Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
On Wednesday 14 June 2006 15:18, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: 1. Code loading: That is just proves my point - developers have to do the tricks I wouldn't call using a framework a 'trick'. 2. Connectivity : means an ability to guarantee timely delivery of the data. That requires an ability to diagnose the problem and swich to alternative delivery methods without getting the application code involved. Well, flex doesn't do that :-) 3. See if it recovers - if it does it means it is robust. Not sure AMF is going to like having the data corrupted either. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 16:36, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: by JavaScript like loading of JavaScript itself or connectivity issues that You can do that - see JSON for instance, or the way google sends Javascript code ready to be executed first from the server. Connectivity ? You mean checking the browser is supported, and can still talk to the server ? Even Flex only solves the former by itself. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Tom, 1. Code loading: That is just proves my point - developers have to do the tricks to increase probability the code gets downloaded. Imagine you have 1MB+ of code to take care of - size of your average Flex app while still in beta. I do not think we had a problem with code loading or pre-compiling on the first apps or when code base was small. It's just reaches that point in few years. 2. Connectivity : means an ability to guarantee timely delivery of the data. That requires an ability to diagnose the problem and swich to alternative delivery methods without getting the application code involved. Ability to efficiently deal with limited number of streams available (2) , bundling of the requests, timeouts, 1.1 vs 1.0 connectivity, proxies and routers,etc. You can take/build framework and resolve 90% of the problems - that does not make it 100% robust - control of HTTPRequest is just too limited for that. Here is a quick test: 1. Build sizable AJAX application 2. Pull a plug for few secs/nix/damage some random incoming / outgoing streams, make them hang with keep-alive - simulate real Internet case scenario 3. See if it recovers - if it does it means it is robust. Thank you, Anatole - Original Message - From: Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 16:36, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: by JavaScript like loading of JavaScript itself or connectivity issues that You can do that - see JSON for instance, or the way google sends Javascript code ready to be executed first from the server. Connectivity ? You mean checking the browser is supported, and can still talk to the server ? Even Flex only solves the former by itself. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
I believe that one of the reasons you are going away from ThinkCAP is because of the architecture. Historically, we went through the same way as ThinkCAP developers (PowerBuilder - XML + AJAX - Custom AJAX/WebServices framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. At best you should be able to reuse SQL and some Java code - I would strongly suggest not to bother to keep 100% or even 30% - as the maintenance of the code in the environment that is not native to Flex is going to backfire. Just look at the Flex controls and ThinkCAP code and implement 20% of the ThinkCAP framework in Flex that would make manual converion of 80% of the code trivial. Thank you, Anatole Tartakovsky - Original Message - From: John C. Bland II To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? Hopefully 100% of the server-side is reuseable (not going against Tom...just a hope). If the Ajax site/app is done right then you will only have to change your view (front-end). In this case, build the UI with Flex and connect it to your backend...done! It SHOULDN'T be a big issue but it seriously depends on your backend. Here's a thought (keep in mind I know nothing about ThinkCAP):Use ExternalInterface in Flex to talk to ThinkCAP. This way your backend has NOTHING to do with your front-end. ThinkCAP would play as a "proxy" of sorts by allowing data retrieval, etc via _javascript_ calls. Just a thought... On 6/12/06, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 09 June 2006 18:37, Carson Hager wrote: We know quite a bit about ThinkCAP as well as Flex. Unfortunately, this is going to be a manual process. There really is no good way to go fromHopefully 90% of the server-side code can be reused though, I guess ?--Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITYThis email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now.http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM~---Flexcoders Mailing ListFAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txtSearch Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- John C. Bland II"I do what I can do when I can do it." - Chris Tucker, Money Talkshttp://www.gotoandstop.org - Home of FMUG.az __._,_.___ -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Web site design development Computer software development Software design and development Macromedia flex Software development best practice YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "flexcoders" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 02:16, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. Quick, tell google :-) Seriously, Flex is quicker to work with, but DHTML/AJAX is perfectly robust. