Re: [Finale] Finale Unicode support; UTM; ACME

[dhbailey]

Unless it's one of those "we almost had it in time for the 
initial release but missed it by that much" (insert Maxwell 
Smart hand gesture) and they'll bring it out in the amazing 
Finale2011a or b release, soon to be announced.  :-)


David H. Bailey



Darcy James Argue wrote:

Since Finale 2011 was just released and does not support Unicode, it would 
appear the earliest conceivable version of Finale that could possibly offer 
that support would be Finale 2012.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org

On 27 Jul 2010, at 4:18 PM,   wrote:



In a message dated 7/27/2010 10:00:45 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
_jphill...@makemusic.com_ (mailto:jphill...@makemusic.com)  writes:


That was  a change for easier full staff selection when dragging  staves...


Speaking of which (smile), can anybody here, or a MakeMusic rep monitoring  
this list, let me know (privately if you prefer) when or if Finale will  
make the big (and, I understand, difficult) leap to Unicode? Unless that 
happens  soon, we'll have to change over production for our forthcoming college 
music  theory textbook, Understanding Tonal Music, to Sibelius, which 
accommodates  Unicode now. The TrueType versions of our ChordSymbol and JazzSymbol 
fonts  afford distinct improvements over existing options in Finale, but 
with the  native Unicode fonts, usable only in Sibelius, the time savings are  
enormous. This will greatly disadvantage Finale, since tens of thousands of  
music students a year will use Sibelius instead of Finale to complete  
their nightly homework assignments.


Ayotte Custom Musical Engravings, established by my colleague Benjamin  
Ayotte with my help, will also be forced to switch over to Sibelius. We'd both  
rather stay with Finale, but Unicode entry for chord symbols using our 
fonts is  so hugely advantageous that we'll have little choice.


For lead sheets, by the way, Benjamin will help me develop a handwritten  
version of JazzSymbol, which I understand many jazzers want. So that will be  
forthcoming sooner rather than later (probably sometime this fall), based 
on  scans of chord symbol calligraphy we will, most likely, commission. 
JazzHand, or  whatever we'll call it, will feature the same mapping as 
JazzSymbol,  representing a decided improvement over the existing handwritten chord 
symbol  fonts.


MakeMusic, if you're listening, we'd rather work with you than  
Avid/Sibelius. If you can accommodate our fonts specifically in your  Unicode-based 
chord symbol engineering, Finale will have a clear  edge in ChordSymbol entry, 
even beating out your newest competitor,  Noteflight, in that regard. We'd 
be delighted to help; just let us know.


Thanks much.

Best,  jrc

Dr. John R. Clevenger, Manager
The Virtual  Conservatory
50 S. Patterson Ave., #203
Santa Barbara, CA  93111
Phone and fax: (805) 964-7988 (for fax, ignore answering  machine)
Email: _jclev...@aol.com_ (mailto:jclev...@aol.com) 
Web site: _www.virtualconservatory.com_ 
(http://www.virtualconservatory.com/) 
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Re: [Finale] List seems very quiet

[dhbailey]

Thanks for that tip -- I guess it's time for me to sit down 
and read that book!  :-)


David H. Bailey

Phillips, Justin wrote:

Hi David,

That was a change for easier full staff selection when dragging staves.  
Instead of right-clicking on a handle and choosing Edit Staff Attributes, try 
double-clicking on a measure in that staff.  That will open Staff Attributes as 
well.

Justin Phillips
Notation Product Specialist
MakeMusic, Inc.
7615 Golden Triangle Drive, Suite M
Eden Prairie, MN 55344-3848 
Direct: (952) 818-3819
Sales: (800) 843-2066 
Technical Support: (952) 937-9703

Fax: (952) 937-9760


-Original Message-
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of 
dhbailey
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 5:14 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] List seems very quiet

Michael Withers wrote:

Is the Finale list still working? I haven't received any postings in the
last couple of days.



I'll get things rolling:

I finally tried 2011 to see if a procedure worked and I was 
surprised that when I selected the Staff tool 
double-clicking on the staff handle didn't do anything other 
than select the entire staff.  In 2010 and earlier when I 
used to double click on the handle it brought up the Staff 
Attributes dialog.  Now I have to right click and then 
select Edit Staff Attributes from the drop-down menu. 
Interesting change -- how is that an improvement, exactly? 
I guess it's an improvement because now I can select the 
entire staff easily, but it's not an improvement because 
it's an abrupt change in working methods.  Since something 
has to be on a drop-down menu, why not leave the 
double-click as it was (opening the Staff Attributes Dialog) 
and have the "Select entire Staff" option on the drop-down menu?


I can see this will be an interesting learning curve (or 
un-learning curve, as it may be) to get up to speed with 2011!





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Re: [Finale] List seems very quiet

[dhbailey]

Michael Withers wrote:

Is the Finale list still working? I haven't received any postings in the
last couple of days.



I'll get things rolling:

I finally tried 2011 to see if a procedure worked and I was 
surprised that when I selected the Staff tool 
double-clicking on the staff handle didn't do anything other 
than select the entire staff.  In 2010 and earlier when I 
used to double click on the handle it brought up the Staff 
Attributes dialog.  Now I have to right click and then 
select Edit Staff Attributes from the drop-down menu. 
Interesting change -- how is that an improvement, exactly? 
I guess it's an improvement because now I can select the 
entire staff easily, but it's not an improvement because 
it's an abrupt change in working methods.  Since something 
has to be on a drop-down menu, why not leave the 
double-click as it was (opening the Staff Attributes Dialog) 
and have the "Select entire Staff" option on the drop-down menu?


I can see this will be an interesting learning curve (or 
un-learning curve, as it may be) to get up to speed with 2011!


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011

[dhbailey]

David McKay wrote:

I've only put my toe in the water, but I'm liking FinWin 2011. I used to
upgrade every time, but our previous upgrade was FinWin 2004. The years
flash by as I get closer and closer to 60...

I like the way the program opens up 2 pages on my 19 inch monitor. I
previously only got a one page view.



That's good to know -- making such a huge jump in upgrades 
will show you huge changes in the program.  For those who 
have upgraded each year, it's not so big, but it's often the 
"under the hood" improvements which don't get listed on the 
"What's New" list which can make an upgrade worthwhile.


Personally, I did bite the bullet and upgrade to WinFin2011 
and I even bought the extra book they were offering for sale 
although I haven't really tackled the program yet.  I 
decided that with all the little changes over the past few 
versions, none of which I've really spent a lot of time 
with, I should dedicate some serious study time and approach 
this version like a brand new program, following the 
tutorials and reading the book and doing the exercises it 
contains and get back up to speed.


I finally did that with Sibelius, stopping myself from 
trying to approach it like a different version of Finale, 
and I found I really loved the program and I thought it only 
fair to give this newest version of Finale the same 
treatment and see if I regain my love for working in Finale.


If not, it'll be the last upgrade of Finale I buy, but if 
that happens, it won't be because I didn't give it a fair try.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

As far as the Nicole Simpson murder, you are correct, but
of course O.J. Simpson was convicted of armed robbery,
kidnapping, and other felonies on Oct. 3, 2008, and is
currently serving a minimum 9-year sentence.



You're correct -- I should have been more specific that in 
the case of Nicole Simpson he wasn't convicted of anything, 
he just lost a wrongful death lawsuit and had to pay.


The later case carried a conviction for him, and that's not 
the case John Howell raised.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

At 1:41 PM -0400 7/11/10, Blake Richardson wrote:

From: John Howell 


 If there IS a single problem, it's obviously the one we've all been
 aware of all the time:  the progress of technology has made new
 crimes not only possible but really, really EASY!


Copyright infringement is generally not a crime. There are criminal
penalties in the Copyright Statute, but they only apply in instances 
where

someone is clearly making a business of infringing-- the folks who steal
digital prints from studios, mass-press DVDs of films and sell them, for
example.


So it is not a crime except when it is?  I have a little bit of a 
problem tracking with that reasoning.  But I suspect that you're taking 
a very narrow and limited definition of "crime" into account, whereas 
mine was rather broader as meaning "anything that is against the law."  
What is yours?  By your reasoning, OJ was not convicted of a "crime"--in 
fact he was acquitted of it.  So what was it that he was subsequently 
convicted of?  One thing I DO know is that it wasn't copyright 
infringement!  That the penalty was financial and not jail time is 
irrelevant.


O.J. was never convicted of anything -- he simply lost a 
lawsuit as defendant and was forced to pay the penalty that 
the court felt was proper.  No criminal record comes from 
losing lawsuits, at least that I've ever heard of.


[snip]
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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Blake Richardson wrote:
[snip]> All sorts of scary stuff is happening in Europe 
under the umbrella of

"artists' rights". There's a proposal (don't know whether it's made it into
law yet) to give sculptors and painters the right of first refusal on sales
of their work. Under such a system, if you're lucky enough to buy a painting
from the next Picasso, early on in his career when he's unknown, and get the
painting for cheap, only to have it appreciate years later into the millions
due to the artist's fame, you can't sell it and recoup that investment
unless the artist lets you. He can buy it back from you at the price for
which he originally sold it. Fantastic, huh?


That's not what "first refusal" generally means -- so unless 
you can quote the law, we might be discussing something 
entirely different from what you think.


"First refusal" means that the person who owns that right 
must be asked first if he/she will buy the item at the 
asking price.  If they refuse, then the current owner is 
free to sell it to whomever they wish.


If that's what the law says then I don't have much problem 
with it as long as the artists themselves don't become 
recluses and refuse to make themselves available for 
contact.  But if Picasso wants to buy his painting back from 
me for $10million, that's fine.  If not, then someone else 
will buy it for $10million, makes no difference to me as 
long as I get the $10million.  But such a law does give the 
now wealthy painter a chance to buy his/her painting back.


If however the law says that the artist must be allowed to 
buy the painting back for the original price, I don't think 
even the artists will like it because nobody will ever buy 
their paintings as investments and so they'll never become 
famous and wealthy.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 10 Jul 2010 at 5:59, dhbailey wrote:

my post was quoted by Blake Richardson, who 
then went on the tirade against stupid things done in the 
name of copyright protection.


No, those were done in the name of enforcing performance rights, 
which is distinctly different from copyright. Copyright, for one, is 
mentioned in the Constitution, while performance rights are no.


It's really crucial to maintain the distinction between the two, 
seems to me, and getting all bent out of shape about the idiots going 
after the Girl Scouts (ASCAP will surely lose in court if EFF or 
somebody else steps up to defend the Girl Scouts) clouds the issue of 
copyright and downloadable scores.




No, they're not different from Copyright.  Performance is 
one of the rights which is protected under the U.S. 
Copyright Act.  Read the law -- it's right there:

Quoting from section 101 (definitions):
To “perform” a work means to recite, render, play, dance, or 
act it, either directly or by means of any device or process 
or, in the case of a motion picture or other audiovisual 
work, to show its images in any sequence or to make the 
sounds accompanying it audible.


A “performing rights society” is an association, 
corporation, or other entity that licenses the public 
performance of nondramatic musical works on behalf of 
copyright owners of such works, such as the American Society 
of Composers, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP), Broadcast 
Music, Inc. (BMI), and SESAC, Inc.17


Quoting from section 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted 
works: [DHBailey adds: notice paragraph 4]


Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright 
under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to 
authorize any of the following:


(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted 
work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, 
or by rental, lease, or lending;


(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and 
choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and 
other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work 
publicly;


(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and 
choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or 
sculptural works, including the individual images of a 
motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the 
copyrighted work publicly; and


(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the 
copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio 
transmission.


[\end quotation]

All that Blake mentioned is very much part of copyright law 
in the U.S. and was done under the provisions of the U.S. 
Copyright law.


Copyright is so much more than whether it's legal to 
photocopy or not.



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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:
[snip]
The former is exactly true, as I've pointed out before.  But I'm not 
sure the latter really is. If you ever walked through a record company's 
distribution warehouse (and I have), you realize that of all the records 
that company fronted for and released, only a few ever turned out to 

[snip]

I perhaps spoke incorrectly -- it was the record company 
executives which got fabulously wealthy.  Of course, the 
labels did, too, or the larger conglomerates wouldn't have 
started buying them up.



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Re: [Finale] Re: OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Blake Richardson wrote:

Interesting article in the Times just this week that highlights how
creativity and innovation in the food / high cuisine industry is managing to
thrive despite no copyright protections.

Thought it might be of interest given the discussion going on here.

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/who-owns-the-korean-taco/

"The conventional wisdom says that in a system like this no one should
innovate. Copyright¹s raison d¹etre is to promote creativity by protecting
creators from pirates. But in the food world, pirates are everywhere. By
this logic, we ought to be consigned to uninspired and traditional food
choices. "



At least under U.S. copyright law recipes can't be 
copyrighted, although collections of them can be copyrighted 
as entire collections even though the individual recipes 
aren't copyrightable.



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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

Nigel Hanley wrote:

Cecil, in many ways I agree with you. Full stop. I 'm equally not 
trying to pick a fight, but am merely attempting to understand why the 
original owners of such monumental works of popular music such as the 
Beatles' library are forced to undergo legal proceedings to retain 
their work , or archival works of genius such as Coltrane are up for 
grabs by Hal Leonard, ex-drummer.


One thing to be aware of: years ago, the US firm of Hal Leonard got more 
into music printing and distribution, and over the years has become 
printer and distributor for the catalogs of a number of other 
publishers. I don't know who the owner to the copyright of Coltrane's 
music is, but there is a significant possibility that Hal Leonard is 
merely printing and distributing this material on behalf of the owner of 
the copyright, just as it does with the catalogs of G. Schirmer, the 
Fred Bock Companies, Walton Music, and others.




Interestingly, the ownership of the involved copyrights is 
so murky that even the publishers have no clue anymore.


