agree with you about the Barry-Judy wars. Judy wields a razor sharp intellect that far surpasses that of most, if not all the people she debates online, Not sure of that, but being an editor does give me a bit of an advantage in this medium. and as a result, she leaves behind a virtual battlefield of shredded, battered egos. Also, based on what I've learned from Petra, who has very strong Mars characteristics, men often don't appreciate powerful women, and I think that adds to the rancor felt by the men who cross her path. E.g, Skolnick's 'Junkyard Dog' page is, IMO, nothing more than a shrine to his own microphallus. guffaw There's nothing sadder than men who like to think of themselves as alpha males but who lack the, er, equipment.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yeah, un pack it for me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yeah, un pack it for me. shaking water off hands Your job.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
e benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror? Yes I do. What an inappropriate response. WTF? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Hey Judy, Good on ya for the wave of positive press on FFL lately. It is deserved. Despite our disagreements, the fact that you read my stuff and send it back with hard topspin makes you a big part of what I dig here. I think there has been a cool change in the way people are posting and I am learning from it. I think the fact that you caught a lot of heat recently (including from me) and now there is a nice wave of people giving respect is a sign that it is going to be a good Spring here on FFL. To be encouraged to write is such a huge benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror?e benefit for me. Thanks. e benefit for me. Thanks. Curtis, do you ever look in a mirror?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Mar 31, 2007, at 11:40 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. It leaks into every discussion. No one has blown holes in anything. We are all offering our own point of view. Your insistence that yours is the superior one is what turns this into an unpleasant discussion. Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. Tom T: The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. See definition below and see why most people on this chat have had enough of her and her harassment. Pick your favorite word to describe her behavior. snip Interesting! For a Jaimini-on-the-other-hand, I woke up on the morning of April 1st thinking about Judy, and feeling such gratitude for her -- you know, Judy, you chopped my angry arguments/stories up so nicely on amt back in 2002 that they really died then and there -- with your help I saw they had no real basis in rationality, and so I quit trying to support/feed them, and simply paid attention to the pain behind the stories, and watched them dissolve into such love Anyhow, as I said, I was thinking about you, and seeing you as a kind of Jedi-Judy, weilding such a perfect, laser-sharp light-sword of discrimination and chopping everyone's head off, or rather simply holding the sword out and watching them run right into it :-) and then I realized you were (for me) such a perfect incarnation of Durga, that I spent about two hours that morning worshipping you as Durga, and then was wondering whether to come on FFL to tell you that or not, and worried that if I did it on the 1st people would think it was some kind of April Fool's gag, and then on reading FFL I noticed Doug Hamilton said there had been a Durga puja at his house that very morning at that same time, and I just loved the synchronicity of it all and was rendered temporarily speechless... but anyway, Judy, I *have* read all of your posts and I for one adore your balance, your brilliance, your precision, and your intense *compassion* and wanted to let you know FFWIW you are not entirely alone or misunderstood here. Love * Light * Laughter Rory
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Rory Goff wrote: Judy, you chopped my angry arguments/stories up so nicely on amt back in 2002 that they really died then and there... You must be dreaming, Rory - there's no Judy/Rory dialog on AMT from 2002. What's up with that? http://groups.google.com/advanced_search?q=hl=en; There is this: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: willytex Date: 18 Jul 2003 10:15:23 -0700 Subject: Off the Program http://tinyurl.com/yvaxnj Sometime in October, Nancy M. introduced me to Robin Carlson, who was enjoying a rather large cult-following in Fairfield at that time. Read more: Rory Goff: A Spiritual Autobiography: http://www.artesmagicae.com/auto4a.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Interesting! For a Jaimini-on-the-other-hand, I woke up on the morning of April 1st thinking about Judy, and feeling such gratitude for her -- you know, Judy, you chopped my angry arguments/stories up so nicely on amt back in 2002 that they really died then and there -- with your help I saw they had no real basis in rationality, and so I quit trying to support/feed them, and simply paid attention to the pain behind the stories, and watched them dissolve into such love Anyhow, as I said, I was thinking about you, and seeing you as a kind of Jedi-Judy, weilding such a perfect, laser- sharp light-sword of discrimination and chopping everyone's head off, or rather simply holding the sword out and watching them run right into it :-) and then I realized you were (for me) such a perfect incarnation of Durga, that I spent about two hours that morning worshipping you as Durga, and then was wondering whether to come on FFL to tell you that or not, and worried that if I did it on the 1st people would think it was some kind of April Fool's gag, and then on reading FFL I noticed Doug Hamilton said there had been a Durga puja at his house that very morning at that same time, and I just loved the synchronicity of it all and was rendered temporarily speechless... but anyway, Judy, I *have* read all of your posts and I for one adore your balance, your brilliance, your precision, and your intense *compassion* and wanted to let you know FFWIW you are not entirely alone or misunderstood here. Love * Light * Laughter Uh... at a loss for words If all that's for real, Rory, thank you. (The truth, as they say, is probably somewhere in between moi as Jedi-Judy incarnation of Durga and as lowlife scum Harasser-in-Chief.) What name were you posting under on alt.m.t back in 2002? If I was able to be of assistance to you in any way, I'm delighted.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rory Goff Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 1:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and I noticed Doug Hamilton said there had been a Durga puja at his house that very morning at that same time, and I just loved the synchronicity of it all and was rendered temporarily speechless... but anyway, Judy, I *have* read all of your posts and I for one adore your balance, your brilliance, your precision, and your intense *compassion* and wanted to let you know FFWIW you are not entirely alone or misunderstood here. Love * Light * Laughter Rory Talk about synchronicity, I was just thinking yesterday how nice it would be to have Rory back on FFL, and here you are. Do not try to resist. You are under my control. It would also be nice to have you back in the Wed. night meetings.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uh... at a loss for words If all that's for real, Rory, thank you. (The truth, as they say, is probably somewhere in between moi as Jedi-Judy incarnation of Durga and as lowlife scum Harasser-in-Chief.) What name were you posting under on alt.m.t back in 2002? If I was able to be of assistance to you in any way, I'm delighted. Yes, it is all for real, Judy; thank You! You do my heart such good. I think it was as mleroygoffiv, though I am not certain. I remember I launched in with one of my patented rails against the TMO and gradual-enlightenment seekerdom and promptly lost my head on your sword ... Barry defended my POV, and Barry and I agreed with each other so completely you were wondering (you said) if I was a shill or alter-ego of Barry's -- if he had known me previously offline and brought me in to amt! But no; it was all just one of Nature's little jokes or dances, I guess. Anyway, thank you too, Barry, for your kind words and support at that time, but IMO Judy was clearer than either of us was. It was (in retrospect) a great joy to yield my demoniac head to her. Anyway, after getting my ego-anger utterly shredded, I felt so good and full that I simply lost the urge to argue and prove myself right. I am pretty sure it was in the spring of 2002, as it was just before my 10th wedding anniversary, though memory can certainly play tricks on me. Anyhow, over the years I have come to appreciate you there and here more and more, Judy, and have been meaning to thank you for all you've done for all of us. And thank you too, Rick, for cutting the number of posts to 5 to give us some silence to breathe and space to think-feel; I think it was in large part this surgery that allows me to express my gratitude. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Talk about synchronicity, I was just thinking yesterday how nice it would be to have Rory back on FFL, and here you are. Do not try to resist. You are under my control. It would also be nice to have you back in the Wed. night meetings. *lol* Limit us each to 5 posts per Satsang and I'm there! Love you, Rick :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Uh... at a loss for words If all that's for real, Rory, thank you. (The truth, as they say, is probably somewhere in between moi as Jedi-Judy incarnation of Durga and as lowlife scum Harasser-in-Chief.) What name were you posting under on alt.m.t back in 2002? If I was able to be of assistance to you in any way, I'm delighted. Yes, it is all for real, Judy; thank You! You do my heart such good. I think it was as mleroygoffiv, though I am not certain. I remember I launched in with one of my patented rails against the TMO and gradual-enlightenment seekerdom and promptly lost my head on your sword ... Barry defended my POV, and Barry and I agreed with each other so completely you were wondering (you said) if I was a shill or alter-ego of Barry's -- if he had known me previously offline and brought me in to amt! But no; it was all just one of Nature's little jokes or dances, I guess. Huh. I remember a long discussion sometime in 2002 with a guy using the name Samuel who was touting Reiki and signed his posts Love and light, but Barry's participation was pretty much limited to dumping on Reiki, as I recall. Anyway, thank you too, Barry, for your kind words and support at that time, but IMO Judy was clearer than either of us was. It was (in retrospect) a great joy to yield my demoniac head to her. Anyway, after getting my ego-anger utterly shredded, I felt so good and full that I simply lost the urge to argue and prove myself right. I am pretty sure it was in the spring of 2002, as it was just before my 10th wedding anniversary, though memory can certainly play tricks on me. Couldn't have been me if it was spring 2002! I had been away from the newsgroup, didn't come back until mid-June (I returned because Joe Kellett had been accusing me *in absentia* of being a well- known defender of Scientology, of all nutty things). No big deal, I was just curious. Anyhow, over the years I have come to appreciate you there and here more and more, Judy, and have been meaning to thank you for all you've done for all of us. Well, er, you're certainly welcome!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Rory Goff wrote: I remember I launched in with one of my patented rails against the TMO and gradual-enlightenment seekerdom and promptly lost my head on your sword... Barry defended my POV, and Barry and I agreed with each other so completely... jstein wrote: I had been away from the newsgroup, didn't come back until mid-June... So, no Rory Goff on AMT in 2002 dialoging with Judy; no Uncle Tantra dialoging with Rory on AMT in 2002; but the mystery of who started the lie that the Maharishi once said that enlightenment could be achieved in 5-7 years is now solved: Rory Goff. But why would Rory come here and lie about Judy and Barry? Apparently Rory made a mistake. Go figure. Finally, he declared himself infallible; he actually said, I never make mistakes, which immediately reminded me of many errors he had made: first claiming that all meditators would reach Cosmic Consciousness in a few months, later adjusting the estimate upward to two-to-three years, then readjusting up to three-to-five years, then up again to five-to-eight years... Read more: Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental From: Petrus Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: Re: 5 to 8 yrs to Enlightenment !! http://tinyurl.com/2muq22
