[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also. I see him as a man who is sometimes crass and selfish, and sometimes a saint with compassionate and magnanimous motives. Both ordinary and extraordinary. It is the limitation of some people that they cannot conceive of those they have put up on pedestals of being capable of being both crass *and* saints, at the same time. In their minds, a being can only be one or the other. Their limitations in this respect should not prevent those of us who have *no problem* conceiving of such a thing from doing so. I think it really comes down to what we consider a Saint. True, humans are capable of the entire spectrum of behavior, from near complete purity to abhorrent evil, and everything in between, as you mention above for example, partly crass, partly pure. Jim, you nailed the issue IMO by using the phrase what *we* consider a saint. I've never met a saint who considered himself or herself one. But I've met quite a few humans whose followers consider them saints. It's a projection process -- what the onlookers project *onto* the person and their actions -- that determines sainthood, as that term is used on this planet. In my opinion humans have an inherent tendency to look for perfection and project it onto the people and things in which they hope it resides. But the people and things themselves are just people and things -- multifaceted, each of them containing as many imperfect sides as they do perfect ones. Have you ever read any of the words written *by* the so-called saints? They're often revealing, especially when compared to the words written *about* them by their followers. Saint Francis of Asissi was regarded as a saint by some people of his time (and today), but if you read *his* writings, he thought that he was essentially a slimeball. All that he could see about himself were the last few imperfections that he was working on trying to get rid of. You can find the same thing in many of the writings of Eastern saints. In other words, *they* don't delude themselves into thinking that they're perfect. Only their followers do that. For the saints themselves, they're just trying to get through the day, and do as much good as they can, while doing as little harm as they can. And enlightenment does not necessarily make that process of discernment any easier, as far as I can tell. These people whose followers call them saints are *human*, and make human mistakes, just as any other human does. That's one of the main reasons I don't like the word saint, and rarely use it. It implies that the person you attach the label to is no longer going through the daily struggle to keep their thoughts and their actions clean, and has somehow risen above the need to do so. Me, I don't think humans *ever* get to that place. And that's just FINE with me. I don't need saints or even the idea of them to make me feel good about someone when they do something selfless. If they do something selfish the next day, that doesn't detract from the selfless thing they did yesterday. However there are those few precious individuals on the planet who are completely sinless. Well, I'd have to agree with this one, but that's because I don't believe that there is any such thing as sin. It's a human-invented concept, and a bad concept at that, one that has caused more suffering in the people who have come to believe in it than their supposed sins have ever caused. Sin, as used in modern society, is synonymous with doing something that you have been convinced there is a need to feel guilty about. That's a concept that is pretty much foreign and meaningless to a Tantric, one who views every action one could perform in the world as equally holy. It's not the action per se; it's the state of attention and intent and joy that one brings to the action that makes the difference. It is a very very small group... Again, we agree. I think its membership is zero. And that's OK. Far better to be a human being who is trying to do the little things of his or her life in as positive a fashion as possible than to be some fictional character in someone's fantasy who does *everything* positively. In other words, although you are welcome to your ideas about saints and how sinless and perfect they are, I have to regard these ideas as your projected fantasies. That doesn't mean that I don't think you are perfectly
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip It is the limitation of some people that they cannot conceive of those they have put up on pedestals of being capable of being both crass *and* saints, at the same time. In their minds, a being can only be one or the other. Their limitations in this respect should not prevent those of us who have *no problem* conceiving of such a thing from doing so. snip In other words, although you are welcome to your ideas about saints and how sinless and perfect they are, I have to regard these ideas as your projected fantasies. That doesn't mean that I don't think you are perfectly entitled to believe what you believe, or that I think your beliefs are lesser than mine. Just that people who hold such beliefs are, uh, limited compared to you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also. I see him as a man who is sometimes crass and selfish, and sometimes a saint with compassionate and magnanimous motives. Both ordinary and extraordinary. It is the limitation of some people that they cannot conceive of those they have put up on pedestals of being capable of being both crass *and* saints, at the same time. In their minds, a being can only be one or the other. Their limitations in this respect should not prevent those of us who have *no problem* conceiving of such a thing from doing so. I think it really comes down to what we consider a Saint. True, humans are capable of the entire spectrum of behavior, from near complete purity to abhorrent evil, and everything in between, as you