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Tom, Google uses very small JavaScript libraries obsuficated to smallest size libraries, cached, and often claims the product is beta. They have huge networking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliability that is out of reach for 99% of the competition. They are delivering production components (Toolbars, etc) not as AJAX, but activeX and plugins. If you are building few screens with functionality that has to be delivered to billions of people, use AJAX. If you have to build APPLICATION - with hundreds of pages, reports, dashboards, etc. please read on. RIA requires a lot of client side code. Compiled Framework.swc is 2MB , the UI-only sources are over 7MB. The UI portion of framework we have written in 1999-2002 was over 3MB - including DataGrid, Report, and 70 other controls. Robustness and performance of JavaScript: It is too slow and there is no machanism in the browser to insure the competeness of JavaScript downloads. You do not get exception if JavaScript has not been loaded. There is no way to recover other then wrap code with watchdog code and try to check if the secondary code was loaded/try to reload otherwise. Of course, there is no guarantee that watchdog code is loaded either. As a result, even the slightest problems on the network level require huge efforts on the framework level. Even if cached, JavaScript has to be parsed and pre-compiled on every page refresh. Add browser incompatibilities, typing errors that have not been caught by compiler because there is no compiler/strong code checking) and add really big application code base and you will get my point. It is all curable on the system level. For demanding applications we had to develop following system components outside the browser (just to support AJAX and business needed functionality missing in the browser) 1. reliable pluggable protocol on the top of HTTP(s) to support guaranteed delivery/caching of data and code 2. cached factories for JavaScript to allow faster instantiation of client-side javascript 3. print tempates enabler to allow full control of the printing environment without browser limitations. The list goes on and on Bottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can try to build it in JavaScript, but after trying for 5 years I began to think it is unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned enhancements, but they are pusing alternatives to AJAX of their own, so Flash seems the only option with enough market penetration. Sincerely, Anatole Tartakovsky - Original Message - From: Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 02:16, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. Quick, tell google :-) Seriously, Flex is quicker to work with, but DHTML/AJAX is perfectly robust. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Anatole, you might want to look into Atlas, Backbase, Spry, etc (Ajax frameworks). None of these were available 5 years ago and a lot of the extra code is done for you.On 6/13/06, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom,Google uses very small _javascript_ libraries obsuficated to smallest sizelibraries, cached, and often claims the product is beta. They have hugenetworking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliabilitythat is out of reach for 99% of the competition. They are delivering productioncomponents (Toolbars, etc) not as AJAX, but activeX and plugins. If you arebuilding few screens with functionality that has to be delivered to billions of people, use AJAX. If you have to build APPLICATION - with hundreds ofpages, reports, dashboards, etc. please read on.RIA requires a lot of client side code. Compiled Framework.swc is 2MB , theUI-only sources are over 7MB. The UI portion of framework we have written in 1999-2002 was over 3MB- including DataGrid, Report, and 70 other controls.Robustness and performance of _javascript_: It is too slow and there is nomachanism in the browser to insure the competeness of _javascript_ downloads. You do not get exception if _javascript_ has not been loaded. There is no wayto recover other then wrap code with watchdog code and try to check if thesecondary code was loaded/try to reload otherwise. Of course, there is no guarantee that watchdog code is loaded either.As a result, even theslightest problems on the network level require huge efforts on theframework level. Even if cached, _javascript_ has to be parsed andpre-compiled on every page refresh. Add browser incompatibilities, typing errors that have not been caught by compiler because there is nocompiler/strong code checking) and add really big application code base andyou will get my point.It is all curable on the system level. For demanding applications we had to develop following system components outside the browser (just to supportAJAX and business needed functionality missing in the browser)1. reliable pluggable protocol on the top of HTTP(s) to support guaranteed delivery/caching of data and code2. cached factories for _javascript_ to allow faster instantiation ofclient-side _javascript_3. print tempates enabler to allow full control of the printing environmentwithout browser limitations. The list goes on and onBottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can tryto build it in _javascript_, but after trying for 5 years I began to think itis unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned enhancements, but they are pusing alternatives to AJAX of their own, soFlash seems the only option with enough market penetration.Sincerely,Anatole Tartakovsky- Original Message - From: Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 02:16, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. Quick, tell google :-) Seriously, Flex is quicker to work with, but DHTML/AJAX is perfectly robust. