Re: [Finale] Page layout for Marimba music
At 4:11 PM -0400 3/23/10, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 23, 2010, at 12:56 PM, John Howell wrote: For questions like this I turn to "How to Write for Percussion" by Samuel Z Solomon. He ... points out that it's important to know the instrument you're writing for (ALWAYS a good idea!), since they vary from 4-octave to 5-octave instruments. He gives the range of a 4-octave instrument as small c (C3) to c (C7). For the 5-octave instrument, Great C (C2) to c (C7). There is also a fairly rare bass marima with a 2-octave range, Great C (C2) to middle C (C4). This advice is out of date. Nowadays only an old, cheap, or student marimba has 4 octaves. The standard professional instrument in the late twentieth century extended downward an additional minor third to A. I can't argue with that, Andrew, except to note that along with the low A bari sax and the low C bass clarinet, which can also be considered "standard" in some circles, there are an awful lot of "old, cheap, or student instruments" out there being used daily. If you're writing for schools, you have to keep that in mind. Not everyone has the very latest and greatest thing, just as not everyone has the latest and greatest computers or software. I never heard of a five octave marimba until about ten years ago, but they are now quite common and becoming more so; their advent seems to have driven the bass marimba into extinction--I haven't seen one in ages, and there's certainly no need for one if it doesn't descend below the regular marimba range. Yes, Solomon did note that the 4-octave marimba was fading away and the 5-octave was slowly gaining ground. But without being able to check his copyright date at the moment, I think he was trying to cover a broad range and not just the most up to date professional instruments. I've seen enough of our percussion ensemble to realize that there are several different models; one does not throw away an expensive instrument which may be obsolescent, but never obsolete! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Page layout for Marimba music
On Mar 23, 2010, at 12:56 PM, John Howell wrote: For questions like this I turn to "How to Write for Percussion" by Samuel Z Solomon. He ... points out that it's important to know the instrument you're writing for (ALWAYS a good idea!), since they vary from 4-octave to 5-octave instruments. He gives the range of a 4-octave instrument as small c (C3) to c (C7). For the 5-octave instrument, Great C (C2) to c (C7). There is also a fairly rare bass marima with a 2-octave range, Great C (C2) to middle C (C4). This advice is out of date. Nowadays only an old, cheap, or student marimba has 4 octaves. The standard professional instrument in the late twentieth century extended downward an additional minor third to A. I never heard of a five octave marimba until about ten years ago, but they are now quite common and becoming more so; their advent seems to have driven the bass marimba into extinction--I haven't seen one in ages, and there's certainly no need for one if it doesn't descend below the regular marimba range. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")
On 23 Mar 2010 at 13:30, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: > About a year ago, I showed a copy of one of my Graupner editions to > my former supervisior (Ph.D. in musicology from Columbia)-- where I > duplicated the autograph score (i.e. no written out repeats of the "A" > section, and Da Capos under each section). He has no idea how to read the > movement, and asked me how it would be performed. He is very familiar with > early music too (his dissertation was on Zerlino). After this, when I > suggested to my publisher that maybe we should write out all the "A" > sections, he insisted early music performers would know how to perform the > music, and the instrumental parts could be modified as ordered (i.e to > write everything out) if requested. If these were standard da capo arias (or similar forms), I would say it should be no issue with not writing out the repeats. However, the exception would be that care should be paid to the continuo player's part, since you want to avoid forcing the continuo player to have to flip back several pages for the repeat. When I played continuo for Handel's Alcina a few years ago, I had to put little post-it flags for some of those repeats, in order to be able to flip back in time (I was playing from a photocopy of my vocal score, and made copies of some of the repeats myself). For the orchestral players, it's not going to be much of an issue, as long as you indent each piece sufficiently, or start each one on a new page (depending on the generosity of the part layouts). For the conductor, well, she has a hand free to turn back, though there's still the issue of finding the point to go back to. It's hard to justify writing out the repeat in the full score, though. On the other hand, Baroque orchestral pieces aren't Mahler symphonies, so maybe a short score for the repeat would suffice (though I've never seen this in any performing edition, I might do it if preparing a conductor's score for one of the groups I'm playing with). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")
