[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-04 Thread Irmeli Mattsson
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson
Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@
  wrote:
  
   Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
   have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
   through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
   drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
   techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam
floating on 
   a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
   and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
   burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
   would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
   of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
   Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it
would 
   not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
   maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned
from 
   Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is
physical, 
   spiritual, and real. 
   
   OffWorld
  
  
  You experience a lot of bliss and ascribe it to be possible only
  through the techniques that MMY has brought out, mainly because those
  techniques are the only ones you have seriously dedicated yourself to
  practise.
  I too experience a lot of bliss in a similar way that you describe,
  but I don't ascribe it solely due to the basic very simple TM
  technique that is the only technique I have learned through the TMO
  and only practised for half a year, as it was taught. Most people who
  have learned this simple technique have benefited very little from it.
 
 
 And you go so far as to violate a solemn promise you made just so
you can teach 
 something that people can benefit very  little from?
 
 BTW, how do you know that people have benefited very little from it?
 

When MMY came to the west, he didn't know that most people don't
benefit from it ? 
95% of those people, whom I persuaded to start TM, didn't experience
anything they considered special and important for themselves and
dropped the technique very soon.

 
 
  So it cannot be just the technique. For some reason you give MMY
  credit for something much bigger in which bringing out some simple
  techniques plays just a minor role. Why?
 
 Why do you say that this is so anyway?
 

Cannot you understand what I have written?

 
  
  But MMY's role for the values you have adopted is much bigger through
  the belief system you have adopted from him. That is: all we need is
  enough bliss to transform and enlighten the whole world.  The TMO has
  been trying to force it to happen. Trying to force one's belief system
  to become reality is called fundamentalism. But it won't become
  reality, because reality doesn't obey you. In there being more bliss
  now many different sources have been playing an important role. The
  TMO is just one of them. According to my understanding an enlightened
  person could give appreciation to them all.
  
  Bliss solving all the problems is a belief of your's and MMY's, not
  the reality. And trying to force more bliss to appear has got the TMO
  to resort to the principle `end justify means'. This principle usually
  goes together with forcing and manipulation, and often causes more
  harm than good.
  Bliss is not all that is needed to transform the world. It is one
  ingredient, but not sufficient alone.
 
 
 Sure it is. Bliss is based on the functioning of the nervous system.
Change the nervous 
 system in the right way and you transform a person. Transform enough
people and you 
 transform the world, whether or not the Maharishi Effect works or not.
 

Sure. But by concentrating to create bliss and being oblivious to
other important factors in the functioning of human nervous system,
doesn't make this kind of transformation to appear.

 
 Seeing it being all that is
  needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest
  behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't matter, only
  bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following routes:
  Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm beyond the
  karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed for me
  just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people following me.
  When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically
  purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really matter. 
  Maybe not on the big cosmic scale. He is too small a speck there. But
  for his personal evolution it certainly does, and karma he cannot
  escape.Accepting one's defects and being open with them is in itself
  transformative. Pretending to be something one is not, even if it
  happens in the name of a higher good, is degenerative. This is easy
  to 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-04 Thread Vaj


On Jul 4, 2006, at 3:02 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:Seeing it being all that is needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't matter, only bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following routes: "Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm beyond the karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed for me just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people following me. When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really matter."  Maybe not on the big cosmic scale. He is too small a speck there. But for his personal evolution it certainly does, and karma he cannot escape.Accepting one's defects and being open with them is in itself transformative. Pretending to be something one is not, even if it happens in the name of a higher good, is degenerative. This is easy to see to be true also for MMY. He has been a messenger boy and brought something important to the west, as have many other teachers. And many people have benefited from his teachings in spite of its weaknesses.   I thought you said m ost people didn't benefit from TM Which is it?   Many have benefited, most of the people who learned TM not.  When I read your responses, I get now, as I have got earlier too the impression, that you work very hard internally, to not to understand and to distort, what people, who don't agree with your thinking, write.He's not the only one here who does this. For some, it's as if it's their life's mission.It really is bizarre, and I often I just relegate it to the bizarro-bin, but at the same time you can't help but be disturbed by the "work [done] very hard internally, to not to understand and to distort" part. No bells of conscience (seemingly); is "cosmic heroin" (meditative bliss) that strong a drug? Apparently you do this with good conscience, because in your world it is only bliss that matters. Are you happy with the results this internal methodology has created in your life? Are you happy? Or maybe it doesn't matter for you. Just simple bliss matters. Not being happy can be solved eating Prozac?  
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-04 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jul 4, 2006, at 3:02 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:
 
