Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
It is very simple. I am trying to mount a FAT32 partition when I log in. I want it to be dynamically unmounted, and re-mounted, whenever a different user logs in. This has to be done to change the UID. (GID alone isn't enough to get full functionality under GNOME). As far as I can tell, automount doesn't do the unmount and remount for each user part. If someone corrects me I will gladly appreciate it, but for now I am very happy with my script. On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: Jud Craft wrote: It doesn't help to be members of the group/GID. I've definitely tried that mount option. Thank you for all of the GID hints, but as far as I can tell, that's not enough here. GNOME's trash functionality under FAT32, in particular, is based upon the UID of the user that has currently mounted the drive. It -must- currently be remounted per user, as a limitation of the Nautilus trash design. It -is- true that for all other intents and purposes, GID works fine. But it seems that some Nautilus functions really require the UID of the user to be set, so GID alone won't cut it. I am specifically trying to get GNOME to work. Since I'm using this partition to exchange data between Windows and Linux, it does have to be FAT32. I just don't understand a thing you are saying You started out by saying you wanted to write a script that does some mounting...from your own post... It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. So folks here have been talking about ways to mount things automatically using standard tools ... but now you reject advice due to FAT32. But your script that would mount would be mounting a FAT32 device/file system, yes? So, I don't known what in blazes your script would do differently and why your way would work and others won't. So...OK... I give up I am 100% certain that if I were in your shoes I could get things to work just fine without any kind of script or roadblock that you keep throwing up. Good luck... -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: It is very simple. I am trying to mount a FAT32 partition when I log in. I want it to be dynamically unmounted, and re-mounted, whenever a different user logs in. This has to be done to change the UID. (GID alone isn't enough to get full functionality under GNOME). As far as I can tell, automount doesn't do the unmount and remount for each user part. If someone corrects me I will gladly appreciate it, but for now I am very happy with my script. Since you are happy with your script, and not interested in doing your own research, I can see no value in telling you how it can be doneand the more than one way to achieve the results you desire. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
It is very true that I did not want to do my own research. I wanted to summon the exact answer I needed from someone else's mind. Rediscovery was something I did not want to waste time on. Of laziness, I stand guilty. Genuinely, thanks for the posts though. Bookmarked, I'll be sure to give this stuff another look when I become unsatisfied again. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: It is very true that I did not want to do my own research. I wanted to summon the exact answer I needed from someone else's mind. Rediscovery was something I did not want to waste time on. Of laziness, I stand guilty. Good to know. Genuinely, thanks for the posts though. Bookmarked, I'll be sure to give this stuff another look when I become unsatisfied again. Welcome. Should you need help in the future I hope I remember this episode. My tendency is to not get involved in problem solving when the individual with the problem isn't willing or interested enough to do a bit of work. -- The human brain is a wonderful thing. It starts working the moment you are born, and never stops until you stand up to speak in public. -- Sir George Jessel mei-mei.gres...@greshko.com http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=cCSz_koUhSg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:59 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: the FAT32-user limitation is built into GNOME, so that's not going away Obvious question: Does it have to be FAT32? -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Saturday 22 August 2009 08:20:36 Tim wrote: On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:59 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: the FAT32-user limitation is built into GNOME, so that's not going away Why not tweak the /etc/fstab (I believe Ed Greshko already gave you that suggestion)? If I understand your usecase correctly, you can do it this way: 1) create some dummy user 2) modify /etc/fstab to have the drive mounted at boot time with the dummy user/group as owners (uid, gid), give it rwx permissions for the dummy group (umask), set appropriate SELinux info (context) 3) put all users that are supposed to use that drive into the dummy group 4) check that everything works as it should man mount is your friend. :-) Also, all this has nothing to do with Gnome, it shoud honor your settings. HTH, :-) Marko -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 4:09 AM, Marko Vojinovicvvma...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday 22 August 2009 08:20:36 Tim wrote: On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:59 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: the FAT32-user limitation is built into GNOME, so that's not going away Why not tweak the /etc/fstab (I believe Ed Greshko already gave you that suggestion)? If I understand your usecase correctly, you can do it this way: 1) create some dummy user 2) modify /etc/fstab to have the drive mounted at boot time with the dummy user/group as owners (uid, gid), give it rwx permissions for the dummy group (umask), set appropriate SELinux info (context) 3) put all users that are supposed to use that drive into the dummy group 4) check that everything works as it should That would work... but you don't have to create a new user. Set the ownership to the user nobody and the dummy group Set the group permissions for the directory to SGID. Later you add users to the dummygrp group in /etc/group. ~af -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 20:47 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: Since I'm using this partition to exchange data between Windows and Linux, it does have to be FAT32. Not necessarily. Depending on your version of Windows, and acceptance of a risk factor on Linux, you can use NTFS (which can support different users). And there are are drivers for Windows to access Linux file systems. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
