Re: [Fis] Physics of computing
Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles more focused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] Sincerely, Walter ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Telf: 34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com Para: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Referencias: 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es +++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) daemons and (Turing) oracles closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org mailto:pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pe mailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles more focused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] Sincerely, Walter ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov landline: +49.30.38.10.11.25 fax/ums: +49.30.48.49.88.26.4 mobile: +44.12.23.96.85.69 email: pla...@simeio.org mailto:pla...@simeio.org URL: www.simeio.org http://www.simeio.org -- ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Physics of computing
Greetings All, While I like to think that I am not limited to reductionistic thinking, I find it difficult to understand any perspective on information that is not limited to physical manifestation. I would appreciate further justification for a non-physicalist perspective on information. How can something exist in the absence of physical manifestation? I am not interested in a metaphysical perspective here, which might have heuristic value even if it is not 'real'. The issue of 'content' and 'meaning' strikes me as entirely physical, so mentioning those issues doesn't help me understand what non-physical information might be. I would say that if information is physically manifested by contrasts (gradients, negentropy, …), then content or meaning refers to the internal dynamics of complex systems induced by interaction between the system and the physically manifested information. If there is no affect on internal dynamics, then the system did not 'perceive' the information. If the information merely causes a transient fluctuation of the internal dynamics, then the perceived information was not meaningful to the system. At least this is a sketch of my view that I hope illustrates why the notions of 'content' and 'meaning' does not depart the physical realm for me. Regards, Guy From: Pedro Clemente Marijuan Fernandez pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:19:31 -0700 To: Foundations of Information Science Information Science fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pemailto:walter.riof...@terra.com.pe escribió: Thanks John and Kevin to update issues in information, computation, energy and reality. I would like point out to other articles morefocused in how coherence and entanglement are used by living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L., Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007) Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786. Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room temperature. Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373. Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L., Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503. Cia, J. et al, (2009) Dynamic entanglement in oscillating molecules. arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph] Sincerely, Walter ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.esmailto:fis@listas.unizar.eshttps://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Avda. Gómez Laguna, 25, Pl. 11ª 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Telf: 34 976 71 3526 ( 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554 pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.esmailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] FW: [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S.
Dear FISers, Indeed information can be considered downwards (physical meaningless) and upwards (biological meaningful). The difference being about interpretation or not. It also introduces an evolutionary approach to information processing and meaning generation. There is a chapter on that subject in a recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Information-Computation-Philosophical-Understanding-Foundations/dp/toc/9814295477). “Computation on Information, Meaning and Representations.An Evolutionary Approach” Content of the chapter: 1. Information and Meaning. Meaning Generation 1.1. Information.Meaning of information and quantity of information 1.2. Meaningful information and constraint satisfaction. A systemic approach 2. Information, Meaning and Representations. An Evolutionary Approach 2.1. Stay alive constraint and meaning generation for organisms 2.2. The Meaning Generator System (MGS). A systemic and evolutionary approach 2.3. Meaning transmission 2.4. Individual and species constraints. Group life constraints. Networks of meanings 2.5. From meaningful information to meaningful representations 3. Meaningful Information and Representations in Humans 4. Meaningful Information and Representations in Artificial Systems 4.1. Meaningful information and representations from traditional AI to Nouvelle AI. Embodied-situated AI 4.2. Meaningful representations versus the guidance theory of representation 4.3. Meaningful information and representations versus the enactive approach 5. Conclusion and Continuation 5.1. Conclusion 5.2. Continuation A version close to the final text can be reached at http://crmenant.free.fr/2009BookChapter/C.Menant.211009.pdf As Plamen says, we may be at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. But I’m afraid that an understanding of the meaning of information needs clear enough an understanding of the constraint at the source of the meaning generation process. And even for basic organic meanings coming from a “stay alive” constraint, we have to face the still mysterious nature of life. And for human meanings, the even more mysterious nature of human mind. This is not to discourage our efforts in investigating these questions. Just to put a stick in the ground showing where we stand. Best, Christophe Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:47:28 +0100 From: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] [Fwd: Re: Physics of computing]--Plamen S. Mensaje original Asunto: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing Fecha: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:24:38 +0100 De: Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov plamen.l.simeo...