Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
Hi John, I don't want to do Ian something wrong. That's how I remember our discussion. If of importance, let's chrosscheck with him. Cheers, Dominikus 2010/5/10 John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com I can't seem to find the paper where VPRI references it, but somewhere I think they reference Henry Baker's 1993 paper The Forth Shall Be First [1]. I think Ian or Alex referenced this, which is sort of weird considering Dominikus's S3 Potsdam Germany anecdote that Ian said he didn't have a deep, visceral feel for stack langauges like Forth and Factor. [1] See: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3227 for discussion of this paper on LtU. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Max OrHai max.or...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all. I'm an undergraduate student (formerly CS, now math) and I've been reading this list since the beginning of the STEPS project: this is one of the most promising things I'm aware of going on in computing right now. (I'm a big fan of Haskell's rising popularity, although it's more of a case of gradual improvement, building on the traditions of Lisp and ML etc..) Still, I'm puzzled how I've never seen anyone here mention the other famously compact, dynamic, self-contained system: Forth. There's been a recent resurgence of interest in stack languages, mostly around Slava Pestov's Factor (http://factorcode.org), which seems to me to share many themes with the STEPS/FoNC work, although it's certainly more pragmatic in orientation and less earth-shaking. Does anyone here have any experience with Forth or Factor that they'd care to comment on? Here's a Google Tech Talks video of Pestov introducing Factor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0QlhYlS8g - Max OrHai ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
correction, Takashi Yamamiyacited that paper in http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007008_steps.pdf On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Dominikus Herzberg herzb...@hs-heilbronn.de wrote: Hi John, I don't want to do Ian something wrong. That's how I remember our discussion. If of importance, let's chrosscheck with him. Cheers, Dominikus 2010/5/10 John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com I can't seem to find the paper where VPRI references it, but somewhere I think they reference Henry Baker's 1993 paper The Forth Shall Be First [1]. I think Ian or Alex referenced this, which is sort of weird considering Dominikus's S3 Potsdam Germany anecdote that Ian said he didn't have a deep, visceral feel for stack langauges like Forth and Factor. [1] See: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3227 for discussion of this paper on LtU. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Max OrHai max.or...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all. I'm an undergraduate student (formerly CS, now math) and I've been reading this list since the beginning of the STEPS project: this is one of the most promising things I'm aware of going on in computing right now. (I'm a big fan of Haskell's rising popularity, although it's more of a case of gradual improvement, building on the traditions of Lisp and ML etc..) Still, I'm puzzled how I've never seen anyone here mention the other famously compact, dynamic, self-contained system: Forth. There's been a recent resurgence of interest in stack languages, mostly around Slava Pestov's Factor (http://factorcode.org), which seems to me to share many themes with the STEPS/FoNC work, although it's certainly more pragmatic in orientation and less earth-shaking. Does anyone here have any experience with Forth or Factor that they'd care to comment on? Here's a Google Tech Talks video of Pestov introducing Factor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0QlhYlS8g - Max OrHai ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
Yes, I'm very interested in the theory part of stack language, especially functional ones like Joy and Cat are fun. I even wrote them in Squeak and Javascript. You can play with it at http://www.cat-language.com/interpreter.html Cheers, - Takashi On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:23 AM, John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com wrote: correction, Takashi Yamamiyacited that paper in http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007008_steps.pdf On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Dominikus Herzberg herzb...@hs-heilbronn.de wrote: Hi John, I don't want to do Ian something wrong. That's how I remember our discussion. If of importance, let's chrosscheck with him. Cheers, Dominikus 2010/5/10 John Zabroski johnzabro...@gmail.com I can't seem to find the paper where VPRI references it, but somewhere I think they reference Henry Baker's 1993 paper The Forth Shall Be First [1]. I think Ian or Alex referenced this, which is sort of weird considering Dominikus's S3 Potsdam Germany anecdote that Ian said he didn't have a deep, visceral feel for stack langauges like Forth and Factor. [1] See: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3227 for discussion of this paper on LtU. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Max OrHai max.or...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all. I'm an undergraduate student (formerly CS, now math) and I've been reading this list since the beginning of the STEPS project: this is one of the most promising things I'm aware of going on in computing right now. (I'm a big fan of Haskell's rising popularity, although it's more of a case of gradual improvement, building on the traditions of Lisp and ML etc..) Still, I'm puzzled how I've never seen anyone here mention the other famously compact, dynamic, self-contained system: Forth. There's been a recent resurgence of interest in stack languages, mostly around Slava Pestov's Factor (http://factorcode.org), which seems to me to share many themes with the STEPS/FoNC work, although it's certainly more pragmatic in orientation and less earth-shaking. Does anyone here have any experience with Forth or Factor that they'd care to comment on? Here's a Google Tech Talks video of Pestov introducing Factor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0QlhYlS8g - Max OrHai ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
