Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
fields support? - Dan On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At least it has forced Adobe to make improvements to Flash, like better > RTL support and the overall text support in general... Look at the new > text rendering and fields support in the upcoming Flash 10 Player... > > > -- > Flexcoders Mailing List > FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
At least it has forced Adobe to make improvements to Flash, like better RTL support and the overall text support in general... Look at the new text rendering and fields support in the upcoming Flash 10 Player... -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Wednesday 13 Feb 2008, Maciek Sakrejda wrote: > another", Microsoft is in a unique position, given its market > penetration, to be much more guilty of this than anyone else. Indeed, it's the only one to have been found guilty *in court* of abusing that position, on both sides of the pond recently. > considered as a factor). Aye. There are many others, as he says. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to ambassadorially compete viral data on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Exactly (even if the term 'FUD' has become a little diluted). Jon attacked Robert's comments on Microsoft's past as irrelevant to the discussion of the technology, but they certainly are relevant. Even if "almost every software company is guilty of that in some manner or another", Microsoft is in a unique position, given its market penetration, to be much more guilty of this than anyone else. As someone picking a technology for an important project, it would be foolish to ignore this (not that this should control the decision, but it should be considered as a factor). -Original Message- From: Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:27:35 + On Wednesday 13 Feb 2008, Jon Bradley wrote: > whatever. If the technology is good, clients demand it and it makes > money, I use it. What worries me is that when MS technology *isn't* good, clients still demand it because MS has FUD'ed them to death.
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Wednesday 13 Feb 2008, Jon Bradley wrote: > whatever. If the technology is good, clients demand it and it makes > money, I use it. What worries me is that when MS technology *isn't* good, clients still demand it because MS has FUD'ed them to death. -- Tom Chiverton, writing this from KDE's groupware client even though we have an Exchange server :-) This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Feb 13, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Tom Chiverton wrote: Conduct in the past often informs future conduct. Where a company has used a product as a weapon to bankrupt the competion, at the expense of features, as MS has done in the past, it is hard to see how it is not going to do so again i.e. make an effort with Silverlight up until Flex is Netscape'ed at which point Silverlight will also be left to fester. Witness IE, among other projects at MS. Almost every software company is guilty of that in some manner or another. I get that all the time in the vfx industry - companies dead ending production software that is a key component to a pipeline. In the end, it all boils down to money. In the case of Microsoft, eh, whatever. If the technology is good, clients demand it and it makes money, I use it. It just so happens that the opportunities for monetization of creative and programming services are much greater with the Flex platform than they are with Silverlight. - j
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Wednesday 13 Feb 2008, Jon Bradley wrote: > What Microsoft has done in it's history to people is irrelevant. You Conduct in the past often informs future conduct. Where a company has used a product as a weapon to bankrupt the competion, at the expense of features, as MS has done in the past, it is hard to see how it is not going to do so again i.e. make an effort with Silverlight up until Flex is Netscape'ed at which point Silverlight will also be left to fester. Witness IE, among other projects at MS. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to completely create revolutionary schemas on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Feb 12, 2008, at 8:28 PM, Robert Thompson wrote: The thing developers need to be concerned about is Microsoft's history. [big snip] Honestly. What Microsoft has done in it's history to people is irrelevant. You obviously care deeply, given your rough road and history with them. That's fine, but please don't taint these discussions that are quite targeted at the technical aspects of these two platforms. Add something useful to the thread - like specific reasons why Flex, as a technology is a better investment for a business than Silverlight. I'm following the discussion because it's also something that's important to what I do. Having to sift through a bunch of historical garbage that's hella OT to the question at hand leaves a bad taste in my mouth. - j