I know that NTFS is pretty much as functional as FAT32 is. But I don't think that NTFS supports Linux users and groups on Linux. Does it? On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Timignored_mail...@yahoo.com.au wrote: On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 20:47 -0400, Jud Craft wrote: Since I'm using this partition to exchange data between Windows and Linux, it does have to be FAT32. Not necessarily. Depending on your version of Windows, and acceptance of a risk factor on Linux, you can use NTFS (which can support different users). And there are are drivers for Windows to access Linux file systems. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: It doesn't help to be members of the group/GID. I've definitely tried that mount option. Thank you for all of the GID hints, but as far as I can tell, that's not enough here. GNOME's trash functionality under FAT32, in particular, is based upon the UID of the user that has currently mounted the drive. It -must- currently be remounted per user, as a limitation of the Nautilus trash design. It -is- true that for all other intents and purposes, GID works fine. But it seems that some Nautilus functions really require the UID of the user to be set, so GID alone won't cut it. I am specifically trying to get GNOME to work. Since I'm using this partition to exchange data between Windows and Linux, it does have to be FAT32. I just don't understand a thing you are saying You started out by saying you wanted to write a script that does some mounting...from your own post... It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. So folks here have been talking about ways to mount things automatically using standard tools ... but now you reject advice due to FAT32. But your script that would mount would be mounting a FAT32 device/file system, yes? So, I don't known what in blazes your script would do differently and why your way would work and others won't. So...OK... I give up I am 100% certain that if I were in your shoes I could get things to work just fine without any kind of script or roadblock that you keep throwing up. Good luck... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
I don't think Fedora comes with auto-fs built in, does it? One feature I essentially need is that all my users are in a mount-group, so they can all unmount the drive. Whenever a user logs in, I need the drive to be automatically unmounted and then -remounted- as that user. Doing a simple script that does umount followed by mount accomplishes this nicely. I just need to make the script run before Nautilus so it doesn't freak out if the XDG Desktop directory changes. I'm not sure auto-fs can be set to automatically umount the partition if a different user is logging in and then remount it as that user. Similar to gnome-automount, I think it just automatically mounts the partition once, and leaves it mounted under the original user that mounted it even across sessions. That won't work. Key problem is that a lot of GNOME programs won't work with a FAT32 partition unless it is mounted under the user's name (ex., Trash functionality, temporary backup files in Text Editor, etc) since FAT32 doesn't have standard Unix permissions, so GNOME's shortcut is to only allow functionality for the user who mounted it (not even the group, but the specific user). That's great for a personal flash drive, but not for a shared system partition that holds documents or temp files. I want that to work automatically across different accounts on my machine, before startup, without any user action. So automatically remounting the FAT32 partition under the current user seems like a good idea. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: Jud Craft wrote: It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. Have you considered using autofs for this? The automount will only happen when directory is accessed. So, something like this should work In auto.master /misc /etc/auto.misc In /etc/auto.misc Desktop -fstype=auto :/dev/sdc2 (or whatever you need) And in your home directory make Desktop a symbolic link to /misc/Desktop. There are probably better ways to construct this with autofsbut I'm not giving it too much thought I've also read where pam can be used for what you want -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: I don't think Fedora comes with auto-fs built in, does it? Yes, it is available yum install autofs. The rest of you post indicates that you want to do more/less/different things than what you stated earlier as simply mounting a drive that contains your Desktop directory. And frankly, I don't know all of your requirements. Maybe all of your users run around with their directories on flash drivesI don't know. Anywayyou haven't tried autofs and from what you say below you don't really know how it works...and all the options available and maybe you don't even want to give it a try since you've already decided on a solution. (FWIW, the above doesn't sound good when I read it back...so I hope you don't take offensepast midnight here and too sleepy to change it) One feature I essentially need is that all my users are in a mount-group, so they can all unmount the drive. Whenever a user logs in, I need the drive to be automatically unmounted and then -remounted- as that user. Doing a simple script that does umount followed by mount accomplishes this nicely. I just need to make the script run before Nautilus so it doesn't freak out if the XDG Desktop directory changes. I'm not sure auto-fs can be set to automatically umount the partition if a different user is logging in and then remount it as that user. Similar to gnome-automount, I think it just automatically mounts the partition once, and leaves it mounted under the original user that mounted it even across sessions. That won't work. Key problem is that a lot of GNOME programs won't work with a FAT32 partition unless it is mounted under the user's name (ex., Trash functionality, temporary backup files in Text Editor, etc) since FAT32 doesn't have standard Unix permissions, so GNOME's shortcut is to only allow functionality for the user who mounted it (not even the group, but the specific user). That's great for a personal flash drive, but not for a shared system partition that holds documents or temp files. I want that to work automatically across different accounts on my machine, before startup, without any user action. So automatically remounting the FAT32 partition under the current user seems like a good idea. On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: Jud Craft wrote: It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. Have you considered using autofs for this? The automount will only happen when directory is accessed. So, something like this should work In auto.master /misc /etc/auto.misc In /etc/auto.misc Desktop -fstype=auto :/dev/sdc2 (or whatever you need) And in your home directory make Desktop a symbolic link to /misc/Desktop. There are probably better ways to construct this with autofsbut I'm not giving it too much thought I've also read where pam can be used for what you want -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- You have a strong desire for a home and your family interests come first. mei-mei.gres...@greshko.com http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=cCSz_koUhSg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:39:17 -0400 Jud Craft wrote: Doing a simple script that does umount followed by mount accomplishes this nicely. I just need to make the script run before Nautilus so it doesn't freak out if the XDG Desktop directory changes. One of the places where scripts get run (maybe even gnome-session gets run) is in the /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc.d/ directory. In fact I see a script in there named xdg-user-dirs.sh - I wonder if there is already some mechanism in place for what you want if only it was documented somewhere? :-). -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