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM~---Flexcoders Mailing ListFAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txtSearch Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 14:02, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Tom, Google uses very small JavaScript libraries obsuficated to smallest size libraries, cached, and often claims the product is beta. They have huge networking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliability that is out of reach for 99% of the competition. There is a difference between robustness/reliability (Flex and AJAX equal) and scalability, which is were Flex wins. Bottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can try to build it in JavaScript, but after trying for 5 years I began to think it is unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned I don't think it is- things like Spry and Google's Java-to-DHTML make it very very easy, and it works. I'd rather deliver a full blown *app* in Flex though, given the choice. Depends how 'free' Flex 2 is, though, for a lot of shops. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Tom, Robustness/reliability is an ability to recover from errors. That is the difference between TCP/IP stack and UDP protocol. There is no built-in way to insure JavaScript delivery in the browser. There is very little control on the application on the way it requests the data. Flex provides alternative approaches on connectivity by isolating transports and working/recovering them behind the scene. Bundling requests, switching protocols and handling background communications are just the tip of the iceberg - and they are not incidental. I was thinking the same way as you in 1999, but 5 years after that, after delivering dozens of large Ajax apps over the Web and finding hundreds of bugs in servers, routers, browsers, firewalls and settings of anti-virus software, aside from dropped connection and deployment issues with ISP providers in 3rd world countries, I would rather save someone a trouble. Believe me, we made all remote scripting and controls very easy to program and integrate - much easier then the frameworks you are referencing. It works perfectly, and is very fast on local network or reliable broadband. Bottom line, it will be your application responsibility to find out why compressed httprequest hangs over https for a particular server/router - and nothing in google experience working in non-https environment will prepare you for that. The fact is that these bugs/incompatibilities in network/browser exist and outside of the application control - they are part of the browser/infrastructure. As far as free part - free means that someone else pays for it. For that matter, I think that Flex model with free SDK is sufficient for anyone who is contempt with other free technologies. For a tool maker free model means they will sell services or side products that increase time to market or reliability which I believe the main issues for the original post. If you have income generating application then time to the market and reliability are more important. Sincerely, Anatole - Original Message - From: Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 14:02, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: Tom, Google uses very small JavaScript libraries obsuficated to smallest size libraries, cached, and often claims the product is beta. They have huge networking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliability that is out of reach for 99% of the competition. There is a difference between robustness/reliability (Flex and AJAX equal) and scalability, which is were Flex wins. Bottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can try to build it in JavaScript, but after trying for 5 years I began to think it is unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned I don't think it is- things like Spry and Google's Java-to-DHTML make it very very easy, and it works. I'd rather deliver a full blown *app* in Flex though, given the choice. Depends how 'free' Flex 2 is, though, for a lot of shops. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
