Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
Hi Vivian, Fred - should this work with MSVC9? Only if the required symbols are defined. It compiles and runs, but I get this error: Cannot start scenery download. Rsync scenery server is undefined. The server input in the menu item is blank, and does not accept any input Please pull latest SimGear Regards, -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://www.youtube.com/user/fgfred64 Videos -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
Please pull latest SimGear And Flightgear too -Fred -- Frédéric Bouvier http://www.youtube.com/user/fgfred64 Videos -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
Fred wrote Fred wrote Please pull latest SimGear And Flightgear too Well, I thought I had - otherwise I wouldn't have re-compiled and run it, would I? And it does compile and run - even provides error messages. Vivian -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
ThorstenB wrote: The feature reuses the terrasync sources and relies on a subversion client. Either using built-in subversion (when libsvn is installed, which is recommended). Otherwise, fgfs tries calling an external utility (svn) for downloads. I'm observing one minor issue: The SVN client lib is available, it's being found by CMake in SimGear: -- Looking for svn_client_checkout in svn_client-1 -- Looking for svn_client_checkout in svn_client-1 - found -- Looking for svn_cmdline_init in svn_subr-1 -- Looking for svn_cmdline_init in svn_subr-1 - found -- Looking for svn_ra_initialize in svn_ra-1 -- Looking for svn_ra_initialize in svn_ra-1 - found -- Found LIBSVN: 1 -- libsvn found, enabling in SimGear It's being found by Automake in FlightGear: checking svn_client.h usability... yes checking svn_client.h presence... yes checking for svn_client.h... yes Using built-in subversion (libsvn) for scenery downloads. checking for library containing svn_client_checkout... -lsvn_client-1 checking for library containing svn_cmdline_init... none required checking for library containing svn_ra_initialize... none required It's linked into FlightGear: jive: 12:29:42 ~ which fgfs /opt/FlightGear/bin/fgfs jive: 12:29:45 ~ ldd `which fgfs`| grep svn libsvn_client-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_client-1.so.1 (0x7f2d82c4e000) libsvn_wc-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_wc-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7dee7000) libsvn_ra-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_ra-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7dcdd000) libsvn_delta-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_delta-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7dad2000) libsvn_diff-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_diff-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7d8c6000) libsvn_subr-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_subr-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7d675000) libsvn_ra_local-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_ra_local-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7c586000) libsvn_repos-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_repos-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7c35b000) libsvn_fs-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_fs-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7c154000) libsvn_ra_svn-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_ra_svn-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7bf3d000) libsvn_ra_neon-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_ra_neon-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7bd18000) libsvn_ra_serf-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_ra_serf-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7baf3000) libsvn_fs_fs-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_fs_fs-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7af6) libsvn_fs_base-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_fs_base-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7ad3) libsvn_fs_util-1.so.1 = /usr/lib/libsvn_fs_util-1.so.1 (0x7f2d7ab2e000) But the dialogue box Automatic Scenery Download says: Built-in SVN available: false Anyhow, the scenery-dir property is set correctly (because I did) and FG is properly calling the external 'svn' command :-) SimGear, FlightGear, Base Package from GIT as of this morning (10:00 UTC), SimGear was configured via CMake with -D ENABLE_LIBSVN=ON, FlightGear was configured via Autoconf with --with-libsvn. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
It was not a reproach. I just committed fixes at the time I sent those messages -Fred - Vivian Meazza a écrit : Fred wrote Fred wrote Please pull latest SimGear And Flightgear too Well, I thought I had - otherwise I wouldn't have re-compiled and run it, would I? And it does compile and run - even provides error messages. -- Frédéric Bouvier http://www.youtube.com/user/fgfred64 Videos -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote: the final GUI bits for a new feature are now in fgdata - the last feature addition for the 2.4 release from my part... You can download/update scenery directly from FlightGear now (main menu: Environment = Scenery). Credit for the idea goes to James - bugs are mine ;-). For the record, I don't think we are going in the right direction with this. I personally think more modules should be split out rather than integrated. For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. We