Actual story -- years ago I discovered that a then 
out-of-print concert band arrangement I had just purchased 
(and dearly wanted to perform with my community band) was 
missing the low brass and percussion from trombone on down 
the score.  The work was printed and distributed by Hal 
Leonard, but the music was "published" (i.e. copyright was 
owned) by a different company.  So I contacted Hal Leonard 
for permission to photocopy the missing parts since they 
couldn't provide them for me.  I was told by Hal Leonard's 
legal office that I needed to get that permission from the 
actual publisher, that Hal Leonard as a corporation didn't 
have the right to give that permission.  They gave me the 
phone number to call the other publisher.  Which I did, and 
was told that they no longer controlled the copyright since 
they had licensed all that to Hal Leonard, so I needed to 
contact Hal Leonard for the permission.


So this wasn't a case of the right hand not knowing what the 
left hand was doing, it was a case of the right hand not 
knowing what the right hand was doing!




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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Nigel Hanley wrote:

Cecil, in many ways I agree with you. Full stop. I 'm
equally not trying to pick a fight, but am merely
attempting to understand why the original owners of such
monumental works of popular music such as the Beatles'
library are forced to undergo legal proceedings to retain
their work , or archival works of genius such as Coltrane
are up for grabs by Hal Leonard, ex-drummer.


Point of order -- there never was a person named Hal 
Leonard, drummer or otherwise.  It was a made-up name for 
the "front man" of a dance band.


But the legal wrangling happens because despite all the 
arguments to the contrary, at least in the U.S. and I 
suspect also in the U.K. and other European countries and 
all signatories to the Uruguay round of GATT, intellectual 
property shares many of the same characteristics as physical 
property, and copyrights can be sold, traded and given away. 
 And once the ownership of those copyrights changes hands, 
they are like any other piece of physical property and if 
the original creators want them back, they have to negotiate 
with the current owners.


It's all part of the copyright law, and that's how such 
things are forced to come about.




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Re: [Finale] FinMac 2011 Percussion entry/playback GPO4

[dhbailey]

Thank you very much for sharing this with us -- it seems 
like it will make things easier for us who might be trying GPO4.


David H. Bailey


David Froom wrote:

Hi,
I got some excellent advice from Make Music Tech Support (Travis S.), as 
I've been struggling to get this to work.


What I want is for a percussion staff (5 line) to go back and forth 
between GPO4 Basic Orch Percussion and GPO4 Percussion Toys, and for all 
the notes to appear on the center line (if treble clef, B).


First one needs to locate the XML file supplied by GPO4 (it is in 
Applications/Garritan Personal Orchestra 4 folder). You copy it to the 
Macintosh HD/Users/Your user name/Library/Application 
Support/MakeMusic/Finale 2011/MIDI Device Annotation folder.


Now you set up the Aria player to have GPO4 Basic Orch Percussion on 
channel 10, GPO4 Percussion Toys on channel 26 (that is, channel 10 of a 
second player).  Could be other channels, if you like.


In staff attributes for the percussion staff, Notation Style should be 
Percussion, and the "select button" should show that you have chosen 
Orchestral Percussion for the MIDI map.  If you want to change where 
things appear, edit the Orchestral Percussion MIDI map, and change where 
each note appears (for me, all on the center line).


Create a new staff style, based on Percussion:  5-line staff.  For this 
staff style, Notation Style "select" button, create a new MIDI map and 
call it Percussion Toys.  This will be empty, because it hasn't been 
defined -- you fix that later, as you enter notes.


In Window/Instrument list, you click on triangle to expand the 
percussion staff.  Make sure layer 1 is pointed to channel 10, and has 
Basic Orch Percussion as the MIDI map.  Create a new instrument for 
layer 2, and send the sounds to channel 26, and Percussion Toys as MIDI 
map.


You enter notes for Basic Orch Percussion in layer 1, for Percussion 
Toys in layer 2.  The percussion toys notes will be all over the place, 
because the midi map hasn't been created for it.  The notes will appear 
in orange.


To see what GPO4 calls each Percussion toy note (and to see it's MIDI 
assignment), go to MIDI/Audio, Device Setup/Edit Percussion MIDI maps.  
In the dropdown menu Select a MIDI device, choose Garritan Personal 
Orchestra 4, and for Map, Percussion Toys.  Note the names and the MIDI 
note number assignments.


After you enter some Percussion Toys notes, apply the Percussion Toys 
staff style.  In View/Show, choose Show Percussion MIDI values.  You'll 
see the MIDI note number assignments under each note.


Select the measures with the new Percussion Toys notes, and go to 
Utilities/Transpose Percussion Notes.  Fix these one at a time, sending 
the note you played to the sound listed in the Edit Percussion MIDI maps 
menu.


Finally, go to the staff style for Percussion Toys, click on the select 
next to the Notation Style: Percussion, and edit the Percussion Toys 
MIDI map.  You'll see the notes you created, and you can drag the 
display to show up on any note.


Once this has been done, entering percussion and getting it to display 
correctly is fast.  You need only to enter notes for Basic Orch Perc in 
layer 1, Percussion Toys in layer 2, apply staff style to the Percussion 
Toys bits, and the whole thing looks and plays back correctly.  You add 
new Percussion toys notes only as you need them, and as you go.  The 
setup (and figuring it out) was at first laborious -- but I just re-did 
it in my piece, and it took about 15 minutes.


I'm not sure what I will do if I need to mix Orch Perc and Perc Toys in 
a single measure, since staff styles need a full measure to work.  I 
think the workaround will be to add a Perc Toy note to the Orch Perc 
MIDI map.  I think this will work.


I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of coordination 
between Finale and GPO4.  2010 was supposed to make percussion easy -- 
and I suppose it is easier than it was (which says a lot about how 
cumbersome it was in 2009 and earlier). GPO for Finale 2011 works fine, 
but GPO4 has severe problems interacting with FinMac2011.  I can't get 
the notation KS GPO4 instruments to work at all (this was not broken in 
FinMac 2009), so for strings, I've switched to GPO for Finale 2011, and 
for other instruments I am using the non-notation KS versions, and 
putting key switches hidden in layer 3.  I tried Darcy's suggestion of 
changing the HP preference file, under techniques, to call all the GPO 
stuff simply "Garritan."  This didn't work for me...


One more thing about Finale 2011.  In FinMac 2009, they had introduced a 
fast piano cross staff beaming method that I discovered by mistake.  You 
simply selected the notes you want to move, and hit opt-down/up.  It was 
fabulous, fast, and very close to being accurate.  That is gone!  And 
the key strokes for doing it don't do anything now.  Why would they 
remove something so useful???  I asked the tech support guy, and he 
didn't know that 

Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Cecil Rigby wrote:

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just understand

WHY, exactly, is it offensive in any degree that anyone can (having 
enough money and a willing seller) become a holder of copyrights?


The individual artist's rights are NOT abridged just because someone may 
buy their publisher's library. The new owner is still bound by the 
original contractual agreements. That the artists weren't astute enough 
when the contracts were signed, or that the industry may've taken 
advantage of them, are different issues altogether.


Or did I miss something?



Your phrase "willing seller" is part of the problem here -- 
when Buddy Holly was a youngster just starting out he had a 
choice to either make the records or not make the records. 
But if he chose to make the records, he had to sign away his 
copyrights to the record label's publisher.  And he may well 
have been willing, having been told "you'll receive 10% of 
all the profits your music brings us.  Imagine it, you'll be 
rich!"  And then the record label accountants fudged things 
so that there weren't any profits.  So "willing seller" be 
damned, it's the cheating that goes on after the "willing 
selling" that is where the offensive behavior happens.


I believe at least in Germany (I'm sure someone will correct 
me if I'm wrong) that copyrights can not be given away or 
sold.  They remain with the creator for whatever term the 
law says.  They can be licensed to others, but when that 
license expires, the original creator still owns the copyrights.


Compare that to the U.S. where, despite all the arguments to 
the contrary, intellectual property is just like physical 
property in many regards and copyrights can be given away, 
sold or traded, and once the original owner gives, sells or 
trades the copyright, the only way he/she can regain the 
copyright is to negotiate with whomever is the owner at the 
time.


Several major band composers in the U.S., Ed Madden and John 
Edmunds, have spent quite a few years regaining copyrights 
from the publishers who had decided to let their band music 
go permanently out of print, and Madden and Edmunds are both 
making their music available once again.


The offensive part of the comment, in my opinion at least, 
is that people should be able to take advantage of 
underinformed, inexperienced people who couldn't afford a 
lawyer (can you name 5 teenagers who can plunk down 
$200/hour for legal consultation?  I can't!), and Michael 
Jackson shouldn't be able to the Beatles copyrights anymore 
than Paul McCartney should be able to own the Buddy Holly 
copyrights (which I find equally offensive.)


Just because something is legal doesn't make it inoffensive.

And it's all well and good to say "buyer beware" and "those 
kids should have gotten legal advice" but that doesn't make 
the reality any less offensive.  Just because someone can 
legally cheat others doesn't mean they should do so.  And 
those early rock and roll stars were certainly cheated, and 
many still are.



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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

Graeme Gerrard wrote:

I am from an older generation, but kids these days have the attitude that the money goes 
to multinational companies, with only a trickle to the composers and performers, their 
"heroes".
My generation bought into the arrangement and that's who passed the laws (same 
with plant/gene/life ownership).  Younger people automatically rebel against 
the ludicrous situation which we buy into because we think we might actually 
make a little lucre!
Graeme


I have no idea if the situation has improved any these days, 
but for many years that was very true, often with performers 
being on the hook to the record labels for a lot of money 
which was never recouped by the record sales, due in large 
part to "creative accounting" on the part of the record 
labels.  The payment to composers, at least in the U.S., has 
been prescribed by law for any recordings following the 
original recording, but even there quite often through 
creative accounting, the money which should have been paid 
to the composers never made it to them.


The only way most recording artists ever made money was 
through attendance at their live performances, due in large 
part to the success of the record sales for which the 
artists often didn't make any money at all while the record 
labels grew fabulously wealthy.


Of course none of that is the fault of the copyright laws 
themselves, but rather to the old truth that those with with 
the deepest pockets seem to make the most money.  Lawsuits 
by penniless artists went nowhere when up against the huge 
financial and legal resources of the record labels, which 
are these days multinational companies and not the original 
"mom and pop" sort of labels like Motown was when it started 
or Sun records or Chess or any number of local record labels 
which actually gave young artists a start and paid them good 
money, too.


None of this makes any of the file sharing legal or morally 
right -- it's just too bad that the millions of kids who 
think that file sharing is alright since it's only taking 
money away from the bad-guy corporations don't get organized 
and become politically active and get the governments to 
change the copyright laws more to their liking, and get the 
multinational recording coporations to stop defrauding their 
recording artists.


Millions of voters might just have more power than Disney, 
Inc. if only they could get organized.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

dhbailey wrote:

John Howell wrote:

From: dhbailey 

Let's be fair about things here. Yes, there's a problem with people who
believe that just because the internet makes it easy, they're 
entitled to
whatever they want without paying. But you also have to take into 
account
the almost psychopathic pursuit of every conceivable penny in the 
name of

copyright by various record labels, trade associations, and collections
societies.


So are you arguing that two wrongs makes a right, David?  Sorry, but 
that does not compute.  That's what courts are for, or simple public 
ridicule, as happened when ASCAP tried to dun the Boy and Girl Scouts 
for music sung around their campfires.  You did mention the case, and 
if I recall ASCAP had to back off with egg on their face.


John




You misread the quotation attributes, John.  I didn't say that at all -- 
my post was quoted by Blake Richardson, who then went on the tirade 
against stupid things done in the name of copyright protection.


I am most definitely arguing that 2 wrongs make a right, although I 
believe that Blake wasn't saying that either, simply pointing out why a 
whole generation seems to think that it's okay to share music without 
paying anybody.




Oops -- that last paragraph was meant to say "I am most 
definitely *not* arguing that 2 wrongs make a right . . ."


Not enough coffee for this hour of the morning!

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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

From: dhbailey 

Let's be fair about things here. Yes, there's a problem with people who
believe that just because the internet makes it easy, they're entitled to
whatever they want without paying. But you also have to take into account
the almost psychopathic pursuit of every conceivable penny in the name of
copyright by various record labels, trade associations, and collections
societies.


So are you arguing that two wrongs makes a right, David?  Sorry, but 
that does not compute.  That's what courts are for, or simple public 
ridicule, as happened when ASCAP tried to dun the Boy and Girl Scouts 
for music sung around their campfires.  You did mention the case, and if 
I recall ASCAP had to back off with egg on their face.


John




You misread the quotation attributes, John.  I didn't say 
that at all -- my post was quoted by Blake Richardson, who 
then went on the tirade against stupid things done in the 
name of copyright protection.


I am most definitely arguing that 2 wrongs make a right, 
although I believe that Blake wasn't saying that either, 
simply pointing out why a whole generation seems to think 
that it's okay to share music without paying anybody.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Copyright and downloadable music

[dhbailey]

I had gotten the link to that blog from a different list 
(orchestralist maybe?) and as always am intrigued by the way 
that many people seem to think that additional exposure to a 
potential wider buying audience is what we musicians want, 
whether we be composers or performers.  I can't remember how 
many requests I've had to perform free for someone "because 
of all the exposure you'll get!  Think of all the people who 
will hear you and are likely to want to hire you!"  These 
days I've taken to replying "All exposure will get you is 
arrested" among other reasons why it's really not in my best 
interest to prove to a large number of people that I'm 
willing to play for nothing.  I sometimes ask what business 
they're in and if it's something like real estate or auto 
sales, I'll reply by asking for a free house or a free car 
and telling them "think of all the exposure you'll be 
getting as I drive around in a car with your dealership name 
on it!"


The same attitude goes for people wanting to download 
copyrighted music without the copyright owners' permission, 
as if we have an inherent right as Americans (or maybe even 
as human beings) to be able to listen to or perform any and 
all music ever written and never have to help the composers 
earn a living so they can write more great music.


The whole intellectual property issue needs to be addressed 
more specifically and certainly more clearly by the U.S. 
copyright law, where "fair use" is more clearly defined so 
that it isn't one incomprehensible gray area which keeps 
lawyers in business.


And it also needs to be addressed much more by knowledgeable 
teachers in the public and private schools long before 
students reach the middle school age.


