Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
On 5 Nov 2010 at 23:57, Raymond Horton wrote: > Third, of _course_ the PD editions do not reflect the latest in > research, but to say that "This doesn't really mean anything about > what Mahler originally wrote" is really going off the deep end with > this. Even the worst, bowdlerized 19th century publications reflect > _something_ about what the composer wrote! Or, if you meant "This > doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote > [concerning horn keys]" I would still have to say that, for our > purposes on this list, this evidence stands until other evidence is > brought forward. These are not (necessarily) authoritative editions, so you can't use them as evidence for what Mahler originally wrote. You only know what was published. I don't know the history of Mahler editions, so it could very well be that the early editions accurately reflected his intentions. But we certainly know that some composers like Bruckner had their works drastically bowdlerized in their first publications. I'm not implying the same kind of interference in Mahler's publications as was the case from the brothers Schalk in Bruckner's case, but the point is you can't use evidence about which you don't know the origins or reliability in a case about what the composer would have intended. All you can say is what the scores have in them. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
David Fenton wrote: "This doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote, as it's not necessarily the case that the editions that are in the public domain are going to be the best representations of the composer's original scoring." First off, I believe my original disclaimer concerning the amount of my research - ten minutes - put into the answer of this question was adequate. Second, I'll lay some bets that the horn transpositions in the symphonies were not were not changed. If the publisher had been changing Mahler's earlier horn parts in different keys into horn in F, then it would be unlikely that Mahler's separate F and Bb trumpet parts, or the trumpet parts that switch back and forth between F and Bb, would have been left alone, since the long soprano F trumpet was rapidly becoming just as obsolete as any writing in horn for other keys. Third, of _course_ the PD editions do not reflect the latest in research, but to say that "This doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote" is really going off the deep end with this. Even the worst, bowdlerized 19th century publications reflect _something_ about what the composer wrote! Or, if you meant "This doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote [concerning horn keys]" I would still have to say that, for our purposes on this list, this evidence stands until other evidence is brought forward. I'll still nominate Mahler symphonies as an excellent example until of consistent writing for F horn. Raymond Horton On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 4:25 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 12:46, Raymond Horton wrote: > > > a quick look through all the Mahler horn parts on > > IMSLP.org found nothing but F horn > > This doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote, > as it's not necessarily the case that the editions that are in the > public domain are going to be the best representations of the > composer's original scoring. > > In general, the public domain scores available on IMSLP that are not > newly edited from decent sources are not to be trusted. They are > useful for what they are, but certainly not for setting textual > questions like this one. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
Thanks for your help. He figured it out. On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Richard Yates wrote: > I like Bullzip a lot. > > http://www.bullzip.com/products/pdf/info.php > > Richard Yates > > > -Original Message- > > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu > > [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:04 PM > > To: finale@shsu.edu > > Subject: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC > > > > What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to > > help a friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to > > get a 3rd party program but I'm hoping someone can recommend > > a good share- or freeware option. > > Thanks! > > Ryan > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
I like Bullzip a lot. http://www.bullzip.com/products/pdf/info.php Richard Yates > -Original Message- > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu > [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Ryan > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:04 PM > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC > > What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to > help a friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to > get a 3rd party program but I'm hoping someone can recommend > a good share- or freeware option. > Thanks! > Ryan > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
On 5 Nov 2010 at 14:54, Ryan wrote: > Sorry, should have clarified. He wants to create a PDF of a Finale > 2011 document. I don't have 2011, so I can't open the file and convert > it for him. I don't see why you think my answer doesn't apply. PDF995 and PDFCreator are still options for Finale. I create all my Finale PDFs with PDF995. I installs as a printer driver, and you print to that (PDFCreator works the same way). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
Sorry, should have clarified. He wants to create a PDF of a Finale 2011 document. I don't have 2011, so I can't open the file and convert it for him. On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 14:03, Ryan wrote: > > > What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to help a > > friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to get a 3rd party > > program but I'm hoping someone can recommend a good share- or freeware > > option. > > The answer depends on the source from which the PDF is going to be > created. > > For instance, if your friend has Office 2007 or 2010, PDF output is > included (though with early releases of 2007, you had to download it > and install it). > > I have used PDF995 for years, and also use PDFCreator (though the > latter I use because I can programatically control it from VBA in my > Access database applications -- it also works as a standard PDF > printer, though). > > I don't know if either of those options have any compatibility issues > with versions of Windows after WinXP, or if they run on 64-bit > Windows. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
