OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Indeed, yes.

Adobe have steadily reduced the value of their products in favour of increasing 
marketing expenditure (e.g. the "standardised" UI) and PR, and feature bloat in 
place of stability and quality software. Now, to increase value for 
stockholders and to shore up the bottom line, they need to gouge their customer 
base. It is us, the customer base, that have been filling the value void for 
too long.

Alan

On 23/05/2013, at 4:54 AM,   
wrote:

> 2013-05-22-03T16:55Z
> 
> Mike Wickham wrote,
> 
> "You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
> providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We 
> undoubtedly save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine that the 
> billing for my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker forums alone 
> would be worth well more than a lifetime subscription plan to Creative Cloud."
> 
> ?Hear!  ?Hear!
> 
> Dave Stamm
> Information Engineer

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shmuel Wolfson]

If the only option is subscription, the reason people will keep paying 
is to keep their access to the software, instead of paying for upgrades 
due to improvements. This reduces Adobe's incentive to add new features 
that they normally would add in order to convince people to upgrade. The 
upside might be that instead of working on new features they could focus 
on stability, but the lack of incentive to improve sounds like it will 
hurt the user in the long run.


In all fairness, if Adobe is insisting on a guaranteed income, they 
should be willing to lower the price in order to get that guarantee. So 
the price of the subscription should be lower than the price of constant 
upgrades. I'm under the impression that the subscription is about the 
same price as constant upgrades.


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 7:35 PM, Shlomo Perets wrote:


Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for 
signing:


It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than 
aggressively force this or that option them.


Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many 
newer versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising 
and/or too expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce 
inspiring/irresistible upgrades, they want to force all to constantly 
pay for the same software…


[nothing original… I'm sure that these points and many other valid 
points were already made in the different threads in so many forums]


Shlomo Perets

MicroType, http:// microtype.com http://%20microtype.com

FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training  consulting * FM-to-Acrobat 
TimeSavers/Assistants


Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader)
Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, 
starting 9am PDT

https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438

-- Original message --


At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken 
Adobe's View of the Future, 
(http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares 
some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
TCS/FrameMaker could be next.


I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try 
to persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you 
feel strongly about this issue:


http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model



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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shlomo Perets]

Pricing-wise, let's not forget the Adobe's personalized experience in the
form of a different list price for different countries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-hYc_SEDqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-hYc_SEDqwt=3m09s t=3m09s  

 

Shlomo

 

-- Original message --
From: Shmuel Wolfson shmue...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 at 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Cc: Paula Stern pa...@writepoint.com


If the only option is subscription, the reason people will keep paying is to
keep their access to the software, instead of paying for upgrades due to
improvements. This reduces Adobe's incentive to add new features that they
normally would add in order to convince people to upgrade. The upside might
be that instead of working on new features they could focus on stability,
but the lack of incentive to improve sounds like it will hurt the user in
the long run.

In all fairness, if Adobe is insisting on a guaranteed income, they should
be willing to lower the price in order to get that guarantee. So the price
of the subscription should be lower than the price of constant upgrades. I'm
under the impression that the subscription is about the same price as
constant upgrades.

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133



On 21-May-13 7:35 PM, Shlomo Perets wrote:


Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for
signing:

It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively
force this or that option them.

Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software.

[nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]

Shlomo Perets

MicroType, http:// microtype.com 



FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training  consulting * FM-to-Acrobat
TimeSavers/Assistants

Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader)
Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting
9am PDT
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438

-- Original message --


At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:

http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model




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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Mike Wickham]

 I'm under the impression that the subscription is about the same 
price as constant upgrades.


Actually, it's substantially more. I looked back and the last two CS 
upgrades I bought were around $600. The product has an 18-month cycle 
between upgrades, which means an average of $400 per year-- even less 
for those who didn't upgrade every version like I did.


To subscribe to the same software is now $600 per year-- and if you quit 
paying, you can't keep using your existing software version. You are DONE.


You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We 
undoubtedly save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine 
that the billing for my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker 
forums alone would be worth well more than a lifetime subscription plan 
to Creative Cloud.


Mike Wickham



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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Dave.Stamm]

2013-05-22-03T16:55Z

Mike Wickham wrote,

You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We undoubtedly 
save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine that the billing for 
my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker forums alone would be worth 
well more than a lifetime subscription plan to Creative Cloud.

¡Hear!  ¡Hear!

Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham
Sent: 2013-05-22-Wednesday 12:35
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Richard Doll]

all Adobe users

also signed the petition . . . because (follows)

had recent issues with customer supplied images as PDF (would crash my Acrobat 
7.1).
emailed Support who said they knew of and had a fix to download, but would 
require me to delete/remove my 7.1.
asked them 3x more - all with yes response to remonal.
activation FAILED - with NO FURTHER response forthcoming.
except . . . could download trial of Acro-XI . . . and they desperately 
pushed for subscription into the cloud.
opted for purchase which does function fine . . . just each launch has 
message box of xx days remaining/ready to subscribe?

all of which reminds me of my Frame-10 install of last Sept.
and its crash on 1/1/2013 with Notice . . . You have EXPIRED.
OPS!
maybe it was just a test of code embedded as request for more $$.

beware of stuff that emanates within clouds
If in doubt . . . ask a resident of Oklahoma City.


Scrooge
Graphic Communications
sgmli...@tds.net
  - Original Message - 
  From: Shlomo Perets 
  To: framers@lists.frameusers.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:35 PM
  Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only


  Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for 
signing:

   

  It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively 
force this or that option them. 

  Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer 
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too 
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible 
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software.

   

  [nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points 
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]

   

   

  Shlomo Perets

   

  MicroType, http:// microtype.com 

  FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training  consulting * FM-to-Acrobat 
TimeSavers/Assistants

   

  Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader) 
  Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting 
9am PDT
  https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438

   

   

   

   

  -- Original message --




  At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

  Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's 
View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

  I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel strongly 
about this issue:

  
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

   



--


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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Indeed, yes.

Adobe have steadily reduced the value of their products in favour of increasing 
marketing expenditure (e.g. the standardised UI) and PR, and feature bloat in 
place of stability and quality software. Now, to increase value for 
stockholders and to shore up the bottom line, they need to gouge their customer 
base. It is us, the customer base, that have been filling the value void for 
too long.

Alan

On 23/05/2013, at 4:54 AM, dave.st...@gdc4s.com dave.st...@gdc4s.com wrote:

 2013-05-22-03T16:55Z
 
 Mike Wickham wrote,
 
 You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
 providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We 
 undoubtedly save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine that the 
 billing for my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker forums alone 
 would be worth well more than a lifetime subscription plan to Creative Cloud.
 
 ¡Hear!  ¡Hear!
 
 Dave Stamm
 Information Engineer

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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Bethany Lee]

Cool! Signed!
Thanks for sharing.

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:10 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
 At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

 Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's 
 View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
 makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment 
 succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
 I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
 persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel 
 strongly about this issue:

 http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model


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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

I don't see why Adobe should care about a petition if subscription
revenues aren't lower than expected.

You don't like it, don't subscribe. They'll get the message.
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Done and FB'd.