Hi alI: About a year ago, I showed a copy of one of my Graupner editions to my former supervisior (Ph.D. in musicology from Columbia)-- where I duplicated the autograph score (i.e. no written out repeats of the "A" section, and Da Capos under each section). He has no idea how to read the movement, and asked me how it would be performed. He is very familiar with early music too (his dissertation was on Zerlino). After this, when I suggested to my publisher that maybe we should write out all the "A" sections, he insisted early music performers would know how to perform the music, and the instrumental parts could be modified as ordered (i.e to write everything out) if requested. Thanks, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")
On 23 Mar 2010 at 6:34, dhbailey wrote: > dc wrote: > > What's the clearest way to write an |:A:|BACA piece if I don't write out > > in full the three A sections (to avoid page turns). The original simply > > has "Da Capo" at the end of B and C, and a fermata on the last note of A. > > People with experience in the music of the period you're > working from will understand, others might be confused, This will include a fair portion of the early music folks, including me. When I was writing my posts on repeats yesterday I had in my head "except the rondeau, which I can't wrap my head around without it being written out." For what it's worth, last semester my viol consort had two Purcell rondeaus in its repertory and the editions we used wrote them all out. This made it somewhat harder to rehearse, as the players did not notice immediately that it was a verbatim repeat, but we quickly got past that. Actually, the layout in both cases was: |:A:|BAC ...with da capo at the end of the C and FINE at the end of the A, raising the question in early rehearsals of whether the last A was repeated. > but > I agree that you don't need to write out the A section each > time it recurs. I would definitely agree with this, at least as ABAC, and if there's room without page turns, the final A. > I'd use the letters A, B, C as the rehearsal markings at the > start of each section. > > Then I'd write the A section with the repeat, then the B > section followed by D.C. senza replice, then the C section > with D.C. al Fine (the Fine being marked at the end of the A > section.) > > I'd also include a text box above the first staff with > something like: > > The form of this movement is: A A B A C A > > in order to make the form perfectly clear. Interestingly enough, this is precisely the way my consort normally marks up our parts/scores when we have a roundeau that is not written out. And it's still confusing. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Page layout for Marimba music
At 12:35 PM -0300 3/23/10, Adam Taylor wrote: Never having played the marimba (due to being a clarinettist), or having had access to a marimba player in the last ten years, I am now faced with printing a piece to send to a marimbist in the US. I'm currently unsure of how they prefer their music to be laid out for solo work. The piece is nine pages long including title and directions. Any advice? For questions like this I turn to "How to Write for Percussion" by Samuel Z Solomon. He says: "Marimba, vibraphone, and chimes sound as written. ... Marimba is notated in treble or bass clef or on a grand staff." He also points out that it's important to know the instrument you're writing for (ALWAYS a good idea!), since they vary from 4-octave to 5-octave instruments. He gives the range of a 4-octave instrument as small c (C3) to c (C7). For the 5-octave instrument, Great C (C2) to c (C7). There is also a fairly rare bass marima with a 2-octave range, Great C (C2) to middle C (C4). If that isn't what you were asking, I'm afraid I can't figure it out. It would be laid out like any other music, with careful attention given to page turns. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Page layout for Marimba music
Never having played the marimba (due to being a clarinettist), or having had access to a marimba player in the last ten years, I am now faced with printing a piece to send to a marimbist in the US. I'm currently unsure of how they prefer their music to be laid out for solo work. The piece is nine pages long including title and directions. Any advice? Thanks, Adam ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")
At 9:13 AM +0100 3/23/10, dc wrote: What's the clearest way to write an |:A:|BACA piece if I don't write out in full the three A sections (to avoid page turns). The original simply has "Da Capo" at the end of B and C, and a fermata on the last note of A. Thanks, Dennis Ah!! The famous French Baroque Rondeau form, perfectly clear if you know the secret, perfectly confusing if you don't!!! (And by the time Mozart adopted it as the Rondo form, he was writing everything out without repeats.) When I edited a Rameau rondeau (and I'm making up these bar numbers), I followed the baroque notational layout but added instructions: the A section (without repeat marks in this case); at the end of the A section a note "To 64 2x" (which was the C section); at the end of both the B and C sections a "da capo" (actually I wrote in the 1st bar of the da capo. so it was a da segno to bar 2, as in the original); and the fermata at the end of the A section. I could have used a Coda sign at the end of the A section and the beginning of the C section but I still would have had to include a text instruction. The fact is that our modern system of repeat marks and signs CANNOT cover every historical eventuality. The "ne plus ultra" of confusing repeat marks and overlapping repeat schemes is found in the 13th and 14th century "Estampies" in several French, Italian, and English manuscripts. These dance pieces are constructed of a number of repeated sections, each