mention above for example, partly crass, partly pure. Jim, you nailed the issue IMO by using the phrase what *we* consider a saint. I've never met a saint who considered himself or herself one. But I've met quite a few humans whose followers consider them saints. Yep. Once there is distance to an object, the object is revealed. Since we cannot by definition look at ourselves that way, it is appropriate that we will never see ourselves the same way someone else does. I agree it would be ludicrous for a saint to call themselves one. It's a projection process -- what the onlookers project *onto* the person and their actions -- that determines sainthood, as that term is used on this planet. For some this is the case- possibly in most cases, it is the kind of thoughtless reflexive static judgment you are describing here. For me it is more like suddenly becoming aware that I have had a sensation on my skin for awhile, and therefore the wind is blowing. An accretive process, and very dynamic, evaluated moment by moment. Memory and feel good labels play no part in my discernment of sainthood (even that term is inappropriate but as close as I can get in English). In my opinion humans have an inherent tendency to look for perfection and project it onto the people and things in which they hope it resides. But the people and things themselves are just people and things -- multifaceted, each of them containing as many imperfect sides as they do perfect ones. I don't understand this process you are speaking of, except in a general Krishna multiverse type of model...If you mean I may have a need or a reason for projecting something on someone, e.g. sainthood, no that is not what I am referring to here. Have you ever read any of the words written *by* the so-called saints? They're often revealing, especially when compared to the words written *about* them by their followers. Saint Francis of Asissi was regarded as a saint by some people of his time (and today), but if you read *his* writings, he thought that he was essentially a slimeball. All that he could see about himself were the last few imperfections that he was working on trying to get rid of. You can find the same thing in many of the writings of Eastern saints. Exactly as it should be. To me they appear sinless, and yet to them its like, hey what's on TV? Damn I wish I didn't watch so much TV. A relative phenomenon to be sure. In other words, *they* don't delude themselves into thinking that they're perfect. Only their followers do that. For the saints themselves, they're just trying to get through the day, and do as much good as they can, while doing as little harm as they can. And enlightenment does not necessarily make that process of discernment any easier, as far as I can tell. These people whose followers call them saints are *human*, and make human mistakes, just as any other human does. Mistakes. That's an interesting concept. If you explain to me what one is, I may agree such things exist...or not. That's one of the main reasons I don't like the word saint, and rarely use it. It implies that the person you attach the label to is no longer going through the daily struggle to keep their thoughts and their actions clean, and has somehow risen above the need to do so. Me, I don't think humans *ever* get to that place. Yes, I will only use the word when it is appropriate. Its all relative. Nonetheless, there is always growth- it just never, ever ends. However,
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
I just don't understand Lurk, Why should a Guru keep testing his students.?? What does MMY gain from all this.?? If the disciple faithfully follows the teachings he benefits. Otherwise, he dosen't. lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 04:49:27 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled Lurk why did you leave Purusha? Nabluss: I did not pass the test of patience. Nab: The tests consisted of going on endless projects establishing different institutions all over the world. In the end I just ran out of enthusiasm. Lurk: I understand that. You have not run out of enthusiasm for Maharishi obviously. And personally, I find many of Mr. Creme's comments to be very prescient (big word), although there are many aspects of share.int I don't relate to very well. But again, there is obviously no crack in your devotion to MMY. Is it fair to say you have elevated him to pretty much incapable of error status. (and really, I am not trying to bait you, although I admit I do snicker a little inside at your seeming absolute faith in him, but I don't judge you for it)(isn't that big of me)(here I sound like edg, being sure I keep the ego in check) - Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just don't understand Lurk, Why should a Guru keep testing his students.?? What does MMY gain from all this.?? Maharishi gains nothing (and needs nothing), the student gains everything. If there is a gain at all for Maharishi it could be to see the rise of consciousness in the world. For any Saint that is perhaps the only reason to rejoice.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just don't understand Lurk, Why should a Guru keep testing his students.?? What does MMY gain from all this.?? If the disciple faithfully follows the teachings he benefits. Otherwise, he dosen't. Dunno. I guess when Nab was on the program it required going out into the field a lot. That's never easy when you have to do it on a shoe string. Or maybe there was pressure to come up with money every month to stay on the program. What was fun and exciting when we were 18 and 20, may lose some of its charm when we're 35 and 40. (I'm 51, but I don't believe Purusha has been doing much outreach for the last 10 years) lurk - Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is a gain at all for Maharishi it could be to see the rise o consciousness in the world. For any Saint that is perhaps the only reason to rejoice. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum. lurk