Alan

On 22/05/13 1:09 AM, Shmuel Wolfson wrote:
> Yes, please sign and pass it on:
> http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model
>
>
> Regards,
> Shmuel Wolfson
> Technical Writer
> 052-763-7133
>

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shmuel Wolfson]

If the only option is subscription, the reason people will keep paying 
is to keep their access to the software, instead of paying for upgrades 
due to improvements. This reduces Adobe's incentive to add new features 
that they normally would add in order to convince people to upgrade. The 
upside might be that instead of working on new features they could focus 
on stability, but the lack of incentive to improve sounds like it will 
hurt the user in the long run.

In all fairness, if Adobe is insisting on a guaranteed income, they 
should be willing to lower the price in order to get that guarantee. So 
the price of the subscription should be lower than the price of constant 
upgrades. I'm under the impression that the subscription is about the 
same price as constant upgrades.

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 7:35 PM, Shlomo Perets wrote:
>
> Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for 
> signing:
>
> "It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than 
> aggressively force this or that option them.
>
> Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many 
> newer versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising 
> and/or too expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce 
> inspiring/irresistible upgrades, they want to force all to constantly 
> pay for the same software?"
>
> [nothing original? I'm sure that these points and many other valid 
> points were already made in the different threads in so many forums]
>
> Shlomo Perets
>
> MicroType, http:// microtype.com 
>
> FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training & consulting * FM-to-Acrobat 
> TimeSavers/Assistants
>
> Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader)
> Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, 
> starting 9am PDT
> https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438
>
> -- Original message --
>
>
> At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:
>
> Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken 
> Adobe's View of the Future, 
> (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares 
> some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
> TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
>
> I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try 
> to persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you 
> feel strongly about this issue:
>
> 
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as shmuelw1 at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/shmuelw1%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shlomo Perets]

Pricing-wise, let's not forget the Adobe's "personalized experience" in the
form of a different list price for different countries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-hYc_SEDqw
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-hYc_SEDqw=3m09s> =3m09s  



Shlomo



-- Original message --
From: Shmuel Wolfson <shmue...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, May 22, 2013 at 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Cc: Paula Stern 


If the only option is subscription, the reason people will keep paying is to
keep their access to the software, instead of paying for upgrades due to
improvements. This reduces Adobe's incentive to add new features that they
normally would add in order to convince people to upgrade. The upside might
be that instead of working on new features they could focus on stability,
but the lack of incentive to improve sounds like it will hurt the user in
the long run.

In all fairness, if Adobe is insisting on a guaranteed income, they should
be willing to lower the price in order to get that guarantee. So the price
of the subscription should be lower than the price of constant upgrades. I'm
under the impression that the subscription is about the same price as
constant upgrades.

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133



On 21-May-13 7:35 PM, Shlomo Perets wrote:


Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for
signing:

"It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively
force this or that option them.

Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software."

[nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]

Shlomo Perets

MicroType, http:// microtype.com 



FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training & consulting * FM-to-Acrobat
TimeSavers/Assistants

Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader)
Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting
9am PDT
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438

-- Original message --


At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (<http://tidbits.com/e/13765>http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:

<http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model>




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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Mike Wickham]

 > I'm under the impression that the subscription is about the same 
price as constant upgrades.

Actually, it's substantially more. I looked back and the last two CS 
upgrades I bought were around $600. The product has an 18-month cycle 
between upgrades, which means an average of $400 per year-- even less 
for those who didn't upgrade every version like I did.

To subscribe to the same software is now $600 per year-- and if you quit 
paying, you can't keep using your existing software version. You are DONE.

You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We 
undoubtedly save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine 
that the billing for my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker 
forums alone would be worth well more than a lifetime subscription plan 
to Creative Cloud.

Mike Wickham

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[dave.st...@gdc4s.com]

2013-05-22-03T16:55Z

Mike Wickham wrote,

"You know, we users ought to start billing Adobe for the hours we spend 
providing free customer support for them in the various forums. We undoubtedly 
save the company millions of dollars per year. I imagine that the billing for 
my posts on this listserve and the Adobe FrameMaker forums alone would be worth 
well more than a lifetime subscription plan to Creative Cloud."

?Hear!  ?Hear!

Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Mike Wickham
Sent: 2013-05-22-Wednesday 12:35
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Richard Doll]

all Adobe users

also signed the petition . . . because (follows)

had recent issues with customer supplied images as PDF (would crash my Acrobat 
7.1).
emailed "Support" who said "they knew of and had a fix to download, but would 
require me to delete/remove my 7.1.
asked them 3x more - all with "yes" response to remonal.
"activation" FAILED - with NO FURTHER response forthcoming.
except . . . could download "trial" of Acro-XI . . . and they desperately 
pushed for "subscription into the cloud".
opted for "purchase" which does function fine . . . just each launch has 
message box of "xx days remaining/ready to subscribe?"

all of which reminds me of my Frame-10 install of last Sept.
and its crash on 1/1/2013 with Notice . . . You have EXPIRED.
OPS!
maybe it was just a test of code embedded as request for more $$.

beware of stuff that emanates within clouds
If in doubt . . . ask a resident of Oklahoma City.


Scrooge
Graphic Communications
sgmlindy at tds.net
  - Original Message - 
  From: Shlomo Perets 
  To: framers at lists.frameusers.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:35 PM
  Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only


  Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for 
signing:



  "It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively 
force this or that option them. 

  Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer 
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too 
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible 
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software."



  [nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points 
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]





  Shlomo Perets



  MicroType, http:// microtype.com 

  FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training & consulting * FM-to-Acrobat 
TimeSavers/Assistants



  Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader) 
  Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting 
9am PDT
  https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438









  -- Original message --




  At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

  Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's 
View of the Future, (<http://tidbits.com/e/13765>http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

  I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel strongly 
about this issue:

  
<http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model>





--


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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's View 
of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel strongly 
about this issue:

http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:


Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's View of the 
Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares 
some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker 
could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel strongly 
about this issue:

http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model



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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shlomo Perets]

Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for
signing:

 

It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively
force this or that option them. 

Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software.

 

[nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]

 

 

Shlomo Perets

 

MicroType, http:// microtype.com http://%20microtype.com  

FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training  consulting * FM-to-Acrobat
TimeSavers/Assistants

 

Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader) 
Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting
9am PDT
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438

 

 

 

 

-- Original message --




At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:

http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

 

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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Carol J. Elkins]

Here's mine:

I want the availability of my software to be 
independent of my ability to pay for it. If I'm 
having a cash-flow problem, the last thing I need 
is to lose access to the tools that are required 
to generate my income. I want it to be MY 
decision as to when I update my software, not 
Adobe's. I want forever access to the tools for which I purchased a license.


Carol


Just signed the petition and indicated the 
following as the reason for signing:


It is really a matter of letting users choose, 
rather than aggressively force this or that option them.
Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older 
versions because many newer versions/upgrades 
were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising 
and/or too expensive. Instead of making an 
effort to produce inspiring/irresistible 
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software…


[nothing original… I'm sure that these points 
and many other valid points were already made in 
the different threads in so many forums]



Shlomo Perets


**
Carol J. Elkins---A Written Word LLC
Making Information Understandable
Phone: 719-948-3773
mailto:celk...@awrittenword.com
http://www.awrittenword.com
***

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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Done and FB'd.