with an "ouvert" and "clos" ending (our 1st & 2nd endings on a half cadence and a full cadence). But the BEGINNING of each section is new, while after each new beginning the balance of each section repeats parts of previous sections. And since velum was expensive and valuable, they saved as much space on the page as possible, using 4 to 6 different repeat marks to lead the eye through the underbrush and complete each section. (Our fermata and our da segno sign are just two of those signs that have made it into modern notation.) It's perfectly clear once you figure it out, but perfectly obscure if you don't understand what they were doing! And the only comparable modern notation I've ever played was a Strauss Waltz (or perhaps Polka), with multiple overlapping repeats to keep track of. Another example of late Medieval/early renaissance roadmaps are the many secular songs written to poetry in rondeau form. (And yes, it was a poetic form long before it became a musical form.) These were always laid out in 2 musical sections (although the dividing point between the A and B sections was not always clear), and usually only the first verses of the text were underlaid, but the form of the piece was complex and required repetitions of the A and B sections, sometimes in order, sometimes not, in a very particular scheme, and if you don't understand the form you can't perform the chanson as it was intended. Fortunately, since this repeat scheme is text-driven, modern editions always number the verses, so the singers can follow those numbers, but instrumentalists playing the chanson as an instrumental piece will tend to ignore these hints, and of course if they are playing from facsimiles of the original manuscript there ARE no hints. I used overlapping repeats in one modern vocal arrangement. Once! Never again!!! I was rushed and had to have it ready for an impending rehearsal (and this was in the days of strictly hand copying, and I didn't want to have to letter in all the repeated lyrics!), and the song itself was constructed of repeated sections. (Something about "Man In Motion" from some movie.) But I wasted much more time in rehearsal than I saved in preparing the manuscript, and learned my lesson! So our repeat schemes are not just clearly notated in one and only one way, but they are culturally influenced by what is/was expected. Even the seemingly simple question of whether to observe repeats in da capos (in minuets and marches in particular) is never clearcut. Playing a minuet in concert? Sure, omit the repeats. Playing for dancing? Different answer, and very likely a repeat scheme that extends the music to a more desirable length. Dennis, the one place I can think of where compound endings may still be used regularly is in military marches that would be published in "quickstep" size suitable for using in lyres while marching. Page space was always at a premium, and even one additional bar could make a difference, so a good many shortcuts had to be used. And we still have marching bands and they still use those small-format parts, so the engraver still has to use shortcuts that may be less than perfectly clear. All the best, John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu
Re: [Finale] repeats and endings
Mike McGowan wrote: Many of the old marches (certainly the ragtime marches) used an unusual repeat system: the first strain has a first ending, second ending which moves to the 2nd strain, and a fine' ending. After the third strain, one will D.S. back to the first strain and take the fine' ending. Although this seems simple, three endings after the first strain blew my little community college group away for the first few rehearsals. Consequently, modern editions of these old marches will "write out" the last return to A instead of a D.S. (I think somebody mentioned doing this in an earlier posting.) The other ending setup that blows away members of my otherwise quite competent community band is when there is a 1st ending without a repeat, and a 2nd ending which is most often the Fine ending. People have gotten so used to the fact that most 1st endings have repeats at the end of them that they've come to equate the 1st ending bracket with the repeat and don't even bother to look for the repeat sign at the end of the ending. Even after I've explained it a couple of times it takes a couple of broken run-throughs before everybody gets the idea. And that's compounded when the 1st ending is actually a 1st and 2nd ending combined and the 3rd ending is the Fine ending because the final strain is supposed to be played twice with a D.S. both times. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] repeats and endings
Many of the old marches (certainly the ragtime marches) used an unusual repeat system: the first strain has a first ending, second ending which moves to the 2nd strain, and a fine' ending. After the third strain, one will D.S. back to the first strain and take the fine' ending. Although this seems simple, three endings after the first strain blew my little community college group away for the first few rehearsals. Consequently, modern editions of these old marches will "write out" the last return to A instead of a D.S. (I think somebody mentioned doing this in an earlier posting.) My two cents McGowan -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of John Howell Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 5:53 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] repeats and endings At 9:33 PM +0100 3/22/10, dc wrote: >I have a piece with three endings, where 1 & 3 are identical. Is it >kosher to put them both under the same bracket, say, with > >1. & 3. > >and then > >2. > >Thanks, > >Dennis I would say not, unless what follows 3 is exactly what follows 1. The purpose of multiple endings is not only to accommodate open and closed endings but to send you on your way to the next section or back to a repeat mark. When sightreading there is more potential confusion in multiple endings if you actually have to READ what they say instead of just advancing to the next one in line. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats and endings