@gmail.com Para: Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es Referencias: 20120316041607.66ffc68000...@1w8.tpn.terra.com 4f6321c3.5000...@aragon.es +++ Dear All, I could not agree more with Pedro's opinion. The referred article is interesting indeed. but, information is only physical in the narrow sense taken by conventional physicalistic-mechanistic-computational approaches. Such a statement defends the reductionist view at nature: sorry. But information is more than bits and Shanno's law and biology has far more to offer. I think we are at the beginning of a new scientific revolution. So, we may need to take our (Maxwell) daemons and (Turing) oracles closer under the lens. In fact, David Ball, the author of the Nature paper approached me after my talk in Brussels in 2010 on the Integral Biomathics approach and told me he thinks it were a step in the right direction: biology driven mathematics and computation. By the way, our book of ideas on IB will be released next month by Springer: http://www.springer.com/engineering/computational+intelligence+and+complexity/book/978-3-642-28110-5 If you wish to obtain it at a lower price (65 EUR incl. worldwide delivery) please send me your names, mailing addresses and phone numbers via email to: pla...@simeio.org. There must be at least 9 orders to keep that discount price.. Best, Plamen On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es wrote: Dear discussants, I tend to disagree with the motto information is physical if taken too strictly. Obviously if we look downwards it is OK, but in the upward direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has content and meaning. Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the upward, but useless in the downward. By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994 or 1995 paper in BioSystems... best ---Pedro walter.riof...@terra.com.pe
[Fis] Physics of Computing
Dear FISers: Pedro and Plamen raise good and welcomed points regarding the nature of physics, information, and biology. Although I believe in a strong relationship between information and physics in biology, there are striking examples where direct correspondences between information, physics, and biology seem to depart. Scientists are only beginning to tease out these discrepancies which will undoubtedly give us a better understand of information. For example, in the study of cognition by A. Khrennikov and colleagues and J. Busemyer and colleagues, decisional processes may conform to quantum statistics and computation without necessarily being mediated by quantum mechanical phenomena at a biological level of description. I found this to be true in ciliates as well, where social strategy search speeds and decision rates may produce quantum computational phases that obey quantum statistics. In such cases, a changing classical diffusion term of response regulator reaction-diffusion parsimoniously accounts for the transition from classical to quantum information processing. Thus, there is no direct correspondence between quantum physicochemistry and quantum computation. Because the particular reaction-diffusion biochemistry is not unique to ciliates (i.e., the same phenomena is observed in plants, animals, and possibly bacteria), this incongruity may be widespread across life. Best regards, Kevin Clark___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing
Hi FISers Can anyone show me a calculus for Information relating to biological systems? And if so show me the relationship with conceptual mathematics? Regards Gavin Dear FISers: Pedro and Plamen raise good and welcomed points regarding the nature of physics, information, and biology. Although I believe in a strong relationship between information and physics in biology, there are striking examples where direct correspondences between information, physics, and biology seem to depart. Scientists are only beginning to tease out these discrepancies which will undoubtedly give us a better understand of information. For example, in the study of cognition by A. Khrennikov and colleagues and J. Busemyer and colleagues, decisional processes may conform to quantum statistics and computation without necessarily being mediated by quantum mechanical phenomena at a biological level of description. I found this to be true in ciliates as well, where social strategy search speeds and decision rates may produce quantum computational phases that obey quantum statistics. In such cases, a changing classical diffusion term of response regulator reaction-diffusion parsimoniously accounts for the transition from classical to quantum information processing. Thus, there is no direct correspondence between quantum physicochemistry and quantum computation. Because the particular reaction-diffusion biochemistry is not unique to ciliates (i.e., the same phenomena is observed in plants, animals, and possibly bacteria), this incongruity may be widespread across life. Best regards, Kevin Clark ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing
