Re: [Fis] mind-mind

[Logan Streondj]

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On 2017-11-01 07:25 PM, Sungchul Ji wrote:
> Hi Michell and FISers,
> 
> 
> "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is
> that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the
> *brain*; because it is the background to that what we see by using
> the eyes."
> 

Hi Sung

I see this is a common theme here.

I generally agree,
but would prefer to use noise and connotation here.

the eye receives noise, it is refined along the neuro-nets,
until at some higher level it receives a connotation.

While some input may be a round red gradient, the neuronet will find
edges and the higher nets connotation maybe red ball.

Would you agree that an independent clause is the atom of information?

So getting back to the topic,  of dialogue or mind-mind.
An expressed independent clause (whether as an image, language, or
performance),  is the fundamental atoms with which we communicate.

The expression is itself noise, but with a sufficiently similar
receiver, it can be parsed back into an independent clause.

Certain concepts, like definitions, may require multiple
independent-clauses to support them,  making a molecule of information.


> 
> If you have any question or comments, let me know.
> 
> 
> Sung
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> f  g (*eyes/brain*)
> 
> Reality >  Sign ---> Interpretant
> 
> |  (*Data*) ^
> 
> | |
> 
> 
> |__|
> 
> h (information)
> 
> 
> Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or
> *brain; h = correspondence or *information flow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
- --
>
> 
*From:* Fis  on behalf of Michel Petitjean
>  *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017
> 5:29 PM *To:* fis *Subject:* Re: [Fis] mind-mind
> 
> Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,
> 
> I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly
> from Mind to Mind. Being a materialist, I consider that only matter
> exists. Does it mean that information is matter or energy? No. Let
> me discuss about this contradiction. Parenthesis: energy is linked
> to mass through math modeling of physical laws, and mass is a
> property of matter (could also be linked to a modeling concept, but
> it is unimportant here). People (not only scientists) build math
> and non math models to attempt to explain what they observe. Would
> you consider that math is matter? Probably no. Thus math and non
> math models that we build in our heads are not matter. However they
> are produced through some biochemical process, and as such they
> originate from matter. Eventually, it could be considered that math
> and other concepts are a somewhat special part of matter, but I
> think that claim would not be accepted in our current language(s). 
> I consider that "soul", "god", and some other concepts are built in
> our heads. In my opinion, these concepts at best incoherent, if not
> worse. Remark: I have nothing against religions, as far as
> believers do not impose to me the consequences of their beliefs. 
> Religious beliefs must be private affairs. Here, please accept my
> apologies if some of you are shocked by the previous sentences.
> 
> Information is like math: it is a modeling concept applied to some 
> situations. However, I do not claim that information can be reduced
> to the math concepts of information.
> 
> To conclude:
> 
> 1. I agree with Principle 1 of Pedro.
> 
> 2. I assume potential contradictions in my views. No problem: I am
> a poor philosopher. Then,I never claimed that I am "built" to be
> able to elaborate a coherent theory about life, consciousness ,
> etc. May be it is impossible. May be that cannot be decided, etc. 
> All that is opinions. It is just nice and funny to discuss
> information and so on.
> 
> 3. If I would vote for a definition of information, I would retain
> the one of Karl. Citing Karl in his post of the 3 Oct 2017: "Data
> is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we
> do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; 
> because it is the background to that what we see by using the
> eyes."
> 
> All my best,
> 
> Michel.
> 
> Michel Petitjean MTi, INSERM UMR-S 973, University Paris 7, 35 rue
> Helene Brion, 75205 Paris Cedex 13, France. Phone: +331 5727 8434;
> Fax: +331 5727 8372 E-mail: petitjean.chi...@gmail.com
> (preferred), michel.petitj...@univ-paris-diderot.fr 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetitj
eanmichel.free.fr%2Fitoweb.petitjean.html=02%7C01%7Csji%40pharmacy.
rutgers.edu%7Cbf7631e0dff442f73d7508d5216fa58b%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69a
ca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636451685771465824=N%2F5Hj%2FvBN5SFKXEltkcE2H4
N6RYM%2BWo8%2FLTWin1XSX4%3D=0
>
> 
>> Dear Alex and FIS Colleagues,
>> 
>> Thank you for the nice remark.
>> 
>> I had 

Re: [Fis] About 10 Principles

[Logan Streondj]

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Hi Krassimir and all,

Thank you for the warm welcome.