At 9:33 PM +0100 3/22/10, dc wrote: I have a piece with three endings, where 1 & 3 are identical. Is it kosher to put them both under the same bracket, say, with 1. & 3. and then 2. Thanks, Dennis I would say not, unless what follows 3 is exactly what follows 1. The purpose of multiple endings is not only to accommodate open and closed endings but to send you on your way to the next section or back to a repeat mark. When sightreading there is more potential confusion in multiple endings if you actually have to READ what they say instead of just advancing to the next one in line. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: OT Time Signatures in MS Word documents
Thanks Howard, The Bach fonts are quick and easy to use (and free). Michael Lawlor From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: [Finale] OT Time Signatures in MS Word documents To: Message-ID: <4ba64c66.3090...@online.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed On 21.03.2010 16:54, Michael Lawlor wrote: Does anyone have any suggestions on methods for typing/inserting time signatures in WORD documents, ideally so that the numbers are vertically in line? Michael Lawlor You might want to try Bach Font: www.mu.qub.ac.uk/tomita/bachfont/index.htm -- Howard Weiner h.wei...@online.de http://howard-weiner.de/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")
dc wrote: What's the clearest way to write an |:A:|BACA piece if I don't write out in full the three A sections (to avoid page turns). The original simply has "Da Capo" at the end of B and C, and a fermata on the last note of A. People with experience in the music of the period you're working from will understand, others might be confused, but I agree that you don't need to write out the A section each time it recurs. I'd use the letters A, B, C as the rehearsal markings at the start of each section. Then I'd write the A section with the repeat, then the B section followed by D.C. senza replice, then the C section with D.C. al Fine (the Fine being marked at the end of the A section.) I'd also include a text box above the first staff with something like: The form of this movement is: A A B A C A in order to make the form perfectly clear. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats and endings
David W. Fenton wrote: On 22 Mar 2010 at 17:11, dhbailey wrote: Perhaps if you were to explain more fully the road map for the work in question, we could offer better insight to help you make the music the clearest. Maybe it's my early music background, but for one particular situation, I see no issue with it, and that's an ABA where the 2nd ending starts the B section, and 1st ending is the FINE for the repeat of the A section. I just don't see how that's confusing at all. Then again, it's a very familiar roadmap for music before 1800. I've seen that ending setup also, but I've never seen the number 3 in the 1st ending in that situation. I've only seen it with 1st ending which also included the Fine indicator, 2nd ending which lead into the B section, and then D.C. al Fine at the end of the B section. Never a 3 in the 1st ending, at least in the editions I've seen. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeats and endings
I do see the notation (1,3) in choral music. Not often, and maybe it's dependent on the publishing house. While it's reasonably clear, for the environment of a church choir setting, where sight-reading can unfortunately become the norm, I find this confusing. I once had to read through an arrangement that used every single type of repeat you could think of in the same piece, with overlapping repeat sections (!!!). It was clearly an amateur "engraving" and not a publishing house engraving, but it was incredibly difficult to figure out. Every rehearsal we spent at least five to ten minutes going over the "road map" - total waste of time. I finally got fed up and re-engraved it as a straight-through piece, with no repeats. It's amazing what you can do with cut and paste these days. :-) Noel Stoutenburg wrote: > David W. Fenton wrote: > > > > Maybe it's my early music background, but for one particular > > situation, I see no issue with it, and that's an ABA where the 2nd > > ending starts the B section, and 1st ending is the FINE for the > > repeat of the A section. I just don't see how that's confusing at > > all. Then again, it's a very familiar roadmap for music before 1800. > > I must admit that this was my first reaction as well, but upon further > reflection I realized that I have seldom, if ever, seen ending signs and > brackets used in this idiom. More commonly I have seen the first A > section, and the B section written out in full, with no repeat brackets, > but with a DC or DS at the end of the B section, and the end of the > composition after the reprise of the A section indicated by either a > fermata, or the word "fine". > > ns > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