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, no Rory Goff on AMT in 2002 dialoging with Judy; no Uncle Tantra dialoging with Rory on AMT in 2002; but the mystery of who started the lie that the Maharishi once said that enlightenment could be achieved in 5-7 years is now solved: Rory Goff. But why would Rory come here and lie about Judy and Barry? Apparently Rory made a mistake. *lol* certainly wouldn't be surprised; I make them constantly. (Who doesn't?) Maybe it wasn't AMT. Was there another TM-group that Bob Brigante (he was there too) and Judy and Barry were on, early in 2002? Or maybe my time-sense has dilated and it was very late in 2001. Don't know; don't really care. I do know the sign-in wan't as Rory Goff, but it wasn't Samuel. I have never signed with Love Light, but always (if at all) with Love, Light, and Laughter -- my version of Sat, Chit, Ananda, or Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas, or Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva, the poles (Love Laughter) and center (Light) of the hiranyagarbha-field. As far as MMY goes, I am (finally) comfortable with his (and my) making mistakes *and* being perfectly infallible simultaneously, like all of Creation, like all of us. *Unlike* all of us, as far as consciousness goes, he is still far and away the most impressive person on the planet I've ever met. Listening to him, being with him on the Invincible America course last year was more of a heart- breaking mind-blower than ever, while simultaneously completely simple, nothing other than myself. I may have to update that old bio sometime...it's seriously out of date re my love and appreciation of MMY, and of the Dome, and of the TMO. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:22 PM, Rory Goff wrote: I have never signed with Love Light, but always (if at all) with Love, Light, and Laughter -- my version of Sat, Chit, Ananda, or Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas, or Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva How about Moe, Larry and Curly? I think maybe Judy is confusing your sign-off line with the Love and LIght that Lou Valentino signs his posts with here. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
So, no Rory Goff on AMT in 2002 dialoging with Judy; no Uncle Tantra dialoging with Rory on AMT in 2002; but the mystery of who started the lie that the Maharishi once said that enlightenment could be achieved in 5-7 years is now solved: Rory Goff. But why would Rory come here and lie about Judy and Barry? Apparently Rory made a mistake. Rory Goff wrote: Maybe it wasn't AMT. So, in fact, Rory, you owe Judy an apology. And the Maharishi apparently never did promise anyone enlightenment in 5-7 years. It was nice and quiet before you barged in spoiling for a fight with Judy. You just undid two weeks of genuine effort on everyone's part to be civil to each other and then you have to act like an ankle-biting pundit just like they do on AMT. I guess llundrub was right - this forum really sucks, thanks to the Maharishi-bashers who are more obsessed with the comings and goings of the Maharishi than the TMers are. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the Maharishi apparently never did promise anyone enlightenment in 5-7 years. I am not sure if promise is the word, but in Nov 1967 in Berkeley MMY talked specifically about how TM would result in CC in 5 years for students -- and even had a pamphlet to go along with it which had the 5 years in writing. The impression of many -- and most of my friends and peers at the time -- was that doing the program for five years faithfully would result in CC. It was a common assumption, a given, in those days.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maybe it wasn't AMT. Was there another TM-group that Bob Brigante (he was there too) and Judy and Barry were on, early in 2002? Or maybe my time-sense has dilated and it was very late in 2001. TMNews, and it was spring 2002. But it was Joe Kellett, not Barry; Barry was never on TMNews, as far as I know. You and Joe were singing the same song about suggestibility, among other things. I never connected the person I was arguing with on TMNews with you here on FFL until just now!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rory Goff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyhow, as I said, I was thinking about you, and seeing you as a kind of Jedi-Judy, weilding such a perfect, laser-sharp light-sword of discrimination and chopping everyone's head off, or rather simply holding the sword out and watching them run right into it :-) In a similar vein, though I am perhaps not as emphatic and colorful as Rory, I like Judy's focus, insight and logic in many of her posts. It is interesting to see her view and process unfold when she takes on a topic. That is not to say that I always agree with her conclusions. I may evaluate and weigh the supporting arguments differently than her -- or have additional points I might consider. And some topics I am not intereted in (her past issues with turq). While Rory and I apparently are in a minority, I think she regularly makes a strong contribution and and often provides excellent examples of precise thinking and exposition. I also regularly enjoy Curtis and Marek's post for similiar reasons. For me the value in a post is not does it support your existing POV's, but rather, does it help you see things from a new angle. Does the piercing look of the writer help uncover new things, or reveal processes to do such. I find all three posters do that for me -- yet clearly their conculsions differ.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:22 PM, Rory Goff wrote: I have never signed with Love Light, but always (if at all) with Love, Light, and Laughter -- my version of Sat, Chit, Ananda, or Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas, or Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva How about Moe, Larry and Curly? I think maybe Judy is confusing your sign-off line with the Love and LIght that Lou Valentino signs his posts with here. Uh, no. We were talking about alt.m.t and a guy who used the name Samuel. Anyway, turns out Rory was on TMNews, and his sign-off was LLL.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip In a similar vein, though I am perhaps not as emphatic and colorful as Rory, *Nobody* is as emphatic and colorful as Rory. I like Judy's focus, insight and logic in many of her posts. It is interesting to see her view and process unfold when she takes on a topic. Thankee!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willytex@ wrote: And the Maharishi apparently never did promise anyone enlightenment in 5-7 years. I am not sure if promise is the word, but in Nov 1967 in Berkeley MMY talked specifically about how TM would result in CC in 5 years for students -- and even had a pamphlet to go along with it which had the 5 years in writing. The impression of many -- and most of my friends and peers at the time -- was that doing the program for five years faithfully would result in CC. It was a common assumption, a given, in those days. Yep, that was the word back in the day, understood by most everyone.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Thanks for the clue Vaj, that is really interesting. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 1, 2007, at 10:41 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. I was fascinated by what you said about Guru Dev being known for displaying miracles. Any more info or sources I can find? In terms of written comment, the only one that comes to mind (and please keep in mind keeping a running track of TM quotes or references isn't something I've really done for years) is from Cenkner's book on the Shankaracharya Order. The book does have some known errors, so it should be viewed with some care. Cenkner mentions SBS's habit of starting ritual fires. He supposedly could do this with a glance or wave of the hand. This was also extremely upsetting to the Brahmans officiating over the various rites, so it must've stirred some controversy at the time. There are other claims, but the best I would say is that they are anecdotal accounts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand the distinction you are making. I'll give it some more thought. Our discussions have improved over time and I did not acknowledge that. Thank you. Did you read my post #136670? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. Arf. Trouble is, you misunderstood. I was explicit that I was not putting you down for quitting TM, but you (and Vaj, of course) missed that entirely.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. See definition below and see why most people on this chat have had enough of her and her harassment. Completely oblivious to his own double standards. The inability of many on this group to see the whole picture is really quite remarkable. (And no, geez, it's not a matter of any kind of inferiority). One of the most interesting aspects is that when someone decides to call me out, they tend to do so on the basis of what someone else has said *about* me, instead of on the basis of what *I* said.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. So, it's all about Judy.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Yeah, but now we have to endure five mind numbingly boring and obnoxious bottom posts of yours riffing on Judy's I'm smarter than you riff. For God's sake, stop feeding it! geezerfreak wrote: Post 10,269 wherein Judy again riffs on her I'm smarter than you theme. It is mind numbingly boring and obnoxious. Thank god (and Rick) that we only have to endure 5 of these a day now.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Hey T3inity, That was really an interesting post! Sounds like you are really deep into Indian culture. I would love to visit again. I know that MMY has deviated from the traditional teachers in India and caught flack for it from the traditional guys. I was wondering if Guru Dev also exhibited this trait. I may be wrong and your post certainly makes a case for that. I find your travel stories and the people you meet fascinating, thanks for posting in such detail. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I only spent a short time in India with MMY. I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you mean the empirical movement hit the West harder and I agree that it hit there harder, first. India is catching up fast now. Yes, but don't forget, we are talking of a time 50 years back. Smaller and more conservative middleclass then. Rural India is as full of miracle stories as rural Mexico. And because India has such a large superstitious rural population it is easy to forget the middle class types who view miracle stories with the same suspicion many Westerners do. I have heard the same skepticism of Sai Baba's tricks from Indians. They have the perspective that miracles may be possible but they are skeptical of people cashing in on these claims. The scepticism about Sai Baba is definitely there in India, as there have been relevatory videos (still millions believe in him). But I was citing Shirdi Baba who is dead since long, and he was a great miracle man. Most spiritual inclined Indians do not doubt him. Judging all Indian culture by what uneducated Indians believe doesn't do the whole range of Indian perspectives justice. I also detect a wry humor about all these claims from Middle Class Indians. Most of them have seen more spiritual scams in their youth then we will in our lifetime. That may well be. My point though is: Belief in miracles and the exhibition of Siddhis by saints is standard in a conservative religious milieu in India. It still is and it was even more so in 1952-56 I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. Me: I caught a late plane once. If you fly a lot this will happen. My point here was not the happening itself, it could be easily explained as coincidence, but simply the fact that for this man it was proof of the spiritual magnitude of Maharishi. For me meeting such a person was as such more interesting than the story. He was an authentic witness of the impact Maharishi was having at the conception of TM. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Me: It happens all the time. How come miracle stories don't involve the curing of cancer or AIDS? They do don't they? Again my topic is not the miracles as such, but the belief in them. My point: To believe in siddhis or hint at them was something expected from a great saint. Its likely Maharishi and Guru Dev believed in this themselves. They were not your modern day Indian middle class sceptic. Therefore I don't see here an attempt to treachery or go for the gullible westerner. Anyway, this was found in the early texts that were conceived in India. There wasn't any idea of the west yet in Maharishis 1952 introduction, when Guru Dev came to Delhi Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) Me: I'm not sure what is being claimed here. The belief that a tree has a positive effect on meditation is certainly outside of your western rationalism. The story proofs that Maharishi believed in it and thus wasn't a rationalist. If Maharishi was a rationalist and would tell people about siddhis, he would be deceiving them consciously. But of course he isn't When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Vaj wrote: The book does have some known errors.. What known errors would that be?