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: If there is a gain at all for Maharishi it could be to see the rise o consciousness in the world. For any Saint that is perhaps the only reason to rejoice. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum. lurk It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jim_flanegin Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 11:09 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also. I see him as a man who is sometimes crass and selfish, and sometimes a saint with compassionate and magnanimous motives. Both ordinary and extraordinary.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
On May 12, 2007, at 10:45 AM, lurkernomore20002000 wrote: Dunno. I guess when Nab was on the program it required going out into the field a lot. That's never easy when you have to do it on a shoe string. Or maybe there was pressure to come up with money every month to stay on the program. There definitely was. WHile I never head of anyone actually getting kicked out for lack of funds, every few months I would get phone calls or letters from some friends on both Purusha or MD to make a donation. What was fun and exciting when we were 18 and 20 I can't imagine hitting up your friends for $$, especially repeatedly, falls under almost anybody's definition of fun. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also. I see him as a man who is sometimes crass and selfish, and sometimes a saint with compassionate and magnanimous motives. Both ordinary and extraordinary. It is the limitation of some people that they cannot conceive of those they have put up on pedestals of being capable of being both crass *and* saints, at the same time. In their minds, a being can only be one or the other. Their limitations in this respect should not prevent those of us who have *no problem* conceiving of such a thing from doing so.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@ wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com It all comes down to whether we see him as a Saint or not. If not, his motives are crass and selfish, or at best well intentioned fumbling, and everything he does clicks into place with that perspective. On the other hand, if we see him as a Saint it all clicks into place also. I see him as a man who is sometimes crass and selfish, and sometimes a saint with compassionate and magnanimous motives. Both ordinary and extraordinary. It is the limitation of some people that they cannot conceive of those they have put up on pedestals of being capable of being both crass *and* saints, at the same time. In their minds, a being can only be one or the other. Their limitations in this respect should not prevent those of us who have *no problem* conceiving of such a thing from doing so. I think it really comes down to what we consider a Saint. True, humans are capable of the entire spectrum of behavior, from near complete purity to abhorrent evil, and everything in between, as you mention above for example, partly crass, partly pure. However there are those few precious individuals on the planet who are completely sinless. For them it is not a matter of where we put them; rather their subjective nature is so much a part of their objective purity that the two are to even the most scrutinizing observer, indistinguishable. To me those few are worthy of the label Saint. It is a very very small group, and would probably be so on any inhabited planet, for once the rules are perfected, its time for the next game, the next challenge somewhere else.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (here I sound like edg, being sure I keep the ego in check) Lurky, I think I'm on record for being helpless in the face of the ego's powers to snatch identity out of my tightest grasp -- and then use it like the skin off of the cop's face was used -- as a mask by Dr. Hannibal Edg Lecter. Yeah, ego is that hideous to me. Having a personality is being trapped inside a prison cell constructed entirely from meat. Ego is a meat mask the soul wears. But without ego, they say that incarnation is Adam before the fall. Maybe sorta cudda. Keeping the ego in check? Only the ego thinks it's a doer, so only the ego can be said to do the checking. Wolf guarding the hen house. But it makes for some fine and subtle comedy. Soul: B Ego: MEE! Funny, SE? Like Ellen at the end of her opening monologue, now, all I can think of to do is dance. Let's all do the Monster Mash! It'll be such a Thriller to have at least another 28 Days and Nights of the Living Dead ganggervorting to the Drag-Yer-Leg and Slough Off Shuffle by Magog and the Moldy Hearts. Edg
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 steve.sundur@ (here I sound like edg, being sure I keep the ego in check) Lurky, I think I'm on record for being helpless in the face of the ego's powers to snatch identity out of my tightest grasp -- and then use it like the skin off of the cop's face was used -- as a mask by Dr. Hannibal Edg Lecter. Nice image. In a Dexter sorta way, that is. :-) Yeah, ego is that hideous to me. Having a personality is being trapped inside a prison cell constructed entirely from meat. Ego is a meat mask the soul wears. I feel for you, but y'know...I really don't feel that way. To me the different ego-personality selves that flit across my Self are kinda cool. They're like costumes, at a fancy dress ball. You put them on for a while and see how they act and how much fun they seem to have, and then you take off that costume and put on another one. The things that these empheremal selves say and do and believe last no longer than the time that I'm wearing them, while the Self continues on. What's not to like about that? It's not just 200% of life, one Self plus one self...it's 100% of the Self plus 100% of a seemingly never-ending succession of selves. snippus interruptus But it makes for some fine and subtle comedy. Indeed it does. And at this point in my life I'm not convinced that it would be any funnier if there were no ego present. So a succession of costume-selves is just fine by me. Self may be cool and all, but selves have more fun.