  Seeing it being all that is
  needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest
  behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't 
matter,  
  only
  bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following  
  routes:
  Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm  
  beyond the
  karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed  
  for me
  just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people  
  following me.
  When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically
  purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really 
matter.
  Maybe not on the big cosmic scale. He is too small a speck 
there.  
  But
  for his personal evolution it certainly does, and karma he 
cannot
  escape.Accepting one's defects and being open with them is in 
itself
  transformative. Pretending to be something one is not, even if 
it
  happens in the name of a higher good, is degenerative. This is 
easy
  to see to be true also for MMY.
  He has been a messenger boy and brought something important to 
the
  west, as have many other teachers. And many people have 
benefited  
  from
  his teachings in spite of its weaknesses.
 
 
  I thought you said m ost people didn't benefit from TM Which is 
it?
 
 
  Many have benefited, most of the people who learned TM not.
 
  When I read your responses, I get now, as I have got earlier too
  the impression, that you work very hard internally, to not to 
  understand and to distort, what people, who don't agree with your 
  thinking, write.
 
 He's not the only one here who does this. For some, it's as if 
 it's their life's mission.

So it's never the case that people with whom these
some don't agree do not write clearly?

When I read Irmeli's post--before I'd seen Lawson's
response--I also saw an apparent contradiction
between Most people who have learned this simple
technique have benefited very little from it and
Many people have benefited from his teachings in
spite of its [sic] weaknesses.

 It really is bizarre, and I often I just relegate it to the bizarro-
 bin, but at the same time you can't help but be disturbed by the  
 work [done] very hard internally, to not to understand and to  
 distort part. No bells of conscience (seemingly); is cosmic  
 heroin (meditative bliss) that strong a drug?

This is clear enough; and it's clearly bullshit.

Vaj in particular is frequently guilty of writing
obscurely and even sloppily--and then arrogantly
declining to clarify.  The work [done] very hard
internally is an attempt to make sense of what he
writes, not to *not* understand it.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-04 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson
 Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@
   wrote:
   
Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam
 floating on 
a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it
 would 
not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned
 from 
Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is
 physical, 
spiritual, and real. 

OffWorld
   
   
   You experience a lot of bliss and ascribe it to be possible only
   through the techniques that MMY has brought out, mainly because those
   techniques are the only ones you have seriously dedicated yourself to
   practise.
   I too experience a lot of bliss in a similar way that you describe,
   but I don't ascribe it solely due to the basic very simple TM
   technique that is the only technique I have learned through the TMO
   and only practised for half a year, as it was taught. Most people who
   have learned this simple technique have benefited very little from it.
  
  
  And you go so far as to violate a solemn promise you made just so
 you can teach 
  something that people can benefit very  little from?
  
  BTW, how do you know that people have benefited very little from it?
  
 
 When MMY came to the west, he didn't know that most people don't
 benefit from it ? 
 95% of those people, whom I persuaded to start TM, didn't experience
 anything they considered special and important for themselves and
 dropped the technique very soon.
 
  
  
   So it cannot be just the technique. For some reason you give MMY
   credit for something much bigger in which bringing out some simple
   techniques plays just a minor role. Why?
  
  Why do you say that this is so anyway?
  
 
 Cannot you understand what I have written?
 
  
   
   But MMY's role for the values you have adopted is much bigger through
   the belief system you have adopted from him. That is: all we need is
   enough bliss to transform and enlighten the whole world.  The TMO has
   been trying to force it to happen. Trying to force one's belief system
   to become reality is called fundamentalism. But it won't become
   reality, because reality doesn't obey you. In there being more bliss
   now many different sources have been playing an important role. The
   TMO is just one of them. According to my understanding an enlightened
   person could give appreciation to them all.
   
   Bliss solving all the problems is a belief of your's and MMY's, not
   the reality. And trying to force more bliss to appear has got the TMO
   to resort to the principle `end justify means'. This principle usually
   goes together with forcing and manipulation, and often causes more
   harm than good.
   Bliss is not all that is needed to transform the world. It is one
   ingredient, but not sufficient alone.
  
  
  Sure it is. Bliss is based on the functioning of the nervous system.
 Change the nervous 
  system in the right way and you transform a person. Transform enough
 people and you 
  transform the world, whether or not the Maharishi Effect works or not.
  