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about miracles much. They talk about love. They feel uncomfortable with people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague great spirit and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West. Thanks for asking. Any insight is appreciated. More West than East. I think the ratioanlist movement hit the west harder than India (you have never been there I guess). In India if you believe in God, you pretty much believe in miracles. If you don't believe in divine intervention (which is sort of always outside of the scientific paradigma), what's the point? Any great saint will be judged according to if he can perform miracles. Look at Shirdi Sai Baba, the greatest and best known of all the Gurus's. His spiritual career started with a miracle (he transformed water inro oil). No temple, where not miracles are attributed to. So if you talk about 'mainstream religious types', you must be talking about the ones you know - that is in the west, maybe in TV - certainly not in rural India. Each time I come to India I hear stories of mirales. Me: I only spent a short time in India with MMY. I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you mean the empirical movement hit the West harder and I agree that it hit there harder, first. India is catching up fast now. Rural India is as full of miracle stories as rural Mexico. And because India has such a large superstitious rural population it is easy to forget the middle class types who view miracle stories with the same suspicion many Westerners do. I have heard the same skepticism of Sai Baba's tricks from Indians. They have the perspective that miracles may be possible but they are skeptical of people cashing in on these claims. Judging all Indian culture by what uneducated Indians believe doesn't do the whole range of Indian perspectives justice. I also detect a wry humor about all these claims from Middle Class Indians. Most of them have seen more spiritual scams in their youth then we will in our lifetime. I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. Me: I caught a late plane once. If you fly a lot this will happen. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Me: It happens all the time. How come miracle stories don't involve the curing of cancer or AIDS? Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) Me: I'm not sure what is being claimed here. When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. Me: Nicely put. There are conditions under which you could test such a physical claim. I'll be no one is jumping in to impose the kind of test conditions one would need. It would cause a riot. I agree with your point about
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. I was fascinated by what you said about Guru Dev being known for displaying miracles. Any more info or sources I can find? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 31, 2007, at 11:40 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. It leaks into every discussion. No one has blown holes in anything. We are all offering our own point of view. Your insistence that yours is the superior one is what turns this into an unpleasant discussion. Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. Arf. Trouble is, you misunderstood. I was explicit that I was not putting you down for quitting TM, but you (and Vaj, of course) missed that entirely.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
I understand the distinction you are making. I'll give it some more thought. Our discussions have improved over time and I did not acknowledge that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. Arf. Trouble is, you misunderstood. I was explicit that I was not putting you down for quitting TM, but you (and Vaj, of course) missed that entirely.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I only spent a short time in India with MMY. I agree with part of what you wrote. I think you mean the empirical movement hit the West harder and I agree that it hit there harder, first. India is catching up fast now. Yes, but don't forget, we are talking of a time 50 years back. Smaller and more conservative middleclass then. Rural India is as full of miracle stories as rural Mexico. And because India has such a large superstitious rural population it is easy to forget the middle class types who view miracle stories with the same suspicion many Westerners do. I have heard the same skepticism of Sai Baba's tricks from Indians. They have the perspective that miracles may be possible but they are skeptical of people cashing in on these claims. The scepticism about Sai Baba is definitely there in India, as there have been relevatory videos (still millions believe in him). But I was citing Shirdi Baba who is dead since long, and he was a great miracle man. Most spiritual inclined Indians do not doubt him. Judging all Indian culture by what uneducated Indians believe doesn't do the whole range of Indian perspectives justice. I also detect a wry humor about all these claims from Middle Class Indians. Most of them have seen more spiritual scams in their youth then we will in our lifetime. That may well be. My point though is: Belief in miracles and the exhibition of Siddhis by saints is standard in a conservative religious milieu in India. It still is and it was even more so in 1952-56 I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. Me: I caught a late plane once. If you fly a lot this will happen. My point here was not the happening itself, it could be easily explained as coincidence, but simply the fact that for this man it was proof of the spiritual magnitude of Maharishi. For me meeting such a person was as such more interesting than the story. He was an authentic witness of the impact Maharishi was having at the conception of TM. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Me: It happens all the time. How come miracle stories don't involve the curing of cancer or AIDS? They do don't they? Again my topic is not the miracles as such, but the belief in them. My point: To believe in siddhis or hint at them was something expected from a great saint. Its likely Maharishi and Guru Dev believed in this themselves. They were not your modern day Indian middle class sceptic. Therefore I don't see here an attempt to treachery or go for the gullible westerner. Anyway, this was found in the early texts that were conceived in India. There wasn't any idea of the west yet in Maharishis 1952 introduction, when Guru Dev came to Delhi Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) Me: I'm not sure what is being claimed here. The belief that a tree has a positive effect on meditation is certainly outside of your western rationalism. The story proofs that Maharishi believed in it and thus wasn't a rationalist. If Maharishi was a rationalist and would tell people about siddhis, he would be deceiving them consciously. But of course he isn't When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. Me: Nicely put. There are conditions under which you could test such a physical claim. I'll be no one is jumping in to impose the kind of test conditions one would need. It
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. Arf. Trouble is, you misunderstood. I was explicit that I was not putting you down for quitting TM, but you (and Vaj, of course) missed that entirely. Post 10,269 wherein Judy again riffs on her I'm smarter than you theme. It is mind numbingly boring and obnoxious. Thank god (and Rick) that we only have to endure 5 of these a day now.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
On Apr 1, 2007, at 10:41 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place. Because I enjoy it until I don't! I used to have a scotty dog as a kid. We would play ball till he got so revved up he would bite me. Then I knew it was time to quit. It was basically a good dog though. I was fascinated by what you said about Guru Dev being known for displaying miracles. Any more info or sources I can find? In terms of written comment, the only one that comes to mind (and please keep in mind keeping a running track of TM quotes or references isn't something I've really done for years) is from Cenkner's book on the Shankaracharya Order. The book does have some known errors, so it should be viewed with some care. Cenkner mentions SBS's habit of starting ritual fires. He supposedly could do this with a glance or wave of the hand. This was also extremely upsetting to the Brahmans officiating over the various rites, so it must've stirred some controversy at the time. There are other claims, but the best I would say is that they are anecdotal accounts.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
On Mar 31, 2007, at 11:40 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. It leaks into every discussion. No one has blown holes in anything. We are all offering our own point of view. Your insistence that yours is the superior one is what turns this into an unpleasant discussion. Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. Tom T: The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. See definition below and see why most people on this chat have had enough of her and her harassment. Pick your favorite word to describe her behavior. ha•rass (h?-ra-s', ha-r'?s) Pronunciation Key tr.v. ha•rassed, ha•rass•ing, ha•rass•es 1. To irritate or torment persistently. 2. To wear out; exhaust. 3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids. 1. to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute. 2. to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or hostilities; harry; raid. harassment 1. a feeling of intense annoyance caused by being tormented; so great was his harassment that he wanted to destroy his tormentors 2. the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus - Cite This Source Main Entry: harassment Part of Speech: noun Definition: badgering Synonyms: aggravation, annoyance, bedevilment, bother, bothering, disturbance, exasperation, hassle, irking, irritation, molestation, nuisance, persecution, perturbation, pestering, provocation, provoking, torment, trouble, vexation, vexing
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
The problem with being kicked off of FFLife is that it sort of qualifies one to be here, vexing or not. Tom T: The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. See definition below and see why most people on this chat have had enough of her and her harassment. Pick your favorite word to describe her behavior. ha.rass (h?-ra-s', ha-r'?s) Pronunciation Key tr.v. ha.rassed, ha.rass.ing, ha.rass.es 1. To irritate or torment persistently. 2. To wear out; exhaust. 3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids. 1. to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute. 2. to trouble by repeated attacks, incursions, etc., as in war or hostilities; harry; raid. harassment 1. a feeling of intense annoyance caused by being tormented; so great was his harassment that he wanted to destroy his tormentors 2. the act of tormenting by continued persistent attacks and criticism Roget's New MillenniumT Thesaurus - Cite This Source Main Entry: harassment Part of Speech: noun Definition: badgering Synonyms: aggravation, annoyance, bedevilment, bother, bothering, disturbance, exasperation, hassle, irking, irritation, molestation, nuisance, persecution, perturbation, pestering, provocation, provoking, torment, trouble, vexation, vexing To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and
Tom T: The behavior that Judy continues to exhibit falls under the title of harassment. See definition below and see why most people on this chat have had enough of her and her harassment. Pick your favorite word to describe her behavior. snip I was the one who advocated not piling on, BUT, Judy seems to have no consciousness, (if I may use this term), that this is what she is doing. She is just setting the record straight. She is just defending the faith, or as her chief antaganist says, defending the small s. I acknowledge her I AM presence, BUT I don't see any change happening, not at this juncture anyway. lurk