John, I did. I also did a lot of code that is identicalto thecore of these frameworks. I am talking explicitly of the things that are not controlled by _javascript_ like loading of _javascript_ itself or connectivity issues that attribute to robustness of the browser application and not the framework itself. Thank you, Anatole - Original Message - From: John C. Bland II To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? Anatole, you might want to look into Atlas, Backbase, Spry, etc (Ajax frameworks). None of these were available 5 years ago and a lot of the extra code is done for you. On 6/13/06, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom,Google uses very small _javascript_ libraries obsuficated to smallest sizelibraries, cached, and often claims the product is "beta". They have hugenetworking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliabilitythat is out of reach for 99% of the competition. They are delivering productioncomponents (Toolbars, etc) not as AJAX, but activeX and plugins. If you arebuilding few screens with functionality that has to be delivered to billions of people, use AJAX. If you have to build APPLICATION - with hundreds ofpages, reports, dashboards, etc. please read on.RIA requires a lot of client side code. Compiled Framework.swc is 2MB , theUI-only sources are over 7MB. The UI portion of framework we have written in 1999-2002 was over 3MB- including DataGrid, Report, and 70 other controls.Robustness and performance of _javascript_: It is too slow and there is nomachanism in the browser to insure the competeness of _javascript_ downloads. You do not get exception if _javascript_ has not been loaded. There is no wayto recover other then wrap code with watchdog code and try to check if thesecondary code was loaded/try to reload otherwise. Of course, there is no guarantee that watchdog code is loaded either.As a result, even theslightest problems on the network level require huge efforts on theframework level. Even if cached, _javascript_ has to be parsed andpre-"compiled" on every page refresh. Add browser incompatibilities, typing errors that have not been caught by compiler because there is nocompiler/strong code checking) and add really big application code base andyou will get my point.It is all curable on the system level. For demanding applications we had to develop following system components outside the browser (just to supportAJAX and business needed functionality missing in the browser)1. reliable pluggable protocol on the top of HTTP(s) to support guaranteeddelivery/caching of data and code2. cached factories for _javascript_ to allow faster instantiation ofclient-side _javascript_3. print tempates enabler to allow full control of the printing environmentwithout browser limitations. The list goes on and onBottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can tryto build it in _javascript_, but after trying for 5 years I began to think itis unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned enhancements, but they are pusing alternatives to AJAX of their own, soFlash seems the only option with enough market penetration.Sincerely,Anatole Tartakovsky- Original Message -From: "Tom Chiverton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 02:16, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. Quick, tell google :-) Seriously, Flex is quicker to work with, but DHTML/AJAX is perfectly robust. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.If you have received this
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
www.xmlsp.com - Original Message - From: John C. Bland II To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? Anatole, you might want to look into Atlas, Backbase, Spry, etc (Ajax frameworks). None of these were available 5 years ago and a lot of the extra code is done for you. On 6/13/06, Anatole Tartakovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom,Google uses very small _javascript_ libraries obsuficated to smallest sizelibraries, cached, and often claims the product is "beta". They have hugenetworking infrastructure to insure highest performanc/reliabilitythat is out of reach for 99% of the competition. They are delivering productioncomponents (Toolbars, etc) not as AJAX, but activeX and plugins. If you arebuilding few screens with functionality that has to be delivered to billions of people, use AJAX. If you have to build APPLICATION - with hundreds ofpages, reports, dashboards, etc. please read on.RIA requires a lot of client side code. Compiled Framework.swc is 2MB , theUI-only sources are over 7MB. The UI portion of framework we have written in 1999-2002 was over 3MB- including DataGrid, Report, and 70 other controls.Robustness and performance of _javascript_: It is too slow and there is nomachanism in the browser to insure the competeness of _javascript_ downloads. You do not get exception if _javascript_ has not been loaded. There is no wayto recover other then wrap code with watchdog code and try to check if thesecondary code was loaded/try to reload otherwise. Of course, there is no guarantee that watchdog code is loaded either.As a result, even theslightest problems on the network level require huge efforts on theframework level. Even if cached, _javascript_ has to be parsed andpre-"compiled" on every page refresh. Add browser incompatibilities, typing errors that have not been caught by compiler because there is nocompiler/strong code checking) and add really big application code base andyou will get my point.It is all curable on the system level. For demanding applications we had to develop following system components outside the browser (just to supportAJAX and business needed functionality missing in the browser)1. reliable pluggable protocol on the top of HTTP(s) to support guaranteeddelivery/caching of data and code2. cached factories for _javascript_ to allow faster instantiation ofclient-side _javascript_3. print tempates enabler to allow full control of the printing environmentwithout browser limitations. The list goes on and onBottom line, serious AJAX apps require Flash Player equivalent. You can tryto build it in _javascript_, but after trying for 5 years I began to think itis unrealistic. We tried to get browser makers adopt the forementioned enhancements, but they are pusing alternatives to AJAX of their own, soFlash seems the only option with enough market penetration.Sincerely,Anatole Tartakovsky- Original Message -From: "Tom Chiverton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.comSent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? On Tuesday 13 June 2006 02:16, Anatole Tartakovsky wrote: framework) and switched to Flex after it became obvious that AJAX is not rich/robust enough for enterprise applications. Quick, tell google :-) Seriously, Flex is quicker to work with, but DHTML/AJAX is perfectly robust. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards -- Flexcode