 
 Sure. But by concentrating to create bliss and being oblivious to
 other important factors in the functioning of human nervous system,
 doesn't make this kind of transformation to appear.


TM is concentration? And TM is always sufficient to generate some degree of 
Bliss. That's 
the most amazing thing about it: it really does always work.


 
  
  Seeing it being all that is
   needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest
   behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't matter, only
   bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following routes:
   Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm beyond the
   karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed for me
   just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people following me.
   When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically
   purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really matter. 
   Maybe not on 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-04 Thread Irmeli Mattsson
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson
Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote:

  When I read your responses, I get now, as I have got earlier too the
  impression, that you work very hard internally, to not to understand
  and to distort, what people, who don't agree with your thinking,
  write. Apparently you do this with good conscience, because in your
  world it is only bliss that matters.
  Are you happy with the results this internal methodology has created
  in your life? Are you happy? Or maybe it doesn't matter for you. Just
  simple bliss matters. Not being happy can be solved eating Prozac? 
  
  
 
 For me, Prozac helps counter the effects of the 3-year allergy
attack I suffered a few years 
 ago. And ALL of my doctors, counselors and whatnot agree that TM is
essential to my 
 health and well-being.

 
I agree with you here. And I apologize. I was rude in my comment here.

Irmeli






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-03 Thread Irmeli Mattsson
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
 have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
 through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
 drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
 techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam floating on 
 a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
 and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
 burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
 would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
 of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
 Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it would 
 not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
 maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned from 
 Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is physical, 
 spiritual, and real. 
 
 OffWorld


You experience a lot of bliss and ascribe it to be possible only
through the techniques that MMY has brought out, mainly because those
techniques are the only ones you have seriously dedicated yourself to
practise.
I too experience a lot of bliss in a similar way that you describe,
but I don't ascribe it solely due to the basic very simple TM
technique that is the only technique I have learned through the TMO
and only practised for half a year, as it was taught. Most people who
have learned this simple technique have benefited very little from it.
So it cannot be just the technique. For some reason you give MMY
credit for something much bigger in which bringing out some simple
techniques plays just a minor role. Why?

But MMY's role for the values you have adopted is much bigger through
the belief system you have adopted from him. That is: all we need is
enough bliss to transform and enlighten the whole world.  The TMO has
been trying to force it to happen. Trying to force one's belief system
to become reality is called fundamentalism. But it won't become
reality, because reality doesn't obey you. In there being more bliss
now many different sources have been playing an important role. The
TMO is just one of them. According to my understanding an enlightened
person could give appreciation to them all.

Bliss solving all the problems is a belief of your's and MMY's, not
the reality. And trying to force more bliss to appear has got the TMO
to resort to the principle `end justify means'. This principle usually
goes together with forcing and manipulation, and often causes more
harm than good.
Bliss is not all that is needed to transform the world. It is one
ingredient, but not sufficient alone. Seeing it being all that is
needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest
behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't matter, only
bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following routes:
Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm beyond the
karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed for me
just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people following me.
When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically
purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really matter. 
Maybe not on the big cosmic scale. He is too small a speck there. But
for his personal evolution it certainly does, and karma he cannot
escape.Accepting one's defects and being open with them is in itself
transformative. Pretending to be something one is not, even if it
happens in the name of a higher good, is degenerative. This is easy
to see to be true also for MMY.
He has been a messenger boy and brought something important to the
west, as have many other teachers. And many people have benefited from
his teachings in spite of its weaknesses.

Irmeli







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-07-03 Thread sparaig
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings no_reply@
 wrote:
 
  Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
  have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
  through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
  drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
  techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam floating on 
  a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
  and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
  burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
  would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
  of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
  Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it would 
  not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
  maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned from 
  Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is physical, 
  spiritual, and real. 
  
  OffWorld
 
 
 You experience a lot of bliss and ascribe it to be possible only
 through the techniques that MMY has brought out, mainly because those
 techniques are the only ones you have seriously dedicated yourself to
 practise.
 I too experience a lot of bliss in a similar way that you describe,
 but I don't ascribe it solely due to the basic very simple TM
 technique that is the only technique I have learned through the TMO
 and only practised for half a year, as it was taught. Most people who
 have learned this simple technique have benefited very little from it.


And you go so far as to violate a solemn promise you made just so you can teach 
something that people can benefit very  little from?

BTW, how do you know that people have benefited very little from it?