Alan

On 22/05/13 1:09 AM, Shmuel Wolfson wrote:

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model


Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133



--
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Tammy Van Boening]

Signed and with exactly the same reasons that Carol Elkins put in her email.
Very well stated.

TVB

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:10 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-man
datory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
 At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

 Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
 I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:


http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model


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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Tori Muir]

Signed, and commented.

Tori Muir
tm...@spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com


On 5/21/13 12:37 PM, Tammy Van Boening wrote:

Signed and with exactly the same reasons that Carol Elkins put in her email.
Very well stated.

TVB

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:10 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-man
datory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:


Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's

View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to

persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:



http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

>Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's View 
>of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
>makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, 
>TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel strongly 
about this issue:



-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:
>
>> Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's 
>> View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
>> makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment 
>> succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
> I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
> persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel 
> strongly about this issue:
>
> 
>

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shlomo Perets]

Just signed the petition and indicated the following as the reason for
signing:



"It is really a matter of letting users choose, rather than aggressively
force this or that option them. 

Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older versions because many newer
versions/upgrades were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising and/or too
expensive. Instead of making an effort to produce inspiring/irresistible
upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software."



[nothing original. I'm sure that these points and many other valid points
were already made in the different threads in so many forums]





Shlomo Perets



MicroType, http:// microtype.com   

FrameMaker/Acrobat/Captivate training & consulting * FM-to-Acrobat
TimeSavers/Assistants



Enable and encourage user input in PDFs (viewed with Adobe Reader) 
Half-hour webinar (free; no fluff, no hype, no nonsense), June 5, starting
9am PDT
https://www3.gotomeeting.com/register/157658438









-- Original message --




At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:





-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Carol J. Elkins]

Here's mine:

I want the availability of my software to be 
independent of my ability to pay for it. If I'm 
having a cash-flow problem, the last thing I need 
is to lose access to the tools that are required 
to generate my income. I want it to be MY 
decision as to when I update my software, not 
Adobe's. I want forever access to the tools for which I purchased a license.

Carol


>Just signed the petition and indicated the 
>following as the reason for signing:
>
>"It is really a matter of letting users choose, 
>rather than aggressively force this or that option them.
>Clearly, many Adobe users are still using older 
>versions because many newer versions/upgrades 
>were mediocre, half-baked, not too promising 
>and/or too expensive. Instead of making an 
>effort to produce inspiring/irresistible 
>upgrades, they want to force all to constantly pay for the same software
"
>
>[nothing original
 I'm sure that these points 
>and many other valid points were already made in 
>the different threads in so many forums]
>
>
>Shlomo Perets

**
Carol J. Elkins---A Written Word LLC
Making Information Understandable
Phone: 719-948-3773
mailto:celkins at awrittenword.com
http://www.awrittenword.com
***

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Tammy Van Boening]

Signed and with exactly the same reasons that Carol Elkins put in her email.
Very well stated.

TVB

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:10 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-man
datory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:
>
>> Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
View of the Future, (<http://tidbits.com/e/13765>http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
> I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
strongly about this issue:
>
>
<http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model>
>

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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Tori Muir]

Signed, and commented.

Tori Muir
tmuir at spot-on-creative.com | 650.430.8674
www.spot-on-creative.com


On 5/21/13 12:37 PM, Tammy Van Boening wrote:
> Signed and with exactly the same reasons that Carol Elkins put in her email.
> Very well stated.
>
> TVB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:10 AM
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
>
> Yes, please sign and pass it on:
> http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-man
> datory-creative-cloud-subscription-model
>
> Regards,
> Shmuel Wolfson
> Technical Writer
> 052-763-7133
>
> On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
>> At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:
>>
>>> Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's
> View of the Future, (<http://tidbits.com/e/13765>http://tidbits.com/e/13765)
> makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment
> succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
>> I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to
> persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel
> strongly about this issue:
>>
> <http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-ma
> ndatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as tammyvb at spectrumwritingllc.com.
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> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Bethany Lee]

Cool! Signed!
Thanks for sharing.

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:10 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Yes, please sign and pass it on:
http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 21-May-13 3:30 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 14:54 -0700 20/5/13, Karen Robbins wrote:
>
>> Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's 
>> View of the Future, (<http://tidbits.com/e/13765>http://tidbits.com/e/13765) 
>> makes/shares some excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment 
>> succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.
> I see from this article that there is a petition on Change.org to try to 
> persuade Adobe to abandon this sales model. Please go here if you feel 
> strongly about this issue:
>
> <http://www.change.org/petitions/adobe-systems-incorporated-eliminate-the-mandatory-creative-cloud-subscription-model>
>

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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

I don't see why Adobe should care about a petition if subscription
revenues aren't lower than expected.

You don't like it, don't subscribe. They'll get the message.

RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Karen Robbins]

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, *Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe’s
View of the Future,* (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares some
excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker
could be next.

--Karen
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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

Given their recent punting of the multi-year license maintenance program for 
FrameMaker, I think you are very right.

Z

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Karen Robbins
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 2:55 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's View 
of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares some excellent points. 
If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

--Karen
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Karen Robbins]

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, *Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe?s
View of the Future,* (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares some
excellent points. If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker
could be next.

--Karen
-- next part --
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

Given their recent punting of the multi-year license maintenance program for 
FrameMaker, I think you are very right.

Z

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Karen Robbins
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 2:55 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Adam Engst's article in TidBITs, Creative Cloud Complaints Darken Adobe's View 
of the Future, (http://tidbits.com/e/13765) makes/shares some excellent points. 
If the Creative Cloud experiment succeeds, TCS/FrameMaker could be next.

--Karen
-- next part --
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.

His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in 
the statement "I thought was worth paying for", not the fact that 
features have been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more 
added.

Alan


On 16/05/13 9:52 AM, Maxwell Hoffmann wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
> what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
> which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
> and FM11. Interesting reading.
>
> Here is the link: http://adobe.ly/PAQS1u
>
>
> ___
> Maxwell Hoffmann |  Product  Evangelist  |  Adobe  |  p. 503.336.5952  |  c. 
> 503.805.3719  |  mhoffman at adobe.com
> http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -  
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann  blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
> Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
> http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
> lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:31 PM
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
>
> Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides, not on 
> how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come up with 
> anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,   wrote:
>> The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
>> to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
> ___
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as alan at alphabyte.co.nz.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/alan%40alphabyte.co.nz
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

The subscription model probably does help them deal with piracy. In that
sense, they are urging a part of their user (but not customer) base to be
more obedient.

 

Craig

 

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:08 PM
To: Alan T Litchfield
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Forum
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

 

... What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers for its
relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were more rational
and obedient, Adobe would be better off. 

 

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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

Adobe provides a software license transfer form. Not applicable to academic
versions, however.
http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.h
tml
Craig

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson chinask...@gmail.com wrote:
 ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new version
is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell your rights:

You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software to
another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you and the
receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement,
provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users
of the Software.
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

The hell you say. The only deadline I've ever missed was the result of
my department's PCs being updated to Word 2003 without warning. There
were bugs that made it impossible to update the headers and footers in
a new features doc that had to be in Word format because marketing had
the final cut.