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
On Wednesday 13 Feb 2008, Weyert de Boer wrote: > Mono/Moonlight to compile Silverlight projects on like Linux or MacOSX. Don't be fooled into this. Microsoft *will* wait just long enough for Moonlight to prove it has a chance of making a 'nix version work, thus letting MS claim its as cross platform as Flex/AIR, and then release Silverlight 3, with a licence that only lets it run on Windows/Mac. -- Tom Chiverton Helping to revolutionarily seize real-time segments on: http://thefalken.livejournal.com This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
I would agree, that's the last status that I know of, that there is not a development environment for SilverLight under MacOSX or any other platform except Windows. Only the player is available multi-platform. I've been there and done that regarding trusting Microsoft as a platform for any intellectual property whatsoever. Never again. "Merrill, Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think he's talking about the player and you're talking about development. Jason Merrill Bank of America GT&O L&LD Solutions Design & Development eTools & Multimedia Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community - From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoshMcDonald Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:42 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People,Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) As far as I knew you needed Visual Studio to develop for silverlight, has that changed? On Feb 13, 2008 10:04 AM, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's works fine for me under MacOSX. Indeed you can't run Blend under that platform. In my opinion Silverlight is only interesting as a user interface engine for those Windows Mobile devices only that will take a long while ;) -- "Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls, It tolls forthee." :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
FlashLite already outperforms Silverlight in my opinion, and with Papervision 3D creating such great 3D api's, I see no reason at all for anyone to move out from a perfectly safe place with Adobe, to crawl over to Microsoft, who has shown their behavior patterns so consistently in bad-faith and Predatory behavior. The thing developers need to be concerned about is Microsoft's history. No matter where they announce they'll meet us developers half way, you can be sure of where it's headed ultimately. SilverLight was initially only announced as a viewer for MacOSX. If this has changed, it's not because Microsoft likes you and wants to embrace you (any such thought should cause an instinctive reaction of danger; don't let yourself for one second think Microsoft has been humbled and will act in good faith; they will eat up everything like a devouring glutton if given the chance). I've been developing for Windows since 1988, and after much mercy am totally at odds with any kind of support for Microsoft on the client-side, only support of customers on the server side as needed. The time for billg to kiss and make up to Jobs' isn't after Gates has gone to great lengths with his upper echelon of Ballmer etc. and after Jobs' has maintained his integrity and turned out to be of far greater wisdom in the long. It's such a great ending to this long unfolding story to see Jobs' innovation and patience win out over such a blatantly sick personality as Gates' has operated as CEO in the past. Time comes us all.Gates will live out the remainder of his years having to learn that this is not a Survival of this fittest world; there is such a think as "spirit" and "soul" and he has neither. Microsoft has had enough mercy that it has betrayed to last several generations. Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's works fine for me under MacOSX. Indeed you can't run Blend under that platform. In my opinion Silverlight is only interesting as a user interface engine for those Windows Mobile devices only that will take a long while ;) - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
I think he's talking about the player and you're talking about
development.
Jason Merrill
Bank of America
GT&O L&LD Solutions Design & Development
eTools & Multimedia
Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community
From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh McDonald
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:42 PM
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from
Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
As far as I knew you needed Visual Studio to develop for
silverlight, has that changed?
On Feb 13, 2008 10:04 AM, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:
It's works fine for me under MacOSX. Indeed you can't
run Blend under
that platform. In my opinion Silverlight is only
interesting as a user
interface engine for those Windows Mobile devices
only that will
take a long while ;)
--
"Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls, It tolls
for thee."
:: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald
:: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Yeah, probably. I think you can use the smcs compiler part of Mono/Moonlight to compile Silverlight projects on like Linux or MacOSX. Of course, you won't have the lovely Visual Studio IDE, though. > As far as I knew you needed Visual Studio to develop for silverlight, > has that changed? > > >
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
As far as I knew you needed Visual Studio to develop for silverlight, has that changed? On Feb 13, 2008 10:04 AM, Weyert de Boer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's works fine for me under MacOSX. Indeed you can't run Blend under > that platform. In my opinion Silverlight is only interesting as a user > interface engine for those Windows Mobile devices only that will > take a long while ;) > > -- "Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee." :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
It's works fine for me under MacOSX. Indeed you can't run Blend under that platform. In my opinion Silverlight is only interesting as a user interface engine for those Windows Mobile devices only that will take a long while ;)
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
A perfectly valid reason to avoid Silverlight is that it's Windows-only. A lot of UI developers / graphic designers are Mac guys. -J On Feb 13, 2008 7:42 AM, Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Fair enough. I appreciate the explanation and though I think you might > be fighting a losing battle trying to get people to ditch Windows as their > desktop, I respect the fact that you're willing to do it anyhow. =] > > > > Cheers, > > > > Kevin > > > -- > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On > Behalf Of *Robert Thompson > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:17 PM > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! > (Microsoft's Legal Record) > > > > Also Kevin, I think you might have mis-interpreted by what I meant by "I > will only use Microsoft products on the server". > > To clarify, I did not mean I will only choose MS server products on the > server, but that, of all of Microsoft technologies there are, the only ones > I will use, are on the Server. > > I am completely ditching Windows Vista and any support or any use of > Microsoft software, I'm only going to use Mac OSX, and will continue to > support customers that I've developed solutions for Windows for, only for > the Windows Server platform, not for any client side technology whatsoever. > > I do not intend to make the mistakes I have in the past - ever - the > cannot be trusted period. But my risk is minimal by supporting a Server > technology if I have to or if the customer wants it. If they want > Silverlight, I'll tell them why they shouldn't be using Silverlight or even > using Windows for that matter as their personal computer...until the day I > die, I'll testify to that. > > -r > > > *Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote: > > I've never been an advocate to either side of the debate, but don't you > think you're being quite hypocritical in saying that the client aspect of > Microsoft is evil, but that you still actively use the server products? > > > > If you're looking for a reason to not go with Silverlight, than go on the > tried and true backup that no matter what Microsoft says, it will never be > as flexible and well adopted as Flash already is. Adobe has the client > market covered between Acrobat and Flash, so I won't be losing any sleep > anytime soon. > > > > !k > > > ------ > > *From:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On > Behalf Of *Robert Thompson > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM > *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! > (Microsoft's Legal Record) > > > > Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: > > I am Robert D. Thompson. > > Here is Federally Published public record of something, > > > http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html > > I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe > it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client > side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and > then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac > Electronics. > > Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of > Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known > through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC > national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an > attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven > Ballmer. > > - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing > ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API > and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can > you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got > the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well > without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly > abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as > saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and > Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked > for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued > this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State > At