could then get rid of plib and avoid the what gui toolkit to use controversy (at least for the core FG). FDM and visualization should also be split, obviously with multiple instances allowed of either. -- Csaba/Jester -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Csaba Halász wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote: the final GUI bits for a new feature are now in fgdata - the last feature addition for the 2.4 release from my part... You can download/update scenery directly from FlightGear now (main menu: Environment = Scenery). Credit for the idea goes to James - bugs are mine ;-). For the record, I don't think we are going in the right direction with this. I personally think more modules should be split out rather than integrated. For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. We could then get rid of plib and avoid the what gui toolkit to use controversy (at least for the core FG). FDM and visualization should also be split, obviously with multiple instances allowed of either. I really, really, like this idea. When was the last time CAE shipped a simulator that had a drop down menu appear in the visual system? :) All the functionality in the GUI could be provided in a stand-alone tool that talked to the simulator. You could run it on one machine or on a dedicated machine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.-- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
talked to the simulator. You could run it on one machine or on a dedicated machine. Gah. Brain to fast for fingers! You could run it on the SAME machine..or on a dedicated machine... *facepalm* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
On Wednesday 15 June 2011 07:36:51 Csaba Halász wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote: the final GUI bits for a new feature are now in fgdata - the last feature addition for the 2.4 release from my part... You can download/update scenery directly from FlightGear now (main menu: Environment = Scenery). Credit for the idea goes to James - bugs are mine ;-). For the record, I don't think we are going in the right direction with this. I personally think more modules should be split out rather than integrated. For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. We could then get rid of plib and avoid the what gui toolkit to use controversy (at least for the core FG). FDM and visualization should also be split, obviously with multiple instances allowed of either. For the record, and for what its worth, I totally agree with Csaba here. Thanks, Ron -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
Fred -Original Message- It was not a reproach. I just committed fixes at the time I sent those messages -Fred - Vivian Meazza a écrit : Fred wrote Fred wrote Please pull latest SimGear And Flightgear too Well, I thought I had - otherwise I wouldn't have re-compiled and run it, would I? And it does compile and run - even provides error messages. Hmmm - pulled, compiles and built. But when it I try to use it I get the following errors: http://pastebin.com/3c6J4D4r I'm probably missing something obvious - any clues? This was NOT a good time to introduce a whole new idea, just before a release. And I can't see any real advantage over Fred's implementation in FGRun, which I have used for years. In any case, you have to decide a priori to use Terrasync - you need to specify the terrasync scenery directory This is more or less consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view - I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. Vivian -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in terrasync
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:07:21 -0600, Ron wrote in message 201106150807.21230.w...@jentronics.com: On Wednesday 15 June 2011 07:36:51 Csaba Halász wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM, ThorstenB bre...@gmail.com wrote: the final GUI bits for a new feature are now in fgdata - the last feature addition for the 2.4 release from my part... You can download/update scenery directly from FlightGear now (main menu: Environment = Scenery). Credit for the idea goes to James - bugs are mine ;-). For the record, I don't think we are going in the right direction with this. I personally think more modules should be split out rather than integrated. For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. We could then get rid of plib and avoid the what gui toolkit to use controversy (at least for the core FG). FDM and visualization should also be split, obviously with multiple instances allowed of either. For the record, and for what its worth, I totally agree with Csaba here. Thanks, Ron ..splitting the eye candy from the FDMs, screen shot server, networking etc so each item can run in its own thread, yeah, my vote too for whatever it's worth, Linus blamed his 3.0.0 kernel numbering on his own desire to play alpha male. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] FGx for Win/Debian/OSX now