David H. Bailey




David W. Fenton wrote:
This was on the NY Times website today (I didn't see it in the 
printed paper):


http://tinyurl.com/29wzmx9 =>
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/08/no-easy-answers-in-the-
copyright-debate/

It refers to a blog post from a Broadway composer, Jason Robert 
Brown, and his interaction with a teenager who felt it was her right 
to download his music.


On my FaceBook page I made this comment:

I did find the quotation from Michael Hawley of MIT to be extremely 
problematic. There is no issue with public domain sheet music, but 
many public domain editions are inferior to the new ones that are 
under copyright. The availability of the public domain editions will 
serve to depress the market for new, improved editions.


But there's also a real... See More issue with the Classical music 
world that the vast majority of the standard repertory that people 
want to play is over 100 years old, and the original editions in the 
public domain. There just isn't that much new music that's getting a 
wide audience.


Broadway is a completely different animal, of course, so the 
comparison made by Hawley seems to me to be completely inapplicable.





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Re: [Finale] Doubling part label

[dhbailey]

My bad, on both counts.  Thanks for the links.

David


Bob Morabito wrote:
Sorry David, but your wrong on this..we'll chalk it up to your bad 
memory, and even WORSE Googling.:):)


Heres a bunch on it

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=mLt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&&sa=X&ei=kek1TK6mE8SqlAe2oNXSBw&ved=0CBIQvwUoAQ&q=the+Decline+of+the+West+in+C%23+Major+orchestra+Rehearsal&spell=1> 



--OR--

http://tinyurl.com/2gy4f2k


Thanks Bob

On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:24 AM, dhbailey wrote:


I think not -- could be my bad memory, but I recall it as being:

"The decline and fall of western civilization in C# minor."

I just tried to find it, but after getting lots of hits with 
commentary about the movie, I could find nothing referring to this 
subtitle.


Oh well -- I certainly enjoyed watching it way back when it was 
actually in a theater in Cambridge, MA.


David H. Bailey

Bob Morabito wrote:

What is--"The Decline of the West in C# Major " ?
Bob Morabito
On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:18 AM, dhbailey wrote:

Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:

Wow!   I thought I was the only one who knew that movie!
And just FWIW: it wasn't a balloon.   It was 
anothersimilar.latex item.


Does anybody remember the subtitle to that movie?  This is a quiz -- 
I do remember what it is.


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Re: [Finale] Doubling part label

[dhbailey]

I think not -- could be my bad memory, but I recall it as being:

"The decline and fall of western civilization in C# minor."

I just tried to find it, but after getting lots of hits with 
commentary about the movie, I could find nothing referring 
to this subtitle.


Oh well -- I certainly enjoyed watching it way back when it 
was actually in a theater in Cambridge, MA.


David H. Bailey

Bob Morabito wrote:

What is--"The Decline of the West in C# Major " ?

Bob Morabito
On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:18 AM, dhbailey wrote:


Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:

Wow!   I thought I was the only one who knew that movie!
And just FWIW: it wasn't a balloon.   It was 
anothersimilar.latex item.


Does anybody remember the subtitle to that movie?  This is a quiz -- I 
do remember what it is.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Tuning without an Oboe in the group

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

At 4:19 PM -0400 7/7/10, dhbailey wrote:


And that also assumes that the string player wouldn't use an 
electronic tuner to get the A and then tune by ear from there.  I 
never suggested that they use the tuner for all their strings, just 
that if everybody were using an electronic tuner to get their standard 
pitch from, tuning would be even quicker in the ensemble.


All quite true.  But most inexperienced players use it for all 4 strings.

John




But if we're talking about inexperienced players, they're 
not going to be tuning perfect 5ths anyway, and most likely 
won't be playing in tune much of the time, so it's a moot 
point with them.  Even tuning to a tuning fork or an oboe or 
clarinet won't help inexperienced players.


It is to be hoped that inexperienced players are working 
with teachers who are teaching them how to tune properly and 
how to make the best use of any tuning device, which would 
include electronic tuners, and, again one would hope, would 
teach those inexperienced string players to use the tuning 
device to get one string in tune and then tune the other 
strings from that original string.


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Re: [Finale] Doubling part label

[dhbailey]

Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:

Wow!   I thought I was the only one who knew that movie!

And just FWIW: it wasn't a balloon.   It was anothersimilar.latex item.



Does anybody remember the subtitle to that movie?  This is a 
quiz -- I do remember what it is.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Tuning without an Oboe in the group

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 7 Jul 2010 at 15:07, John Howell wrote:


And for string players, tuning to a meter means tuning tempered 5ths,
not pure 5ths.


Er, doesn't that depend on what temperament you have your electronic 
tuner set to?




And that also assumes that the string player wouldn't use an 
electronic tuner to get the A and then tune by ear from 
there.  I never suggested that they use the tuner for all 
their strings, just that if everybody were using an 
electronic tuner to get their standard pitch from, tuning 
would be even quicker in the ensemble.


Just as using a tuning fork gives a standard A for the 
string player to tune from, so, too, an electronic tuner can 
be used to get that A string in tune to a standard pitch and 
then the player takes it from there by ear, one would hope.


No need for tempered fifths at all, unless playing with a 
tempered keyboard.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Tuning without an Oboe in the group

[dhbailey]

Ryan wrote:

If there's no oboe in the orchestra (pit orchestra), what's the next best
choice to tune to? Muted trumpet? Ha. In all seriousness; Clarinet? Flute?
According to the League of American Orchestras, The penetrating tone of the
oboe is easy for all players to hear, and its ability to sustain pitch is
very 
secure.
By
those criteria, I should pick the instrument in the group that is easiest to
hear and is most stable. Of course, the volunteer community musician playing
that instrument has to be capable to sustain the pitch!
I doubt there's one clear answer, just wondering what you all do in similar
situations.


Many amateur bands use clarinet because the principal 
clarinetist is more capable of sustaining the pitch than the 
oboist.


Seriously, though, why doesn't everybody have their 
instrument already tuned when they unpack it and start 
warming up?  It's not as though perfectly capable automatic 
tuners are beyond anybody's financial reach these days.


One more thought -- depending on the keyboard you're using, 
you might need to use that as the standard as it may be 
higher or lower than the standard pitch and so people should 
tune to that, so make sure that whomever you select to sound 
the tuning note for the group to use, have them match their 
pitch with the keyboard, if one is being used.



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Re: [Finale] Use of JazzSymbol in Finale

[dhbailey]

Thank you very much for clarifying this for me -- I suspect 
you will be selling a font to me in the near future!  :-)


David H. Bailey

jclev...@aol.com wrote:
 
 
In a message dated 6/26/2010 10:01:06 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
finale-requ...@shsu.edu writes:


Date:  Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:40:45 -0400
From: dhbailey  
Subject: Re: [Finale]  JazzSymbol commercial music chord symbol font
released
To:  
Cc: sibelius-l...@yahoogroups.com
Message-ID:  <4c25d92d.6020...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed

I have a question  regarding the use of these fonts in Finale 
or in Sibelius - I didn't think  either program was unicode 
compliant yet.  Am I mistaken about  this?  If a program 
isn't unicode compliant how does one access any  of the 
characters above character number 256?


The demo for  ChordSymbol which you link to below (the top 
link didn't work for me but  the 2nd link did work) appears 
to be showing us how to do it on a  Mac.  It only shows one 
page of 256 characters.  How would we do  such a task on a 
Windows machine, and how would any of us access more than  
256 characters?


David H. Bailey


Hi David. First, yes, Sibelius has a glaring advantage over Finale right  
now when it comes to chord symbol entry, because they have managed to embrace 
 Unicode, which I understand is no small thing. Hopefully Finale can be 
brought  up to date in that regard soon. Until that happens, our Unicode fonts 
are  slightly ahead of the curve, but once Finale users realize the 
advantages  afforded by native Unicode chord symbol entry, they won't want to do it 
any  other way.
 

That's why I also laboriously developed cross-platform TrueType component  
fonts for both of our chord symbol font packages, ChordSymbol and 
JazzSymbol. In  the latter case, there are seven TrueType fonts, including small 
suffixes and  tensions, large suffixes and tensions, a custom range so any 
matching custom  combination can be created from scratch, and a comments range.
 
Even with just the TrueType fonts, mechanisms provided by modern operating  
systems--the Character Palette/Viewer on the Mac side, the Character Map on 
the  Windows side--greatly facilitate entry of these symbols. That's what 
Kent used  in his demo; to access other characters, you just move to the 
needed range (or  switch fonts in the case of TrueType fonts). The PopChar 
utility, available  cheaply at _http://www.ergonis.com/products/_ 
(http://www.ergonis.com/products/) , is  even better. And of course in Finale, chord symbol 
creation is palette-based.  You simply switch to whichever font you need, 
enter the required symbol in your  Library, and you're done. If you use the 
fonts in the Lyrics or Text tools, all  characters can be accessed using the 
keystrokes provided in our character maps  (Alt + code on Windows; various 
Option-key and Shift-Option-key combinations on  Mac). I myself have created 
something like 2000 pages of music analysis  illustrations using ChordSymbol 
with Finale in basic production of our music  theory textbook, 
Understanding Tonal Music, so I know of what I speak, believe  me.
 
Once Finale updates to Unicode, chord symbol input will be that much  
faster. I'm told that chord symbol entry using our fonts in Sibelius is  
amazingly fast and easy, far superior to Sibelius's built-in functionality using  
the old-style fonts distributed with their product. And here's where the  good 
people over at MakeMusic can get a competitive leg up over their chief  
rival once or if they wake up to the exquisite quality and incisive design  
features of our Unicode fonts: If they build their Unicode chord symbol input  
functionality around our fonts, chord symbol entry will be such a breeze 
that  nobody will ever want to go back to the old-fashioned way of doing 
things.  Something like five times as fast, with no need ever to assemble your own 
 library, as our fonts are totally comprehensive and infinitely extensible.
 
Thanks much.


Cheers,  jrc

Dr. John R. Clevenger, Manager
The Virtual Conservatory
50 S.  Patterson Ave., #203
Santa Barbara, CA 93111
Phone and fax: (805)  964-7988 (for fax, ignore answering machine)
Email: _jclev...@aol.com_ (mailto:jclev...@aol.com) 
Web site: _www.virtualconservatory.com_ 
(http://www.virtualconservatory.com/) 
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Re: [Finale] JazzSymbol commercial music chord symbol font released

[dhbailey]

I have a question regarding the use of these fonts in Finale 
or in Sibelius - I didn't think either program was unicode 
compliant yet.  Am I mistaken about this?  If a program 
isn't unicode compliant how does one access any of the 
characters above character number 256?


The demo for ChordSymbol which you link to below (the top 
link didn't work for me but the 2nd link did work) appears 
to be showing us how to do it on a Mac.  It only shows one 
page of 256 characters.  How would we do such a task on a 
Windows machine, and how would any of us access more than 
256 characters?


David H. Bailey


jclev...@aol.com wrote:
Greetings fellow music listers. Long in the making, JazzSymbol, the  
powerful new commercial music chord symbol font, a less formal-looking  companion 
product to ChordSymbol for traditional music, was released today.  For font 
samples and an order form, see _www.virtualconservatory.com_ 
(http://www.virtualconservatory.com) . Video  demos of chord symbol input using our fonts 
in various applications  can be seen at 
_http://music.iupui.edu/imtc/2010/presenters/kent_williams/_ 
(http://music.iupui.edu/imtc/2010/presenters/kent_williams/) .
 



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Re: [Finale] Initial view

[dhbailey]

mmathew1...@comcast.net wrote:
Isn't the Preferences, program options, new document windows where you set the opening page view option: scroll, page or studio view? 



I usually miss something, so, please be kind when you correct me! 


[snip]

Yes, that's right.  But it's not called "New Document 
Windows" (at least Finale2008 on Windows machines) -- 
perhaps if it were, it would be a more logical place to look 
for what was asked about.  But it's simply called "New" 
which for many computer users implies "new file."  Perhaps 
the easiest way to avoid the confusion is for MakeMusic to 
relabel that tab "New Document Windows" instead of "New."


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Re: [Finale] Initial view

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:
I can't remember where one sets the initial view to Page view when 
opening a file. I can't find it in Program options (Fin2008).


Can anyone remind me?



On the "New" page is a place to set the default view for any 
new file to Page, Studio or Scroll view.


Can't make this stuff up -- the view that existing documents 
open into is determined by the view you select in the "New" 
page of the Program Options.


Curiously enough, on the "Open" page of Program Options 
there is no way to set this option.


How is someone supposed to know this stuff?  If what we set 
on the "New" page also determines something pertaining to 
opening existing file, shouldn't there be some indication 
about that on the dialog page itself?  How hard would it be 
for the programmers to put the text "This option also 
affects the opening of current files" -- and then making 
some indication on the "Open" page (which one would 
logically conclude contains all the options pertaining to 
opening existing files) to the effect "To select the view 
that existing files will open into, go to the "New" page of 
this dialog."


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Re: [Finale] play 2nd time only

[dhbailey]

trumpe...@verizon.net wrote:

Hello all---I cannot get a passage to play 2nd time only
on a section that has a 1st and 2nd ending. I have Finale
2007 and have used the expression tool to create the
words "2nd time only" and set the key velocity on 0 and
play only on 1st time then set key velocity on 64 for
play on 2nd pass. This doesn't work. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance. 


You have to create 2 expressions:

1) 2nd Time Only (as you have indicated you did) with 
velocity set to 0 and Play On Pass set to 1


2) Play 2nd Time (or any text you like, with the Font Style 
set to Hidden, Velocity set to 60 and Play On Pass set to 2.


Place these both at the start of the repeated section.

The reason you need both expressions is that once the 
velocity is set to 0 you need somehow to tell the program 
that it needs to be reset.  Otherwise it would be silent 
until the end of the piece.


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Re: [Finale] Snare Drum playback

[dhbailey]

Lee Dengler wrote:

Hi All,

I seldom write for percussion and I an not figure out how to create a snare
drum playback.  I am on Finale 2010.  Thanks to anyone who can help me with
this.