 So it cannot be just the technique. For some reason you give MMY
 credit for something much bigger in which bringing out some simple
 techniques plays just a minor role. Why?

Why do you say that this is so anyway?


 
 But MMY's role for the values you have adopted is much bigger through
 the belief system you have adopted from him. That is: all we need is
 enough bliss to transform and enlighten the whole world.  The TMO has
 been trying to force it to happen. Trying to force one's belief system
 to become reality is called fundamentalism. But it won't become
 reality, because reality doesn't obey you. In there being more bliss
 now many different sources have been playing an important role. The
 TMO is just one of them. According to my understanding an enlightened
 person could give appreciation to them all.
 
 Bliss solving all the problems is a belief of your's and MMY's, not
 the reality. And trying to force more bliss to appear has got the TMO
 to resort to the principle `end justify means'. This principle usually
 goes together with forcing and manipulation, and often causes more
 harm than good.
 Bliss is not all that is needed to transform the world. It is one
 ingredient, but not sufficient alone. 

Sure it is. Bliss is based on the functioning of the nervous system. Change the 
nervous 
system in the right way and you transform a person. Transform enough people and 
you 
transform the world, whether or not the Maharishi Effect works or not.


Seeing it being all that is
 needed is MMY's biggest fallacy. It has justified him dishonest
 behaviour, because for him how his mind operates doesn't matter, only
 bliss matters. His thinking has probably gone in the following routes:
 Because I'm bringing to the world this absolute bliss, I'm beyond the
 karmic consequences of my gross level behaviour. It is allowed for me
 just to make a powerful impression and manipulate people following me.
 When the bliss transforms the world, I too will be automatically
 purified.What I now do behind the curtains doesn't really matter. 
 Maybe not on the big cosmic scale. He is too small a speck there. But
 for his personal evolution it certainly does, and karma he cannot
 escape.Accepting one's defects and being open with them is in itself
 transformative. Pretending to be something one is not, even if it
 happens in the name of a higher good, is degenerative. This is easy
 to see to be true also for MMY.
 He has been a messenger boy and brought something important to the
 west, as have many other teachers. And many people have benefited from
 his teachings in spite of its weaknesses.


I thought you said m ost people didn't benefit from TM Which is it?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-06-28 Thread off_world_beings
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  My question to Peter did he hear directly from any long-term 
disciples
  that MMY accepts none of the reponsibility of
  having disciples. Or is it simply baseless speculation?
  
 There were times when Maharishi promised, both to individuals and 
groups,
 that he would take personal responsibility for their evolution. 
The best
 known example was at the end of the Amherst course, summer of Œ78 
or Œ79,
 when MMY was trying to talk everyone into moving to MIU. He 
promised that if
 they did so, he would take personal responsibility for their 
evolution. He
 may even have said their enlightenment.


Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam floating on 
a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it would 
not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned from 
Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is physical, 
spiritual, and real. 

OffWorld 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maharishi's name//now - The threat of Bliss

2006-06-28 Thread authfriend
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote:
  
   My question to Peter did he hear directly from any long-term 
 disciples
   that MMY accepts none of the reponsibility of
   having disciples. Or is it simply baseless speculation?
   
  There were times when Maharishi promised, both to individuals and 
 groups,
  that he would take personal responsibility for their evolution. 
 The best
  known example was at the end of the Amherst course, summer of Œ78 
 or Œ79,
  when MMY was trying to talk everyone into moving to MIU. He 
 promised that if
  they did so, he would take personal responsibility for their 
 evolution. He
  may even have said their enlightenment.
 
 
 Well, I may not be enlightened, but due to Maharishi's techniques I 
 have had experiences of the universe that I could not possibly have 
 through any other way that I know of(except maybe brain damaging 
 drugs). And, my direct experience, entirely as a result of his 
 techniques, is that the world we play in is like flotsam floating 
on 
 a vast ocean of very intensified bliss energy. It is so powerful, 
 and it is just below the surface of things, and it threatens to 
 burst into, and overflow our universe at any time. Such an event 
 would be so powerful that everyone would be transformed in a matter 
 of minutes. It would be like the magma under the surface of the 
 Earth, bursting out and flowing all over the surface...only it 
would 
 not be fire, but bliss. I believe this cataclysm is only years, 
 maybe a few decades away, at most. This is not what I learned 
from 
 Maharishi, but my direct and very common experience. It is 
physical, 
 spiritual, and real.

Ah, but it's *dualistic*.  Just ask Vaj.







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