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
On Friday 09 June 2006 18:37, Carson Hager wrote: We know quite a bit about ThinkCAP as well as Flex. Unfortunately, this is going to be a manual process. There really is no good way to go from Hopefully 90% of the server-side code can be reused though, I guess ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Hopefully 100% of the server-side is reuseable (not going against Tom...just a hope). If the Ajax site/app is done right then you will only have to change your view (front-end). In this case, build the UI with Flex and connect it to your backend...done! It SHOULDN'T be a big issue but it seriously depends on your backend. Here's a thought (keep in mind I know nothing about ThinkCAP):Use ExternalInterface in Flex to talk to ThinkCAP. This way your backend has NOTHING to do with your front-end. ThinkCAP would play as a proxy of sorts by allowing data retrieval, etc via _javascript_ calls. Just a thought...On 6/12/06, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 09 June 2006 18:37, Carson Hager wrote: We know quite a bit about ThinkCAP as well as Flex. Unfortunately, this is going to be a manual process. There really is no good way to go fromHopefully 90% of the server-side code can be reused though, I guess ?--Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP.Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF.A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITYThis email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged.If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents.If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com.We are pleased to announce that Halliwells LLP has been voted AIM Lawyer of the Year at the 2005 Growth Company Awards Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--Home is just a click away. Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM~---Flexcoders Mailing ListFAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txtSearch Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- John C. Bland III do what I can do when I can do it. - Chris Tucker, Money Talkshttp://www.gotoandstop.org - Home of FMUG.az __._,_.___ -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Web site design development Computer software development Software design and development Macromedia flex Software development best practice YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "flexcoders" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Lets say that you have been developing an AJAX application (using ClearNova's ThinkCap) and you are displeased with the result. What options might one have to convert that AJAX application over to Flex? Is there a way to convert an AJAX application over to Flex? If Flex is not a good option for working with or converting from AJAX, what other RIA platforms could be used that would allow the AJAX work that has been done to not be a total loss? My sense is that conversion to Flex is a long shot, but I thought I would ask anyway. TIA Dan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM ~- -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex?
Dan, We know quite a bit about ThinkCAP as well as Flex. Unfortunately, this is going to be a manual process. There really is no good way to go from TC to Flex or any other RIA. That being said, I'd agree that what you're doing in principle isa wise choice. Carson Carson Hager Cynergy Systems, Inc. http://www.cynergysystems.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: 866-CYNERGY Mobile: 1.703.489.6466 From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of gwilowSent: Friday, June 09, 2006 10:21 AMTo: flexcoders@yahoogroups.comSubject: [flexcoders] Convert AJAX to Flex? Lets say that you have been developing an AJAX application (usingClearNova's ThinkCap) and you are displeased with the result. Whatoptions might one have to convert that AJAX application over to Flex?Is there a way to convert an AJAX application over to Flex? If Flexis not a good option for working with or converting from AJAX, whatother RIA platforms could be used that would allow the AJAX work thathas been done to not be a total loss? My sense is that conversion to Flex is a long shot, but I thought Iwould ask anyway.TIADan __._,_.___ -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com SPONSORED LINKS Web site design development Computer software development Software design and development Macromedia flex Software development best practice YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "flexcoders" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