Why waste money on software I don't need? I bought Acrobat 8,
Photoshop 5, and Illustrator 7, and FrameMaker 6 years ago and they
still work fine. FrameMaker 8 was maybe worth the cost of upgrading,
nothing since then has been. If I'd been paying for subscriptions all
that time I'd have spent a lot more money than I did buying them
outright.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Yves Barbion yves.barb...@gmail.com wrote:
 it is definitely a
 good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
 latest version of the software
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RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Maxwell Hoffmann]

Hello Everybody,

For the record, Adobe has made no announcements about Tech Comm Suite, 
FrameMaker or RoboHelp going to subscription only. The announcements discussed 
in this thread only involve Creative Suite. The change in future distribution 
of Creative Cloud was announced at the Adobe MAX conference in Los Angeles last 
week.

At this point, anything involving changes in how FrameMaker is distributed is 
just speculation. I appreciate everyone's feedback, but plans to build a 
competitive product and business plans for a competitive product may be a bit 
premature.  ;-)

I'm glad there is always so much creative energy within this forum. Keeps 
everyone on their toes.


Maxwell Hoffmann |  Product  Evangelist  |  Adobe  |  p. 503.336.5952  |  c. 
503.805.3719  |  mhoff...@adobe.com 
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann  blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J



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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Maxwell Hoffmann]

Hi Robert,

Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
and FM11. Interesting reading.

Here is the link: http://adobe.ly/PAQS1u


___
Maxwell Hoffmann |  Product  Evangelist  |  Adobe  |  p. 503.336.5952  |  c. 
503.805.3719  |  mhoff...@adobe.com 
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann  blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:31 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides, not on 
how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come up with 
anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,  dave.st...@gdc4s.com wrote:
 The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
 to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
___
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Flare doesn't offer anything I need that I don't already have from
FrameMaker and WebWorks, and it lacks some things I find very useful,
such as WYSIWYG editing for continuous PDF preview and the ability to
save change markup to PDF for review.

And neither do the thing I'm most interested in these days, which is
exporting to Confluence 4 / 5.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Francis Novak
fno...@madcapsoftware.com wrote:
 MadCap Flare is a great replacement for FrameMaker. In fact, many of our 
 customers come from Frame. The key difference being more of a topic-based 
 approach. MadCap Flare can be used for both professional quality print and 
 online or mobile content...
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Writer]

 I appreciate everyone's feedback, but plans to build a 

 competitive product and business plans for a competitive product may be a bit 
 premature.  ;-)


I strongly disagree. I think it's been a long time coming. I want more choices. 
I want to be able to see the text in the index dialog box.

Lack of competition does not make a healthy market.

Nadine
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[David Creamer]

Not sure why you need to doubt my statement--but, let's see... 

I use on a regular basis:
Photoshop   
Lightroom
InDesign (with DPS)
InCopy (currently I purchase separately, but it will be the new ACC release)
Dreamweaver
Edge Animate/Services
Premiere Pro/Encore
Media Encoder
After Effects
And all of the TCS4 programs (FrameMaker, Acrobat, Captivate, Illustrator,
RoboHelp, Presenter)
LiveCycle Designer (not included with Acrobat anymore, but I upgraded
separately)

Others I use fairly often:
Audition
Prelude
SpeedGrade
Muse

Although I downloaded TCS4 as a direct purchase, I also subscribed to it in
order to get the latest/greatest updates to Captivate. Otherwise, the
updates were not available to me until an official update came out (whatever
it will be called: TCS4.5 or TCS5).
(Not sure if Maxwell's post was due to my post, but I never implied that
TCS4 was ONLY subscription based. It is just the subscriptions get updates
as soon as they are released and at no additional cost. I needed that for
Captivate, not Frame.)

David Creamer
IDEAS Training


Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:11:48 -0700
From: Robert Lauriston rob...@lauriston.com

What Adobe programs do you need that aren't in TCS 4?

Illustrator replaced Photoshop, which was in TCS 3.5, but there are
freeware bitmap editors that do everything I need.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:11 AM, David Creamer
ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote:
 So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found
that
 I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite
($50
 plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need.

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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.

His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in 
the statement I thought was worth paying for, not the fact that 
features have been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more 
added.


Alan


On 16/05/13 9:52 AM, Maxwell Hoffmann wrote:

Hi Robert,

Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
and FM11. Interesting reading.

Here is the link: http://adobe.ly/PAQS1u


___
Maxwell Hoffmann |  Product  Evangelist  |  Adobe  |  p. 503.336.5952  |  c. 
503.805.3719  |  mhoff...@adobe.com
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann  blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:31 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides, not on 
how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come up with 
anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,  dave.st...@gdc4s.com wrote:

The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ to 
produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.

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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

How about you doing some reading and making a to-do list of the basic
features that FrameMaker users have been requesting for years?

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. How are book-level
variables, real templates, and external stylesheets still not part of
the base product? Why, despite the extensive UI changes in FM9, do we
still have tiny fixed-sized list boxes from the 1980s?

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Maxwell Hoffmann mhoff...@adobe.com wrote:
 Hi Robert,

 Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
 what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
 which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
 and FM11. Interesting reading.
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

I don't doubt your statement, I was just curious. I didn't notice that
you do training stuff, that often requires a bigger and broader
toolkit.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 11:01 AM, David Creamer
ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote:
 Not sure why you need to doubt my statement--but, let's see...

 I use on a regular basis:
 Photoshop ...
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Or broken by FM9 and added back in as new features in later releases.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Alan T Litchfield
a...@alphabyte.co.nz wrote:
 Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.

 His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in the
 statement I thought was worth paying for, not the fact that features have
 been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more added.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Writer]

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. 

Good point.

Nadine
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Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Writer]

> I appreciate everyone's feedback, but plans to build a?

> competitive product and business plans for a competitive product may be a bit 
> premature.? ;-)


I strongly disagree. I think it's been a long time coming. I want more choices. 
I want to be able to see the text in the index dialog box.

Lack of competition does not make a healthy market.

Nadine

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[David Creamer]

Not sure why you need to doubt my statement--but, let's see... 

I use on a regular basis:
Photoshop   
Lightroom
InDesign (with DPS)
InCopy (currently I purchase separately, but it will be the new ACC release)
Dreamweaver
Edge Animate/Services
Premiere Pro/Encore
Media Encoder
After Effects
And all of the TCS4 programs (FrameMaker, Acrobat, Captivate, Illustrator,
RoboHelp, Presenter)
LiveCycle Designer (not included with Acrobat anymore, but I upgraded
separately)

Others I use fairly often:
Audition
Prelude
SpeedGrade
Muse

Although I downloaded TCS4 as a direct purchase, I also subscribed to it in
order to get the latest/greatest updates to Captivate. Otherwise, the
updates were not available to me until an official update came out (whatever
it will be called: TCS4.5 or TCS5).
(Not sure if Maxwell's post was due to my post, but I never implied that
TCS4 was ONLY subscription based. It is just the subscriptions get updates
as soon as they are released and at no additional cost. I needed that for
Captivate, not Frame.)