On 11/5/2010 5:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 5 Nov 2010 at 14:03, Ryan wrote: What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to help a friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to get a 3rd party program but I'm hoping someone can recommend a good share- or freeware option. The answer depends on the source from which the PDF is going to be created. For instance, if your friend has Office 2007 or 2010, PDF output is included (though with early releases of 2007, you had to download it and install it). I have used PDF995 for years, and also use PDFCreator (though the latter I use because I can programatically control it from VBA in my Access database applications -- it also works as a standard PDF printer, though). I don't know if either of those options have any compatibility issues with versions of Windows after WinXP, or if they run on 64-bit Windows. On my 64-bit Win7 machine I use a program called "doPDF" which is freeware and can be downloaded from http://www.dopdf.com/ -- on the PC, with such a program, it installs as a printer-driver which Ryan's friend would choose as the printer from whichever program he's trying to create PDF output from. I realize most PC users would understand that, but I thought I would include it for Ryan's sake, since he's on a Mac. doPDF allows you to select the folder to save the PDF file into. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
On 5 Nov 2010 at 14:03, Ryan wrote: > What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to help a > friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to get a 3rd party > program but I'm hoping someone can recommend a good share- or freeware > option. The answer depends on the source from which the PDF is going to be created. For instance, if your friend has Office 2007 or 2010, PDF output is included (though with early releases of 2007, you had to download it and install it). I have used PDF995 for years, and also use PDFCreator (though the latter I use because I can programatically control it from VBA in my Access database applications -- it also works as a standard PDF printer, though). I don't know if either of those options have any compatibility issues with versions of Windows after WinXP, or if they run on 64-bit Windows. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
On 5 Nov 2010 at 12:46, Raymond Horton wrote: > a quick look through all the Mahler horn parts on > IMSLP.org found nothing but F horn This doesn't really mean anything about what Mahler originally wrote, as it's not necessarily the case that the editions that are in the public domain are going to be the best representations of the composer's original scoring. In general, the public domain scores available on IMSLP that are not newly edited from decent sources are not to be trusted. They are useful for what they are, but certainly not for setting textual questions like this one. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Converting to PDF on a PC
What's the best way to create a PDF file on a PC? Trying to help a friend, but I'm a Mac user. Looks like he'll have to get a 3rd party program but I'm hoping someone can recommend a good share- or freeware option. Thanks! Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
Guess we have to wait for Roger Norrington & Co to take up Brahms! ajr Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: > Ray - I'm really interested to see what your hornist friend has to share! > > Actually, Brahms DID prefer natural horn, and DID hear his works played on > valveless horns - repeatedly. Robert Pascall, (Vice-Chair of the New > Complete Brahms Edition) writes, "Brahms preferred the old valveless horn, > and could mark notes to be played stopped in case players were tempted to > take the easier way." And there's a wealth of performance history in > Brahms' presence to verify not only his preference but experience. > > I think I may have mentioned here in the past Brahms' preference for smaller > rather than larger orchestras; on the large-end of performance practice about > which we know some details, the Vienna Phil (Brahms' 'hometown' orch) had 78 > musicians in 1864, 100 by 1885 - and played each of Brahms' symphonies at > least four times during his lifetime. Brahms himself conducted a "festival" > performance of the second in Hamburg in 1878 with an orchestra of 113 but his > PREFERRED orchestral sound was a smaller one in which the winds wouldn't be > overwhelmed by the strings nor forced into doubling. A smaller group in > which the sound of his beloved natural horn could more easily dominate; > narrow-bore trombones wouldn't have to push to be declarative. And in all > cases in which he had an option, he chose small groups: for the premiere of > the 1st symphony in 1876, he went with the Karlsruhe: 49 players, natural > horns. And he also built a 'special' relationship with the Meiningen Court > Orchestra - 49 players, natural horns. There are occasions in which Brahms > was offered augmented string sections (in Meiningen, particularly) but > refused them, preferring the smaller configuration. > > Our lately departed Sir Charles Mackerras made a VERY compelling case for > adhering to Brahms' stated wishes in his wonderful recordings about a decade > ago 'in the style of the original Meiningen performances' with an > appropriately-sized Scottish Chamber Orchestra, natural horns included - as > well as scrupulous attention paid to interpretive details of performance > practice as Brahms noted throughout his lifetime, and in apparently > consistent fashion throughout his years. There's a wonderful audio > commentary Mackerras offers in interview form as a bonus disc in which he > explains the sourcing of his interpretation, and much more. Fascinatin' > stuff > > Les Marsden > (209) 966-6988 > Cell: (559) 708-6027 (Emergency only) > 7145 Snyder Creek Road > Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 > > Founding Music Director and Conductor, > The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra > Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! > > Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 > First Vice-President, The Mariposa County Arts Council, Inc. > Board Director, The Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County > > http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html > Marsden Marx Pages: http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og > - Original Message - > From: Raymond Horton > To: finale@shsu.edu > Cc: Steven Larsen > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!) > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Steven Larsen wrote: > > 4. Richard Wagner and Richard Strauss are the principal composers to > > promulgate the advancement of the horn (Brahms preferred the sound of the > > natural horn), > > > I asked a knowledgeable