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about miracles much. They talk about love. They feel uncomfortable with people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague great spirit and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West. Thanks for asking. Any insight is appreciated. More West than East. I think the ratioanlist movement hit the west harder than India (you have never been there I guess). In India if you believe in God, you pretty much believe in miracles. If you don't believe in divine intervention (which is sort of always outside of the scientific paradigma), what's the point? Any great saint will be judged according to if he can perform miracles. Look at Shirdi Sai Baba, the greatest and best known of all the Gurus's. His spiritual career started with a miracle (he transformed water inro oil). No temple, where not miracles are attributed to. So if you talk about 'mainstream religious types', you must be talking about the ones you know - that is in the west, maybe in TV - certainly not in rural India. Each time I come to India I hear stories of mirales. I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you see the ST2 gals again, say hello for Uncle Tantra, even though it's likely I never knew them. They'll probably not know me, but they might know Road Trip Mind. And if they do, it's probably a coin flip as to whether they like it or hate it. Even *within* the ranks of those who shared extra- ordinary experiences there are differences of opinion on how to view them. And that's OK. I will see them again, but not before June, as they help prepare Mother Meeras trip to New York. I already aksed one of them if she knew an Uncle Tantra, and she didn't. Anyway, she said that Rama was always nice to her, and she was with him when he died (or was about to die). He was very sick and had a lot of pain. From her mouth, a possible suicide sounded like a thing that could be understood in such a situation, when you are terminally ill and full of pain. About miracles: I almost daily experience the sharing of thoughts and emotions with other people. I mean really having the same mind-stuff with others, and expressing it simultaneausly. (I don't say reading of thoughts as it is questionable where the thoughts originate - with my friends here I have a lot of fun about 'stealing thoughts')On a purely rational basis this could not happen, because everything is just a projection of grey matter, no mind outside would exist, no God either. OTOH the world that we see is very much the projection of our minds (my belief). If I believe in thought transmission, I could easily believe in th manipulation of my thought projection from outside - the Castanedean model- why not. Which of course is what we describe as miracles. On a small scale I experience this daily. On a larger scale, I am relatively sceptical about it (according to my nature), but than again there is no way to rule it out. People probably don't realize, that if they really subscribe to a rationalist world view, not much room for freedom of thought is left. Everything is after all a projection of the brain. That acts purely according to physical laws which are determined by nature from the moment of the Big Bang. Where is the room then for 'individual' decissions? Those decissions are already determined by the brainfunctioning, they only appear to be 'my own'. That is a self-condratiction in the rationalist view - that they want to eradicate superstitions - and at the same time don't believe in an independent spirit.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: If you see the ST2 gals again, say hello for Uncle Tantra, even though it's likely I never knew them. They'll probably not know me, but they might know Road Trip Mind. And if they do, it's probably a coin flip as to whether they like it or hate it. Even *within* the ranks of those who shared extra- ordinary experiences there are differences of opinion on how to view them. And that's OK. I will see them again, but not before June, as they help prepare Mother Meeras trip to New York. I already aksed one of them if she knew an Uncle Tantra, and she didn't. Anyway, she said that Rama was always nice to her, and she was with him when he died (or was about to die). About to die is probably more accurate. Only one person was with him when he died, and she wasn't an ST2. He was very sick and had a lot of pain. From her mouth, a possible suicide sounded like a thing that could be understood in such a situation, when you are terminally ill and full of pain. While I agree about that option if one is dying, just as additional information to feed into the mental hopper when trying to figure this weird Rama guy out is that, while he claimed to his students that he was seriously ill, the autopsy performed after he killed himself found NOTHING wrong with him. If one looks up the symptoms of long-term Valium addiction, all of the symptoms he exhibited during the last years of his life and claimed were the result of some serious illness are right there in print. I suspect that he merely thought he was dying because he wasn't able to admit -- to himself or his students -- that he was strung out. Me, I don't know why he took himself out. I wrote down some of my theories about it in a story (http://ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm53.html), and the bottom line of that story (written now almost ten years ago) is the same bottom line I have now -- I don't know. What a long, strange trip it was. And I'm thank- ful for every minute of it, positive or negative. But strange it definitely was.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
On Mar 31, 2007, at 12:36 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about miracles much. They talk about love. You are aware that the reason SBS is mentioned in magical terms is very likely because he was one of the few Shanks who was known for *public* display of his siddhis. Since siddhi is considered to go side-by-side with realization, it would not be unusual to mention this in a press release. I'm sure once they started occurring publicly, they spread like wildfire in a country like India and were a sign to the masses for a saint of true realization. A side-effect if you will. M. being the constant businessman, would just naturally use that as well for promotion. I think that's all there really is to this. They feel uncomfortable with people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague great spirit and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Lots of stories like this about MMY, and many that have nothing to do with coincidence or synchronicity (bilocation, among other things); Charlie Lutes was apparently fond of telling these. A friend of mine swore he had instantly cured her of a bad cold. And a friend of hers reported that she'd snuck out of a lecture MMY was giving and gone for a walk, musing about whether MMY was really enlightened, when she saw him coming down the path toward her dressed in loud plaid Bermuda shorts, grinning at her. snip This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. I don't know what percentage of people it involves, but in the West there's a good-sized appetite for miracles such as images of the Virgin Mary or Jesus appearing on the sides of buildings and so on (in one recent case, on a grilled cheese sandwich--its owner, after keeping it for 10 years, ultimately put it up for sale on eBay, where a casino bought it for $28,000). There's also a substantial interest in the paranormal-- to use the most general term--occurrences that can't be explained by science but that aren't given any particular religious significance, like Uri Geller's spoon-bending, therapies like homeopathy, and of course UFOs (although some hardcore UFO enthusiasts have made a religion out of them). Is there anything like this in India--popular interest in inexplicable occurrences that don't involve religious belief?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Snark is condescension after two bong hits and a half bag of Oreos. The irony of the rest is too perfect to touch. I enjoy our discussions up to the point that you use it as a tool to criticize me personally, or my style of thinking, instead of talking about the subject. I think we are looking for very different things from our exchanges. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Condescension is not kindness. That wasn't condescension, it was snark. In response to pomposity. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Curtis, Marek has made my points more authoritatively and far more succinctly than I've been able to do, so I'll bow out, except for this: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Your thinking is so very rigid when it suits your purposes, and so very flexible when that works better for you. Agreed. It has taken me years of self development to achieve this. Judy: And you're *proud* of insisting on the evidence when it confirms your beliefs and ignoring it when it doesn't?? Me: I don't see how trying to characterize my thinking process in a negative way advances our discussion Judy. I am not soliciting your help in my general thinking style. You weren't soliciting my help in understanding Guru Dev and MMY either. Why would you be soliciting help anyway if you aren't aware you need it? Just think of it as a random act of kindness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
I really enjoyed what you wrote, Marek, because it represents your personal view of and relationship with Guru Dev. He is a fascinating guy. If he serves as an inspiration for your life then he has a real value. I don't think I have any moral heroes left. Gandhi (who I would be more inclined to admire) did so much good and was such a freak personally. So I have to take the good and ignore the bad. But every day people inspire me with the small acts that make me glad I am human. Your perspective of Guru Dev reminds me of my relationship with some of my guitar heroes. Specifically because all of them were legendary practicers of their craft. Jimi Hendrix used to fry eggs with a guitar on according to his girlfriend. What made them special was not the overrated talent, but a maniacal focus on improving. It takes a certain personality to be so one pointed for any goal. It also takes a heap of selfishness and caused pain to the people around them. But for the rest of us living more balanced lives, it is inspirational to hear about someone going balls out in any field. So I don't really want to be Jimi, and I certainly don't want any part of the rest of his life, but sometimes when my fingers hurt practicing a new song again and again like a blues addled Rainman, I think of Jimi and Stevie Ray and press on. Greatness comes from a willingness to go too far, practice too much, and go beyond what is considered normal. It really doesn't matter for their inspirational value whether their focus was the result of a dysfunctional, imbalanced personality. It still has a value in pointing the way to where the good stuff lies. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: As always I am glad you weighed in Marek! I agree with what you said up to a point. Certainly Guru Dev had such beliefs and may have viewed his own experiences as proof of miracles. Since I am not inclined to believe in River Goddesses giving monetary boons to people, I still think there was some monkey business surrounding this claim. It is either objectively true or not and he knew which it was. Yogananda with his movie star disciples is in the same Hindu televangelist camp as MMY in my book. He was huckstering spirituality in the West for cash. I have some pious Indian friends from Gujarat. Their view of guys like MMY matches my own. I think there is a legitimate distinction in most cultures between the guys marketing spirituality with stories of magical powers, and the more traditional conservative view. It believe that this distinction is important to religious people the world over. I used to put Guru Dev in a different category from MMY in this regard. Now I am not so sure. I get that my point means nothing to people who are inclined to take Yoganandas claims of miracles as factually true and the same for Guru Dev's miracles. My view may only have importance in how I am constructing distinctions between different types of religious people. It is a work in progress. So far I think that people making claims of miracles to gain spiritual credibility are more suspect than those who do not. It reflects the boundaries of my own thinking based on seeing too many people claim stuff that just isn't true. I am opened to any demonstration of miracles that includes professional magicians. I would love to have seen some of the stuff Turq reports. But since I have not, I am still skeptical till I see something substantial. So with that starting point when I see a claim of miracles my antenna go up. I am not inclined to believe that living alone for a long time gave Guru Dev super powers. If he is claiming to have seen Krishna like Yogananda did, I figure, so have I under long meditation influence. But if he claims to have a box that gives cash, I view this claim differently. It is another class of delusion or con. Once the claim reaches an objective level, it gets the same treatment for me that any physical claim gets. All subjective experiences are given a total pass from me because I know how compelling they can be. As I said, work in progress! This topic can be used in so many ways. It is a way to explore where we are drawing our different lines. I need to dig up my Whole Thing Real Thing book. I bought one from Dr. Varma years ago. **snip to end** Curtis, I totally agree that the real discussion between us on this subject is just where we draw the lines in our understanding and belief of who these guys are and what they stand for. And like you, and for some time, I have distinguished in my mind Maharishi from Guru Dev precisely because I felt that Guru Dev lived a life consciously chosen to be (and apparently successfully