David Creamer
IDEAS Training


Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:11:48 -0700
From: Robert Lauriston 

>What Adobe programs do you need that aren't in TCS 4?

>Illustrator replaced Photoshop, which was in TCS 3.5, but there are
>freeware bitmap editors that do everything I need.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:11 AM, David Creamer
 wrote:
>> So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found
that
>> I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite
($50
>> plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Adobe already controls piracy using activation. The only difference
with the subscription model is that your license has a timeout.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> The subscription model probably does help them deal with piracy. In that
> sense, they are urging a part of their user (but not customer) base to be
> more obedient.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

How about you doing some reading and making a to-do list of the basic
features that FrameMaker users have been requesting for years?

An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
plug-ins that people are willing to pay for. How are book-level
variables, real templates, and external stylesheets still not part of
the base product? Why, despite the extensive UI changes in FM9, do we
still have tiny fixed-sized list boxes from the 1980s?

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Maxwell Hoffmann  wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
> what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
> which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
> and FM11. Interesting reading.

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

I don't doubt your statement, I was just curious. I didn't notice that
you do training stuff, that often requires a bigger and broader
toolkit.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 11:01 AM, David Creamer
 wrote:
> Not sure why you need to doubt my statement--but, let's see...
>
> I use on a regular basis:
> Photoshop ...

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Or broken by FM9 and added back in as "new features" in later releases.

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Alan T Litchfield
 wrote:
> Maxwell, I think you are missing the point.
>
> His comment is in reference to value (however that might be measured) in the
> statement "I thought was worth paying for", not the fact that features have
> been added and added and added, then reshuffled and more added.

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Writer]

>An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the
>plug-ins that people are willing to pay for.?

Good point.

Nadine

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)]

> >An easy way to find out what many of those are is to look at the 
> >plug-ins that people are willing to pay for.
>
> Good point.
>
> Nadine

Indeed a very good point!

For me, book level variables are vital for my specifications  ... that is what 
BookVars from Leximation provides and has yet to be equaled in anything Adobe 
FrameMaker has.

Z

Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

MadCap's original impetus was to create a successor to RoboHelp, which
at the time looked like it had been abandoned by its then-owner
Macromedia.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Gillian Flato
gillian.fl...@nexenta.com wrote:
 Isn't that what MadCap tried to do?

 -Original Message-
 From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
 Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:33 AM
 To: craig...@hotmail.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

 I say we start a new company and create a competitor to FrameMaker! Who's 
 with me? Anyone? Anyone?
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RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[David Creamer]

So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found that
I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite ($50
plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need. Unfortunately, there
are two programs that overlap (AI and Acrobat). I wish Adobe would come out
with an Uuber Suite Subscription with a discounted price, of course!

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
http://www.ideastraining.com
Adobe Authorized Instructor  Certified Expert since 1995

___


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http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Yves Barbion]

Good idea, David, a Creative Technical Communication Suite or better
still, custom suites at a discount, for example: InDesign + FrameMaker +
Illustrator + Photoshop + Acrobat (I don't need Captivate, Dreamweaver
etc.).

I also hope that the hardware (computer, hard disk space, RAM) can keep up
with the ever-increasing rate of software updates. Yes, it is definitely a
good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
latest version of the software unless, of course, if you have to buy a new
computer every two years or so.

cheers


-- 
Yves Barbion
www.scripto.nu
___


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http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

What Adobe programs do you need that aren't in TCS 4?

Illustrator replaced Photoshop, which was in TCS 3.5, but there are
freeware bitmap editors that do everything I need.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:11 AM, David Creamer
ideasli...@ideastraining.com wrote:
 So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found that
 I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite ($50
 plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need.
___


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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Liz Fraley]

This move is problematic for enterprises who exchange and archive files and
who need the ability to do version management.  (And by that I mean tool
version.)  Lots of customers are deliberately on old versions because
moving is a big deal and slow: You want to be sure that you can open old
files that contain past work well into the future. You can't assume that
they'll provide previous versions in the cloud. Archiving a VM with an old
version is easy to to; The cloud is much more difficult to archive. Plus,
any cloud vendor can decide at any time that it's not profitable to support
all the data you put there and just cease to do so.



On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Yves Barbion yves.barb...@gmail.comwrote:

 Good idea, David, a Creative Technical Communication Suite or better
 still, custom suites at a discount, for example: InDesign + FrameMaker +
 Illustrator + Photoshop + Acrobat (I don't need Captivate, Dreamweaver
 etc.).

 I also hope that the hardware (computer, hard disk space, RAM) can keep up
 with the ever-increasing rate of software updates. Yes, it is definitely a
 good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
 latest version of the software unless, of course, if you have to buy a new
 computer every two years or so.

 cheers


 --
 Yves Barbion
 www.scripto.nu

 ___


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 Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Francis Novak]

MadCap Flare is a great replacement for FrameMaker. In fact, many of our 
customers come from Frame. The key difference being more of a topic-based 
approach. MadCap Flare can be used for both professional quality print and 
online or mobile content...and you don't have to rent our software (we do offer 
subscription pricing if you want).

You can find more information, comparison charts and case studies from previous 
Frame users using the links below:

http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/yourreplacement/capabilities.aspx 

http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/flarevsframemaker.aspx


-- F


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Flato
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 10:17 AM
To: Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net); Writer; craig...@hotmail.com; 
framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Isn't that what MadCap tried to do?

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain 
(syed.hos...@aeris.net)
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:06 PM
To: Writer; craig...@hotmail.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I raise my hand ... :)

Now ... who is responsible for getting funding?

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:33 AM
To: craig...@hotmail.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I say we start a new company and create a competitor to FrameMaker! Who's with 
me? Anyone? Anyone?

*crickets chirp*

=D

Nadine


- Original Message -
 From: Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Cc: 
 Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:24:36 PM
 Subject: FW: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
 only
 
T his is troubling, and so one message is buy the CS software on 
CD/DVD  while you still can. A number of my friends, most connected 
with academic  institutions, are doing that.
 
 I expect Adobe is attempting to have everyone on the same page as 
 regards these applications so that one set of help files defines the 
 current state
 of an application. This would help a lot in terms of expected outcomes 
 when using the product. However, it requires a constant state of 
 reeducation as new features are added and different ways of handling things 
 are introduced.
 Not that we don't have to deal with this already, but at least we know 
 if we do something in a given version, it is going to work in a way 
 that we already are familiar with.
 
 As for extending this the current version of the app beyond the 
 bounds of the Creative Suite, I rather doubt that Adobe will do that 
 anytime soon. If they have their finger on the pulse of their users 
 they must realized that, for instance, in the medical device industry, 
 all tools used to produce documentation must be validated. It would be 
 impossible  (and expensive!) to validate a moving target as the apps 
 were continually being improved and the former version made 
 unavailable.
 
 Craig Ede
 -Original Message-
 From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve 
 Rickaby
 Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 11:38 AM
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Subject: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
 only
 
 I have just heard a rumor that the CS Suite is going to available in 
 future only on an SaaS basis, by subscription. TCS/FrameMaker could follow?
 