You have to define the staff to be a percussion staff (use 
the Staff tool, then under Notation Style select 
Percussion), then you have to click on the Select button. 
There are some pre-defined percussion setups, one of which 
is Concert Snare Drum.  If you don't like where the notes 
are on the staff, you can edit the definition for that staff 
and change the staff position number.


If playback is important, the other step you need to do (I 
still don't understand why Finale isn't smart enough to do 
this automatically, since it has to be done for proper 
playback of percussion) is to open the Instrument List 
(under the Window) menu, and set the instrument for that 
staff to be Percussion.  This assigns Channel 10 (the GM 
percussion channel) to that staff and you should get proper 
sounds when you listen to playback.


I hope this helps.


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Re: [Finale] upgrade? and question

[dhbailey]

Katherine Hoover wrote:

Dear finalelist,
I'm working on a fairly new mac with finale 2004.

1. Is it time to upgrade to 2011?

2. I have a score with 4 staves.  Is it possible (for formatting) to 
move a single staff up or down within a single system ?




1.  Only you can answer if it's time to move up to 2011. 
Some would say definitely, while others would say that if 
2004 is doing all you need/want it to do, then you should 
stay where you are.


2.  Optimize the score (in page layout tool) but don't have 
it remove any staves (unless you want to have some removed). 
 Once you've had the score optimized, when you use the 
Staff Tool you'll notice two handles on each staff where 
there used to be only one.  Grab the lower one and that will 
move only that staff in that system.  If you grab the upper 
handle you move that staff in all the systems throughout the 
score.


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Re: [Finale] OT: Creating a Ringtone

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 16 Jun 2010 at 11:18, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:


Trim it to about 20 seconds. Save it as mp3 with file extension "mp3"
(or "mid" for older phones). Works great!


Seems to me that the older phones that used "mid" files were not 
playing MP3s, but had a software synch, and played a midi file? If 
not, then the choice of MID for the file extension was pretty weird.


Yes? No?



My phone uses midi files if I wish.  The software synth 
isn't too bad for the files I've created (one original and 
Gilligan's Island).




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Re: [Finale] Band and Chorus

[dhbailey]

Ryan wrote:

Where should the chorus be placed in a score for concert band? Below the
brass and above the percussion?


There is no standard for placement of chorus in band scores. 
 As a conductor, I've seen the chorus placed at the top of 
the score, the bottom of the score, and in the middle, 
between the saxes and the brass.


I prefer it in the middle since I'm working with a very 
amateur chorus singing with an excellent but still amateur 
band, and with it in the middle, I find it easier to pay 
more attention to the printed score overall and not just 
focus on the choral staves, yet have the choral staves 
remain my main focus for most of the piece.


I hate having the chorus either at the very top or the very 
bottom.


But there really is no standard for where to place it.

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Re: [Finale] Rendering Garritan instruments to separate WAV files

[dhbailey]

Aaron Sherber wrote:

On 6/6/2010 9:00 AM, Craig Parmerlee wrote:

The upshot is that for Finale to be taken serious as a rendering tool,
it needs to either produce independent WAV files per track or else
become an order of magnitude easier to achieve a reasonable mix.


Personally, I don't think Finale is intended to be taken seriously as a 
rendering tool. I think it's a notation tool which happens to have some 
halfway decent tools for producing audio output.


This is a little like saying, "If Microsoft Word wants to be taken 
seriously as a layout program". Word is a word processor which also 
gives you the ability to do some basic layout. But it will never come 
close to the abilities of a real layout program, like InDesign or Quark.


(This is where one of the listers -- I forget who -- jumps in and says 
that they have long used Finale as a word processor.)


Just my $0.02. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice for Finale to do what 
you want, just that I think it's outside its declared scope.




While I quite agree with you that Finale shouldn't be taken 
seriously as a rendering tool, MakeMusic moved that concept 
to within Finale's "declared scope" when it upped the ante 
by including the GPO sounds and has since incorporated the 
ability to use any VST plug-ins for sounds.  Read all the 
marketing hype from MakeMusic regarding playback and the 
ability to render a score to audio, and you can see that at 
least the marketing department thinks that audio rendering 
is well within the declared scope of Finale.



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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 Review

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:
I suggest you contact MakeMusic (even if you don't upgrade to Fin2011) 
and ask that they should keep the old way as well. Or display the 
distance as text as you suggested.


Yeah, I'll add it to my list.

For so many years I was so far behind on upgrading it seemed almost meaningless 
to make feature requests. Now that I'm in v2010 I'm at least pretty close, so 
I'm hoping to compile a list to send in.

I have other much higher priorities than this one, of course, but if it's an 
easy fix then that's great.



While I can understand your reluctance to send in feature 
requests when you've been behind on upgrading, if they know 
that you haven't upgraded and you're asking for some new 
feature perhaps it will receive some sort of boost on the 
triage list of what they'll include or fix as an inducement 
to you (and others who may have requested the same things) 
to buy the next upgrade and get back on track.


I don't think that any of us owe it to MakeMusic to keep our 
version current with their need for an annual cash infusion 
-- as users of the program at any level we have a right to 
make requests for things we feel can improve the product. 
Software publishers welcome them from anybody as a means of 
determining what is most likely to attract the largest 
numbers of new users and upgraders for the next version.


So send in your list -- personally, I don't see anything in 
Fin2011 to make me want to upgrade.  The little work I do 
with lyrics has always been easy for me to accomplish so the 
latest enhancements to lyric entry makes no difference to me 
at this point, and the new way to work with the staves 
doesn't hold any attraction for me because I've always been 
able to get the layout I've wanted fairly painlessly and 
nobody's ever complained about the layout in my finished 
products.


It's the little tweaks "under the hood" which MakeMusic 
always sees fit to lump together under a single phrase along 
the lines of "and numerous other improvements" that is what 
has made me want to upgrade annually when I've done so.  The 
introduction of staff styles was the last significant 
addition to the program that would have made me upgrade in 
an instant.  Linked score/parts has proven to be less of a 
wonderful thing than it might have been had they taken the 
time to get it right initially -- gradually as additional 
versions have come out they've improved it more to where it 
should be but it's still not as transparent nor as perfect 
as their marketing department would like us all to think it is.


So I'll be skipping this upgrade.

Thank you, Jari, for your review.  It's great to have a 
hands-on review from a long-time user who isn't blinded by 
the marketing hype.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Gardner Read book

[dhbailey]

n...@npcimaging.com wrote:

David Bailey wrote:
"Also out of print is Gardner Read's work, "Sourcebook of 
Proposed Music Notation Reforms" from 1985."
 
I beg to differ... I have two copies in stock ri ght now! :)
Along with many other Gardner Read titles. 
Nick





I see that the edition you have for sale is from Greenwood 
Press and is dated later than the listing I saw when I was 
researching the books earlier at Amazon.  Hmm -- I just went 
back to Amazon to check and the first one that I saw, dated 
1985 isn't showing up when I search, and lo and behold, they 
do have the same edition you have for sale (their price is 
higher!)


Wow -- you are a terrific resource!  Now if I can just 
scrape the money together (it is a pricey book, which I 
realize isn't your fault), it would make a terrific addition 
to my library.  If you still have a copy when my birthday 
rolls around, I just might be able to get it.


The Read book on Pictographic Score Notation looks very 
interesting as well.


Thanks for pointing out my mistake!

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Re: [Finale] Beams

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Tue, June 1, 2010 10:48 am, dhbailey wrote:

But to get to my statement which you quoted, I'm not sure
why it should bother you.  It seems like a tautology that if
the performers don't understand the notation they won't
perform the music correctly.


I'm talking about a willing ignorance. Karkoschka's book came out 40 years
ago, and it was encyclopedic -- a summing up of what was already in use. Any



Unfortunately, the book is currently unavailable in either 
English or German, which makes learning these things a bit 
more difficult these days.  There aren't even any used 
copies available through Amazon


Also out of print is Garnder Read's work, "Sourcebook of 
Proposed Music Notation Reforms" from 1985.


Are there any currently available books which cover the same 
material?  I'd love to get one to broaden my knowledge of 
such things, both for my own musical usage as well as for 
making myself a better teacher.


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Re: [Finale] Beams

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
[snip]


Why would they have to do that? Counting is counting, isn't it? Doesn't make
sense to me.



True -- but suggesting that "counting is counting" assumes 
that all musicians are able to think of the counting while 
playing, which isn't true in my experience.  I can count my 
way through just about anything, mainly because I'm a "take 
it apart and figure out how it works" kind of person who has 
spent countless hours working to be able to do that while 
I'm playing.  And I've also spent countless hours helping 
young students learn counting (I'm adamant about teaching 
them that right from the very beginning of music lessons).


What I've seen over the years is that some people grasp the 
concept of counting rhythms right away and their analytical 
brains can think about that while playing.  But I've also 
seen that a huge number of people can't conceive of 
counting, no matter what sort of repetitions or explanations 
or demonstrations I use.  I'll talk a student through 
analyzing a rhythm, asking them questions such as "how many 
8th notes are equal to a quarter note?" to which they may 
answer correctly, yet when I ask the question like this: "So 
a quarter note is equal to how many 8th notes?" they are 
completely at a loss to give me an answer.  Sometimes I'll 
ask those questions back to back and get an answer to the 
first question and a blank stare of confusion to the second 
question.


And often for those that I can get to answer a question 
correctly in one short exercise we're working on, when I 
point to the same rhythm in the next exercise and ask them 
how to count that, they haven't got a clue because they 
can't see that while the melody might be different, the 
rhythm is the same.  Obscure those rhythms by beaming to the 
phrasing and the number of people who can't count grows.


Thus one person may be able to say "I can count!" while 
another person will look at the same written line of music 
and have no clue where the beats start nor how to get 
through the rhythms.



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Re: [Finale] Beams

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Tue, June 1, 2010 6:45 am, dhbailey wrote:

It's all well and good for a composer to feel that some new
notational device is necessary for correct communication of
what he/she wants the music to sound like, but if nobody
among the performers understands it, will the music ever be
performed correctly?


You and I often agree, but this bothers me.



Actually, I think we might agree on this more than my post 
indicates.  You mention younger performers who are quite 
adept at working with new notational devices, and so they 
represent the leading edge of how what used to be marginal 
is slowly creeping into the mainstream, and with the 
commitment of teachers to help their students understand 
what used to be new notational devices, they will be found 
in more and more published music, more and more manuscript 
music, and will be performed correctly by more and more 
musicians until there will come a time when most people who 
read music will be amazed that there had ever been a time 
that such things created problems for performers.


But to get to my statement which you quoted, I'm not sure 
why it should bother you.  It seems like a tautology that if 
the performers don't understand the notation they won't 
perform the music correctly.  Gradually the number of 
performers who do understand the notation is growing so that 
more and more music using that notation is being played 
correctly.  However if you put something that the performers 
don't understand (I include conductor under the term 
musicians) some aspect of the notation, then who is to teach 
it to them?  As the younger generation which is comfortable 
with these devices gain a larger foothold in the more 
prestigious musical organizations (the ones which many of 
the lesser organizations work to emulate) and as more and 
more conductors are comfortable with these new devices, they 
will be able to teach the older members how to intepret 
them.  And the older members will either adapt or retire.


I share your frustration that notational devices which have 
been common since before 1970 haven't been incorporated into 
Finale or Sibelius, and with unicode fonts which no longer 
have the 256 character limitation of ASCII fonts there's no 
excuse for their continued absence.  Just as there's no 
excuse for the continued inability of either program to have 
truly independent meters and truly independent barlines 
among the parts -- MusicPrinterPlus could do it back in the 
days of DOS!


One of the things which often bothers me about new 
notational devices is when there isn't adequate (or any!) 
explanation on the part of the composer to help those who 
are encountering them for the first time to understand them 
better, as if the composer assumes that because he/she knows 
how they're supposed to work, everybody else should already 
know, too.


Those who truly move the art of notation and music forward 
work to ensure that they are understood so that those who 
perform their music are comfortable with it and grow in the 
process.


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Re: [Finale] Beams

[dhbailey]

Graeme Gerrard wrote:

This raises an important issue in the development of notation.
If  a program such as Finale can only do a subset of things or things only in a 
defined way, that helps to determine what becomes canonic.
Innovations that composers might have initiated are restrained by an industry 
model that is about chasing the past.
Quite a lot of the discussion here is about doing things conventionally.




True, but as far as I'm concerned, my desire to do most of 
my engraving in a conventional way has less to do with how 
easy it is to do it in Finale or Sibelius but rather has 
much much more to do with the conventional knowledge of the 
musicians who will be reading and performing the music.


It's all well and good for a composer to feel that some new 
notational device is necessary for correct communication of 
what he/she wants the music to sound like, but if nobody 
among the performers understands it, will the music ever be 
performed correctly?  Of course, people pushing the 
boundaries of notational conventions have gotten us to the 
point we are at today, but these weren't single new 
inventions but rather a new idea which caught on with other 
composers/engravers/copiests and which became widely known 
in a fairly short period of time so that they truly became 
new conventions.


As for software which is chasing the past, that's because 
that's what the developers have as a guide -- if one wants 
notation of the future, with far more graphic 
representations than the traditional staves and notes/rests, 
etc., there are always graphics programs which will allow 
one to do anything except for listen to playback.


I realize that the ideal will happen when a program such as 
Finale or Sibelius finally incorporates a drawing module so 
that we can combine traditional notation with anything else 
we want to put on the page.


But to get back to the main point -- convention just to 
conform to what software will allow is ridiculous, but 
convention to conform to what the performers understand is a 
bit more pragmatic and realistic, in my opinion.


I am all in favor of lobbying MakeMusic and Sibelius to 
incorporate drawing modules so that we are not simply bound 
by the traditional notation of the past 300 years, as long 
as they don't abandon the past to satisfy those who have 
their own personal views of the future.



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Re: [Finale] Beams

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Mon, May 31, 2010 3:25 pm, Graeme Gerrard wrote:

If  a program such as Finale can only do a subset of things or things only in
a defined way, that helps to determine what becomes canonic.
Innovations that composers might have initiated are restrained by an industry
model that is about chasing the past.