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Fair enough. I appreciate the explanation and though I think you might be fighting a losing battle trying to get people to ditch Windows as their desktop, I respect the fact that you're willing to do it anyhow. =] Cheers, Kevin _ From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:17 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Also Kevin, I think you might have mis-interpreted by what I meant by "I will only use Microsoft products on the server". To clarify, I did not mean I will only choose MS server products on the server, but that, of all of Microsoft technologies there are, the only ones I will use, are on the Server. I am completely ditching Windows Vista and any support or any use of Microsoft software, I'm only going to use Mac OSX, and will continue to support customers that I've developed solutions for Windows for, only for the Windows Server platform, not for any client side technology whatsoever. I do not intend to make the mistakes I have in the past - ever - the cannot be trusted period. But my risk is minimal by supporting a Server technology if I have to or if the customer wants it. If they want Silverlight, I'll tell them why they shouldn't be using Silverlight or even using Windows for that matter as their personal computer...until the day I die, I'll testify to that. -r Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've never been an advocate to either side of the debate, but don't you think you're being quite hypocritical in saying that the client aspect of Microsoft is evil, but that you still actively use the server products? If you're looking for a reason to not go with Silverlight, than go on the tried and true backup that no matter what Microsoft says, it will never be as flexible and well adopted as Flash already is. Adobe has the client market covered between Acrobat and Flash, so I won't be losing any sleep anytime soon. !k _ From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: I am Robert D. Thompson. Here is Federally Published public record of something, http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac Electronics. Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven Ballmer. - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State Attorney generals who have had much harsher things to say about MS than anyone on my site www.ActiveCommunity.com - Microsoft is losing ground to Apple, to OpenGL (look into Papervision 3D, it's amazing and can run on ALL PLATFORMS; MS will limit other platforms to a viewer only and it's been buggy as far as I've heard). - I am a .NET Programmer who specializes in using ActionScript 3.0 and integrating it with SQL Server 2005 using stored procedures. I will only use Microsoft products on the server because, (a) I still like the server but will never invest in trusting Microsoft for ANY Client end software as they will betray you in the end; don't do it, you will lose to them if you trust them, (b) I have found a Gold Certified Microsoft provider who, in
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Also Kevin, I think you might have mis-interpreted by what I meant by "I will only use Microsoft products on the server". To clarify, I did not mean I will only choose MS server products on the server, but that, of all of Microsoft technologies there are, the only ones I will use, are on the Server. I am completely ditching Windows Vista and any support or any use of Microsoft software, I'm only going to use Mac OSX, and will continue to support customers that I've developed solutions for Windows for, only for the Windows Server platform, not for any client side technology whatsoever. I do not intend to make the mistakes I have in the past - ever - the cannot be trusted period. But my risk is minimal by supporting a Server technology if I have to or if the customer wants it. If they want Silverlight, I'll tell them why they shouldn't be using Silverlight or even using Windows for that matter as their personal computer...until the day I die, I'll testify to that. -r Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ive never been an advocate to either side of the debate, but dont you think youre being quite hypocritical in saying that the client aspect of Microsoft is evil, but that you still actively use the server products? If youre looking for a reason to not go with Silverlight, than go on the tried and true backup that no matter what Microsoft says, it will never be as flexible and well adopted as Flash already is. Adobe has the client market covered between Acrobat and Flash, so I wont be losing any sleep anytime soon. !k - From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: I am Robert D. Thompson. Here is Federally Published public record of something, http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac Electronics. Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven Ballmer. - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State Attorney generals who have had much harsher things to say about MS than anyone on my site www.ActiveCommunity.com - Microsoft is losing ground to Apple, to OpenGL (look into Papervision 3D, it's amazing and can run on ALL PLATFORMS; MS will limit other platforms to a viewer only and it's been buggy as far as I've heard). - I am a .NET Programmer who specializes in using ActionScript 3.0 and integrating it with SQL Server 2005 using stored procedures. I will only use Microsoft products on the server because, (a) I still like the server but will never invest in trusting Microsoft for ANY Client end software as they will betray you in the end; don't do it, you will lose to them if you trust them, (b) I have found a Gold Certified Microsoft provider who, in contrast to Microsoft, keeps their integrity intact. Use what Microsoft has to offer, but if you are to deploy anything that will be distributed on a client end -- I can ensure you that your efforts should consider the legal record of Microsoft that involves, Patent Theft (Stac Electronics), Bad-Faith hacking of licensed code (SUN Micrososystems), Bad-Faith Funding of anything that will