Hi all On http:// gitorious.org/fgx I tagged now a FGx version 2.3.0pre as a preview which (should) work for Debian, Windows and OSX. FGx is a small FlightGear-qt-gui-launcher project. For OSX it is a bit more (because it is a app bundle with built-in OSG libs and all FlightGear binaries). Every feedback and enhancement requests are welcome. Cheers, Yves -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Vivian Meazza wrote: This was NOT a good time to introduce a whole new idea, just before a release. http://wiki.flightgear.org/Release_Plan#Detailed_Time_Schedule June 17th is declared as being the feature freeze day. Thus, as long as they don't commit a pile of crap to the repository, why should people refrain from adding new features during the regular development cycle ? [...] And I can't see any real advantage over Fred's implementation in FGRun, which I have used for years. Some people _do_ see a real advantage. [...] In any case, you have to decide a priori to use Terrasync - you need to specify the terrasync scenery directory Indeed. I suspect that clever users of this feature are going to hardwire the TerraSync scenery directory via some command line alias, preferences file, ~/.fgfsrc or whatever, like they do for other custom preferences. It's up to you to do the same. This is more or less consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view - I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. This is not consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view. If you read carefully, then you'll realize that these three guys have primarily expressed their opinion on wether to have the GUI inside the visual system or not. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Martin Spott wrote: This is not consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view. If you read carefully, then you'll realize that these three guys have primarily expressed their opinion on wether to have the GUI inside the visual system or not. Precisely. I was offering my support for folding _all_ the GUI features into a completely stand-alone application. This is actually an area that I'd be happy to contribute to as long as people don't mind my excrible C++ code. (you could make me a happy man if I could write it in Lazarus. :D ) There's no reason the management application couldn't run on the same computer as the simulator itself. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] use-custom-scenery-data
Ahoy, you'll find the verified .parking.xml files for the five said airports here: http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KHAF.groundnet.xml http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KHWD.groundnet.xml http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KOAK.groundnet.xml http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KSFO.groundnet.xml http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KSJC.groundnet.xml What I did: Opened the airports from apt.dat.gz of fgdata (recent git version) into a recent version of TaxiDraw (mapserver/git). Imported the ground net from the same fgdata, Scenery/Airports directories, and then used the tool to verify it. At each airport I had to mark some nodes which were placed on runways but not marked as such. I marked all of them even those that were on the runway but beyond the threshold, see KHAF[1] as an example. What I didn't: Verifying anything else such as parking positions and radio frequencies, just because I don't have a reference for them. Hopefully this was how it was meant to be. ;-) At least parking positions were recognised, besides KSFO I didn't get any AI aircraft, though. At KSFO the planes weren't stacked anymore. The network at KSFO is a total mess. There are routes where there is no taxiway at all and some of the routes are not well aligned with the underlying taxiway[2]. Besides some little experience with groundnet I have no clue about the ai-system. I might have a closer look at it in the upcoming days, though. Greetings Alex [1] http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KHAF_Taxidraw.jpg [2] http://fgfs.beggabaur.de/daten/KSFO.parking.jpg Thu, 9 Jun 2011 11:41:41 +0200 Durk Talsma durkt...@gmail.com: Hi Alex, On 09 Jun 2011, at 11:21, Alex B. wrote: Basically, verifying the files would entail loading them into a recent version of taxidraw, selecting the verify groundnetwork option and correcting any errors indicated. Then they can be resaved. If you decide to do this, please ensure to send a copy to the updated files to me, so I can upload them to the terrasync repository. Cheers, durk -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote: Vivian Meazza wrote: [...] And I can't see any real advantage over Fred's implementation in FGRun, which I have used for years. Some people _do_ see a real advantage. This is more or less consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view - I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. This is not consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view. If you read carefully, then you'll realize that these three guys have primarily expressed their opinion on wether to have the GUI inside the visual system or not. It is pretty consistent with mine, actually. For example, if you have 2 separate scenery consumers it would make sense if they both sent requests to the same terrasync instance. If both included their own terrasync copy, who knows what confusion might result (double download, svn lock, etc.). Another scenario could be if the scenery data resided on a separate machine - it would make sense to run a terrasync daemon there and not embedded in FG. My setup is an example for both cases, because I have my scenery data on an NFS share that my laptop and my desktop use. Finally, there could be other programs that need scenery data, would you embed terrasync in each one? I view this as bad design. -- Csaba/Jester -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Manager...