horn-playing friend about your later question (which > composers started writing for F horn all the time), and he promised me a > copy if an interesting article on Brahms horn writing, so I should have more > to add. I'll just say that I have been told that, even though Brahms wrote > parts that were playable on natural horn, he probably never heard tham > played on natural horn in his lifetime. He also wrote a book of etudes for > valved horn! > > > > > and it's interesting to track the changes in horn use and > > notation in their works. Strauss' ... > > > > > > Strauss began to almost always favor Horn in F, but often called for > > changes > > to other keys in the course of the work. The best summary of this > confusing > > practice is in Strauss' own words (or at least as translated by Theodore > > Front for Strauss' revision of Berlioz' "Treatise on Instrumentation", > > written in 1904 and reprinted by Kalmus in 1948): > > > > "Although horn players now use almost exclusively the horns in D, F, high > A > > and high B flat . . . it is nevertheless advisable to retain Richard > > Wagner's method of indicating the key of the horns according to the > changes > > of key in the music. It is true that horn players do not observe these > > different keys any more; but they are accustomed to transpose any key > > i
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
OK, I'll take your word and reference for that. My evidently incorrect statement didn't come from my hornist friend, it actually came from another horn player, one (now retired) who was somewhat less academic, about ten or fifteen years ago. As I said, I am promised an article on Brahms and horn, so we'll see what that says. Ray On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote: > Ray - I'm really interested to see what your hornist friend has to share! > > Actually, Brahms DID prefer natural horn, and DID hear his works played on > valveless horns - repeatedly... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
Ray - I'm really interested to see what your hornist friend has to share! Actually, Brahms DID prefer natural horn, and DID hear his works played on valveless horns - repeatedly. Robert Pascall, (Vice-Chair of the New Complete Brahms Edition) writes, "Brahms preferred the old valveless horn, and could mark notes to be played stopped in case players were tempted to take the easier way." And there's a wealth of performance history in Brahms' presence to verify not only his preference but experience. I think I may have mentioned here in the past Brahms' preference for smaller rather than larger orchestras; on the large-end of performance practice about which we know some details, the Vienna Phil (Brahms' 'hometown' orch) had 78 musicians in 1864, 100 by 1885 - and played each of Brahms' symphonies at least four times during his lifetime. Brahms himself conducted a "festival" performance of the second in Hamburg in 1878 with an orchestra of 113 but his PREFERRED orchestral sound was a smaller one in which the winds wouldn't be overwhelmed by the strings nor forced into doubling. A smaller group in which the sound of his beloved natural horn could more easily dominate; narrow-bore trombones wouldn't have to push to be declarative. And in all cases in which he had an option, he chose small groups: for the premiere of the 1st symphony in 1876, he went with the Karlsruhe: 49 players, natural horns. And he also built a 'special' relationship with the Meiningen Court Orchestra - 49 players, natural horns. There are occasions in which Brahms was offered augmented string sections (in Meiningen, particularly) but refused them, preferring the smaller configuration. Our lately departed Sir Charles Mackerras made a VERY compelling case for adhering to Brahms' stated wishes in his wonderful recordings about a decade ago 'in the style of the original Meiningen performances' with an appropriately-sized Scottish Chamber Orchestra, natural horns included - as well as scrupulous attention paid to interpretive details of performance practice as Brahms noted throughout his lifetime, and in apparently consistent fashion throughout his years. There's a wonderful audio commentary Mackerras offers in interview form as a bonus disc in which he explains the sourcing of his interpretation, and much more. Fascinatin' stuff Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 Cell: (559) 708-6027 (Emergency only) 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! Mariposa County Planning Commissioner, District 5 First Vice-President, The Mariposa County Arts Council, Inc. Board Director, The Economic Development Corporation of Mariposa County http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html Marsden Marx Pages: http://tinyurl.com/ygpj7og - Original Message - From: Raymond Horton To: finale@shsu.edu Cc: Steven Larsen Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!) On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Steven Larsen wrote: 4. Richard Wagner and Richard Strauss are the principal composers to > promulgate the advancement of the horn (Brahms preferred the sound of the > natural horn), I asked a knowledgeable horn-playing friend about your later question (which composers started writing for F horn all the time), and he promised me a copy if an interesting article on Brahms horn writing, so I should have more to add. I'll just say that I have been told that, even though Brahms wrote parts that were playable on natural horn, he probably never heard tham played on natural horn in his lifetime. He also wrote a book of etudes for valved horn! > and it's interesting to track the changes in horn use and > notation in their works. Strauss' ... > > Strauss began to almost always favor Horn in F, but often called for > changes > to other keys in the course of the work. The best summary of this confusing > practice is in Strauss' own words (or at least as translated by Theodore > Front for Strauss' revision of Berlioz' "Treatise on Instrumentation", > written in 1904 and reprinted by Kalmus in 1948): > > "Although horn players now use almost exclusively the horns in D, F, high A > and high B flat . . . it is nevertheless advisable to retain Richard > Wagner's method of indicating the key of the horns according to the changes > of key in the music. It is true that horn players do not observe these > different keys any more; but they are accustomed to transpose any key > instantly into the key of the horn they are using, and they much prefer > this > method to being forced to read all the time the horn in F, ..." (p. 279) > > At some point in the 20th century, most composers settled on the > now-standard Horn in F and stopped the practice of "changing horns" in the > parts
Re: [Finale] RE: OT: Historical Horn Notation Question (long!)