Dear Kevin and FIS, Searching for Andrei's articles, I found http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0906/0906.4952.pdf and in the abstract there is a claim: Therefore, mental states, during perception cognition of ambiguous figures, follow quantum mechanics. I am not an expert by any means but I find this claim very plausible from my personal experience as a cognitive agent in case of ambiguous figures. When I cannot decide what an ambiguous figure actually is I keep number of plausible hypotheses actual in mind waiting for contextual clues to help me make disambiguation. The state of mind about an ambiguous figure can be written as a superposition of possible states with corresponding weights and that superposition can be likened with a quantum mechanical superposition of states. It seems to me that there could be very natural mechanisms for this phenomenon, and really nothing non-physical. Maybe Andrei can help elucidate the exact meaning of similar statistical forms found in several different fields, as the title of his book says: Ubiquitous quantum structure: from psychology to finance. Best, Gordana PS Back to Pedro's original reference to physical levels of information, Deacon made a useful distinction between three different levels of information. Deacon's three types of information parallel his three levels of emergent dynamics which in Salthe's notation looks like: [1. thermo- [2. morpho- [3. teleo-dynamics]]] with corresponding mechanisms [1. mass-energetic [2. self-organization [3. self-preservation (semiotic)]]] and corresponding Aristotle's causes [1. efficient cause [ 2. formal cause [ 3. final cause]]] In the above, thermodynamics and semiotic layers of organization are linked via intermediary layer of morphodynamics (spontaneous form-generating processes), and thus do not communicate directly (so it looks like mind communicating with matter via form). Of course there is physics at the bottom. http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/ https://sites.google.com/site/naturalcomputingaisbiacap2012 From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Kevin Clark Sent: den 16 mars 2012 21:56 To: fis@listas.unizar.es Subject: [Fis] Physics of Computing Dear FISers: Pedro and Plamen raise good and welcomed points regarding the nature of physics, information, and biology. Although I believe in a strong relationship between information and physics in biology, there are striking examples where direct correspondences between information, physics, and biology seem to depart. Scientists are only beginning to tease out these discrepancies which will undoubtedly give us a better understand of information. For example, in the study of cognition by A. Khrennikov and colleagues and J. Busemyer and colleagues, decisional processes may conform to quantum statistics and computation without necessarily being mediated by quantum mechanical phenomena at a biological level of description. I found this to be true in ciliates as well, where social strategy search speeds and decision rates may produce quantum computational phases that obey quantum statistics. In such cases, a changing classical diffusion term of response regulator reaction-diffusion parsimoniously accounts for the transition from classical to quantum information processing. Thus, there is no direct correspondence between quantum physicochemistry and quantum computation. Because the particular reaction-diffusion biochemistry is not unique to ciliates (i.e., the same phenomena is observed in plants, animals, and possibly bacteria), this incongruity may be widespread across life. Best regards, Kevin Clark ___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
[Fis] Physics of Computing
Thank you Gordana for your reply. But I'm not sure whether not you misunderstood my comments about a direct correspondence between information and physics in biology. So, I thought I should stress my point from a slightly different approach. Khrennikov and colleagues, for instance, often refer to their observations as quantum-like. The reasons for doing so are because the quantum computational observations are inherently supported by biological phenomena and concepts in quantum statistical mechanics, but not necessarily a quantum mechanical physical manifestation. I have used the term quantum-like with with several of my own findings. Clearly ciliate decision making is a biological process and, therefore, a natural one. But quantum computation by ciliates, or any other life form, might not always be caused by a quantum physical manifestation. Indeed, quantum-level social strategy searches by ciliates are likely mediated by classical and not quantum diffusion in the reaction-diffusion of Ca2+ ions. Most people would present an a priori argument that for quantum computation to be realized by a biological system, such as ciliates, a physical manifestation of quantum mechanics, such as quantum diffusion, must also occur. This necessity just doesn't seem always to be the case. These sorts of incongruities have started some debate in the quantum biology community. Some people simply believe that conceptual and statistically supported quantum computations by biological systems should not be considered quantum mechanical unless they are mediated by physical manifestations of quantum mechanics. I will not respond for a few days to allow further debate from other FISers. Best regards, Kevin Clark___ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing
Dear Gordana,
There are for me many question marks in ascriptions of quantum properties to
complex cognitive phenomena. The inversion of perspective I propose. using
Deacon's term, is to see processes of superposition as common both to quantum
phenomena as simplified projections of mental processes and to the mental
processes themselves. This does not require, as many people seem rather
desperately to want, that any given figure -ground event involve quanta at that
higher level. In this case, your useful term likened with a quantum mechanical
superposition can be replaced, usefully I suggest, by a weighting of the
degrees of actuality and potentiality of the components of a evolving complex
process. This is both where information is and what it is.