 I do wonder whether the accountants that run large corporates like 
 Adobe understand how important their software is to the countless 
 thousands of freelances who have to scrape every last penny to buy it
 - but at least then they own something, not vapor that goes phut as 
 soon as you stop paying for it.
 
 For the last two decades FrameMaker, Illustrator, Acrobat and 
 Dreamweaver have been the rocks underpinning what I do. I'm far less 
 sure about the future, though.
 
 --
 Steve [somewhat aghast]
 
 
 ___
 
 
 You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca.
 
 Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.
 
 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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 .ca
 
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 http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
 
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Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

I would expect view ceasing support as something quite different than
turning off access to a license. We'll have to see how that plays out.

Craig 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harro de Jong
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:08 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Craig Ede wrote:


 Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does 
 mean that you have access to a given software package you can count on 
 (and not some changing version of it). Also, given that license, they 
 cannot revoke your ability of use the software in that state, and they 
 have certain obligations to make sure you are able to do that (i.e. they
can't simply turn of your license at their end on a whim).
 Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
 
 Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear 
 more info on this topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still
available, and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a
download for a version that doesn't need activation. 


Harro de Jong

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Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[David Creamer]

So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found that
I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite ($50
plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need. Unfortunately, there
are two programs that overlap (AI and Acrobat). I wish Adobe would come out
with an Uuber Suite Subscription with a discounted price, of course!

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
http://www.ideastraining.com
Adobe Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1995

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Yves Barbion]

Good idea, David, a "Creative Technical Communication Suite" or better
still, custom suites at a discount, for example: InDesign + FrameMaker +
Illustrator + Photoshop + Acrobat (I don't need Captivate, Dreamweaver
etc.).

I also hope that the hardware (computer, hard disk space, RAM) can keep up
with the ever-increasing rate of software updates. Yes, it is definitely a
good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
latest version of the software unless, of course, if you have to buy a new
computer every two years or so.

cheers


-- 
Yves Barbion
www.scripto.nu
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 16:57 +0200 15/5/13, Yves Barbion wrote:

>Yes, it is definitely a good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan 
>always gives you the latest version of the software unless, of course, if you 
>have to buy a new computer every two years or so.

Actually, this is not always the case, as unexpected training time and costs 
can arise, with associated disturbance to production schedules. In addition, as 
we all know, updates usually fix some bugs and introduce others.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

What Adobe programs do you need that aren't in TCS 4?

Illustrator replaced Photoshop, which was in TCS 3.5, but there are
freeware bitmap editors that do everything I need.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:11 AM, David Creamer
 wrote:
> So far, most have been talking about the Adobe Creative Cloud. I found that
> I need  to subscribe to the ACC _and_ the Technical Communication Suite ($50
> plus $70 per month US) to get all the software I need.

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Liz Fraley]

This move is problematic for enterprises who exchange and archive files and
who need the ability to do version management.  (And by that I mean tool
version.)  Lots of customers are deliberately on old versions because
moving is a big deal and slow: You want to be sure that you can open old
files that contain past work well into the future. You can't assume that
they'll provide previous versions in the cloud. Archiving a VM with an old
version is easy to to; The cloud is much more difficult to archive. Plus,
any cloud vendor can decide at any time that it's not profitable to support
all the data you put there and just cease to do so.



On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Yves Barbion wrote:

> Good idea, David, a "Creative Technical Communication Suite" or better
> still, custom suites at a discount, for example: InDesign + FrameMaker +
> Illustrator + Photoshop + Acrobat (I don't need Captivate, Dreamweaver
> etc.).
>
> I also hope that the hardware (computer, hard disk space, RAM) can keep up
> with the ever-increasing rate of software updates. Yes, it is definitely a
> good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
> latest version of the software unless, of course, if you have to buy a new
> computer every two years or so.
>
> cheers
>
>
> --
> Yves Barbion
> www.scripto.nu
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as caltonia at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/caltonia%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Francis Novak]

MadCap Flare is a great replacement for FrameMaker. In fact, many of our 
customers come from Frame. The key difference being more of a topic-based 
approach. MadCap Flare can be used for both professional quality print and 
online or mobile content...and you don't have to rent our software (we do offer 
subscription pricing if you want).

You can find more information, comparison charts and case studies from previous 
Frame users using the links below:

http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/yourreplacement/capabilities.aspx 

http://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/flarevsframemaker.aspx


-- F


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Flato
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 10:17 AM
To: Syed Zaeem Hosain (Syed.Hosain at aeris.net); Writer; craigede at 
hotmail.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Isn't that what MadCap tried to do?

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net)
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:06 PM
To: Writer; craigede at hotmail.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I raise my hand ... :)

Now ... who is responsible for getting funding?

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:33 AM
To: craigede at hotmail.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I say we start a new company and create a competitor to FrameMaker! Who's with 
me? Anyone? Anyone?

*crickets chirp*

=D

Nadine


- Original Message -
> From: Craig Ede 
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:24:36 PM
> Subject: FW: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
> only
> 
>T his is troubling, and so one message is "buy the CS software on 
>CD/DVD  while you still can." A number of my friends, most connected 
>with academic  institutions, are doing that.
> 
> I expect Adobe is attempting to have everyone on the same page as 
> regards these applications so that one set of help files defines the 
> "current state"
> of an application. This would help a lot in terms of expected outcomes 
> when using the product. However, it requires a constant state of 
> reeducation as new features are added and different ways of handling things 
> are introduced.
> Not that we don't have to deal with this already, but at least we know 
> if we do something in a given version, it is going to work in a way 
> that we already are familiar with.
> 
> As for extending this "the current version of the app" beyond the 
> bounds of the Creative Suite, I rather doubt that Adobe will do that 
> anytime soon. If they have their finger on the pulse of their users 
> they must realized that, for instance, in the medical device industry, 
> all tools used to produce documentation must be validated. It would be 
> impossible? (and expensive!) to validate a moving target as the apps 
> were continually being improved and the former version made 
> unavailable.
> 
> Craig Ede
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve 
> Rickaby
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 11:38 AM
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
> only
> 
> I have just heard a rumor that the CS Suite is going to available in 
> future only on an SaaS basis, by subscription. TCS/FrameMaker could follow?
> 
> I do wonder whether the accountants that run large corporates like 
> Adobe understand how important their software is to the countless 
> thousands of freelances who have to scrape every last penny to buy it
> - but at least then they own something, not vapor that goes phut as 
> soon as you stop paying for it.
> 
> For the last two decades FrameMaker, Illustrator, Acrobat and 
> Dreamweaver have been the rocks underpinning what I do. I'm far less 
> sure about the future, though.
> 
> --
> Steve [somewhat aghast]
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%4

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

I would expect view ceasing support as something quite different than
turning off access to a license. We'll have to see how that plays out.

Craig 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harro de Jong
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 4:08 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Craig Ede wrote:


> Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does 
> mean that you have access to a given software package you can count on 
> (and not some changing version of it). Also, given that license, they 
> cannot revoke your ability of use the software in that state, and they 
> have certain obligations to make sure you are able to do that (i.e. they
can't simply turn of your license at their end on a whim).
> Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
> 
> Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear 
> more info on this topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still
available, and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a
download for a version that doesn't need activation. 


