Re: [Finale] Re: was WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 09/06/27(土), at 19:28, David W. Fenton wrote: Er, what? I select text without using the mouse all the time. The SHIFT key plus any keys that move the cursor select text. I use Shift+Opt+Arrow keys to select a word. Opt+Arrow jumps per word, And Cmd+Arrow jumps to the beginning/end of a line. I hate mouse. Windows GUI guideline does (did) have a section explaining Windows has to be operated without mouse, but not many programmers care for that anymore. I am a proud Mac user, by the way :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
--- On Sat, 6/27/09, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > Was it general public or touch-typists? I'm gonna guess > general public, which > would make a huge difference. If you have to look, I'd > guess mouse is faster. > Having to look is what slows me down when I work with a mouse - if I'm doing something that I can just use the keyboard for, I don't look at the screen, just type, and it's much faster. -- Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti So far tranquillo ogni turbato core, Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 27 Jun 2009 at 19:32, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > On Sat, June 27, 2009 7:25 pm, David W. Fenton wrote: > > All I know is what the researchers report, that overall, mousing is > > faster than keyboard. I don't know exactly how they tested, but the > > results have stood up over many years of assault from those who > > didn't believe them. > > Was it general public or touch-typists? I'm gonna guess general public, which > would make a huge difference. If you have to look, I'd guess mouse is faster. I would assume that they tested reasonable users. I don't know the details of the study design, but Apple and Microsoft have both replicated it repeatedly. I would think both companies have very smart people working for them who know how to design scientifically valid studies, and thus think it's ridiculous to raise trivial objections like the idea that they just didn't test people who know the keyboard shortcuts. This isn't news. I'm surprised people in this forum treat this as though it's new information. It's been decades since the first Apple research showed this, and it's been replicated repeatedly. The conclusion completely contradicts my perception of my interaction with the PC, but that isn't what the research was testing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
On Sat, June 27, 2009 7:25 pm, David W. Fenton wrote: > All I know is what the researchers report, that overall, mousing is > faster than keyboard. I don't know exactly how they tested, but the > results have stood up over many years of assault from those who > didn't believe them. Was it general public or touch-typists? I'm gonna guess general public, which would make a huge difference. If you have to look, I'd guess mouse is faster. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: was WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 27 Jun 2009 at 0:06, John Howell wrote: > To change text formatting in Word, you > first have to select the text you want to change, right? That's a > double click (or more than one, or a sweep, but still it's done with > the mouse). After that, sure, I know the usual keyboard shortcuts in > Word and use them all the time, but you can't get completely away > from the mouse. Er, what? I select text without using the mouse all the time. The SHIFT key plus any keys that move the cursor select text. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 27 Jun 2009 at 7:54, Phil Daley wrote: > I expect the users who were tested were not that familiar with the keyboard > shortcuts. What an incredibly stupid response. > It's obviously faster to make a few keystrokes that navigating a set of > menus with a mouse. You really think that Apple and Microsoft didn't control for user experience? This is OLD research. It has been replicated REPEATEDLY. I don't like the conclusion as it seems counterintuitive, but it is what is it is. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 26 Jun 2009 at 22:16, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Jun 26, 2009, at 9:16 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > On 26 Jun 2009 at 21:00, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > > > >> I have several friends that are graphic designers, and I'm in awe of > >> watching them work in Photoshop or Illustrator without having to > >> use the > >> mouse at all. When I asked about it, they told me their > >> productivity would > >> shrink by 3/4 if they didn't have the keyboard shortcuts. > > > > And yet, the actual research on this subject completely contradicts > > that user perception. That is, Apple and Microsoft's usability labs > > have run the tests many times and mousing is faster than keyboarding. > > > > It's counterintuitive to me, but them's the facts. > > Yeah, but mousing is not faster when you start going into menus three > layers deep, and have to aim and click a little button. A single, or > even two or three, keystrokes is faster by far. Plus, the more you > use a certain keystroke, the faster you get at it. Mousing speed > reaches its upper limit quickly. I would assume (though I can't say for sure) that such a scenario would have been part of the test suite. > It's made up for, though, by the mouse's ability to pick out an item > among hundreds on a screen, and click-and-hold or click-and-drag, > plus all other goodies a mouse GUI brings. THAT stuff is very slow > with keystrokes, which may have skewed the results. > > Let's say that sometimes a mouse is faster, and sometimes the > keystroke is faster. Maybe a mouse is faster ON AVERAGE, but I bet an > experienced user using their own choices can beat the control groups > handily. All I know is what the researchers report, that overall, mousing is faster than keyboard. I don't know exactly how they tested, but the results have stood up over many years of assault from those who didn't believe them. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: was WHAT Sibelius can't do