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Snark is condescension after two bong hits and a half bag of Oreos. The irony of the rest is too perfect to touch. I enjoy our discussions up to the point that you use it as a tool to criticize me personally, or my style of thinking, instead of talking about the subject. I think we are looking for very different things from our exchanges. I'd be a lot less inclined to criticize your style of thinking if you didn't make such a big deal of the importance of thinking clearly and rigorously, while mocking those whose thinking you feel is muddled and holding up people like Sam Harris as some kind of ideal--and then coming out with something as antithetical to those pronouncements as your Guru Dev/MMY fantasies, in which you construct elaborate fictional narratives around a few bits of fact while ignoring a host of other facts, just so you can come up with a scenario that fits your predtermined conclusions. Your thinking along these lines is also marred by anachronism and ethnocentrism; you have a great deal of difficulty putting yourself in the shoes of people who lived at a different time and in a different place and culture. What I *sense* is that you're driven to find conclusions about the whole TM thing that justify your rejection of it. But you make just as many mental leaps as you did in order to buy into TM and MMY and Guru Dev in the first place. I don't believe your style of thinking has changed at all; rather, you're using that same style of thinking to arrive at a different point. It's as if you look at your earlier conclusions, ask yourself what the opposite of those conclusions would be, and then do whatever mental acrobatics you must to hop, skip, and jump your way to those opposite conclusions. I'm not suggesting your instincts about getting out of TM didn't have a solid basis. But I've *always* thought your rationalizations of why you did so were fishy, entirely disconnected from the real reasons, maybe even subconsciously designed to *avoid* looking at the real reasons. You've had three people now bust holes in your fantasies about Guru Dev and MMY, two of them on the basis of firsthand knowledge. Can you not come up with a mental construct that incorporates what Marek and trinity have told you without also busting holes in your decision to quit TM? Does that decision hinge on Guru Dev not being who he was said to be and on MMY having lied about Guru Dev for the sake of his own self-importance? If Guru Dev was a real spiritual luminary, and if MMY was entirely sincere in promoting him with no ulterior motives, does that make your decision to leave somehow a mistake? It's as if you don't trust your instincts to leave TM and have to build this quasi-rational structure to support them. The problem is that it isn't anywhere near as rational as you think it is. Bottom line, what I'm suggesting is that you don't *need* to rationalize your instincts. But the way you go about the attempt to rationalize them has forced you into a very unhelpful and potentially counterproductive way of looking at the world.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Great post; thanks for posting this ! In my time in the Movement I have seen so many things out of the ordinary that it could fill a book. I also know a lady who swears sh e saw Maharishi not walking up the stair but gliding in the air. The Blad brothers also capured at least 1 such incident on tape, long before Maharishi introduced the Sidhis. When his blue, english limosine finally caved in, the back seat was taken to MERY Press where people had waitinglist for meditating in it. Apparently the meditations on that seat was extraordinary powerful. The list of extraordinary happenings with Maharishi is very long indeed. But I can see why he does not make it public for anyone to see; it would create a wrong focus, away from his teaching, it would turn him into some kind a sircus artist. Also I think those who have an intuition, and think perhaps they know the greatness of this Saint do not need such proofs. And those who are not interested would not belive what they saw anyway, so why bother ? More West than East. I think the ratioanlist movement hit the west harder than India (you have never been there I guess). In India if you believe in God, you pretty much believe in miracles. If you don't believe in divine intervention (which is sort of always outside of the scientific paradigma), what's the point? Any great saint will be judged according to if he can perform miracles. Look at Shirdi Sai Baba, the greatest and best known of all the Gurus's. His spiritual career started with a miracle (he transformed water inro oil). No temple, where not miracles are attributed to. So if you talk about 'mainstream religious types', you must be talking about the ones you know - that is in the west, maybe in TV - certainly not in rural India. Each time I come to India I hear stories of mirales. I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this time. Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Judy, It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. It leaks into every discussion. No one has blown holes in anything. We are all offering our own point of view. Your insistence that yours is the superior one is what turns this into an unpleasant discussion. Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. It is your need to feel superior that is your social downfall Judy. You just can't communicate with people who disagree with you as an equal. So you go after them personally if you can't win your argument. My discussion with Marek has a completely different tone because we are talking like equals with mutual respect. We can disagree without going into a digression about each other's thinking. I believe that he understand my points and I try to understand his. I know this will all fall on deaf ears, but many people have been trying to convey this to you on this group since I have been here. Attacking people personally from a superior position is boring and unpleasant. The people I respect in this group reveal their humanity with kindness. There is no good reason or rationalization for making it into a personal putdown. You are not superior to anyone here. Your self delusion that you are a superior thinker turns every discussion into this one. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Snark is condescension after two bong hits and a half bag of Oreos. The irony of the rest is too perfect to touch. I enjoy our discussions up to the point that you use it as a tool to criticize me personally, or my style of thinking, instead of talking about the subject. I think we are looking for very different things from our exchanges. I'd be a lot less inclined to criticize your style of thinking if you didn't make such a big deal of the importance of thinking clearly and rigorously, while mocking those whose thinking you feel is muddled and holding up people like Sam Harris as some kind of ideal--and then coming out with something as antithetical to those pronouncements as your Guru Dev/MMY fantasies, in which you construct elaborate fictional narratives around a few bits of fact while ignoring a host of other facts, just so you can come up with a scenario that fits your predtermined conclusions. Your thinking along these lines is also marred by anachronism and ethnocentrism; you have a great deal of difficulty putting yourself in the shoes of people who lived at a different time and in a different place and culture. What I *sense* is that you're driven to find conclusions about the whole TM thing that justify your rejection of it. But you make just as many mental leaps as you did in order to buy into TM and MMY and Guru Dev in the first place. I don't believe your style of thinking has changed at all; rather, you're using that same style of thinking to arrive at a different point. It's as if you look at your earlier conclusions, ask yourself what the opposite of those conclusions would be, and then do whatever mental acrobatics you must to hop, skip, and jump your way to those opposite conclusions. I'm not suggesting your instincts about getting out of TM didn't have a solid basis. But I've *always* thought your rationalizations of why you did so were fishy, entirely disconnected from the real reasons, maybe even subconsciously designed to *avoid* looking at the real reasons. You've had three people now bust holes in your fantasies about Guru Dev and MMY, two of them on the basis of firsthand knowledge. Can you not come up with a mental construct that incorporates what Marek and trinity have told you without also busting holes in your decision to quit TM? Does that decision hinge on Guru Dev not being who he was said to be and on MMY having lied about Guru Dev for the sake of his own self-importance? If Guru Dev was a real spiritual luminary, and if MMY was entirely sincere in promoting him with no ulterior motives, does that make your decision to leave somehow a mistake? It's as if you don't trust your instincts to leave TM and have to build this quasi-rational structure to support them. The problem is that it isn't anywhere near as rational as you think it is. Bottom line, what I'm suggesting is that you don't *need* to rationalize your instincts. But the way you go about the attempt to rationalize them has forced you into a very unhelpful and potentially
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great post; thanks for posting this ! In my time in the Movement I have seen so many things out of the ordinary that it could fill a book. I also know a lady who swears sh e saw Maharishi not walking up the stair but gliding in the air. The Blad brothers also capured at least 1 such incident on tape, long before Maharishi introduced the Sidhis. When his blue, english limosine finally caved in, the back seat was taken to MERY Press where people had waitinglist for meditating in it. Apparently the meditations on that seat was extraordinary powerful. The list of extraordinary happenings with Maharishi is very long indeed. But I can see why he does not make it public for anyone to see; it would create a wrong focus, away from his teaching, it would turn him into some kind a sircus artist. Also I think those who have an intuition, and think perhaps they know the greatness of this Saint do not need such proofs. And those who are not interested would not belive what they saw anyway, so why bother ? As was posted here awhile back, MMY originally marketed the sidhis very aggressively with ads promising supernormal powers and the like, with faked photos of flying and sidhaman cartoons, etc., and later promoted yogic flying olympics with the press invited. If anyone in the movement could actually do impressive sidhis or miracles, you bet the TMO would be promoting the heck out of it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
You've fallen into the Barry-Judy trap. You're starting to sound like Barry AND Judy, the reason that this forum is now being moderated with a posting limit. All you really have to do is just shut your pie hole and take a drive to a local flea market. Obviously some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to. You could really sum up your argument by just repeating Barry's phrase: Yo Moma! Curtis wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. Judy wrote: Bottom line, what I'm suggesting is that you don't *need* to rationalize your instincts. But the way you go about the attempt to rationalize them has forced you into a very unhelpful and potentially counterproductive way of looking at the world.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