This has been precisely my argument for more than 15 years. I have students
who don't even *know* about notation that exists outside the parameters of
Sibelius (which they're required to use).

As they say, don't get me started...



On the other hand, as their teacher, you have a golden 
opportunity to knock down the walls of confinement which the 
notation of the past have constructed around new music. 
Nobody can know everything before getting to a certain 
teacher, so teach your students about those notational 
devices which Sibelius and Finale don't allow, and get them 
to lobby the companies to include them in future versions. 
The larger the outcry for something becomes, the sooner it 
gets included.  Or so they say . . .



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Re: [Finale] Da capo roadmap

[dhbailey]

dershem wrote:
[snip]


There are always arguments on either side.  Use what works best and 
causes the fewest potential problems.

[snip]

Well, if you're going to think logically . . .  ;-)

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Re: [Finale] Da capo roadmap

[dhbailey]

Patrick Sheehan wrote:

Da Capos and D.S.'s should be outlawed.  Why not just write it out again?
Less confusion, I say.



You don't play outdoor concerts where breezes make limiting 
the number of pages open for any one piece a good thing, do you?


Da Capo and D.S. should provide no more confusion than any 
other element of notation.  The only reason that working 
with older music, printed or in manuscript, makes them 
confusing is that the people who were writing the music 
never expected it to be played 200 or 300 years later and 
wrote it out in a manner that the musicians of their day 
would already expect.


And there's a very good chance that the composer expected to 
be part of any performance so it would be very simple to 
tell everybody how the road map works, just like jazz and 
blues bands do now for head arrangements:  Everybody on the 
head, then tenor, trumpet, alto, piano, bass, drums and then 
everybody on the head again -- one, two, one, two, three, four.


Imagine what sort of nightmares musicologists in the 30th 
century will have trying to decipher how those lead-sheets 
would have been performed!


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:
On my side - I keep one eye open for good reasons to start the Sib 
learning curve. So far, I haven't seen them.  Could still happen, but 
not so far.


I hadn't seen a reason to start the sib learning curve when 
I initially purchased the program and installed it and found 
that it was very alien to me, being a die-hard Finale user 
at the time.  Then one day I had an "aha!" moment when I 
realized that I hadn't given Sibelius a real try, viewing 
everything I tried to do in Sibelius through a finale-user 
filter.  That "aha!" moment came when I told myself to 
simply sit down with Sibelius as if it were a brand new 
program that I had no previous knowledge about, do the 
tutorials, read the manual, start with very simple projects 
and gradually increase their complexity as I got more 
comfortable with the program and not promise any results to 
anybody until I felt comfortable with the program.  That's 
the same advice I have given over the years to new Finale 
users on this list and on the finale group at yahoogroups, 
when they would complain about how complex the learning 
curve for Finale is.


And once I started learning Sibelius using that approach I 
found that it truly is a better program for lots of things, 
just as Finale remains the better program for lots of things.


And when I find one or the other program seeming to be the 
better program for doing something, I try the same thing in 
the other program to see if it's just that I misunderstood 
the necessary procedure.  Sometimes that's it, and sometimes 
my initial impression of something really being easier in 
one program than the other remains unchanged.


But now I am more versatile as an engraver and have two 
tools with which to work when clients request one or the 
other.  Not that I'm buried in engraving work or anything, 
but I did just take on a project for $1000 which the client 
has requested I work in Sibelius.  And given the nature of 
the project that would have been the program I would have 
started it in anyway, so it makes life so much easier.


But if all anybody on this list does is their own work, 
there's no need to investigate Sibelius as long as you can 
do what you want in Finale.  It's only when one runs into 
the possibility of doing work for clients which originates 
in either program that one needs to be proficient in both.


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:

John Howell wrote:


Hardly a spy!  I've monitored the FinaleList much longer than I've 
been on the SibList, since our Department adopted Finale before being 
forced to drop it when our students were ready to show up with new OSX 
computers.  And I find the different discussions very instructive.  
The problems discussed and the wish-lists are considerably different 
on the two lists.


My problem is that I'm a user, but I'll never, EVER be a programmer, 
so even a simple comment like "make a new text style" leaves me 
wondering, "HOW"?!!!  People who can write their own patches and 
invent their own workarounds forget that most of us can not.


John


Yeah, that was a joke, because I was pretty sure I remembered you as 
being the one who brought up the 5-verse limit in Sib.  I'm really more 
of a spy on the Sib list.  I got on that list when I was considering 
switching because of a specific problem, but that problem turned out to 
be non-Finale related.  I bought Sib anyway, during the $80 trade-up 
special, but never loaded it.


Although, I must say that I bite my lip on the Sib list and don't log in 
and gloat whenever some applicable Sib question is asked - I don't jump 
in and say "Are you kidding?  That's so easy in Finale!"  One or two of 
the Sib users here will do that here, on occasion, and it's not really 
helpful if that poster is not conversant with both programs, just as my 
comment on the non-existent Sib 5-verse limit was not helpful.


When I started using Sibelius more intensely, I, too would 
often think "that's so much easier in Finale" but most of 
what I thought that about turned out simply to be that I 
didn't understand how to do it in Sibelius yet.


But certain things remain easier in Finale, like not having 
courtesy key signatures appear at the end of the previous 
line when creating key changes.


But other things are easier in Sibelius, so it truly is (in 
my opinion) a pretty even neck-and-neck horse race between 
the two.


For some things I fire up Finale and for others I fire up 
Sibelius, probably a bit more than Finale, but I haven't 
abandoned it.


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Anyone notice on the new features page they have fonts listed twice? On the 
left they say new fonts then on the right they have alphanotes which also 
happens to be mentioned on the new fonts page..

Seems like they needed some padding there or something and had to list fonts 
twice



I was quite impressed with their mention of over 375 sounds 
from Garritan, until I actually looked at the PDF file which 
lists them all and over half of them are different 
percussion sounds or sound effects.  Still no alto flute or 
bass flute in the list, but now there's a flute section. 
Still sucks if one writes music for flute choir.



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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

Phillips, Justin wrote:

Hi Ryan,

We do run discount pricing promotions for 2009 and 2010
users upgrading to Finale 2011.  If you did not receive
an email this morning with this information, definitely
contact customer support at the link below and we can get
you signed up to receive special offers for discounted
pricing.

http://makemusic.custhelp.com/app/ask

Christopher,

Thanks for the list.  I saw this on the Finale forum as
well.  I'll take a look at those items and will confirm
or deny their existence in 2011.




Thank you for offering to do that, Justin.


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 25 May 2010 at 11:27, Ryan wrote:


I would be much more inclined to purchase 2011 if they offered a
tiered pricing structure. The if you're upgrading from 2010, you pay a
lower price than someone upgrading from 2009, etc etc.


I must be missing something. If you're upgrading from 2010, you pay 
$119.95, and from all earlier versions, $169.95. That's tiered 
pricing. 

It may not be the pricing *you'd* like, but it's exactly what you've 
asked for.




And if you order now, it's only $99.95.

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Re: [Finale] Finale 2011 preordering?

[dhbailey]

Lora Crighton wrote:

--- On Tue, 5/25/10, Christopher Smith  wrote:

Click on the video to see how lyric entry and spacing is
improved. Does that seem like enough to you guys who do
choral music?



After many years of not bothering with the upgrades - I have 2006 - I'm seriously thinking about it now.  



Upgrading 5 versions will most likely make this a great 
upgrade for you from 2006.


As an annual upgrade from 2010 for $120, it's rather meager 
pickings for my notational needs from all that I can see.



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Re: [Finale] print forces update layout??

[dhbailey]

dhbailey wrote:

Darcy James Argue wrote:
That's a bad kludge. Find another, better way to get the result you 
want. In recent versions, printing forces an update layout. This is a 
good and sensible thing.







I'm sorry but I have to disagree that printing forcing an update layout 
with no user control is not a good and sensible thing -- it's software 
trying to babysit us so that we don't have to think for ourselves.


oops -- I meant to say:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree that printing forcing an 
update layout
with no user control is a good and sensible thing -- it's 
software
trying to babysit us so that we don't have to think for 
ourselves.





Once I get the layout as I want it I shouldn't have to "lock layout" 
just so that an automatic feature of the software which has been added 
recently can help save someone else who isn't smart enough to update the 
layout for him/herself when it should be done.


A computer program should allow us to simply print what we've done when 
we click "Print" without having to worry whether it's going to undo what 
may have been hours of nudging to get things just right.





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Re: [Finale] print forces update layout??

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Fri, May 21, 2010 2:09 am, Darcy James Argue wrote:

That's a bad kludge. Find another, better way to get the result you want. In
recent versions, printing forces an update layout. This is a good and sensible
thing.


Ouch! That explains why my "DO NOT UPDATE LAYOUT" graphical scores don't work
right anymore.



Ain't progress grand?  ;-)


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Re: [Finale] print forces update layout??

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:

On May 20, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

That's a bad kludge. Find another, better way to get the result you 
want. In recent versions, printing forces an update layout. This is a 
good and sensible thing.


Ugh.  OK, well at least that answers my question.  Thanks.

I see why they'd want printing to force and update layout by default, so 
that people don't waste paper because they forgot, but I wish there were 
an option to turn it off for people like me who want to trick Finale 
into doing things it doesn't naturally do.




Isn't that "forced update layout" supposed to be why the 
developers created the "Automatic Update Layout" option to 
begin with?


That should be sufficient for people who want the layout 
updated automatically, including when printing, so they 
don't ever have to think about it again.


And for those who want "automatic update layout" option 
turned off, that should be sufficient for the program to 
never update the layout (including at printing time) unless 
the user specifically updates the layout manually.



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Re: [Finale] print forces update layout??

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

That's a bad kludge. Find another, better way to get the result you want. In 
recent versions, printing forces an update layout. This is a good and sensible 
thing.



I'm sorry but I have to disagree that printing forcing an 
update layout with no user control is not a good and 
sensible thing -- it's software trying to babysit us so that 
we don't have to think for ourselves.


Once I get the layout as I want it I shouldn't have to "lock 
layout" just so that an automatic feature of the software 
which has been added recently can help save someone else who 
isn't smart enough to update the layout for him/herself when 
it should be done.


A computer program should allow us to simply print what 
we've done when we click "Print" without having to worry 
whether it's going to undo what may have been hours of 
nudging to get things just right.


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Re: [Finale] spacing with layers again

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:
That looks like standard Finale behavior to me.  I would expect to have 
to add space in a situation like that.


Finale's awareness of collisions between layers is incomplete.



And inexplicable after all these years, all these versions 
and all these development dollars.



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Re: [Finale] part names

[dhbailey]

trumpe...@verizon.net wrote:

I'm using Finale 2007 and have already written a big band score but when I look 
at the parts they have no names in the upper left hand corner. This is usually 
established when using Document Wizard but everything is done and I see no way 
of even putting the names in individually using the text tool.

The other problem is the measure numbers have to be positioned the same way for 
score and parts. I'm trying to position the measure numbers to the left in 
parts and centered in the score.

Thanks in advance---Brian


You can put the instrument names in using a text box. 
Create a text box where you want it to appear on the page 
and in the Text menu choose the Inserts option and then you 
should see one for Part/Score Name -- click it and you 
should get what you want.


Regarding measure numbers, you can't have them independently 
placed in the parts from where they are in the score, but 
you can create 2 different measure number regions, defined 
exactly the same except for the placement of the numbers and 
in the score you set the left-aligned region to begin 
appearing after the 200th measure (or any random number 
higher than the total number of measures in the score) and 
then in the parts you change that so the centered measure 
numbers start appearing after that high number and the 
left-aligned numbers to appear starting with measure 1 (or 
whatever you want.)


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Re: [Finale] Repeats on D.C. al Coda

[dhbailey]

Adam Taylor wrote:
After fiddling with this for nearly half an hour and inventing some 
rather colourful swear words directed at Finale, I've decided to tap the 
collected wisdom of the list.


I am nearly finished my second  Sonatine for marimba. In the final 
movement, I have a D.C. al Coda situation. However, in the section 
encompassed by the D.C., there is a first and second ending repeat.


||: part 1 :|| part 2  To Coda | part 3  D.C. al Coda||
(+)Coda system ||

The coda system displays fine, and the target measures are fine, 
however, I cannot for the life of me get it to take the repeat on the 
D.C.. It always skips to the second ending, when I want it to be played 
twice. Is there a setting I'm missing?




You can have the 1st ending set to repeat on specific 
numbered passes -- you would set it to play on pass 1 and 
pass 3.  You set this for the opening of the 1st ending bracket.


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Re: [Finale] spacing with dotted notes

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:
That would be "The Art of Music Engraving & Processing" or I think the 
complete title might be "Teach Yourself the Art of Music Engraving & 
Processing" by Ted Ross, the 3rd edition I have is copyright 1987. It is 
widely considered to be one of the leading references for points of 
standard notation.


I think I got my copy from NCP Imaging

http://www.npcimaging.com/books/TedRoss.htm



That's NPC Imaging:  http://www.npcimaging.com -- click on 
the Bookstore link in the upper left, but be sure to look 
around at all the fantastic stuff he has available in a 
single web-site.  He's done a terrific job compiling tools 
for music notation (software, hardware, reference books, 
scores).


He's got other books related to music notation as well. 
It's funny that everybody puts so much faith in what Ted 
Ross says, yet he was an engraver for Hansen House, and 
their publications (I don't even know if they're still in 
existence) were never among the highest quality of printed 
music.  However, he is the only person in recent memory who 
actually wrote a book about engraving music, so he has 
become a de facto standard-bearer.


I find that he also doesn't cover a lot of what's needed for 
clear engraving so I often refer to Gardner Read's book 
Music Notation and to Kurt Stone's book Music Notation in 
the 20th Century.  Nick Carter has those available as well. 
 And for composers/arrangers/editors, Andrew Stiller's 
Handbook of Instrumentation remains an excellent reference work.