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lurk: Nab, You have me speechless on this one. I'd really like to know more about you, occupation etc., to gain insight into how you interact with the world on a daily basis. lurk Nab: Speechless eh ? Fine. Brilliant. I do not lead a normal life, never wanted to, never have. After spending 12 years on Purusha I now work fulltime as a freelance photographer. Never a dull day, but hardly remarkable. Thanks for the come back. Okay, this helps. But why did you leave Purusha, if you don't mind me asking. lurk I did not pass the test of patience. Maharishi has been critized in India for not testing his students, to which he replied: I will test them later. Purusha has been tested and tested again, believe me. Those who pass these seemingly endless tests will be pretty stable in the end.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
Lurk Thanks for the come back. Okay, this helps. But why did you leave Purusha, if you don't mind me asking. Nabluss: I did not pass the test of patience.snip Nab, tell me if you care to, is this another way of saying Benjamen Creme and share.int had something to do with it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lurk Thanks for the come back. Okay, this helps. But why did you leave Purusha, if you don't mind me asking. Nabluss: I did not pass the test of patience.snip Nab, tell me if you care to, is this another way of saying Benjamen Creme and share.int had something to do with it? None whatsoever. The tests consisted of going on endless projects establishing different institutions all over the world. In the end I just ran out of enthusiasm.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
Lurk why did you leave Purusha? Nabluss: I did not pass the test of patience. Nab: The tests consisted of going on endless projects establishing different institutions all over the world. In the end I just ran out of enthusiasm. Lurk: I understand that. You have not run out of enthusiasm for Maharishi obviously. And personally, I find many of Mr. Creme's comments to be very prescient (big word), although there are many aspects of share.int I don't relate to very well. But again, there is obviously no crack in your devotion to MMY. Is it fair to say you have elevated him to pretty much incapable of error status. (and really, I am not trying to bait you, although I admit I do snicker a little inside at your seeming absolute faith in him, but I don't judge you for it)(isn't that big of me)(here I sound like edg, being sure I keep the ego in check)
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My take is that the craftsman was a greedy little crook who needed some correction. Maharishi would never do such a thing, if it is a true story, without a very good reason. Nab, You have me speechless on this one. I'd really like to know more about you, occupation etc., to gain insight into how you interact with the world on a daily basis. I'm not meaning to judge you, it's just that I find your take on some things remarkable, and curious how this might play out on a daily basis, in so called normal life. lurk
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: My take is that the craftsman was a greedy little crook who needed some correction. Maharishi would never do such a thing, if it is a true story, without a very good reason. Nab, You have me speechless on this one. I'd really like to know more about you, occupation etc., to gain insight into how you interact with the world on a daily basis. I'm not meaning to judge you, it's just that I find your take on some things remarkable, and curious how this might play out on a daily basis, in so called normal life. lurk Speechless eh ? Fine. Brilliant. I do not lead a normal life, never wanted to, never have. After spending 12 years on Purusha I now work fulltime as a freelance photographer. Never a dull day, but hardly remarkable.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not lead a normal life, never wanted to, never have. After spending 12 years on Purusha I now work fulltime as a freelance photographer. Never a dull day, but hardly remarkable. In all seriousness, no digs intended *at all*, are there any of your photos on the Web that we can see? I'm always interested in seeing the visual artwork of the people I talk to on the Internet.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: I do not lead a normal life, never wanted to, never have. After spending 12 years on Purusha I now work fulltime as a freelance photographer. Never a dull day, but hardly remarkable. In all seriousness, no digs intended *at all*, are there any of your photos on the Web that we can see? I'm always interested in seeing the visual artwork of the people I talk to on the Internet. There is, but you would have to know in what agency to search, and I am not in the mood to give you that clue :-) But if you wanted I could post some photos from Paris here perhaps. That is, if it is not too PC'problematic since I'm not exactly a PC- wizard, or too timeconsuming.
[FairfieldLife] Re: recent photos of rishikesh Chair order cancelled
Lurk: Nab, You have me speechless on this one. I'd really like to know more about you, occupation etc., to gain insight into how you interact with the world on a daily basis. lurk Nab: Speechless eh ? Fine. Brilliant. I do not lead a normal life, never wanted to, never have. After spending 12 years on Purusha I now work fulltime as a freelance photographer. Never a dull day, but hardly remarkable. Thanks for the come back. Okay, this helps. But why did you leave Purusha, if you don't mind me asking. lurk