I did hear about how there was a an exciting debate going on here
about the definition of information and apparently the principles of
information.  I've glanced through the archives and see there have
been many great ideas proposed.

I thought I would add my own perspective to it.  I am from a computer
programming background,  so data would be a more natural word than
reflections.  However I also made an auxlang (Pyash) which has a
vocabulary that intersected about 30k English words, left me with
about 8k words to work with, in it there is no word for information,
or data,
however there is a word for description, belief, truth, real and
knowledge.

I'd like to give my axiomatic perspective of the principles on
information science.

0. A belief is an independent-clause (sentence).
0a)  You can call it an information packet or w/e you prefer.

1. Truth is a private belief.
1a) A person has a cluster of harmonious beliefs which form a template
for sieving input.
1b) Beliefs which align with the template are "True".
1c) Beliefs which are not applicable to the template are noise or
confusing.
1d) Beliefs which conflict with the template are either discarded, or
the template is modified to align with them. (to avoid cognitive
dissonance).

2. Knowledge consists of experienced beliefs, typically those that
have been subsumed by the template. For instance "false" belief could
subsume as beliefs held by an other community.

3. Real are the mutual beliefs of a community of people.
3a)  By Integrated Information Theory, even protons have some
consciousness. for example an atom communicates it's beliefs about
it's location and frequency when probed by a photon. So the beliefs of
"inanimate matter" must also be taken into consideration of what is
real. The beliefs of inanimate matter, as measured by mechanical and
electronic tools are typically what is described as "objective reality".

4. Dialogue is the exchange of beliefs.

On 2017-10-31 10:07 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:
> Dear FIS Colleagues,
> 
> What is the proper attitude to the ocean of the data we create and
>  perceive?

Each of us has our own template.

> The Modern Societies  Every group of Infoses, 
> people in particular, forms a society if there is an agreement for
>  communication interactions. An important element of this agreement
>  is the availability of a common data base.

Each group has their own reality (though most intersect with objective
reality).


> Scientists do not assume anything in advance

While that may be ideal, it's difficult to achieve as each scientist
has their own template of the world.

> and try to make reasoning based only on repeatable and controlled 
> experiments.

For sure, I think the scientific method is what makes science.
Repeatable controlled experiments are what lead to practical innovation.


> I hope, the FIS List is a scientific forum and all posts nave to be
> based on repeatable and controlled experiments!

For sure.

So for example the above principles, can have some experiments.

For the belief template, can use a toUpper function as a straw example,
it will convert any input that is the lower-case ASCII range, an
upper-case ASCII range, and either discard or return any other inputs,
as they don't fit it's template.

A more complicated function may be able to process a greater range of
inputs.

string.h is a community of persons that believe series of integers end
in 0's.  C-strings are real to them.

Though there is an issue with those examples,  mainly that since they
are state-less feed-forward functions they aren't conscious. Perhaps
you can come up with some better examples or counter-examples?


> P1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
> 
> M1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not
> every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended
> reflections are information.

I also prefer M1 here.

Though I'd say that "subjectively comprehended reflections" is an
example of exclusively integrated information (to use IIT terminology).