In thinking about it a bit and being reminded of the existing HLA interface that FlightGear has, I'm leaning toward proposing something built with Python and the PyQT4 GUI library. Both components are cross-platform and there is a Python binding for the CERTI HLA library (PyHLA). The idea here is to create a stand-alone application that replaces all the built-in GUI functionality and communicates with FlightGear via the HLA interface. When the manager application meets that goal, the existing GUI can be either removed completely or simply unbound at compile time so it's not available. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Csaba Halász wrote: For example, if you have 2 separate scenery consumers it would make sense if they both sent requests to the same terrasync instance. If both included their own terrasync copy, who knows what confusion might result (double download, svn lock, etc.). Nobody forces you to run TerraSync from within FlightGear. But now you're having the choice to do the one _or_ the other, whichever meets your needs. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Csaba Halász wrote: Finally, there could be other programs that need scenery data, would you embed terrasync in each one? I view this as bad design. By having a closer look at Thorsten's patches you'd realize that his primary work was to turn the standalone program with hard-coded host- and pathnames into a neatly configurable library. The interface between this lib and FlightGear is pretty slim, it doesn't add much overhead and you're free not to use it. BTW, while I'm very much in favour of having FlightGear's various subsystems split into distinct parts, I think the bad design claim coming from you is pretty weak. Where was your voice when the Local Weather subsystem was added ? There could be other programs that need the same local weather, let's say multiple viewer instances on the same FlightGear scenario. Adding another 'wrapper' around libsgtsync, let's say a configurable HLA interface, and removing the current one from FlightGear is extremely cheap compared to making local weather multi-viewer compatible. Just a random example, think about it Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] use-custom-scenery-data
Hi Alex, Alex B. wrote: Durk wrote[1]: [...]and the files that are still called parking are the ones that I still need to rename / improve / verify. There are still files called parking in the base package. Indeed. FlightGear, as far as I understand, should be capable of reading both formats (Durk hopefully will correct me if I'm wrong), Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:57 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote: Csaba Halász wrote: Finally, there could be other programs that need scenery data, would you embed terrasync in each one? I view this as bad design. By having a closer look at Thorsten's patches you'd realize that his primary work was to turn the standalone program with hard-coded host- and pathnames into a neatly configurable library. The interface between this lib and FlightGear is pretty slim, it doesn't add much overhead and you're free not to use it. I am not arguing to remove this, I am just saying I don't like the general tendency. Obviously removing stuff that has already been coded (and is at least marginally useful) is an entirely different thing than deciding to not do something in advance. I must have missed the mail thread where this modification was proposed and discussed. BTW, while I'm very much in favour of having FlightGear's various subsystems split into distinct parts, I think the bad design claim coming from you is pretty weak. Where was your voice when the Local Weather subsystem was added ? There could be other programs that need the same local weather, let's say multiple viewer instances on the same FlightGear scenario. That was a new system that happened to be born in FG, not an already well established standalone program that we suddenly integrated. In any case, missing one opportunity to spot trouble doesn't mean I have to give up my voice forever (and also doesn't invalidate any arguments). Adding another 'wrapper' around libsgtsync, let's say a configurable HLA interface, and removing the current one from FlightGear is extremely cheap compared to making local weather multi-viewer compatible. Just a random example, think about it Implementation difficulties don't really concern theoretical design, but of course certain tradeoffs might have to be made in practice. -- Csaba/Jester -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Martin Spott wrote -Original Message- From: [mailto:martin.sp...@mgras.net] Sent: 15 June 2011 18:36 To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in Vivian Meazza wrote: This was NOT a good time to introduce a whole new idea, just before a release. http://wiki.flightgear.org/Release_Plan#Detailed_Time_Schedule June 17th is declared as being the feature freeze day. Thus, as long as they don't commit a pile of crap to the repository, why should people refrain from adding new features during the regular development cycle ? [...] And I can't see any real advantage over Fred's implementation in FGRun, which I have used for years. Some people _do_ see a real advantage. And all I said was that I don't. Let others speak for themselves. [...] In any case, you have to decide a priori to use Terrasync - you need to specify the terrasync scenery directory Indeed. I suspect that clever users of this feature are going to hardwire the TerraSync scenery directory via some command line alias, preferences file, ~/.fgfsrc or whatever, like they do for other custom preferences. It's up to you to do the same. And less clever users, which is most of the people out there, won't. I include myself in that category, since I have failed to make it work so far. I sometimes wonder if we really expect the average user to poke around in preferences.xml? But then, we have FGRun that does most of that for us. This is more or less consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view - I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. This is not consistent with Gene's, Csaba's and Ron's view. If you read carefully, then you'll realize that these three guys have primarily expressed their opinion on wether to have the GUI inside the visual system or not. This is indeed more or less consistent with those opinions. Csaba says: For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. Gene says: All the functionality in the GUI could be provided in a stand-alone tool that talked to the simulator. Ron says that he supports Csaba. I said: I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. How is my view inconsistent? Vivian -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Vivian Meazza wrote: This is indeed more or less consistent with those opinions. Csaba says: For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. Gene says: All the functionality in the GUI could be provided in a stand-alone tool that talked to the simulator. Ron says that he supports Csaba. I said: I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. How is my view inconsistent? The one wrench in the works is aircraft (and their systems) that add entries to the GUI menu items... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Gene On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Vivian Meazza wrote: This is indeed more or less consistent with those opinions. Csaba says: For example, all the GUI stuff should be thrown out and left to a launcher/control console application. Gene says: All the functionality in the GUI could be provided in a stand-alone tool that talked to the simulator. Ron says that he supports Csaba. I said: I'm happy to set this all up, and more, in a separate GUI. How is my view inconsistent? The one wrench in the works is aircraft (and their systems) that add entries to the GUI menu items... If you can generate a better way, or even an alternate way - I'll look at it. Until then you're stuck with it. Vivian -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Csaba Halász wrote: On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:57 PM, Martin Spott martin.sp...@mgras.net wrote: Csaba Halász wrote: Finally, there could be other programs that need scenery data, would you embed terrasync in each one? I view this as bad design. By having a closer look at Thorsten's patches you'd realize that his primary work was to turn the standalone program with hard-coded host- and pathnames into a neatly configurable library. The interface between this lib and FlightGear is pretty slim, it doesn't add much overhead and you're free not to use it. I am not arguing to remove this, I am just saying I don't like the general tendency. That's ok with me. Nevertheless declaring Thorsten's approach as bad design sounds extremely onesided to me. First of all, Thorsten put the hard-wired TerraSync code into a configurable, pretty versatile library. I wonder how you'd declare this particular step as bad design. Secondly he interfaced this lib into FlightGear, which is probably not the incarnation of good design (I definitely agree with you on this one), but it a) doesn't do much harm, b) defaults to off c) is easy to remove when the time has come, d) adds noticeable convenience for guesstimated 90 % of the userbase and e) see blow. Implementation difficulties don't really concern theoretical design, but of course certain tradeoffs might have to be made in practice. Since the history of FlightGear development is plastered with tradeoffs in order to serve this projects unique flavour of 'pragmatism', I think that Thorsten's move is also e) pretty much conformant with the FlightGear project's traditional way of doing things :-)) Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Vivian Meazza wrote: The one wrench in the works is aircraft (and their systems) that add entries to the GUI menu items... If you can generate a better way, or even an alternate way - I'll look at it. Until then you're stuck with it. I have the option of being able to just punt and keep using FSX. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On 15.06.2011 22:57, Martin Spott wrote: By having a closer look at Thorsten's patches you'd realize that his primary work was to turn the standalone program with hard-coded host- and pathnames into a neatly configurable library. The interface between this lib and FlightGear is pretty slim, it doesn't add much overhead and you're free not to use it. Thanks Martin. Another thing to add here: what I actually did was dividing existing terrasync sources into two parts: the library which holds all the actual SVN code, and another part that parses command-line arguments, processes UDP messages and runs as a stand-alone utility. I actually tested the new library using the (remains) of terrasync(.exe) stand-alone utility - but decided not to push any changes to terrasync itself. Not now at least. And I'm pretty aware of the HLA approaches - we've discussed that for long at LinuxTag (surprise, Mathias was there). I'm absolutely in favour of splitting things up - Mathias and Martin know this from LT. Yet, I did not see any contradiction with integrating terrasync. I would like more subsystems being converted into separate libraries and being capable of running them outside FlightGear (which, I agree, is great for any advanced user - especially those with CAE-like setups), but still have the option to also run the same subsystems all inside a single FG (which does have advantages for other kinds of users). With a proper and flexible interface (HLA could be the solution here) both is possible. When we have that standard interface installed, we can use the new library with it (while the left-over bits of terrasync(.exe)'s command-line/UDP code might die and be replaced by some generic loader). On 15.06.2011 23:30, Vivian Meazza wrote: And less clever users, which is most of the people out there, won't. I include myself in that category, since I have failed to make it work so far. I sometimes wonder if we really expect the average user to poke around in preferences.xml? But then, we have FGRun that does most of that for us. There should be no need to edit anything in preferences.xml. You should be able to enter the directory in the GUI (yes, I know, no directory dialog). Or you could also provide it via a new command-line option (--terrasync-dir). And it's preserved across sessions. So you only need to provide/edit it once. I had responded to your email yesterday in private, hinting that you probably somehow managed an incomplete fgdata pull (which you later confirmed). Maybe something is still broken - maybe with my code or