Harro de Jong

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

The subscription model probably does help them deal with piracy. In that
sense, they are urging a part of their user (but not customer) base to be
more obedient.



Craig



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 7:08 PM
To: Alan T Litchfield
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com Forum
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only



... What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers for its
relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were more rational
and obedient, Adobe would be better off. 

 

-- next part --
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Craig Ede]

Adobe provides a software license transfer form. Not applicable to academic
versions, however.
http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/transfer-product-license.h
tml
Craig

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:15 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson  wrote:
> ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new version
is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell your rights:

"You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software to
another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you and the
receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement,
provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users
of the Software."
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Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

The hell you say. The only deadline I've ever missed was the result of
my department's PCs being updated to Word 2003 without warning. There
were bugs that made it impossible to update the headers and footers in
a new features doc that had to be in Word format because marketing had
the final cut.

Why waste money on software I don't need? I bought Acrobat 8,
Photoshop 5, and Illustrator 7, and FrameMaker 6 years ago and they
still work fine. FrameMaker 8 was maybe worth the cost of upgrading,
nothing since then has been. If I'd been paying for subscriptions all
that time I'd have spent a lot more money than I did buying them
outright.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Yves Barbion  wrote:
> it is definitely a
> good thing if a subscription-based licensing plan always gives you the
> latest version of the software

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Maxwell Hoffmann]

Hello Everybody,

For the record, Adobe has made no announcements about Tech Comm Suite, 
FrameMaker or RoboHelp going to subscription only. The announcements discussed 
in this thread only involve Creative Suite. The change in future distribution 
of Creative Cloud was announced at the Adobe MAX conference in Los Angeles last 
week.

At this point, anything involving changes in how FrameMaker is distributed is 
just speculation. I appreciate everyone's feedback, but plans to build a 
competitive product and business plans for a competitive product may be a bit 
premature.  ;-)

I'm glad there is always so much creative energy within this forum. Keeps 
everyone on their toes.


Maxwell Hoffmann |? Product? Evangelist? |? Adobe? |? p. 503.336.5952? |? c. 
503.805.3719? |? mhoffman at adobe.com 
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -? 
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann? blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Maxwell Hoffmann]

Hi Robert,

Your opinion is appreciated and noted. For anyone who would like a summary of 
what has changed in FrameMaker since 2002, you can download a PDF document 
which contains a matrix of which features were introduced in FM7.2, FM8, FM9 
and FM11. Interesting reading.

Here is the link: http://adobe.ly/PAQS1u


___
Maxwell Hoffmann |? Product? Evangelist? |? Adobe? |? p. 503.336.5952? |? c. 
503.805.3719? |? mhoffman at adobe.com 
http://twitter.com/maxwellhoffmann -? 
http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellhoffmann? blogs.adobe.com/techcomm
Upcoming webinars http://adobe.ly/Pbz6xIRecorded webinars: 
http://adobe.ly/Pbdp0J



-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:31 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides, not on 
how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come up with 
anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,   wrote:
> The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
> to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
___

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Flare doesn't offer anything I need that I don't already have from
FrameMaker and WebWorks, and it lacks some things I find very useful,
such as WYSIWYG editing for continuous PDF preview and the ability to
save change markup to PDF for review.

And neither do the thing I'm most interested in these days, which is
exporting to Confluence 4 / 5.

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Francis Novak
 wrote:
> MadCap Flare is a great replacement for FrameMaker. In fact, many of our 
> customers come from Frame. The key difference being more of a topic-based 
> approach. MadCap Flare can be used for both professional quality print and 
> online or mobile content...

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:00 +1200 14/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

 The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel I 
 referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and why Adobe 
 has gone direct to the market.

Ah, right - I understand. No, I don't remember anything like that here.

-- 
Steve
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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Ed Nodland]

I think my response is far from the mission of this forum but the statement
below just hooked me, it is also a nice diversion from the daily work to
read all the responses, and I bet our thoughts trickle back into Adobe.

A previous post said:

The problem with customers is that they cost money to do business with.

Am I taking this out of context, or should I have it turned into a banner
that hangs near the front door or cash register.

The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value.

I think it depends on a companies mission statement and core values.  Are
they still passionate about the product or service, or is has it become
just about the money.  I realize both forces at play and balance is
required to sustain business.

A new business model is emerging.  I've read a lot of pros and cons on this
thread. Some will prove to be real, adjustments will be made, business will
grow, decline or maybe fail.  In the perspective of things unfolding from
the creativity of the cosmos, I see this as another iteration towards cloud
computing, but rather than stepping to total cloud computing like Google
Docs/Drive where we don't have the software at all, it's just cloud
software delivery for now.  It is a systemic result that emerges from
individuals trying to make isolated business decisions based on, or
building on, ideas they see elsewhere.

I'm actually more interested in watching the open source concept grow into
an entirely new economy where the passion is about the product and the
money comes from some other offshoot, or like someone wrote about Oxygen
where the academic license allows some small scale usage while the money
comes in from other larger sources.  I think the economy is going to change
in the next 50 years in ways we can't even image due to the connectiveness
of the internet and access to free and low cost entertainment, education,
information, apps, and services.

I bet the large companies that highly control software versions like a
large aerospace firm I used to work for, medical device companies that
Craig mentioned, or other safety critical product companies, are going to
be busy figuring out how to work in this new model.

Ed
You can't change the waves, but you can pick which wave you want to ride.
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RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Gillian Flato]

Isn't that what MadCap tried to do?

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain 
(syed.hos...@aeris.net)
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:06 PM
To: Writer; craig...@hotmail.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I raise my hand ... :)

Now ... who is responsible for getting funding?

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:33 AM
To: craig...@hotmail.com; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I say we start a new company and create a competitor to FrameMaker! Who's with 
me? Anyone? Anyone?

*crickets chirp*

=D

Nadine


- Original Message -
 From: Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Cc: 
 Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 1:24:36 PM
 Subject: FW: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
 only
 
T his is troubling, and so one message is buy the CS software on 
CD/DVD  while you still can. A number of my friends, most connected 
with academic  institutions, are doing that.
 
 I expect Adobe is attempting to have everyone on the same page as 
 regards these applications so that one set of help files defines the 
 current state
 of an application. This would help a lot in terms of expected outcomes 
 when using the product. However, it requires a constant state of 
 reeducation as new features are added and different ways of handling things 
 are introduced.
 Not that we don't have to deal with this already, but at least we know 
 if we do something in a given version, it is going to work in a way 
 that we already are familiar with.
 
 As for extending this the current version of the app beyond the 
 bounds of the Creative Suite, I rather doubt that Adobe will do that 
 anytime soon. If they have their finger on the pulse of their users 
 they must realized that, for instance, in the medical device industry, 
 all tools used to produce documentation must be validated. It would be 
 impossible  (and expensive!) to validate a moving target as the apps 
 were continually being improved and the former version made 
 unavailable.
 
 Craig Ede
 -Original Message-
 From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve 
 Rickaby
 Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 11:38 AM
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Subject: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription 
 only
 
 I have just heard a rumor that the CS Suite is going to available in 
 future only on an SaaS basis, by subscription. TCS/FrameMaker could follow?
 