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Steven Larsen wrote: 4. Richard Wagner and Richard Strauss are the principal composers to > promulgate the advancement of the horn (Brahms preferred the sound of the > natural horn), I asked a knowledgeable horn-playing friend about your later question (which composers started writing for F horn all the time), and he promised me a copy if an interesting article on Brahms horn writing, so I should have more to add. I'll just say that I have been told that, even though Brahms wrote parts that were playable on natural horn, he probably never heard tham played on natural horn in his lifetime. He also wrote a book of etudes for valved horn! > and it's interesting to track the changes in horn use and > notation in their works. Strauss' ... > > Strauss began to almost always favor Horn in F, but often called for > changes > to other keys in the course of the work. The best summary of this confusing > practice is in Strauss' own words (or at least as translated by Theodore > Front for Strauss' revision of Berlioz' "Treatise on Instrumentation", > written in 1904 and reprinted by Kalmus in 1948): > > "Although horn players now use almost exclusively the horns in D, F, high A > and high B flat . . . it is nevertheless advisable to retain Richard > Wagner's method of indicating the key of the horns according to the changes > of key in the music. It is true that horn players do not observe these > different keys any more; but they are accustomed to transpose any key > instantly into the key of the horn they are using, and they much prefer > this > method to being forced to read all the time the horn in F, ..." (p. 279) > > At some point in the 20th century, most composers settled on the > now-standard Horn in F and stopped the practice of "changing horns" in the > parts. Exactly when that happened? I'm sure somebody out there has written > a > dissertation on it! > > Steve Larsen > OK, here's mine: My horn-player friend said Mahler settled on F horn after writing for horns in keys early, but a quick look through all the Mahler horn parts on IMSLP.org found nothing but F horn, so I'm not sure what the early writing would be. Bruckner wrote parts in different keys in some of the symphonies, but some have F horn only. Early Schoenberg and Stravinsky both were F horn only. Not Dvorak - he wrote in keys just as Brahms, [Dvorak 6th = Horn 1, 2 (in D, F, E), 3, 4 (in E, Bb, D)] if more chromatically. I was curious about J. Strauss Jr., since he might have been more in the public trenches - my friend didn't mention him but all the parts on IMSLP (not that many) are F horn. Perhaps the waltz king gets the award for helping establish the principle of writing for the F horn specifically, and going against the (written later) advice of Richard Strauss? (Perhaps more than ten minutes of research would be needed for this conclusion?) Raymond Horton > > > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] JW Space Systems v 1.20 for Windows
Great Work Jari! Il 05/11/2010 0.24, Jari Williamsson ha scritto: Hello! I have now made an update to the Windows version of JW Space Systems to work with Finale 2011a or higher. (It'll work with earlier Finale versions as well.) The most important addition in this new version is that the plug-in window will now open up even when parts are viewed. Please note that under the hood, this is a complete rewrite. I'm now using a different compiler and this new version isn't dependent on PDK Tools. So, if you find any bugs, please let me know! If a file gets incorrectly spaced staff systems, please e-mail me a sample file including the settings you're using. This Windows plug-in can be found on the Finale Productivity Tips site (in the Downloads section). http://www.finaletips.nu I'll make a Mac port as well. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] JW Space Systems v 1.20 for Windows
On 2010-11-05 02:03, Christopher Smith wrote: Works with linked parts, I assume? Correct. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