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Re: [Finale] Hours of work lost -

[dhbailey]

Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:

Yes, that is scary all right. Last year I lost a whole
score. I only had the original and the backup. Both got
corrupted. Thanks for replying. I'm "saving as" with
names like myFile1, myFile2, etc., as David Fenton
suggested. Harold



Additionally, you might consider turning off the automatic 
backup and the autosave functions, and doing your own 
automatic backup where when you do the "save as" function, 
you save it into two different locations in case it's a 
hard-drive problem.


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Re: [Finale] Hours of work lost -

[dhbailey]

Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:

Yes, I do have a copy "saved as". I said that on my post. It gives the same error. All three files 
give the same error: the main file, the ".asv" copy and the "saved as" copy. It seems as 
if although the file was still open, it was already corrupted when both copies were made.



Have you rebooted your computer since that started happening?

I don't know Macs at all, but I do recall reading about 
having Mac users "trash their preferences" as a solution to 
several different problems, and perhaps that might help 
here?  Just a thought.


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Re: [Finale] OT - a matter of notation

[dhbailey]

Graeme Gerrard wrote:
[snip]


Some people seem to like the repeats re - presented in the letter notation:
AA BB BB CC
AA BB BB CC
DD
AA BB BB CC

The redundancy offends me a bit.
What do people think?  The redundancy is good or confusing?


The answer is a resounding "it depends."  For people who 
find it clearer, it's a good thing.  For people who find it 
confusing, it's a bad thing.


Since you're making these for your fellow recorder players, 
you should do what's clearest for them.


Personally, I'd leave the repeat signs in the music, label 
each section clearly A B C whatever, and then print in a 
clear, can't be overlooked text-box above each piece the 
basic map without the repetitions unless a section (with 
it's repeat) is to be played twice.


So your lines above I would mark like this, although I might 
be tempted to write it all on a single line:


A B B C
A B B C
D
A B B C

I'd also add a clear "Take all repeats all the time."

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Re: [Finale] Why doesn't Finale play the instrument I want?

[dhbailey]

Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote:

In a score for flute, clarinet, guitar, piano and double bass, I set midi 
instrument  flute (GM 74) to play the flute staff and midi instrument clarinet 
(GM 72)to play the clarinet. However I hear only trumpets on both staffs. 
Guitar sounds right. It is ironic that playback is set to SmartMusic SoftSinth! 
 Any ideas why? This happens every once in a while, and sometimes it gets right 
sooner or later, but I have no idea of what is going on. Any help will be 
appreciated. Thank you.
Harold


One thing which often causes unintended results such as this 
is if you have used expressions which you "created" by 
duplicating existing ones and then edited so they're 
different.  If the original expression which was duplicated 
had been defined for playback and that playback definition 
was for a patch change to trumpet, that might explain 
things.  Check any expressions you might have placed at the 
start of only the two staves in question.


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Re: [Finale] Tuplets Default

[dhbailey]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

I have given up on notating anything in compound meter. It is much too 
difficult for players to sight-read for anything of even moderate rhythmic 
complexity in such meters. Notating 6/8 figures in 2/4 (w/triplets), or 12/8 
figures 4/4 (w/triplets), has the *huge* benefit of visually showing where all 
downbeats lie. Otherwise, everyone ends up having to pencil in the beat map 
underneath the music.

In duple meter, for sight-reading purposes, rhythms are binary -- they fall either *on 
the beat* or *off the beat.* (Players will subdivide "the beat" as necessary, 
as long the subdivisions are binary.) In triple meter, there are *three* possible 
rhythmic subdivisions per beat, which makes sight-reading much more difficult. But 
reading complex/syncopated compound rhythms becomes easier if all three beat positions 
are bounded under a triplet bracket, so that the downbeats, at least, are instantly clear.



As with so much of musical notation, the ease of reading the 
music depends largely on the musicians' familiarity with the 
notational devices.


I believe Darcy writes mostly in the jazz idiom, so even 
though the rhythms may be binary, where that second half of 
the beat is placed is anything but clear to people not used 
to reading and playing in the jazz idiom and all of its 
sub-genres of uptempo, ballad, medium swing, jazz waltz, 
etc.  And since most jazz music isn't written/played in a 
true compound meter it's easy to understand why those who 
play it most of the time would have difficulty interpreting 
that.


But for more classically oriented musicians compound meter 
is common enough that they usually have no problem with it, 
reading or playing.


As a matter of fact, if the subdivision of the beat is in 
thirds throughout an entire work, it's so much easier to 
read it in compound meter than to see a page loaded with 
triplet brackets when there are no beats which have duple 
subdivisions.


I really have no problem with anybody deciding either to use 
or to abandon compound meter notation, but I just wanted to 
speak out in support of compound meter, lest anybody who is 
fairly new to thinking about notational issues read Darcy's 
message and think "Wow, that makes so much sense, I'll do 
that too!"


What Darcy says makes great sense in his situation, but 
would not be very sensible for notating Offenbach's 
"Barcarolle" or Adams's "O Holy Night" or Sousa's 
"Washington Post" any of the other compound meter 
compositions commonly performed.


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Re: [Finale] key signature fix

[dhbailey]

Ryan wrote:

I've forgotten the cure for this:
Going from Eb Major to G Minor key signatures. Finale displays three
naturals to cancel the original key then two flats for the new key. I just
want the new key signature with one natural to cancel Ab.
I know it has to do with going from the major mode to minor mode. Which box
do I uncheck to get what I want and where is it? I'm in 2010.
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What happens if you don't tell Finale you're going to G 
minor, but instead ask it to change the key to Bb major?




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Re: [Finale] O.T. Bar numbers

[dhbailey]

Aaron Rabushka wrote:
Not meaning to sounds too nit-picky, but if it's full, is it a pickup 
measure?




The only way to really know for sure is to settle the 
argument over how many angels can dance on a pin and then 
survey them all and if a majority say one way or the other, 
then the matter is settled.  ;-)


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Re: [Finale] Courtesy Key signature

[dhbailey]

Pierre Bailleul wrote:

Do you know the way to add naturals before the courtesy key signature at end of 
staff system ?
(Fin 2010b Win)
Thanks.
Pierre
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In the Document Options, on the page for Key Signature, 
there's an option to Cancel Outgoing Key Signature.  That 
might do what you want.


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Re: [Finale] TAN: minor, now major (well, maybe sergeant- major) rant

[dhbailey]

J D Thomas wrote:
As someone said yesterday, there's no way Sibelius will ever open Finale 
files.  But lately I've done several xml transfers from FinMac 2K7 to 
Sibelius 6.  And it's not as bad as one might think.  Granted, there is 
work to be done, and it will take some time.  But I was pleasantly 
surprised.  I've use the built-in xml export as well as the latest Dolet 
plugin, and the Dolet is vastly superior on all counts.  At least in 
FinMac 2K7.  That's the latest version I have.  The plugin gets much 
more detail than the built-in xml command.




The reason for that is that MusicXML has advanced in the 3 
years since Fin2K7 was released.  People using MusicXML 
export from Finale2K10 should find much of the detail you 
find with the Dolet plug-in.


It's close to becoming the lingua franca of music 
applications, and it's something the 
music-and-computers-industry has needed for a very long long 
time.  Now if more people would lobby their favorite music 
applications to include MusicXML import/export it will 
become ever more pervasive, and we'll truly be able to take 
a file from a sequencing program, use the same file in a 
notation program and get excellent results and make whatever 
edits we want and then take that file to yet some third 
application and then eventually back to the original 
sequencing program for wonderful playback, and lose nothing 
with each transfer of the file from application to application.


It's close, but it's not quite there yet.  Deeper industry 
adoption is necessary before that will happen.



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Re: [Finale] TAN: minor, now major (well, maybe sergeant- major) rant

[dhbailey]

Just to set the record straight -- the Sibelius group at 
yahoogroups was NOT started by Sibelius.  It was started and 
is maintained by Kelly's Computers and Music.  Daniel is 
just another subscriber like every other member of that 
group.  The only difference is that he's there with the 
blessing of the company and can speak officially for the 
company.


Your desire to simply open Finale files in Sibelius will 
never happen because Finale doesn't release the file format 
details.  But as each new version of MusicXML gets released 
the ability to transparently move files between the two 
programs gets better and better.


In Finale's favor, it comes with the ability to both export 
and import MusicXML format (which provides for cross-version 
sharing of files) while Sibelius only comes with the ability 
to import MusicXML format (to make it easier to move Finale 
files across to Sibelius).  In order to move from Sibelius 
you have to buy the Dolet plug-in from Recordare in order to 
export as MusicXML for import into Finale.


David H. Bailey



Eric Dannewitz wrote:

This is one point in Sibelius's favor. They have someone who actively
answers questions and participates in discussions with users.
MakeMusic? You have to go through their "system" which really doesn't
make it easier for anyone.

I think if MakeMusic wanted to increase the perception that it is
concerned about users and its products, it would either start a list
like Sibelius has on Yahoogroups, or Officially bless this list and
have someone field questions. complaints and concernsbugs and
potential new features. Etc. I mean, I don't know where they keep
coming up with great "NEW" features like another Font, Improved
Scanning (shouldn't that just be included with maintenance updates?)
and note spacing that works right..finally.

I for one would jump ship to Sibelius if Sibelius had a way to just
OPEN Finale documents into Sibelius. Converting them into Sibelius is
just not going to be worth it to me, and take forever to do.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 11:55 AM, dhbailey
 wrote:

He didn't just join -- he's been here a while, based on how I interpret his
reply.  If he's not been scared off before, I doubt we'll scare him off now.




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Re: [Finale] TAN: minor, now major (well, maybe sergeant- major) rant

[dhbailey]

Ray Horton wrote:

Hey, guys, wait at least a week or two before you scare him off!




Except that Justin said in his original reply to my message 
that MakeMusic *does* monitor these lists, implying that 
they've been doing it for a while.  Which means he's not 
really new to this list, he just decided to speak up.


Which begs the question about why, if MakeMusic really does 
monitor lists like this, why the complaints we've all made 
about legitimate problems using Finale go unheeded.


He didn't just join -- he's been here a while, based on how 
I interpret his reply.  If he's not been scared off before, 
I doubt we'll scare him off now.



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Re: [Finale] TAN: minor rant

[dhbailey]

Mark D Lew wrote:
So I ordered my upgrade tonight. Afterward the webpage asked me to 
participate in a survey, so I said OK.


On the first page, it asks: Which Finale 2010 feature was the biggest 
reason for your upgrade?

- Export lyrics
- Measure Numbers
- Percussion Notation
- Music Education Worksheets
- More Garritan Sounds
- Chords
- Easier Scanning
- VST/AU Effects
- Import/Export Graphics (.jpeg, .png etc.)
- Automatic Rehearsal Marks
- Broadway Copyist hand-written font

None of those had anything whatsoever to do with my upgrade, so I didn't 
check any.  But the stupid survey won't let me proceed without picking one.


Screw that. Now I'm not going to finish their stupid survey.

Pretty lousy survey design ... I was actually willing to comply, but not 
if I can't do so without them putting words in my mouth.




What?  You mean you didn't want to become a 
marketing-department tool to overpower the developers with? 
 I'm shocked!


If MakeMusic truly cared what drove the purchasing decisions 
of its customers (both new and long-time) it would simply 
monitor all the on-line groups such as this one, filter out 
the most common complaints (including long-standing ones) 
and actually do something about them, without the need for 
any "we'll force you to give us one of our answers" surveys 
which are truly meaningless.


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Re: [Finale] Noteflight

[dhbailey]

Chris Bell wrote:

http://www.noteflight.com/

What do we think of this?


I think it's great. I've used it a lot with my 12-15 year-old students, 
especially those at schools that do not have any budget for Finale or 
Sibelius.

It's free, online (which for some kids, makes it 'cooler'' to use).

/ Cb
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MuseScore is also free, but you download it and run it on 
your computer so you don't have to have access to the 
internet to use it, and all the data files remain under your 
control.



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Re: [Finale] Dissertation Work Guidelines/Advice?

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Tue Mar 30, at TuesdayMar 30 9:49 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


Last I checked, UMI PDFs of dissertations were graphics of scans of
the printed page, not produced from the text of the document. Even if
they *were* produced from the printed document, specifying dpi of
source graphics is not something any institution would be doing, any
more than they would be restricting Ph.D. candidates to using MS Word
to produce their dissertations.



My wife's Master's thesis, completed last year, REQUIRED her to submit a 
copy on MS Word. The reasoning is that a searchable archive copy will be 
created (I imagine in PDF) from her file. I think scans of printed pages 
are for old documents that don't exist in electronic form, but they 
still type in the abstract for the search engines.


She also had to submit three paper copies, with everything specified 
from the typeface to the weight and finish of the paper. It was quite an 
ordeal.




But you can create MSWord format documents from a variety of 
sources:  WordPerfect, OpenOffice and others.


So while the format may have been required, the tool to 
create that format wasn't required.



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Re: [Finale] Noteflight

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 30 Mar 2010 at 15:59, dhbailey wrote:

I won't use the internet for storing my 
backups -- nothing's truly and verifiably secure on the 
internet and nothing's to prevent some such company from 
going out of business just at the time when I need to 
restore those files to my hard drive.


You seem to be under the impression that one backup is ever 
sufficient. It's not. In my 20 or so years of work as a computer 
tech, the only time anybody has ever lost anything that wasn't 
recoverable from a backup was because multiple levels of backup 
failed.


To me the perfect example of this was the failure of the Roosevelt 
Island Tram in NYC a few years ago, where riders were stranded 
hanging in the tram over the river for hours and had to be rescued. 
The tram had a main motor and two backups. The main motor failed, and 
the backup failed. The second backup was in the shop for repairs, so 
people ended up stuck.


Two levels of backup failed.

You are not safely backed up if you have only one backup strategy -- 
have at least two if not more. And any loss of one backup should be 
irrelevant.





Did I say that I only had one backup strategy?  What gave 
you that impression?  All I said was that online backup 
storage at companies in an industry with huge business 
failure rates wasn't part of that strategy.


Multiple hard-drive backups on-site as well as multiple 
copies stored off-site are part of my strategy.  But 
trusting that data to industries which may be gone when I 
need access the most isn't part of my strategy.