On 27 Jun 2009 at 0:33, John Howell wrote: > how > many keystrokes would it take to more the cursor in the first place > without using the mouse at all? You underrate the value of accuracy. The mouse is great for selecting large objects, and for selecting multiple objects (with a click/drag). But for accuracy of text selection, nothing beats the SHIFT key and the cursor movement keys. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: was WHAT Sibelius can't do
Am 27.06.2009 um 06:37 schrieb Frank Prain: John, you can use the similar combinations to move your cursor around as well. Just don't use the Shift, as that does the selecting of the text. eg Ctrl-Arrow will move the cursor a word at a time. I just hold my thumb on the right Ctrl key and use my little finger on the left or right arrow key. After a while it becomes second nature, which helps to explain my frustration when using a Mac. On the Mac, there are exactly the same possibilities: To move the cursor to the next/previous word, hold down the Alt/Option key. To move the cursor to the start/end of the line, hold down the Command key. There are more. Just try. And don't forget the home, end, page up and page down keys. With and without modifier keys. ;-) Gerhard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] cut and paste clip file problem
Don't use a clip file. You can just copy and paste from one document to another. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY On 27 Jun 2009, at 3:25 PM, Martin Banner wrote: Using Finale 2008 on a Mac... I want to create a clip file from one document and paste it into a new document. Here's what I used to do in Finale 2003a that always worked: 1. highlight the violin 1 part, hold down option key, go to edit menu and click on copy to clip file, to create a clip file of this part, name the clip file and save it to desktop. 2. open new file, highlight the new empty stave where I want to copy the clip file to, hold down option key, go to edit menu, click on paste clip file In 2008, when I go to paste the original file's music into the new file empty staff, I don't get anything to appear. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] cut and paste clip file problem
Using Finale 2008 on a Mac... I want to create a clip file from one document and paste it into a new document. Here's what I used to do in Finale 2003a that always worked: 1. highlight the violin 1 part, hold down option key, go to edit menu and click on copy to clip file, to create a clip file of this part, name the clip file and save it to desktop. 2. open new file, highlight the new empty stave where I want to copy the clip file to, hold down option key, go to edit menu, click on paste clip file In 2008, when I go to paste the original file's music into the new file empty staff, I don't get anything to appear. What am I doing wrong? Thanks, Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] finale 2008 garritan sound/smart synth setup question
On 27 Jun 2009, at 2:22 PM, Martin Banner wrote: In Finale 2008 on my Mac, I just created a new file and have begun inputting notes. I just realized, after playing back the file, that I neglected during the setup procedure to pull down to the Garritan sounds (instead I ended up with smart synth sounds, or whatever they're called). Is there some easy way I can change this so that the playback is with the Garritan sounds? No easy way -- you have to manually load the Garritan Instruments one by one. If you are only using a few instruments it's no big deal, but if we are talking full orchestra it can be extremely time-consuming. Or do I have to create a whole new file and remember to pull down to the Garritan tab when choosing instruments? That would certainly be faster if your score contains a lot of instruments. If you're not too far along, you can probably copy and paste the notes from your old file into the new one. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] finale 2008 garritan sound/smart synth setup question
In Finale 2008 on my Mac, I just created a new file and have begun inputting notes. I just realized, after playing back the file, that I neglected during the setup procedure to pull down to the Garritan sounds (instead I ended up with smart synth sounds, or whatever they're called). Is there some easy way I can change this so that the playback is with the Garritan sounds? Or do I have to create a whole new file and remember to pull down to the Garritan tab when choosing instruments? Thanks, Martin ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