just shut your pie hole Nice one. Now I understand how to have a civil discussion. That was 5, over and out. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've fallen into the Barry-Judy trap. You're starting to sound like Barry AND Judy, the reason that this forum is now being moderated with a posting limit. All you really have to do is just shut your pie hole and take a drive to a local flea market. Obviously some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to. You could really sum up your argument by just repeating Barry's phrase: Yo Moma! Curtis wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. Judy wrote: Bottom line, what I'm suggesting is that you don't *need* to rationalize your instincts. But the way you go about the attempt to rationalize them has forced you into a very unhelpful and potentially counterproductive way of looking at the world.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, boo_lives [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: Great post; thanks for posting this ! In my time in the Movement I have seen so many things out of the ordinary that it could fill a book. I also know a lady who swears sh e saw Maharishi not walking up the stair but gliding in the air. The Blad brothers also capured at least 1 such incident on tape, long before Maharishi introduced the Sidhis. When his blue, english limosine finally caved in, the back seat was taken to MERY Press where people had waitinglist for meditating in it. Apparently the meditations on that seat was extraordinary powerful. The list of extraordinary happenings with Maharishi is very long indeed. But I can see why he does not make it public for anyone to see; it would create a wrong focus, away from his teaching, it would turn him into some kind a sircus artist. Also I think those who have an intuition, and think perhaps they know the greatness of this Saint do not need such proofs. And those who are not interested would not belive what they saw anyway, so why bother ? As was posted here awhile back, MMY originally marketed the sidhis very aggressively with ads promising supernormal powers and the like, with faked photos of flying and sidhaman cartoons, etc., and later promoted yogic flying olympics with the press invited. If anyone in the movement could actually do impressive sidhis or miracles, you bet the TMO would be promoting the heck out of it. Certainly. But the Captain would, and should not do it. It will happen in due time. On a boatride on the Rhine river on Buddhayajanti, May 1982, Maharishi gently said to a visiting Pundit; Buddha is said to have created 500 enlightened people. I think we will do better. So do not worry; sooner, rather than later, people in the Movement will float. Now, what faked photos are you reffering to ? If a photographer hits the click button on, lets say at 1000/th of a second; would a car in motion appear to be standing still ?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy, It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. Oh, nonsense. Do you really believe other people aren't able to see things about you that you yourself cannot? snip Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. That's nuts, Curtis. It only comes up when we're talking about TM. And it has evolved significantly, but you haven't noticed. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You obviously didn't bother reading what I wrote. Look again. I said *explicitly* that I wasn't criticizing the decision, I was criticizing your after-the-fact rationalizations of that decision. I think they're boxing you into a pattern of thinking that is very limiting generally. You talked awhile back about having lunch with someone who you said was questioning you to find out whether you had kept closed some doors she thought you should have left open. I see you prowling around behind those closed doors, trying to peek through the cracks, having the impulse to expand beyond them, but not being willing to let go of the thinking that keeps them tightly shut. I'd like to see you fulfill that potential for expansion on your own terms. I just think you're getting in your own way. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. Not putting you down for leaving. Read what I wrote again. In fact, it's none of my damn business, or anybody else's, why you left. But of course I'm interested. It's just that when you do give explanations, I don't find them at all convincing. I don't need to know, although I'm curious. But I don't think *you* know why you left; and I think your rationalizations keep you from finding out. If I have an agenda, it's to get you to think a little more deeply about it. It is your need to feel superior that is your social downfall Judy. That's just a thought-stopper, Curtis. I have no such need--or no greater than anybody else's, including yours. You just can't communicate with people who disagree with you as an equal. Curtis, if that's what you get from the way I disagree with you, I'd have to suggest it's your projection. It never occurs to me to think that somebody I'm disagreeing with isn't my equal. That's just a silly notion. If I thought that, I wouldn't be taking the time. So you go after them personally if you can't win your argument. Gee, I thought I *had* won that one, actually. My discussion with Marek has a completely different tone because we are talking like equals with mutual respect. We can disagree without going into a digression about each other's thinking. I believe that he understand my points and I try to understand his. I know this will all fall on deaf ears, but many people have been trying to convey this to you on this group since I have been here. Attacking people personally from a superior position is boring and unpleasant. The people I respect in this group reveal their humanity with kindness. There is no good reason or rationalization for making it into a personal putdown. You are not superior to anyone here. Your self delusion that you are a superior thinker turns every discussion into this one. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Snark is condescension after two bong hits and a half bag of Oreos. The irony of the rest is too perfect to touch. I enjoy our discussions up to the point that you use it as a tool to criticize me personally, or my style of thinking, instead of talking about the subject. I think we are looking for very different things from our exchanges. I'd be a lot less inclined to criticize your style of thinking if you didn't make such a big deal of the importance of thinking clearly and rigorously, while mocking those whose thinking you feel is muddled and holding up people like Sam Harris as some kind of ideal--and then coming out with something as antithetical to those pronouncements as your Guru Dev/MMY fantasies, in which you construct elaborate fictional narratives around a few bits of fact while ignoring a host of other facts, just so you can come up with a scenario that fits your predtermined conclusions. Your thinking along these lines is also marred by anachronism and ethnocentrism; you have a great deal of difficulty putting yourself in the shoes of people who lived at a different time and in a different place and culture. What I *sense* is that you're driven to find
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Lots of stories like this about MMY, and many that have nothing to do with coincidence or synchronicity (bilocation, among other things); Charlie Lutes was apparently fond of telling these. A friend of mine swore he had instantly cured her of a bad cold. And a friend of hers reported that she'd snuck out of a lecture MMY was giving and gone for a walk, musing about whether MMY was really enlightened, when she saw him coming down the path toward her dressed in loud plaid Bermuda shorts, grinning at her. This is hilarious ! Please share with us if you have more of this kind of material. For many, many reasons, I belive this to be a genuine experience. Maitreya also does this all the time, appearing to people in all kinds of costumes, sexes (well, 2) and ages :-) Interested souls can take at look at: http://www.shareintl.org
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
On Mar 31, 2007, at 11:40 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: It is your underlying arrogant assumption that you know me better than I know myself that makes you such a bore. It leaks into every discussion. No one has blown holes in anything. We are all offering our own point of view. Your insistence that yours is the superior one is what turns this into an unpleasant discussion. Your repetition of the same Dr. Phil talk that you have given me many times over the years reveals your agenda in every discussion no matter what the topic. Somehow you need to criticize my decision to leave the movement. You have tried so many angles over the years. But none of them have anything to do with me. You have never had a sincere interest to understand why I left, just a need to put me down for it. Well said, which probably makes a lot of us wonder why you bother in the first place.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you go after them personally if you can't win your argument. Gee, I thought I *had* won that one, actually. Of course you think that Judith. That's 4 for you today by the way. Let's get the last one over with quickly OK?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me, I don't know why he took himself out. I wrote down some of my theories about it in a story (http://ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/rtm53.html), and the bottom line of that story (written now almost ten years ago) is the same bottom line I have now -- I don't know. I now read it, thanks for sharing. What a long, strange trip it was. And I'm thank- ful for every minute of it, positive or negative. But strange it definitely was. There are very few people who really influence us in our lives. People who have touched our hearts and minds. They may have their weakness, they may have, what others consider to be 'fallen'. I don't have such judgment values. What you can see is, I am sure you do, what effect they had on our lives, how much we learned from them, and that is what I think that counts. There won't be that many for each of us, maybe just one or two. For example: some people here (not you) make a big story about the sexual (mis-)conduct of Maharishi. I remember something Shivananda wrote in this context, it amounts to the following: Somebody, who has fallen from his vows, at least had a determination and a desire which made him do these vows, while most people even don't consider such a life. For example Maharishi has established monastic groups, which allowed me to lead such a life, for which I will be always grateful. The experience I had, nobody can take away from me. Maybe he himself failed in that respect (or he simply explored experiences he needed to have), but he had imbibed in me the desire and lifestyle of Brahmacharya. Thats just an example, but I think thats more what counts. If Maharishi was a perfect Brahmacharya, sitting in a cave in Uttar Kashi, I would have never heard of him (or Guru Dev) and he wouldn't have inspired me. Which scenario do I prefer? The one that happened. If people make a fuss about such things, they cling to some ideal they have in their mind, and they haven't learned themselves. Why does one need to get inspired? Inspire others. In your own way and to your capacity.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **snip** There are very few people who really influence us in our lives. People who have touched our hearts and minds. They may have their weakness, they may have, what others consider to be 'fallen'. I don't have such judgment values. What you can see is, I am sure you do, what effect they had on our lives, how much we learned from them, and that is what I think that counts. There won't be that many for each of us, maybe just one or two. For example: some people here (not you) make a big story about the sexual (mis-)conduct of Maharishi. I remember something Shivananda wrote in this context, it amounts to the following: Somebody, who has fallen from his vows, at least had a determination and a desire which made him do these vows, while most people even don't consider such a life. For example Maharishi has established monastic groups, which allowed me to lead such a life, for which I will be always grateful. The experience I had, nobody can take away from me. Maybe he himself failed in that respect (or he simply explored experiences he needed to have), but he had imbibed in me the desire and lifestyle of Brahmacharya. Thats just an example, but I think thats more what counts. If Maharishi was a perfect Brahmacharya, sitting in a cave in Uttar Kashi, I would have never heard of him (or Guru Dev) and he wouldn't have inspired me. Which scenario do I prefer? The one that happened. If people make a fuss about such things, they cling to some ideal they have in their mind, and they haven't learned themselves. Why does one need to get inspired? Inspire others. In your own way and to your capacity. **end** What a great post, thank you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example: some people here (not you) make a big story about the sexual (mis-)conduct of Maharishi. snip For example Maharishi has established monastic groups, which allowed me to lead such a life, for which I will be always grateful.If Maharishi was a perfect Brahmacharya, sitting in a cave in Uttar Kashi, I would have never heard of him (or Guru Dev) and he wouldn't have inspired me. Which scenario do I prefer? The one that happened. If people make a fuss about such things, they cling to some ideal they have in their mind, and they haven't learned themselves. Why does one need to get inspired? Inspire others. In your own way and to your capacity. The Trinster making his debut with some good K. For Trin, he dropped the Y, and found his G. lurk