And while I can see your logic that the loss of any one 
backup should be irrelevant, if several backups fail for 
some reason and the last chance is an on-line business which 
folds the day before I try to retrieve my data, that won't 
be very helpful will it?  And yet I will have spent all that 
money over the months/years paying them for the storage of 
my data.


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Re: [Finale] Noteflight

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Tue Mar 30, at TuesdayMar 30 9:30 PM, John Howell wrote:

And just this afternoon I learned from the prof. who's been teaching 
Apprec for many years that he's using a totally on-line course.  It's 
from a company that handles everything on line, there's no textbook, 
and the students just buy two (expensive!) CDs, register on line, and 
everything including tests is there, not on my computer at all.  As it 
happens he's meeting with people from that company tomorrow, and I'm 
going to talk with them.


I may not agree with the educational approach, the kinds of 
assignments and tests they have, and so on (although I'm not 
pre-judging them), but if it'll let me kick-start a new class instead 
of forcing me to re-invent the wheel, I'll probably sign on.  I can 
always pull out at a later time.




My college is pushing the on-line thing very heavily, and I (and other 
colleagues) are resisting.


On the plus side, you can put listening lists online (yay!) and 
assignments, so the students have NO excuse for not knowing what to do. 
Presently, we have to assign library listening, or we have one teacher 
who (illegally) loads the students' iPods from his office computer with 
the listening lists. Having all the listening from one source, with the 
licenses paid, is a real advantage.


On the con side, students are trying to take advantage of online 
materials being available to skip classes entirely. Some students have 
insisted that our class notes be made available online, or given to them 
electronically by email or in hard copy, as if it is their right (yes, 
we had a student try to assert that) to read our own personal class 
notes and thus make up for not coming to class. The times that teachers 
are being asked to be online for chat discussions is prohibitively 
time-intensive, and of course it is WAY slower to type than to speak. I 
think music may be one of the last subjects that is taught more 
effectively in person. This assertion makes me fairly unpopular among 
the college administration.




Keep fighting the good fight, Christopher.

It's amazing but more and more so-called educational 
professionals that are unfortunately in charge of higher 
education (and all education in the U.S.) are equating 
information with knowledge, and so they figure that if the 
information is made available on-line, the knowledge will 
obviously flow as well.


Nothing replaces face-to-face discussion and lecture, where 
the student can actually ask questions and discuss things 
with a real-live person.


Education is so much more than information hand-off but that 
seems to be getting lost in the race to cram the most 
information into the shortest amount of time.


Information is *not* knowledge!


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Re: [Finale] Noteflight

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

At 3:59 PM -0400 3/30/10, dhbailey wrote:


Any program which doesn't reside on my computer and the data files of 
which I store in my own location separate from the vissicitudes of web 
businesses failing is not anything I'm interested in.


For music files I certainly agree.  But I just ran into something that I 
may be interested in.  (No additional Finale, notation, or allied 
content; you may safely delete NOW.)


I've just been assigned to teach an online section of Music Appreciation 
next fall.  (I've been teaching Music History for about 18 years, so the 
content isn't the problem.)  But I have a very full summer since my 
Music History textbook is out of print and I'm having to switch to a new 
one and revise all my materials, PLUS the university is moving from the 
Blackboard course management software to a newly-developed one called 
Scholar (a local variation on Sakai), and that will also be a big drag.


And just this afternoon I learned from the prof. who's been teaching 
Apprec for many years that he's using a totally on-line course.  It's 
from a company that handles everything on line, there's no textbook, and 
the students just buy two (expensive!) CDs, register on line, and 
everything including tests is there, not on my computer at all.  As it 
happens he's meeting with people from that company tomorrow, and I'm 
going to talk with them.


I may not agree with the educational approach, the kinds of assignments 
and tests they have, and so on (although I'm not pre-judging them), but 
if it'll let me kick-start a new class instead of forcing me to 
re-invent the wheel, I'll probably sign on.  I can always pull out at a 
later time.


So there's good and bad in everything--but then we already knew that!

John





John,  I'm so sorry you have to teach an on-line course.  I 
see little of value in them.  My wife has been taking early 
childhood education courses the past few years and has taken 
2 on-line courses, and they're not really courses, they're 
just "jump through these hoops successfully and we'll give 
you the credit" sessions.  Even the on-line discussions, 
such as they were, were very stilted and hardly like the 
face-to-face discussions in actual classrooms.


I hate this trend and I think it totally sucks as it removes 
the major responsibility for the teaching from the teachers 
and makes the students, in effect, pay TWICE for being 
taught the same course.  They pay once through their tuition 
to the university (which pays the professors' salaries for 
essentially being on-line baby-sitters while the software 
does the actual teaching) and then they pay again when they 
have to buy the, as you describe it, expensive software or 
access code.


And in addition, when there is a textbook as part of the 
package, the textbook publishing industry (which needs 
congressional investigation in my opinion) has found a way 
to make single-use disposable, non-reusable textbooks -- My 
daughter's roommate took a course at URI this past Fall, 
which my daughter is taking this Spring.  Her roommate, in 
an act of apparent kindness at the time, gave my daughter 
her book so my daughter didn't have to buy one for $80. 
However, each textbook comes with an on-line access code 
which can be used once and only once, so my daughter still 
had to buy her own textbook with a new access code, making 
the existing book totally useless.  How sick is that?  Yes, 
she could have bought just an access code, but that would 
have cost $70, and the ability to do that wasn't made clear 
by anybody.  Still, that means that the $80 textbook was 
really just a $10 throwaway, since the access code is what 
the publisher (and apparently the university) feels is of 
value. (Yes, I have complained to the president of the 
university, who did actually filter it down to the head of 
the department which my daughter's course was in as well as 
the bookstore president, from both of whom I received very 
unfulfilling answers -- somebody's getting kickbacks for 
this nonsense, I'm certain.)


So my daughter reads the materials on-line, takes the 
quizzes on-line and the grades are reported back to the 
professor, who has done very little about actually teaching 
the damned course.  What's his paycheck for, then, other 
than babysitting the students twice a week and making the 
software company fabulously wealthy?


I love technology, but this whole arm of on-line college 
courses in what are residential universities with supposed 
face-to-face contact with a living professor who imparts 
knowledge, wisdom, and the skills to know how to use the 
knowledge, is taking higher education in a bad direction in 
my opinion.  There's no on-line substitute for face-to-face 
contact and peer-to-peer-discussions.  I would much rather 
have my exams an

Re: [Finale] Noteflight

[dhbailey]

Barbara Touburg wrote:

I found this in a Dutch music magazine:

http://www.noteflight.com/

What do we think of this?

Barbara
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Any program which doesn't reside on my computer and the data 
files of which I store in my own location separate from the 
vissicitudes of web businesses failing is not anything I'm 
interested in.


For the same reason I won't use the internet for storing my 
backups -- nothing's truly and verifiably secure on the 
internet and nothing's to prevent some such company from 
going out of business just at the time when I need to 
restore those files to my hard drive.


No thanks, not for me.

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Re: [Finale] Crediting the copyist

[dhbailey]

Rich Caldwell wrote:

The composer of a piece I'm currently working on said I
should put my name on the last page of the score to
credit myself as the engraver. My first reaction was that
engravers don't normally do this, but I might be assuming
incorrectly. After all, if I'm wrong, I could lose out on
future work, and I don't want that.

I know it would depend on the size of the project and its
purpose, but say it's a complex large orchestral score of
a new piece, not being published at this point, just
performed — do you or would you credit/advertise yourself
in your work?

And if so, how do you do it?



If the client is suggesting that you do it, by all means 
(providing you're proud of the engraving job you've done) 
you should do it.


Just small print and only on the score, not the parts, 
something to the effect of:


Engraved by Rich Caldwell, caldwell[at]shypuppy.net

You would of course use the @ symbol, I just didn't want to 
put it in the body of the message.  Or in place of the 
e-mail address, you could put your web-site.


I have seen it done on commercial music I've purchased, 
although not often.  If there is a cover and on the inside 
of the cover is information concerning the score you might 
put it at the bottom of that page, or in small print and out 
of the way under the final measure of the entire work.


Free advertising -- unless you've done a rotten job on the 
engraving, it can't hurt.  At the least it will be totally 
neutral -- nobody will pay it any attention.  And at the 
best you might get some more engraving work out of the deal.


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Re: [Finale] untitled

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:
Is there a standard (Italian?) term used as a heading for a piece that 
has no title, in the context of a work where all the other movements 
have a title?


Allemande
Courante
[???]
Sarabande
etc.

Thanks,

Dennis



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If there's no other name, simply use the tempo indication:

Allemande
Courante
Adagio
Sarabande
etc.

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Re: [Finale] Blog Format

[dhbailey]

Nigel Hanley wrote:
I have enjoyed this reading this mailing list on and off for near on 
fourteen years, correct me if it hasn't been around that long. I am a 
Finale user since 2.0, currently Fin 2007. Has there ever been 
discussion about taking this list to a blog format?




There's been no such discussion as far as I recall, but I 
don't see any reason to do so.  It works just fine as it is.



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Re: [Finale] repeats and endings

[dhbailey]

Mike McGowan wrote:

Many of the old marches (certainly the ragtime marches) used an unusual
repeat system: the first strain has a first ending, second ending which
moves to the 2nd strain, and a fine' ending. After the third strain, one
will D.S. back to the first strain and take the fine' ending. Although this
seems simple, three endings after the first strain blew my little community
college group away for the first few rehearsals.

Consequently, modern editions of these old marches will "write out" the last
return to A instead of a D.S.  (I think somebody mentioned doing this in an
earlier posting.)



The other ending setup that blows away members of my 
otherwise quite competent community band is when there is a 
1st ending without a repeat, and a 2nd ending which is most 
often the Fine ending.  People have gotten so used to the 
fact that most 1st endings have repeats at the end of them 
that they've come to equate the 1st ending bracket with the 
repeat and don't even bother to look for the repeat sign at 
the end of the ending.  Even after I've explained it a 
couple of times it takes a couple of broken run-throughs 
before everybody gets the idea.


And that's compounded when the 1st ending is actually a 1st 
and 2nd ending combined and the 3rd ending is the Fine 
ending because the final strain is supposed to be played 
twice with a D.S. both times.


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Re: [Finale] repeats again ("rondeau")

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:
What's the clearest way to write an |:A:|BACA piece if I don't write out 
in full the three A sections (to avoid page turns). The original simply 
has "Da Capo" at the end of B and C, and a fermata on the last note of A.




People with experience in the music of the period you're 
working from will understand, others might be confused, but 
I agree that you don't need to write out the A section each 
time it recurs.


I'd use the letters A, B, C as the rehearsal markings at the 
start of each section.


Then I'd write the A section with the repeat, then the B 
section followed by D.C. senza replice, then the C section 
with D.C. al Fine (the Fine being marked at the end of the A 
section.)


I'd also include a text box above the first staff with 
something like:


The form of this movement is: A A B A C A

in order to make the form perfectly clear.


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Re: [Finale] repeats and endings

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 22 Mar 2010 at 17:11, dhbailey wrote:

Perhaps if you were to explain more fully the road map for 
the work in question, we could offer better insight to help 
you make the music the clearest.


Maybe it's my early music background, but for one particular 
situation, I see no issue with it, and that's an ABA where the 2nd 
ending starts the B section, and 1st ending is the FINE for the 
repeat of the A section. I just don't see how that's confusing at 
all. Then again, it's a very familiar roadmap for music before 1800.




I've seen that ending setup also, but I've never seen the 
number 3 in the 1st ending in that situation.


I've only seen it with 1st ending which also included the 
Fine indicator, 2nd ending which lead into the B section, 
and then D.C. al Fine at the end of the B section.  Never a 
3 in the 1st ending, at least in the editions I've seen.


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Re: [Finale] repeats and endings

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:
I have a piece with three endings, where 1 & 3 are identical. Is it 
kosher to put them both under the same bracket, say, with


1. & 3.

and then

2.

Thanks,




I've seen it done, but I do agree with Darcy that the answer 
should be no.


The main reason is that the road map issues can get really 
confusing -- for instance is your 1st ending a repeat 
ending?  Would you want the 3rd ending to repeat back to the 
beginning of that section, or would the 3rd ending jump to 
another part of the song?


Perhaps if you were to explain more fully the road map for 
the work in question, we could offer better insight to help 
you make the music the clearest.





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Re: [Finale] composers and new effects

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Wed, March 17, 2010 7:16 am, dhbailey wrote:

On the other hand, in my opinion, the reality of the
situation is that string players can't swing because
nobody's taught them how.  Nobody's made them play swing
music.  It's not that they can't, they just need to learn.


This makes no sense to me. How could string players have missed this? Doesn't
everybody playing any instrument play at least a little pop or jazz -- even to
earn supplementary income -- if they were born after, say, 1930? No? Yes? I'm
not really in touch with the lives of string players, but still...




No -- most school and youth orchestras don't do swing stuff, 
sticking to the classics instead.


And in most private string lessons, they're often studying 
with string teachers who have never had to swing and have 
never been interested in it so the teachers don't expose 
their students to it.


The lucky students will study with teachers who will say, 
now that you've got a good handle on the classical 
repertoire listen to how Stephane Grappelli  and Joe Venuti 
and Ray Nance have handled the violin in the jazz world. 
Now listen to what Jean-Luc Ponty showed the world back in 
the 1970s.  And listen to the Kronos Quartet and hear how 
diversified their styles are.  Now let's learn how to swing.


But that sort of teacher is all too rare in the string world.

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Re: [Finale] composers and new effects

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Wed, March 17, 2010 12:29 am, Michael Greensill wrote:

Now, after about 100 years, if we could just get string sections to
learn how to swing..


[Coffee-Sputter] Maybe Dudamel will.

I had one conductor explain to me that string players are so driven to be in
tune and to play together that asking them to engage in the imprecision of
swing violated this basic drive.

Hey, it's just what I was told.



P.S. -- it's a good thing nobody ever told Nelson Riddle 
that string players can't swing!