It's funny you should mention that - I only ever use the left shift key, even when the other key to be pressed is under that hand. Rather like double-stopping a violin :) Adam Golding wrote: exactly-keyboard shortcuts have a steeper learning curve-pianists are pretty good with them, though :p 2009/6/27 Phil Daley I expect the users who were tested were not that familiar with the keyboard shortcuts. It's obviously faster to make a few keystrokes that navigating a set of menus with a mouse. At 6/26/2009 09:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 27 Jun 2009 at 2:20, Owain Sutton wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: On 26 Jun 2009 at 21:00, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I have several friends that are graphic designers, and I'm in awe of watching them work in Photoshop or Illustrator without having to use the mouse at all. When I asked about it, they told me their productivity would shrink by 3/4 if they didn't have the keyboard shortcuts. And yet, the actual research on this subject completely contradicts that user perception. That is, Apple and Microsoft's usability labs have run the tests many times and mousing is faster than keyboarding. It's counterintuitive to me, but them's the facts. And the tests run by third parties? I don't know. While one could say that Apple had an agenda, MS came late to that ballgame. Why would Apple and Microsoft have an incentive to misrepresent the research? What good would it do them to design their products to be less useful than they could be? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
At 7:50 AM +1000 6/26/09, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Can Sibelius now have bar numbers centred, automatically underneath each bar of the lowest staff in the piece? Couldn't before. In a word, yes, in Sibelius 5 at least. Bar numbers were a mess in Sibelius 4, only because the adjustments and choices were spread over 3 or 4 different places. Not in 5, and I assume not in 6 either. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
At 2:25 AM +0200 6/26/09, shirling & neueweise wrote: It's not even on Sibelius' schedule to implement. sibelius policy is to let you know "this isn't needed by many users, we won't implement it." but with a smile, direct from the CEOs. I've heard about that, but I believe it is ancient history and has been for years. At present there is a Senior Product Manager on the Sibelius List (the writer of the Reference Manual, in fact), who gives clear and honest answers regarding potential future upgrades, and will say whether something is on their list or not, and will sometimes give the technical reasons, but will not give such stupid answers. As I said, ancient history. Shame MakeMusic has no interest in that kind of communication with their users. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
exactly-keyboard shortcuts have a steeper learning curve-pianists are pretty good with them, though :p 2009/6/27 Phil Daley > I expect the users who were tested were not that familiar with the keyboard > shortcuts. > > It's obviously faster to make a few keystrokes that navigating a set of > menus with a mouse. > > At 6/26/2009 09:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > >On 27 Jun 2009 at 2:20, Owain Sutton wrote: > > > >> David W. Fenton wrote: > >> > On 26 Jun 2009 at 21:00, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > >> > > >> >> I have several friends that are graphic designers, and I'm in awe of > >> >> watching them work in Photoshop or Illustrator without having to use > the > >> >> mouse at all. When I asked about it, they told me their productivity > would > >> >> shrink by 3/4 if they didn't have the keyboard shortcuts. > >> > > >> > And yet, the actual research on this subject completely contradicts > >> > that user perception. That is, Apple and Microsoft's usability labs > >> > have run the tests many times and mousing is faster than keyboarding. > >> > > >> > It's counterintuitive to me, but them's the facts. > >> > >> And the tests run by third parties? > > > >I don't know. While one could say that Apple had an agenda, MS came > >late to that ballgame. > > > >Why would Apple and Microsoft have an incentive to misrepresent the > >research? What good would it do them to design their products to be > >less useful than they could be? > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: WHAT Sibelius can't do
I expect the users who were tested were not that familiar with the keyboard shortcuts. It's obviously faster to make a few keystrokes that navigating a set of menus with a mouse. At 6/26/2009 09:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >On 27 Jun 2009 at 2:20, Owain Sutton wrote: > >> David W. Fenton wrote: >> > On 26 Jun 2009 at 21:00, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: >> > >> >> I have several friends that are graphic designers, and I'm in awe of >> >> watching them work in Photoshop or Illustrator without having to use the >> >> mouse at all. When I asked about it, they told me their productivity would >> >> shrink by 3/4 if they didn't have the keyboard shortcuts. >> > >> > And yet, the actual research on this subject completely contradicts >> > that user perception. That is, Apple and Microsoft's usability labs >> > have run the tests many times and mousing is faster than keyboarding. >> > >> > It's counterintuitive to me, but them's the facts. >> >> And the tests run by third parties? > >I don't know. While one could say that Apple had an agenda, MS came >late to that ballgame. > >Why would Apple and Microsoft have an incentive to misrepresent the >research? What good would it do them to design their products to be >less useful than they could be? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