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
This section was reversed by speaker name, sorry! It should read: Judy:I wouldn't doubt it, but isn't that a bit of a self-selected sample? How likely is it that Indians who took such claims for granted would be those you would make friends with in the first place? Me: They are self-selected because the most pious Indians won't leave the country. My point was that their culture makes the same distinctions we do concerning televangelists and serious spiritual people. Claiming miracles is an indication of slippery intent in both cultures. I have plenty of religious and spiritually minded friends who still view making claims of miracles as a televangelist trick to bamboozle naive people. I don't sort friends by beliefs but by behavior. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just in case you are not already sick of this topic... I think I understand your point of view. Sounds reasonable. I also understand that you don't find my take on it reasonable. Fair enough. It was my reaction to the wording of MMY's announcement about Guru Dev that changed my view of him from stodgy old time religion guy to more of a self promoter using miracles as a hook. But our discussion has definitely bought out a need to find out what specific miracles MMY claimed for GD. In any case I have addressed some points you felt I had missed. FWIW. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip As an aside, the tradition of the day was to deliver a kid to an adult teacher to take care of him. Letting him walk off was just as much an aberration of parental responsibility as it is today. Judy If there was anything they could have done about it, that is. If they'd handed him over to a teacher, and the kid didn't find him congenial, he'd most likely have walked away from the teacher. ME Buz ! Sorry, the correct parenting answer was to take care of your underage child. No one gets off the hook by claiming that kids can walk away. Good parents don't let them, no exceptions. Rich ones get even less slack. They could have hired a shadow person to follow GD around everywhere for about 2 cents a day. snip [I wrote:] MMY, as I said, didn't imply any particular miracle in that particular piece. In the other piece you just quoted, he made a general pro forma reference, pretty much de rigeur for a realized Indian master. When you hear someone introduce a candidate for office as The next president of the United States, and the candidate then loses the election, do you then say to yourself, That scoundrel who introduced the candidate before the election was lying? I'm not sure where you got the idea about how realized people get introduced, ever been to India? Judy; No, but I've read plenty of testimonials about purportedly realized teachers. ME; I am not challenging your familiarity with spiritual people, just how they get introduced. You are claiming that it was common to mention a teacher's siddhis in his intro. I maintain that only crass teachers would use it. It is hokey spirituality. Ever seen another supposedly realized guy get introduced? This is a made up perspective. It is just as likely that mentioning Sidhis is just as tacky for religious people in India as here. Remember he was representing a high formal office. Judy: I should think that would make claims for siddhis-- especially such siddhis as omniscience--even more appropriate. My Indian friends here view sidhis claims as ludicrously as we view the healing claims of televangelists. ME: I wouldn't doubt it, but isn't that a bit of a self-selected sample? How likely is it that Indians who took such claims for granted would be those you would make friends with in the first place? Judy: They are self-selected because the most pious Indians won't leave the country. My point was that their culture makes the same distinctions we do concerning televangelists and serious spiritual people. Claiming miracles is an indication of slippery intent in both cultures. I have plenty of religious and spiritually minded friends who still view making claims of miracles as a televangelist trick to bamboozle naive people. I don't sort friends by beliefs but by behavior. Also, this promotion of Guru Dev took place decades earlier than your sojourns in India, not that long after India won its independence from the British. It's not impossible that modern skepticism about such things was a lot less common back then. ME: Very possible. The closer example would be Benny Hin's claims of curing cancer being met with the appropriate skepticism. Claiming unproven miracles to market spirituality is crass and deserves to be ridiculed. That may be, but the issue here is whether MMY actually made such claims, as opposed to a pro forma statement, as I said, about unspecified
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Curtis, without snipping any of your post (below) or spending a whole lot more time or words on the subject, it seems pretty clear that Guru Dev, himself, believed in siddhis and miracles, as is obvious from Paul Mason's site with quotes from him exactly on that subject, as well as the bios of him which are allegedly based on stories he told himself. In The Whole Thing, The Real Thing he claims his guru, Swamiji Krishnanad, raised a boy from the dead and there's also the story of the Aghori Mahatma who put on the spectacular diorama of the divinities (as well as a deluge of blood and bones) for Guru Dev's benefit while Guru Dev was doing sadhana in some jungle somewhere. And the Indian teachers and gurus I've read (Yogananda immediately comes to mind), all presume the miraculous as being part and parcel of enlightened life. So it doesn't seem odd or particularly perfidious on Brahmachari Mahesh's part to make such claims about Guru Dev, whether or not Guru Dev himself claimed to possess them. Basically, the belief in siddhis are part of the Indian culture and as such, even a person of integrity and prudence, steeped in that culture, would accept as true the reality of miracles that have no empirical proof to substantiate them. It's just a way of looking at the world. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just in case you are not already sick of this topic... I think I understand your point of view. Sounds reasonable. I also understand that you don't find my take on it reasonable. Fair enough. It was my reaction to the wording of MMY's announcement about Guru Dev that changed my view of him from stodgy old time religion guy to more of a self promoter using miracles as a hook. But our discussion has definitely bought out a need to find out what specific miracles MMY claimed for GD. In any case I have addressed some points you felt I had missed. FWIW. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip As an aside, the tradition of the day was to deliver a kid to an adult teacher to take care of him. Letting him walk off was just as much an aberration of parental responsibility as it is today. Judy If there was anything they could have done about it, that is. If they'd handed him over to a teacher, and the kid didn't find him congenial, he'd most likely have walked away from the teacher. ME Buz ! Sorry, the correct parenting answer was to take care of your underage child. No one gets off the hook by claiming that kids can walk away. Good parents don't let them, no exceptions. Rich ones get even less slack. They could have hired a shadow person to follow GD around everywhere for about 2 cents a day. snip [I wrote:] MMY, as I said, didn't imply any particular miracle in that particular piece. In the other piece you just quoted, he made a general pro forma reference, pretty much de rigeur for a realized Indian master. When you hear someone introduce a candidate for office as The next president of the United States, and the candidate then loses the election, do you then say to yourself, That scoundrel who introduced the candidate before the election was lying? I'm not sure where you got the idea about how realized people get introduced, ever been to India? Judy; No, but I've read plenty of testimonials about purportedly realized teachers. ME; I am not challenging your familiarity with spiritual people, just how they get introduced. You are claiming that it was common to mention a teacher's siddhis in his intro. I maintain that only crass teachers would use it. It is hokey spirituality. Ever seen another supposedly realized guy get introduced? This is a made up perspective. It is just as likely that mentioning Sidhis is just as tacky for religious people in India as here. Remember he was representing a high formal office. Judy: I should think that would make claims for siddhis-- especially such siddhis as omniscience--even more appropriate. My Indian friends here view sidhis claims as ludicrously as we view the healing claims of televangelists. ME: I wouldn't doubt it, but isn't that a bit of a self-selected sample? How likely is it that Indians who took such claims for granted would be those you would make friends with in the first place? Judy: They are self-selected because the most pious Indians won't leave the country. My point was that their culture makes the same distinctions we do concerning televangelists and serious spiritual people. Claiming miracles is an indication of slippery intent in both cultures. I have plenty of religious and spiritually minded friends who still view making claims of miracles as a televangelist trick to bamboozle naive people. I don't sort friends by beliefs but by behavior. Also, this promotion of Guru Dev took place
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
As always I am glad you weighed in Marek! I agree with what you said up to a point. Certainly Guru Dev had such beliefs and may have viewed his own experiences as proof of miracles. Since I am not inclined to believe in River Goddesses giving monetary boons to people, I still think there was some monkey business surrounding this claim. It is either objectively true or not and he knew which it was. Yogananda with his movie star disciples is in the same Hindu televangelist camp as MMY in my book. He was huckstering spirituality in the West for cash. I have some pious Indian friends from Gujarat. Their view of guys like MMY matches my own. I think there is a legitimate distinction in most cultures between the guys marketing spirituality with stories of magical powers, and the more traditional conservative view. It believe that this distinction is important to religious people the world over. I used to put Guru Dev in a different category from MMY in this regard. Now I am not so sure. I get that my point means nothing to people who are inclined to take Yoganandas claims of miracles as factually true and the same for Guru Dev's miracles. My view may only have importance in how I am constructing distinctions between different types of religious people. It is a work in progress. So far I think that people making claims of miracles to gain spiritual credibility are more suspect than those who do not. It reflects the boundaries of my own thinking based on seeing too many people claim stuff that just isn't true. I am opened to any demonstration of miracles that includes professional magicians. I would love to have seen some of the stuff Turq reports. But since I have not, I am still skeptical till I see something substantial. So with that starting point when I see a claim of miracles my antenna go up. I am not inclined to believe that living alone for a long time gave Guru Dev super powers. If he is claiming to have seen Krishna like Yogananda did, I figure, so have I under long meditation influence. But if he claims to have a box that gives cash, I view this claim differently. It is another class of delusion or con. Once the claim reaches an objective level, it gets the same treatment for me that any physical claim gets. All subjective experiences are given a total pass from me because I know how compelling they can be. As I said, work in progress! This topic can be used in so many ways. It is a way to explore where we are drawing our different lines. I need to dig up my Whole Thing Real Thing book. I bought one from Dr. Varma years ago. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis, without snipping any of your post (below) or spending a whole lot more time or words on the subject, it seems pretty clear that Guru Dev, himself, believed in siddhis and miracles, as is obvious from Paul Mason's site with quotes from him exactly on that subject, as well as the bios of him which are allegedly based on stories he told himself. In The Whole Thing, The Real Thing he claims his guru, Swamiji Krishnanad, raised a boy from the dead and there's also the story of the Aghori Mahatma who put on the spectacular diorama of the divinities (as well as a deluge of blood and bones) for Guru Dev's benefit while Guru Dev was doing sadhana in some jungle somewhere. And the Indian teachers and gurus I've read (Yogananda immediately comes to mind), all presume the miraculous as being part and parcel of enlightened life. So it doesn't seem odd or particularly perfidious on Brahmachari Mahesh's part to make such claims about Guru Dev, whether or not Guru Dev himself claimed to possess them. Basically, the belief in siddhis are part of the Indian culture and as such, even a person of integrity and prudence, steeped in that culture, would accept as true the reality of miracles that have no empirical proof to substantiate them. It's just a way of looking at the world. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: Just in case you are not already sick of this topic... I think I understand your point of view. Sounds reasonable. I also understand that you don't find my take on it reasonable. Fair enough. It was my reaction to the wording of MMY's announcement about Guru Dev that changed my view of him from stodgy old time religion guy to more of a self promoter using miracles as a hook. But our discussion has definitely bought out a need to find out what specific miracles MMY claimed for GD. In any case I have addressed some points you felt I had missed. FWIW. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip As an aside, the tradition of the day was to deliver a kid to an adult teacher to take care of him. Letting him walk off was just as much an aberration of parental responsibility as