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Quite the opposite - it would only be hypocritical if I were to not recognize the strengths and less risk of server technologies that I use and can choose from, including ColdFusion, which I have used, .PHP which I use a lot, ans ASP.Net which I use some, and even Classic ASP, it's easy to retrofit old ASP XML REST Service code to fit the Client. There's very little risk on the server side technologies and I were to not recognize that, it would be called a "polluted opinion" (i.e. not honest). So the idea of me using all server technologies but staying away from the risk of investing in Microsoft on the client side is perfectly reasonable. If I were to not admit that the server technology is still viable and less risky, now that would be hypocritical - you can't do both! Kevin Aebig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ive never been an advocate to either side of the debate, but dont you think youre being quite hypocritical in saying that the client aspect of Microsoft is evil, but that you still actively use the server products? If youre looking for a reason to not go with Silverlight, than go on the tried and true backup that no matter what Microsoft says, it will never be as flexible and well adopted as Flash already is. Adobe has the client market covered between Acrobat and Flash, so I wont be losing any sleep anytime soon. !k - From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: I am Robert D. Thompson. Here is Federally Published public record of something, http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac Electronics. Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven Ballmer. - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State Attorney generals who have had much harsher things to say about MS than anyone on my site www.ActiveCommunity.com - Microsoft is losing ground to Apple, to OpenGL (look into Papervision 3D, it's amazing and can run on ALL PLATFORMS; MS will limit other platforms to a viewer only and it's been buggy as far as I've heard). - I am a .NET Programmer who specializes in using ActionScript 3.0 and integrating it with SQL Server 2005 using stored procedures. I will only use Microsoft products on the server because, (a) I still like the server but will never invest in trusting Microsoft for ANY Client end software as they will betray you in the end; don't do it, you will lose to them if you trust them, (b) I have found a Gold Certified Microsoft provider who, in contrast to Microsoft, keeps their integrity intact. Use what Microsoft has to offer, but if you are to deploy anything that will be distributed on a client end -- I can ensure you that your efforts should consider the legal record of Microsoft that involves, Patent Theft (Stac Electronics), Bad-Faith hacking of licensed code (SUN Micrososystems), Bad-Faith Funding of anything that will pull down competitors (see Funding and Astroturf campaigns and research the SCO v IBM legal history). You've been forwarned; DO NOT TRUST MICROSOFT *EVER* on the Client side, or you will lose your intelle
RE: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
I've never been an advocate to either side of the debate, but don't you think you're being quite hypocritical in saying that the client aspect of Microsoft is evil, but that you still actively use the server products? If you're looking for a reason to not go with Silverlight, than go on the tried and true backup that no matter what Microsoft says, it will never be as flexible and well adopted as Flash already is. Adobe has the client market covered between Acrobat and Flash, so I won't be losing any sleep anytime soon. !k _ From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:50 PM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record) Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: I am Robert D. Thompson. Here is Federally Published public record of something, http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac Electronics. Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven Ballmer. - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State Attorney generals who have had much harsher things to say about MS than anyone on my site www.ActiveCommunity.com - Microsoft is losing ground to Apple, to OpenGL (look into Papervision 3D, it's amazing and can run on ALL PLATFORMS; MS will limit other platforms to a viewer only and it's been buggy as far as I've heard). - I am a .NET Programmer who specializes in using ActionScript 3.0 and integrating it with SQL Server 2005 using stored procedures. I will only use Microsoft products on the server because, (a) I still like the server but will never invest in trusting Microsoft for ANY Client end software as they will betray you in the end; don't do it, you will lose to them if you trust them, (b) I have found a Gold Certified Microsoft provider who, in contrast to Microsoft, keeps their integrity intact. Use what Microsoft has to offer, but if you are to deploy anything that will be distributed on a client end -- I can ensure you that your efforts should consider the legal record of Microsoft that involves, Patent Theft (Stac Electronics), Bad-Faith hacking of licensed code (SUN Micrososystems), Bad-Faith Funding of anything that will pull down competitors (see Funding and Astroturf campaigns and research the SCO v IBM legal history). You've been forwarned; DO NOT TRUST MICROSOFT *EVER* on the Client side, or you will lose your intellectual property and your initiative if you can ever believe the constant truth that "He who ignores History is bound to repeat the Mistakes of the past". -r "Merrill, Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Here is a lot written by Jesse Warden on Silverlight from his Flash/Flex perspective: http://jessewarden. <http://jessewarden.com/category/silverlight> com/category/silverlight Also, here is a list I compiled last summer after speaking with a Silverlight engineer. Some things in Silverlight may have changed since then, hope this helps some. Pros Integrates very very well with .NET/Visual Studio Programming in C#, VisualBasic, Javascript, Python, or Ruby - CLR (Common Language Runtime) Easier for .NET developers to start developing for than Flash Microsoft deep-pocket backing and product integration All code remains external, no republishing after coded update like you do with Flash Runs on Mac OSX, Windows XP and Vista Cons Requi