One thing I forgot to mention I prefer to solve problems with standard tools than specialized scripts that need to be maintained. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: One thing I forgot to mention I prefer to solve problems with standard tools than specialized scripts that need to be maintained. I totally agree. But the FAT32-user limitation is built into GNOME, so that's not going away. Besides, the script's two lines. Thanks to the guy who said check xinitrc.d! I'll give that a shot. For the curious, the per-user mount is a shared FAT32 partition, which contains Documents and Desktop folders for all users. It has to be remounted per-user to work well under GNOME. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: One thing I forgot to mention I prefer to solve problems with standard tools than specialized scripts that need to be maintained. I totally agree. But the FAT32-user limitation is built into GNOME, so that's not going away. Besides, the script's two lines. That is easily solved with the mount options gid and uid. Good luck to you Thanks to the guy who said check xinitrc.d! I'll give that a shot. For the curious, the per-user mount is a shared FAT32 partition, which contains Documents and Desktop folders for all users. It has to be remounted per-user to work well under GNOME. -- Always there remain portions of our heart into which no one is able to enter, invite them as we may. mei-mei.gres...@greshko.com http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=cCSz_koUhSg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On 08/18/2009 01:18 PM, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote: Jud Craft wrote: I would like to run a script at login, but before gnome-panel and nautilus-desktop are launched (after gnome-session is okay, of course). Is there a place in the login/startup process that I can do this? With Gnome's Startup Applications, a script is not guaranteed to be executed before the rest of the desktop. You can try putting it in .xsession or .Xclients in your home directory. Mikkel I did try but to no avail. Every page on Google from a gdm x session startup search claims that GDM does not execute the classic X user session scripts unless you specifically select Custom... as your session type rather than GNOME or KDE. And in that case, you are responsible for launching the window manager/desktop yourself. So X session scripts are a no-go. Just have to poke around some more, I guess. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
On 08/21/2009 12:22 AM, Jud Craft wrote: So X session scripts are a no-go. Just have to poke around some more, I guess. From the GNOME.org wiki: http://live.gnome.org/SessionManagement/NewGnomeSession Mentions the new startup paradigm, where you specify a phase (Initialization, WindowManager, Desktop, etc) for the application to be executed in. But priorities have not yet been implemented (can't control the order within the phase), and even setting my mounting script to Initialization doesn't make it work before Nautilus notices my XDG folders aren't there. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. Have you considered using autofs for this? The automount will only happen when directory is accessed. So, something like this should work In auto.master /misc /etc/auto.misc In /etc/auto.misc Desktop -fstype=auto :/dev/sdc2 (or whatever you need) And in your home directory make Desktop a symbolic link to /misc/Desktop. There are probably better ways to construct this with autofsbut I'm not giving it too much thought I've also read where pam can be used for what you want signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
GNOME startup, -before- desktop
I would like to run a script at login, but before gnome-panel and nautilus-desktop are launched (after gnome-session is okay, of course). Is there a place in the login/startup process that I can do this? With Gnome's Startup Applications, a script is not guaranteed to be executed before the rest of the desktop. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
2009/8/18 Jud Craft craft...@gmail.com: I would like to run a script at login, but before gnome-panel and nautilus-desktop are launched (after gnome-session is okay, of course). Is there a place in the login/startup process that I can do this? With Gnome's Startup Applications, a script is not guaranteed to be executed before the rest of the desktop. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines What is the script going to do and what is it dependent on? -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
It automatically mounts a drive that contains my Desktop directory. Hence, I need it to work before nautilus does. It specifically is a per-user mount, so I can't have it globally automount at computer startup. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Mike Martinredt...@googlemail.com wrote: 2009/8/18 Jud Craft craft...@gmail.com: I would like to run a script at login, but before gnome-panel and nautilus-desktop are launched (after gnome-session is okay, of course). Is there a place in the login/startup process that I can do this? With Gnome's Startup Applications, a script is not guaranteed to be executed before the rest of the desktop. -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines What is the script going to do and what is it dependent on? -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: GNOME startup, -before- desktop
Jud Craft wrote: I would like to run a script at login, but before gnome-panel and nautilus-desktop are launched (after gnome-session is okay, of course). Is there a place in the login/startup process that I can do this? With Gnome's Startup Applications, a script is not guaranteed to be executed before the rest of the desktop. You can try putting it in .xsession or .Xclients in your home directory. Mikkel -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