In this connection, I call all FIS'ers attention to the very pertinent concept
of another Andrei, Andrei Igamberdiev, described in his book, of Internal
Quantum States. The difference is, if I understand both sets of ideas
correctly, is that Igamberdiev is talking about the foundations of theoretical
biology. He does not require that Nature at higher levels actually instantiate
quantum structures in any sense other than that, as Gordana says, there is
nothing non-physical and quanta are involved a priori.
Cheers,
Joseph
Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: gordana.dodig-crnko...@mdh.se
Datum: 16.03.2012 23:11
An: Kevin Clarkkbclark...@yahoo.com,
fis@listas.unizar.esfis@listas.unizar.es
Kopie: andrei.khrenni...@msi.vxu.seandrei.khrenni...@msi.vxu.se
Betreff: Re: [Fis] Physics of Computing
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Dear Kevin and FIS,
Searching for Andrei’s articles, I found
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0906/0906.4952.pdf
and in the abstract there is a claim:
“Therefore,
mental states, during perception cognition of ambiguous figures, follow quantum
mechanics.”
I am
not an expert by any means but I find this claim very plausible from my
personal experience as a cognitive agent in case of ambiguous figures.
When I
cannot decide what an ambiguous figure actually is I keep number of plausible
hypotheses actual in mind waiting for contextual clues to help me make
disambiguation.
The
state of mind about an ambiguous figure can be written as a superposition of
possible
states with corresponding weights and that superposition
can be likened with a quantum mechanical superposition of states.
It
seems to me that there could be very natural mechanisms for this phenomenon, and
really nothing non-physical.
Maybe
Andrei can help elucidate the exact meaning of similar statistical forms found
in several different fields, as the title of his book says:
“Ubiquitous
quantum structure: from psychology to finance”.
Best,
Gordana
PS
Back to Pedro’s original reference to physical levels of
information, Deacon made a useful distinction between three different levels of
information.
Deacon’s three types of information parallel his three
levels of emergent dynamics which in Salthe’s notation looks like:
[1. thermo- [2. morpho- [3. teleo-dynamics]]] with corresponding
mechanisms
[1. mass-energetic [2. self-organization [3.
self-preservation (semiotic)]]] and corresponding Aristotle’s causes
[1. efficient cause [ 2. formal cause [ 3. final cause]]]
In the above, thermodynamics and semiotic layers of organization
are linked via intermediary layer of morphodynamics (spontaneous
form-generating processes), and thus do not communicate directly (so it looks
like mind communicating with matter via form).
Of course there is physics at the bottom.
http://www.mrtc.mdh.se/~gdc/
https://sites.google.com/site/naturalcomputingaisbiacap2012
From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es
[mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Kevin Clark
Sent: den 16 mars 2012 21:56
To: fis@listas.unizar.es
Subject: [Fis] Physics of Computing
Dear FISers:
Pedro and Plamen raise good and
welcomed points regarding the nature of physics, information, and biology.
Although I believe in a strong relationship between information and physics in
biology, there are