still on your system. Or maybe I forgot to push something. So, I am really sorry, Vivian, that you were still unable to make the system work for you - on day 2 (though it seems people only started trying to use it _today_). But this and other posts today show our general FG mailing list tendency: being negative. It's the almost natural response to any change. Oh crap! Doesn't work! Don't like it... I've spent _loads_ of time into FG in recent months. I have worked the bug tracker almost daily. I have fixed countless bugs other people have introduced - _some_ even hidden in absolutely crappy code (so much on the design issue). I have searched and fixed memory leaks and investigated performance issues. I've fixed loads of issues affecting systems that I personally never use. So, if anything wasn't working with my _own_ addition now - only in GIT for two days, remember - I think it should've been more than obvious that I'd be absolutely willing to explain/test/resolve things - and help anyone who was really interested. And to make it work as expected: to provide an easier solution in accessing scenery (read the forums, if you want to know how users do get along with existing terrasync). But that's not how FG works. It's normal that any slight malfunction is immediately criticized as hell. No attempts in being positive, trying to encourage / motivate other people in improving their work - and to keep them working on FG. When something isn't working, start complaining and being negative. Just look at this list's recent history. So, you're all hoping for a better FG. A large redesign, so we can make use of multi-core systems, can even distribute parts across multiple machines. Can separate the GUI. Get Nasal outside the main simulation loop. Well, so do I. But I'm becoming more and more convinced, that this indeed is _not_ going to happen. No, not because of that new library and such tendencies (while in fact that library is much better prepared to be driven by HLA or something similar than most other parts). No, we're very likely to not get any of this since we're absolutely unable to motivate - or at least keep people motivated on working on our project. That's a major issue we have. Everyone who spends time is welcomed by negative comments - and surprisingly many leave. And I'm sorry to say, after reading emails like
[Flightgear-devel] Dual-licensing question
Stupid question about dual-licensing: Can I dual-license an aircraft under both GPL2 and CC-BY (no -SA or -NC), and still have it placed into fgdata? -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
Interesting ideas , i personally like the fact that terrasync can be enabled from the menu since i always run it from a separate terminal anyway but did i hear the words 'add it to a launcher ??? 'shudder' ok , iv'e been a linux user too long ;) -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Heads up: scenery download / built-in
On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, ThorstenB wrote: absolutely unable to motivate - or at least keep people motivated on working on our project. That's a major issue we have. Everyone who spends time is welcomed by negative comments - and surprisingly many leave. And I'm sorry to say, after reading emails like the above, I do have difficulties in keeping myself motivated. That's completely understandable. The bickering does get a bit old and I'm just as guilty as others in my participation in it. :( FlightGear has been around as a going project since 1997. I've hung around the edges of the project this whole time, some times more active than others. I've not contributed a lot of code, but I've tried to push in the right spots periodically. I suspect if I get within arms' reach of Curt, I'm a cooked geek. :) FlightGear has some of the best systems simulation interfaces I've seen. It's easy to use and frankly, on par with what FSX/ESP/Prepar3d offers in terms of ability. The flight modeling is right up there as well - JSBSim has a great tendency to wipe the floor with the blood-encrusted remains of what FSX calls a flight model. One thing that really lacks is the scene generator. I'm not really interested in why it's like that, but it is something that should be addressed. I'm absolutely not going to point fingers - frankly, I'm not qualified and it wouldn't really solve anything. What needs to happen is a post mortem of it. Outstanding issues need to be identified, they need to be triaged and they need to be addressed. These things need to be committed to paper (e or otherwise) before any code is written in order to prevent any ugly surprises down the road. FlightGear is a huge, complex project and has no kind of real project management at all. If that is not addressed, the mad rush in generally the same direction will eventually lead to the end of FlightGear. Be it a fork or just developer apathy, it's going to end. I'll put my hat in the ring to take over this duty - I figure I've annoyed just about every developer on the list, which everyone knows is the hallmark of a good manager. :) However, if it's not me, it MUST be someone. We need to be organized and we need it badly. The best way to get this herd of cats moving is to stuff 'em all in a long narrow hallway with a really angry dog on the end you don't want them moving towards. :) Woof. :) It's your call guys. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Dual-licensing question
As far as I know only the stronger matters. So it simply doesn't matter if you include another licence as the GPL always wins. As useless as copyright etc. --- On Thu, 6/16/11, Ryan M tpbspamm...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ryan M tpbspamm...@gmail.com Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Dual-licensing question To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Thursday, June 16, 2011, 3:39 AM Stupid question about dual-licensing: Can I dual-license an aircraft under both GPL2 and CC-BY (no -SA or -NC), and still have it placed into fgdata? -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- EditLive Enterprise is the world's most technically advanced content authoring tool. Experience the power of Track Changes, Inline Image Editing and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking. http://p.sf.net/sfu/ephox-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