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Re: [Finale] composers and new effects

[dhbailey]

Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:

On Wed, March 17, 2010 12:29 am, Michael Greensill wrote:

Now, after about 100 years, if we could just get string sections to
learn how to swing..


[Coffee-Sputter] Maybe Dudamel will.

I had one conductor explain to me that string players are so driven to be in
tune and to play together that asking them to engage in the imprecision of
swing violated this basic drive.

Hey, it's just what I was told.



And unfortunately, that's what way too many people are told.

On the other hand, in my opinion, the reality of the 
situation is that string players can't swing because 
nobody's taught them how.  Nobody's made them play swing 
music.  It's not that they can't, they just need to learn.


And unfortunately, all too often, the conductor of an 
orchestra which is trying to swing on some pop tune for a 
Pops concert never learned either, so it's a case of the 
blind leading the blind. Or rather, the square leading the 
square.


When I conducted a community orchestra, we were going to do 
a Sinatra medley, and as expected, the orchestra couldn't 
swing.  I explained things and they began to get it but 
still weren't fully loosening up.  Finally I simply brought 
in some recordings of the original tunes and told them "Now 
that you have the beginnings of an understanding, listen to 
this and then we'll try to copy it."  They got it right away 
after that, and the following year it was much easier to do 
similar music.


Just as with any aspect of music, if a person is never 
taught properly, they'll never play properly.



--
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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

John Howell wrote:

At 10:58 AM -0400 3/15/10, dhbailey wrote:

timothy.price wrote:


As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my 
trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound

using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that !



But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and which you 
prefer would depend on the sound you want.


Gee, do you get a different sound on C trumpet than you do on Bb 
trumpet?  How about Flügelhorn?


(Sorry; tongue very definitely in cheek--and it's hard to triple-tongue 
that way!  But this is almost starting to sound like a P.D.Q. Bach 
routine!)


John





I know you're joking around, but when I remove my mouthpiece 
and blow through my trumpet I get one sound.  When I leave 
the mouthpiece in place as normal and blow through the 
mouthpiece (not vibrating my lips) I get a different sound, 
and when I invert the mouthpiece and blow, as Robert 
Patterson has suggested, I get a third sound.  The inverted 
mouthpiece gives the tone a harder, brighter timbre.


As a composer, I might want to take advantage of those 
differences in timbre.  Just another instance where a 
composer should actually have physical experience (either 
through doing or through listening to someone else do it) 
with what he/she is asking in the score and not blindly 
working off of an untested concept.


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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

timothy.price wrote:


On Mar 14, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:


 reversing the mouthpiece *definitely*
does.



As radical an idea as actual experimentation may be, I tried it on my 
trumpet, and by gosh, you get a much louder sound

using the reversed mouthpiece. Imagine that !



But you also get a different timbre, so it's a trade off and 
which you prefer would depend on the sound you want.


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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

Robert Patterson wrote:

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 7:47 PM, dhbailey
 wrote:

Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people doing it, but
I've heard it done quite effectively without anybody reversing mouthpieces.




So help me to understand. You are sitting in the audience of a large
hall listening to an ensemble with a large number of players. How do
you know whether they were reversing their mouthpieces? I ask in all
seriousness, because many players do it automatically. The fact is, as

[snip]

I was watching them -- and some of them were my private 
students (it was an All-State piece) and we had discussed 
what the instructions said, which was "remove mouthpiece and 
blow air through the instrument."  So I knew in advance what 
was coming, and then watching the concert, there were no 
reversed mouthpieces, which would have required a hand up 
near the mouth in addition to the hand holding the 
instrument -- quite an easy thing to see, even if it were 
done in a large symphony hall by professionals.  The posture 
when holding an instrument in one hand and a mouthpiece in 
the other hand so that the two line up is quite different 
than the posture when holding the instrument in the 
traditional way.  Try it and you'll see that you quite 
recognizably have changed your posture.



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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

Robert Patterson wrote:

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Andrew Stiller  wrote:

"Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous
recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not impossible,
then  what are you saying? That  it's beneath your dignity, or that you are
personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was writing for a
professional."



That is a scene I would have enjoyed watching. I hasten to add it
would almost certainly have ended very badly for the performance of
your piece, but it would definitely have made for some grand theater.

The effect does *not* produce enough sound to project off the stage
unless you do something besides merely "blow air through the
instrument". Inverting the mouthpiece is imo the most effective way to
make it project, and it has the added bonus of being easy to control
in a wide dynamic range. Obviously ymmv.


Perhaps the effect differs with different numbers of people 
doing it, but I've heard it done quite effectively without 
anybody reversing mouthpieces.



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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

Andrew Stiller wrote:


On Mar 12, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:



I clearly remember what our principal trumpet said one time to a
composer who had asked fro the effect (n the middle of rehearsal in
front of the entire orch. and conductor). "You know, I have spent a
lot of money to have a trumpet that doesn't make any noise when I just
blow air through it."


Boy would I have snapped at that! viz:

"Are you saying the effect is impossible? If so, I can cite numerous 
recordings from major composers proving you wrong. If it's not 
impossible, then  what are you saying? That  it's beneath your dignity, 
or that you are personally incapable of performing it? I *thought* I was 
writing for a professional."




Amen to that, Andrew.  And then all you'd have to do is to 
borrow his "silent" trumpet and show him how to get the effect.


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Re: [Finale] OT: blowing air through brass instruments

[dhbailey]

Guy Hayden wrote:

Not being a brass player, I find this suggestion difficult to understand.
Can you describe it a bit more clearly?  Do you blow across the "wrong" end
of the mouthpiece like blowing across a beer bottle?  What I cannot figure
is the idea of "inverting" the mouthpiece.  Aren't they the same all the way
around?  Do you mean "reverse" the mouthpiece?



What I don't understand is a trumpet which is totally silent 
when someone takes the mouthpiece off and simply blows into 
the mouthpiece receiver -- I've got a $4000 C trumpet and a 
$3000 Bb trumpet and a $1500 flugelhorn and they ALL make a 
windy sound when I blow into them with enough energy.


There's no need to use a mouthpiece at all.  If you do as 
has been suggested and reverse the mouthpiece so you're 
blowing into the backbore and the cup is placed over the 
receiver you don't have to work as hard to get a windy 
sound, but the pitch of that windy sound is different than 
what is produced by simply blowing into the receiver.



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Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?

[dhbailey]

Eric Fiedler wrote:
The general rule, set forth for example in the chapter on the NBA in 
Bärenreiter's "Editionsrichtlinien" (latest edition: Bärenreiter 2000),  
is that _all_ additions by the editor should be clearly designated as 
such. This means _cursive_ for added text, dotted slurs [in my humble 
opinion too fussy!) and so on. They go on to write that "all text taken 
over from the source, including dynamic signs like f and p etc.[and your 
poco forte] should be in normal, non-cursive print." (p.63f.) Of course, 
if you want to put such markings in cursive, as Finale and Sibelius seem 
to want to do, that you can put your additions in [brackets], which is 
not particularly beautiful but has the advantage of being intuitively 
clear to the user.

Cheers!
Eric



Do you really mean "cursive" as in "handwritten in flowing 
script?"  Wow!  I've never seen Finale nor Sibelius try to 
use a handwriting font -- could you please more be specific 
about what you mean by "cursive?"


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Re: [Finale] Text expressions : 'poco' italic or not?

[dhbailey]

Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

Good day:

Hi all:

I am working on some 18th century manuscripts, many times I will see
"poco F" or "poco piano" or "poco forte." The default text setting in
some music engraving applications is for italic (e.g. Sibelius); but
aren't italics traditionally seen as editorial additions, wouldn't
having "poco" in italics be wrong if the wording is actually present
in the manuscript source(s)?

Thank you kindly,

Kim
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If you carefully examine the dynamic markings, they're in 
italic already, so using italic for any modifying words 
looks more uniform in my opinion.  It also is what I'm used 
to seeing in older engraved music.


Italics in music doesn't indicate editorial content -- most 
of the time the use of [ and ] around the material is what 
I'm used to seeing to indicate editorial addition.


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Re: [Finale] Re: phantom word extension

[dhbailey]

Barbara Touburg wrote:

dhbailey wrote:


I've long ago given up trying to decipher any logic in the MakeMusic 
placement of menu items.


Should we send a request for editable menu structures, like M$ Word has? 
Or can someone write a plugin for it?


I doubt a plug-in could change the menu structure, which is 
most likely "hard-wired" into the programming.


But requesting editable menu structures, where the user 
could place items where they make the most sense, is a great 
idea.  As a matter of fact, I made such a request several 
versions ago, but apparently not enough other users have 
requested such a feature so we don't have that ability yet. 
 The more people who request such a feature, the sooner it 
might get added, provided that the programming of the 
feature isn't too complex.


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Re: [Finale] crash when un/plugging USB headset

[dhbailey]

SN jef chippewa wrote:


is there something in the audio/MIDI setup that could be letting this 
happen?  i get a crash whenever plugging or unplugging a logitech USB 
headset (headphones + mic).


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The audio input for the microphone may be inactive until you 
plug it in, when the OS activates it.  If Finale is already 
running, this change in the state of the audio input may 
confuse the program and cause the crash.


Try plugging the headset into the computer before starting 
Finale and all should be fine.  Or use a headset which is 
just the headphones without the mic.


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Re: [Finale] Re: phantom word extension

[dhbailey]

Don Hart wrote:

Solved with the "Update smart word extensions and hyphens" feature
in the *utilities menu*!  A feature I was unaware of, (new since 2006,
I guess) that seems totally worthy of membership somewhere in the
Lyrics menu.  Or so one would think. - DH



I've long ago given up trying to decipher any logic in the 
MakeMusic placement of menu items.


It seems as if they've tried to be obtuse.  I quite agree 
that anything which affects "Lyrics" should be in the 
"Lyrics" menu, but no, if it has a utilititarian nature, it 
might go in the "Utilities" menu, or if you might happen to 
use it while editing the score (duh, isn't that about half 
of the time we spend using Finale?) it might be in the 
"Edit" menu.  And there appears to be no rhyme nor reason 
for any of the menu placement.


Then there's "Show Active Layer" which is in the "Document" 
menu, when it more accurately affects what we see and could 
more logically be in the "View" menu, or it helps us to edit 
the file in a particular manner and so might be under the 
"Edit" menu.  Using the "it affects this document so we'll 
put it in the Document menu" logic, shouldn't most menu 
items be under the "Document" menu?


"Transpose" is under the "Utilities" menu, yet it's 
something we do while editing the music, so why isn't it 
under the "Edit" menu?


"Add Measures" is under the "Edit" menu, not under the 
"Measure" menu which shows up when using the Measure Tool. 
Since it's just as much a utility as transposing is, why 
isn't it under the "Utility" menu?


The list goes on and on -- If a person uses a particular 
version of Finale a lot, every day,  the location of the 
menu items doesn't really matter because one quickly becomes 
familiar with them all, but for people who use it less 
frequently, the menu organization simply becomes one more 
reason why so many people find Finale so hard to learn.


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Re: [Finale] endings and time sigs

[dhbailey]

dc wrote:
If one has a change in time signature between 1st and 2nd endings, 
should the first hook of the 2nd be placed before or after the new time 
sig?




If the new time signature is part of the 2nd ending, then 
the first hook of the ending bracket should be before the 
new time signature, in my opinion.


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Re: [Finale] Playback Bugs

[dhbailey]

Michael Lawlor wrote:

[Finale 2009] A couple of weeks ago I asked about a
problem with Finale failing while human playback is on.
I got no response to that, but I am now encountering
several problems with playback, including one I used to
have with an older version of Finale.  Following is a
list of the various problems.

1)  With human playback switched on, Finale will only
work playing back from the beginning of the file.  Set
the playback to left-most measure or a specified bar
number causes Finale to collapse in a heap.

2)  The above problem is now also happening when human
playback is switched off.

3)  A problem I encountered with an earlier version of
Finale (and never really fixed): playback is
intermittent, some bars play, some do not; some parts in
some bars play, others do not; some parts in some bars
play some of the time (i.e. notes are truncated).  This
consistently happens in the same place.  I copied the
offending section to a new file - the playback error
still occurs.  When this happened in v2002 once the
playback stopped, it did not come back in again.  In
v2009 the playback comes and goes.

My only guess is that I may not have enough RAM (2GB).
Can anyone confirm this or suggest other causes?



I think that you might need to provide some more clues, such 
as which playback method are you using (i.e. soundcard 
synth, external midi module, SmartMusic soundfont, GPO or 
other VSt playback), what sort of score you're working on 
and how complex the music is, how many different staves are 
set to the same midi channel or soft-synth patch.  Do you 
get the same errors no matter which playback method you use? 
 Are you on a Windows PC or a Mac?


Along with the potential for a problem due to ram (although 
on a PC with 2GB you should be alright, depending on what 
other apps are running in the background), the specs of the 
processor you're using and the OS you're using can have an 
effect as well.




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Re: [Finale] [OT] cue in C tpt before Bb picc tpt entry

[dhbailey]

SN jef chippewa wrote:


sorry, should have mentioned chromatic trans, no key sigs.  so just to 
make sure, even though the part is for C tpt, since the player has just 
taken the Bb picc tpt to play, the cue should be in Bb picc, yes?



tpt in C has a cue just before its entry (was previously playing tpt in
C), should the cue in the PT be in C or Bb piccolo tpt?


I would put it in the same key as the part being read.  The tonality 
heard by the player should not change, unless you really like confusion.


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I wouldn't worry about that -- I'd simply make certain that 
whatever instrument/voice is playing the cued notes is 
marked very clearly.  A player who plays on both C and Bb 
instruments and does so well enough to be playing your music 
will be able to cope with a cue for a different instrument, 
especially if it's just a guide and isn't something the 
trumpeter will ever have to play.  We trumpet players can 
think in many different keys, often within a few beats of 
each other, so it's not big deal either way.  But be sure 
you specify the instrument playing the cue.


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Re: [Finale] A bit OT: Henle engraver plate

[dhbailey]

SN jef chippewa wrote:


i guess you can't specify which plate you would want if you order one?

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There wasn't an option when I ordered mine.

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