- -- 
Logan Streondj,
A dream of Gaia's future.
twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj

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Re: [Fis] mind-mind

[Francesco Rizzo]

Cari Tutti,
la distinzione tra materialisti e idealisti, corpo e anima (o spirito),
materia e energia è interfacciata o intermediata dall'informazione.
L'informazione è indispensabile per la conoscenza di tutto ciò che
costituisce la realtà dell'esistenza o l'esistenza della realtà del mondo.
Se ciò è vero la materia è un modo o una forma di essere dell'energia e
l'energia è un modo o una forma di essere della materia. Se la conoscenza
di questo mondo è costituita dall'informazione tutto è quantizzato in bit.
Ma i bit non bastano. Bisogna andare oltre la comunicazione di
Shannon inventando una teoria che consideri l'informazione come il concetto
fondamentale, non solo della fisica, ma anche dell'economia, etc.
Nella materia l'energia prende una forma particolare, come nell'energia la
materia prende una forma particolare. Un bene economico è
 contemporaneamente o alternativamente un essere merce (materiale) e un
essere segno (immateriale) o moneta. Quindi la realtà economica è
 ad un tempo liquida e illiquida, monetaria o non monetaria.Si tratta
quindi di "modellizzare" l'intreccio o complementarità o compenetrazione
 o entanglement degli elementi che costituiscono la realtà della vita o la
vita della realtà. I dati o le idee diventano fatti quando le loro forme
significano qualcosa che diventa oggetto di comunicazione. In conclusione
la nostra mente, con la collaborazione di tutti gli organi del nostro corpo,
 fornisce l'informazione ad-atta e ad-attabile per comunicare con gli
altri, perchè comunicando si vive, non vivendo si comunica. In estrema
sintesi,
senza scadere in ragionamenti cervellotici, per informazione  si deve
intendere un'azione o processo che consente di dare forma alle persone
 (non agli individui) e a tutti gli altri esseri viventi (animalii e
vegetali), alle idee e alle cose. Mentre dis-informazione è un'azione o un
processo contrario
al prendere forma, ma significa perdere o degradare la forma.
Un saluto cordiale espresso senza alcuna presunzione o arroganza. Il
miglior modo per comunicare è rispettare tutti, anche quelli che la pensano
e la dicono diversamente da noi.
Francesco Rizzo

2017-11-02 0:25 GMT+01:00 Sungchul Ji :

> Hi Michell and FISers,
>
>
> "*Data* is that what we see by using the *eyes*. *Information* is that
> what
> we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the *brain*;
> because it is the background to that what we see by using the eyes."
>
>
> This paragraph contains the following pairs or relations:
>
>
> Data ~ eyes
>
> Information ~ brain
>
>
> Since eyes cannot function without the brain but the brain can without
> eyes, I wonder if the above tetrad can be reduced to a triad:
>
>
> Data ~ eyes/brain ~ information
>
>
> which in turn may be explained in more detail using the ITR (Irreducible
> Triadic Relation) diagram thus:
>
>
>
>f
> g (*eyes/brain*)
>
>Reality --> Sign
>  --> Interpretant
>
> |(*Data*)
> ^
>
> |
>  |
>
> |___
> |
>
>h (*information*)
>
>
>
>  *Figure 1.  * The *data-information relation* explained on the basis of
> ITR (Irreudicible Triadic Relation).  The arrows read "determines" and
> "interpretant is the effect the sign has on the mind of the interpreter
> (biotic or abiotic).  f = measurement; g = mental process *; *h =
> correspondence or information flow.
>
>
>
>
> If you have any question or comments, let me know.
>
>
> Sung
>
>
>
>
>
>f  g (
> *eyes/brain*)
>
>   Reality >  Sign --->
> Interpretant
>
>|  (*Data*)
>^
>
>|
>   |
>
>|
> __|
>
>   h (information)
>
>
>  Figure 1.f = measurement or *eyes*; g = mental process or *brain; h
> = correspondence or *information flow
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Fis  on behalf of Michel Petitjean <
> petitjean.chi...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 5:29 PM
> *To:* fis
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] mind-mind
>
> Dear Krassimir, dear ALex, dear All,
>
> I agree with Krassimir that ideas cannot be transmitted directly from
> Mind to Mind.
> Being a materialist, I consider that only matter exists.
> Does it mean that information is matter or energy?
> No.
> Let me discuss about this