Hi Chris, glad to have you around! On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Chris Double chris.dou...@double.co.nz wrote: On 10/05/10 04:59, Alan Kay wrote: There are already quite a few Smalltalk elements in Factor (and the postfix language itself (for most things) could be used as the byte-code engine for a Smalltalk (looking backwards) and for more adventurous designs (looking forward)). Factor already has a Smalltalk implementation (a parser and compiler to Factor code) that Slava did a while back as a proof of concept. I'm not sure how performant or complete it is however. Dan Amelang has been moving Nile to a really nice place, and it would be relatively easy to retarget the OMeta compiler for this (particularly the JS grounded one) to ground in Factor. Is there a Nile grammar somewhere? I tried searching for it and didn't come up with anything. I see Dan's github repository but it doesn't seem to include the Ometa definition. There is a preliminary version of the Nile grammar embedded in the Ometa-based Nile-to-C compiler in my nile repository. I hope to finalize (i.e., remove the ugly warts from) the Nile syntax in the next couple weeks. In addition, Alex and I have been working on the formal semantics of Nile. In the end, I hope to have both a small, clean language and a small, clean compiler for others to play with. I hope to pique your interest! Dan ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
FYI, there are some failed experiments left over in this grammar. Like the [ exprs:xs ] syntax for tuples and the whole idea of tuple reductions (e.g., ∧[ expr:x ]). Dan On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Alessandro Warth alexwa...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Chris, Here's the nile parser that I wrote in OMeta/Squeak. Cheers, Alex On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Chris Double chris.dou...@double.co.nz wrote: On 10/05/10 04:59, Alan Kay wrote: There are already quite a few Smalltalk elements in Factor (and the postfix language itself (for most things) could be used as the byte-code engine for a Smalltalk (looking backwards) and for more adventurous designs (looking forward)). Factor already has a Smalltalk implementation (a parser and compiler to Factor code) that Slava did a while back as a proof of concept. I'm not sure how performant or complete it is however. Dan Amelang has been moving Nile to a really nice place, and it would be relatively easy to retarget the OMeta compiler for this (particularly the JS grounded one) to ground in Factor. Is there a Nile grammar somewhere? I tried searching for it and didn't come up with anything. I see Dan's github repository but it doesn't seem to include the Ometa definition. Chris. -- http://bluishcoder.co.nz ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
On 10/05/10 04:59, Alan Kay wrote: There are already quite a few Smalltalk elements in Factor (and the postfix language itself (for most things) could be used as the byte-code engine for a Smalltalk (looking backwards) and for more adventurous designs (looking forward)). Factor already has a Smalltalk implementation (a parser and compiler to Factor code) that Slava did a while back as a proof of concept. I'm not sure how performant or complete it is however. Dan Amelang has been moving Nile to a really nice place, and it would be relatively easy to retarget the OMeta compiler for this (particularly the JS grounded one) to ground in Factor. Is there a Nile grammar somewhere? I tried searching for it and didn't come up with anything. I see Dan's github repository but it doesn't seem to include the Ometa definition. Chris. -- http://bluishcoder.co.nz ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
Hi Max, Well, what properties do you think might be enormously problematic with stack languages ? Cheers, Alan From: Max OrHai max.or...@gmail.com To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org Sent: Sat, May 8, 2010 4:49:14 PM Subject: [fonc] Other interesting projects? Hello all. I'm an undergraduate student (formerly CS, now math) and I've been reading this list since the beginning of the STEPS project: this is one of the most promising things I'm aware of going on in computing right now. (I'm a big fan of Haskell's rising popularity, although it's more of a case of gradual improvement, building on the traditions of Lisp and ML etc..) Still, I'm puzzled how I've never seen anyone here mention the other famously compact, dynamic, self-contained system: Forth. There's been a recent resurgence of interest in stack languages, mostly around Slava Pestov's Factor (http://factorcode.org), which seems to me to share many themes with the STEPS/FoNC work, although it's certainly more pragmatic in orientation and less earth-shaking. Does anyone here have any experience with Forth or Factor that they'd care to comment on? Here's a Google Tech Talks video of Pestov introducing Factor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0QlhYlS8g - Max OrHai ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Other interesting projects?
Thanks for asking. I don't really have much first hand experience here (which is why I asked in the first place), and that phrase doesn't immediately ring a bell. Factor has reflection, continuations, optional typing, and meta-programming features. It supports functional, OO, and dataflow programming; it can do concurrency in a few different ways, it has excellent support for lazy lists and PEGs, and yes it even has named variables if one really wants them. The full image (including IDE and some quite featureful libraries like a relational DB, XML parser, and http server/client) is about 30K lines of code I believe, and unlike Squeak it's quite easy to trim it down for release as a standalone application if so desired. I don't use it everyday, but I haven't yet found anything enormously problematic about it. I'd be happy to admit that my perspective is probably narrower than it could be, though: I'll defer to the more experienced. - Max On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Max, Well, what properties do you think might be enormously problematic with stack languages ? Cheers, Alan -- *From:* Max OrHai max.or...@gmail.com *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org *Sent:* Sat, May 8, 2010 4:49:14 PM *Subject:* [fonc] Other interesting projects? Hello all. I'm an undergraduate student (formerly CS, now math) and I've been reading this list since the beginning of the STEPS project: this is one of the most promising things I'm aware of going on in computing right now. (I'm a big fan of Haskell's rising popularity, although it's more of a case of gradual improvement, building on the traditions of Lisp and ML etc..) Still, I'm puzzled how I've never seen anyone here mention the other famously compact, dynamic, self-contained system: Forth. There's been a recent resurgence of interest in stack languages, mostly around Slava Pestov's Factor (http://factorcode.org), which seems to me to share many themes with the STEPS/FoNC work, although it's certainly more pragmatic in orientation and less earth-shaking. Does anyone here have any experience with Forth or Factor that they'd care to comment on? Here's a Google Tech Talks video of Pestov introducing Factor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0QlhYlS8g - Max OrHai ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