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Curtis, Marek has made my points more authoritatively and far more succinctly than I've been able to do, so I'll bow out, except for this: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Your thinking is so very rigid when it suits your purposes, and so very flexible when that works better for you. Agreed. It has taken me years of self development to achieve this. Judy: And you're *proud* of insisting on the evidence when it confirms your beliefs and ignoring it when it doesn't?? Me: I don't see how trying to characterize my thinking process in a negative way advances our discussion Judy. I am not soliciting your help in my general thinking style. You weren't soliciting my help in understanding Guru Dev and MMY either. Why would you be soliciting help anyway if you aren't aware you need it? Just think of it as a random act of kindness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Condescension is not kindness. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Curtis, Marek has made my points more authoritatively and far more succinctly than I've been able to do, so I'll bow out, except for this: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Your thinking is so very rigid when it suits your purposes, and so very flexible when that works better for you. Agreed. It has taken me years of self development to achieve this. Judy: And you're *proud* of insisting on the evidence when it confirms your beliefs and ignoring it when it doesn't?? Me: I don't see how trying to characterize my thinking process in a negative way advances our discussion Judy. I am not soliciting your help in my general thinking style. You weren't soliciting my help in understanding Guru Dev and MMY either. Why would you be soliciting help anyway if you aren't aware you need it? Just think of it as a random act of kindness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As always I am glad you weighed in Marek! I agree with what you said up to a point. Certainly Guru Dev had such beliefs and may have viewed his own experiences as proof of miracles. Since I am not inclined to believe in River Goddesses giving monetary boons to people, I still think there was some monkey business surrounding this claim. It is either objectively true or not and he knew which it was. Yogananda with his movie star disciples is in the same Hindu televangelist camp as MMY in my book. He was huckstering spirituality in the West for cash. I have some pious Indian friends from Gujarat. Their view of guys like MMY matches my own. I think there is a legitimate distinction in most cultures between the guys marketing spirituality with stories of magical powers, and the more traditional conservative view. It believe that this distinction is important to religious people the world over. I used to put Guru Dev in a different category from MMY in this regard. Now I am not so sure. I get that my point means nothing to people who are inclined to take Yoganandas claims of miracles as factually true and the same for Guru Dev's miracles. My view may only have importance in how I am constructing distinctions between different types of religious people. It is a work in progress. So far I think that people making claims of miracles to gain spiritual credibility are more suspect than those who do not. It reflects the boundaries of my own thinking based on seeing too many people claim stuff that just isn't true. I am opened to any demonstration of miracles that includes professional magicians. I would love to have seen some of the stuff Turq reports. But since I have not, I am still skeptical till I see something substantial. So with that starting point when I see a claim of miracles my antenna go up. I am not inclined to believe that living alone for a long time gave Guru Dev super powers. If he is claiming to have seen Krishna like Yogananda did, I figure, so have I under long meditation influence. But if he claims to have a box that gives cash, I view this claim differently. It is another class of delusion or con. Once the claim reaches an objective level, it gets the same treatment for me that any physical claim gets. All subjective experiences are given a total pass from me because I know how compelling they can be. As I said, work in progress! This topic can be used in so many ways. It is a way to explore where we are drawing our different lines. I need to dig up my Whole Thing Real Thing book. I bought one from Dr. Varma years ago. **snip to end** Curtis, I totally agree that the real discussion between us on this subject is just where we draw the lines in our understanding and belief of who these guys are and what they stand for. And like you, and for some time, I have distinguished in my mind Maharishi from Guru Dev precisely because I felt that Guru Dev lived a life consciously chosen to be (and apparently successfully lived) separate from the distractions and temptations that may have affected Maharishi's life decisions. Bottom line for me, however, is that there is something in the life of Guru Dev, as and to the degree I know it, that inspires me. In the video of the French Tibetan monk, when he comments near the beginning of his talk about when he first went to the Himalayas and met the Buddhist monks, he found that he didn't just want to learn what they knew, he wanted to *be* the way they were. He recognized some quality of consciousness in them that he wanted as well. When I first met Maharishi that's exactly what I felt. Whatever it was that he had, I wanted That, too. I wanted to *be* That. And besides that, I wanted to be a good man, a good person, a person of compassion and virtue. Nothing of what I have subsequently heard or read of Maharishi's possible failings as a man or a teacher have convinced me that he is not awake in pure consciousness, Awake in Brahman. However, he just isn't a role model for the other relative personal virtues that I esteem. But, based on everything I have heard or read about Guru Dev, I feel that his character and personality are totally worthy of emulation, reverence and respect. To me he is a Buddha and I revere him as such. Would it come to light, however, that he had personal failures as a human being that I have no inkling of now, of course I would be disappointed (just as I have been disappointed with some of Maharishi's personal characteristics), but the ideal, which to me he represents, would still be alive in me as an ideal to pursue and strive for. Guru Dev is a representation, in my consciousness, of exactly what I feel he should be, and as such, is perfect. Perfect Being, perfect being.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Condescension is not kindness. That wasn't condescension, it was snark. In response to pomposity. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Curtis, Marek has made my points more authoritatively and far more succinctly than I've been able to do, so I'll bow out, except for this: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip Your thinking is so very rigid when it suits your purposes, and so very flexible when that works better for you. Agreed. It has taken me years of self development to achieve this. Judy: And you're *proud* of insisting on the evidence when it confirms your beliefs and ignoring it when it doesn't?? Me: I don't see how trying to characterize my thinking process in a negative way advances our discussion Judy. I am not soliciting your help in my general thinking style. You weren't soliciting my help in understanding Guru Dev and MMY either. Why would you be soliciting help anyway if you aren't aware you need it? Just think of it as a random act of kindness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Marek Reavis wrote: But, based on everything I have heard or read about Guru Dev, I feel that his character and personality are totally worthy of emulation, reverence and respect. From what I've read, Rajaram Mishra fully supported the Indian varnashramadharma system. That's why he didn't include Mr. Varma on the list of worthy successors in his will. Mahesh was of the Sudra caste from a family of scribes, and thus not eligible for the title of sannyasin. It may be that Rajaram was am arch conservative as well - not a single woman was included in his will either. Which is odd, since he supposedly worshipped the Goddess Saraswati. I wouldn't be surprised if Guru Dev fully supported the conservative party in Indian politics as well. Apparently Mr. Mishra was addicted to betel leaves and enjoyed a good chew after every meal. So, how are you going to emulate these qualities, not to mention the idea of total celibacy and skipping the whole stage of a householder? I mean, it's great to respect holy men, but emulation of them is not for this age. I once read a story about Ramakrishna that related how he refused to sleep with his own wife. Go figure. Yes, I like Brahmananda, Maharishi and Yogananda, and lots of other teachers too, but it's probably counterproductive for anyone on the spiritual path to indulge in a cult of personality and insinuate that their teacher is divinity itself and thus try to emulate their behavior. MMY is a case in point - so is Trungpa or Fredrick Lentz. One drank hisself to death and the other killed hisself with a dog collar around his neck. Be your own Guru.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Ccurtis wrote: So far I think that people making claims of miracles to gain spiritual credibility are more suspect than those who do not. Well, it would be pretty difficult to find a spiritual person who didn't believe in spirits, ergo, a miracle, since every materialist knows that there are no spirits - only claims. But, are you saying that there are spiritual materialists who make no claims of miracles or spirits? That would be a contradiction in terms, would it not?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Discussion with Judy about Guru Dev and MMY's intro letter continues
Richard, I was thinking that mainstream religious types don't talk about miracles much. They talk about love. They feel uncomfortable with people who claim miracles. So they might be spiritual and believe in God, but not buy that some preacher can heal cancer by shouting at you. I think this is the majority of religious Americans. By the time you figure out how watered down their version of spirituality is, you find it is more similar than different from an Atheist's view of our lot in life. A place where shit happens and no one seems to have a hotline to the big guy or we wouldn't have Guinea worms. (Google ride this at your own peril) I think some people believe in a vague great spirit and, like the deists, don't feel that God has much to do with our lives after creation. So that was what I was thinking, religious people who believe in God but are pretty skeptical about miracle claims outside their scriptures, East or West. Thanks for asking. Any insight is appreciated. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ccurtis wrote: So far I think that people making claims of miracles to gain spiritual credibility are more suspect than those who do not. Well, it would be pretty difficult to find a spiritual person who didn't believe in spirits, ergo, a miracle, since every materialist knows that there are no spirits - only claims. But, are you saying that there are spiritual materialists who make no claims of miracles or spirits? That would be a contradiction in terms, would it not?