Re: [flexcoders] Adobe People, Save me from Silverlight! (Microsoft's Legal Record)
Here is a big reason why NOT to go with Silver-Light: I am Robert D. Thompson. Here is Federally Published public record of something, http://www.fedcirc.us/case-reviews/thompson-v.-microsoft-corporation-4.html I will not discuss the above public record, but will discuss why I believe it would be Historically of poor judgment to trust Microsoft with a Client side technology, including it's lost to SUN Microsystems for licensing and then hacking it's client-side technology, and other cases such as Stac Electronics. Steven Ballmer went to Country Day Prep academy here in my homestate of Michigan and I know several people there through individuals I've known through Track and Field and running in the Junior (high-school level) TAC national championship team with through regionals. I've also had an attorney who has gone to that same school at the same time as Steven Ballmer. - OpenGL is standard, Microsoft will force DirectX even though it's losing ground to OpenGL among the vendors. It will find ways to tie into the API and hack things up like they did in the SUN MICROSYSTEMS's Java Hack - can you imagine; these people at Microsoft actually licensed Sun's Java and got the source code to it and hacked it up so it wouldn't run on Windows IE well without bugs. Even Rick Segal has posted comments after being quietly abandoned by Microsoft after the "Steve Barkto Incident" (google that) as saying that Microsoft hi-jacked the efforts of both Apple's QuickTime and Blue Mountain software through unethical methods and when the court asked for source code record, Microsoft said it was not available and Segal argued this was ridiculous (google "Blue Mountain v Microsoft". I talk about State Attorney generals who have had much harsher things to say about MS than anyone on my site www.ActiveCommunity.com - Microsoft is losing ground to Apple, to OpenGL (look into Papervision 3D, it's amazing and can run on ALL PLATFORMS; MS will limit other platforms to a viewer only and it's been buggy as far as I've heard). - I am a .NET Programmer who specializes in using ActionScript 3.0 and integrating it with SQL Server 2005 using stored procedures. I will only use Microsoft products on the server because, (a) I still like the server but will never invest in trusting Microsoft for ANY Client end software as they will betray you in the end; don't do it, you will lose to them if you trust them, (b) I have found a Gold Certified Microsoft provider who, in contrast to Microsoft, keeps their integrity intact. Use what Microsoft has to offer, but if you are to deploy anything that will be distributed on a client end -- I can ensure you that your efforts should consider the legal record of Microsoft that involves, Patent Theft (Stac Electronics), Bad-Faith hacking of licensed code (SUN Micrososystems), Bad-Faith Funding of anything that will pull down competitors (see Funding and Astroturf campaigns and research the SCO v IBM legal history). You've been forwarned; DO NOT TRUST MICROSOFT *EVER* on the Client side, or you will lose your intellectual property and your initiative if you can ever believe the constant truth that "He who ignores History is bound to repeat the Mistakes of the past". -r "Merrill, Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Here is a lot written by Jesse Warden on Silverlight from his Flash/Flex perspective: http://jessewarden.com/category/silverlight Also, here is a list I compiled last summer after speaking with a Silverlight engineer. Some things in Silverlight may have changed since then, hope this helps some. Pros Integrates very very well with .NET/Visual Studio Programming in C#, VisualBasic, Javascript, Python, or Ruby - CLR (Common Language Runtime) Easier for .NET developers to start developing for than Flash Microsoft deep-pocket backing and product integration All code remains external, no republishing after coded update like you do with Flash Runs on Mac OSX, Windows XP and Vista Cons Requires programming in C#, Javascript (inconsistent across browsers), VisualBasic, Python, or Ruby Not geared towards multimedia artists, learning community Not supported or pushed by the bank, virtually no market penetration outside the bank Not a mature product, not market-tested Does not integrated with Adobe's creative design tools Is not currently supported on Cell phones and several PDAs Does not support Flash media (.swf or .flv) i.e. Captivate or Articulate Visual experiences demo'ed so far are not nearly as impressive as Flash Silverlight is geared more towards RIA development, so it's more of a Flex competitor than standard Flash Does not run on older Mac OS, Linux and older versions of Windows Does not support alpha channel video CD and local drive Silverlight runtime not available as publishing option Expression Designer, Expression Blend used to design Siliverlight applications are immatur