 I do wonder whether the accountants that run large corporates like 
 Adobe understand how important their software is to the countless 
 thousands of freelances who have to scrape every last penny to buy it
 - but at least then they own something, not vapor that goes phut as 
 soon as you stop paying for it.
 
 For the last two decades FrameMaker, Illustrator, Acrobat and 
 Dreamweaver have been the rocks underpinning what I do. I'm far less 
 sure about the future, though.
 
 --
 Steve [somewhat aghast]
 
 
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Re: FM8 and Win8 (Was: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only)

[Robert Lauriston]

I don't think MS's new can't-call-it-Metro UI has gotten any traction
in corporate environments. If they don't want Windows 8 to be a bigger
flop than Vista, compatibility is essential.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Lea Rush l...@astoria-pacific.com wrote:
 I'm one who's stayed with FM8 and become increasingly happy about that
 decision as I've watched the issues with the new interface accumulate. I'd
 like to keep using it as long as possible or until Jeremy's project comes to
 fruition. :)

 However, I'm a little concerned about Win8. FM8 is five years old, and I'm a
 bit concerned about compatibility, especially in the light of some Microsoft
 engineers slipping and referring to the legacy desktop interface.
 Thoughts?
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RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Heiko Haida]

 

Dear Rick, 

please allow one note about the print engine.


FrameMaker is still using the old Distiller engine (at least version
10 does).
I recently had to switch a workflow from Indesign to
FrameMaker and found it annoying that Indesign would produce a valid PDF
right away whereas with FrameMaker I have to correct all PDFs in Acrobat
to produce PDF/X3 with color profile and valid bleed box.
And as
transparency is not fully supported via the Distiller engine, the actual
PDF/X4 format cannot be produced (the favorite format for one of our
printing service companies). 

So finally, I came to think that not
FrameMaker, but Indesign may have one of the best print engines - at
least more flexible and more up to date than FrameMaker's. 

Best
regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

Rick Quatro: 

 Here is my
suggestion on where to start. I would like a light-weight editor
 where
the user could apply styles, insert tables, images, etc. The styles

would be mapped to a schema so that the user could output XML. Then a
full
 copy of FrameMaker could be used as print engine. You would set
up a
 structured application in full FrameMaker, and import the XML for
print,
 etc.
 
 The reasons I favor this approach:
 
 1) FrameMaker
is currently the best print engine on the market for
 producing
high-quality print/PDF output.
 
 2) With a light-weight editor, you
would only need one copy of FrameMaker
 for output. The rest of the
writers/editors could use the light-weight
 editor.
 
 3) You could
easily exchange content with users of other XML editors as long
 as
everyone is using the same schema.
 
 4) This is a realistic first
step to a FrameMaker replacement. Anything
 more complex may be too
ambitious and not get too far.
 
 Rick Quatro
 Carmen Publishing
Inc.
 585-283-5045
 r...@frameexpert.com
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Ken Poshedly]

I was contacted by the reseller that my company uses earlier today and it turns 
out that only it will be either all or nothing, no picking-and-choosing.

We here use FM, Acrobat Professional and may be getting into InDesign in the 
future, but we have no need -- and do not see a need in the future -- for all 
of 
the other stuff.

And it appears, from an e-mail from my reseller, that we may be SOL regarding 
upgrades to our currently licensed software in the not-too-distant future:


· * 15 new CC apps including Adobe Photoshop CC, Adobe InDesign CC, 
Adobe Illustrator CC and more will be made available to all CCT users by 
June17th
· *Adobe has confirmed any future enhancements for their creative 
products will be available through their CCT offering only (boldfacing mine)

· * CCT Packager available for centralized IT deployment
· * New LOWER price for your additional copies effective NOW thru 
8/31/2013.  ($480 MSRP)
By the way, the reseller my company uses is very straight-up and hasn't steered 
us wrong in the past, so nothing against them.

-- Ken in Atlanta





From: dave.st...@gdc4s.com dave.st...@gdc4s.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Mon, May 13, 2013 9:03:21 AM
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

2013-05-13-01T13:00Z

There's that death knell again . . ..

Dave Stamm
Information Engineer

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: 2013-05-09-Thursday 12:38
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

I have just heard a rumor that the CS Suite is going to available in future 
only 
on an SaaS basis, by subscription. TCS/FrameMaker could follow?

I do wonder whether the accountants that run large corporates like Adobe 
understand how important their software is to the countless thousands of 
freelances who have to scrape every last penny to buy it - but at least then 
they own something, not vapor that goes phut as soon as you stop paying for it.

For the last two decades FrameMaker, Illustrator, Acrobat and Dreamweaver have 
been the rocks underpinning what I do. I'm far less sure about the future, 
though.

-- 
Steve [somewhat aghast]
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Re: FM8 and Win8 (Was: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only)

[Frank Rees]

Lea,

I'm using an even older version of Frame; Frame 6.0p405 and have 
upgraded to Window 8 ( albeit without a touch screen monitor). Frame 6.0 
works fine and I have not seen any interface or other problems. O do, 
however, use the compatibility feature of Windows to launch Frame under 
Windows XP.


Frank Rees
On 5/13/2013 1:23 PM, Lea Rush wrote:

I'm one who's stayed with FM8 and become increasingly happy about that
decision as I've watched the issues with the new interface accumulate. I'd
like to keep using it as long as possible or until Jeremy's project comes to
fruition. :)

However, I'm a little concerned about Win8. FM8 is five years old, and I'm a
bit concerned about compatibility, especially in the light of some Microsoft
engineers slipping and referring to the legacy desktop interface.
Thoughts?

Thanks much,
Lea


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-
boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:34 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

Old versions of FrameMaker do what FrameMaker used to do as well as ever.

I'd

really like to get my hands on a copy of FrameMaker 8.


_
Lea Rush
Software and Documentation Specialist
Astoria-Pacific
www.astoria-pacific.com
P: 800-536-3111, +1-503-657-3010

Please consider the environment before printing this email.
`..¸¸..´¯`..¸..´¯`¸ º`..¸¸..´¯`..¸..´¯`¸º
  
NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY
  
This communication is from Astoria-Pacific and is intended to be

confidential and solely for the use of the persons or entities addressed
above.  If you are not an intended recipient, be aware that the information
contained herein may be protected from unauthorized use by privilege or law,
and any copying, distribution, disclosure, or other use of this information
is prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please
contact the sender by return email or telephone (503) 657-3010 immediately,
and delete or destroy all copies.  Thank you for your cooperation.

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--
*Frank Rees*
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Harro de Jong
harro.dej...@triviewgroup.com wrote:
 The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
 have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
 upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
 license once a new version is available.

There's nothing in the FM10 or earlier licensing agreements I've read
that would allow Adobe to revoke your right to use the software so
long as you observe the restrictions of the agreement.

The clause you're quoting means that If the currently installed and
licensed version is an update or upgrade, Adobe has no obligation to
provide the support for the earlier versions. For example, if you
upgrade to FM11 while you still have an active support contract for
FM10, the support contract is shifted to FM11, and they no longer have
any obligation to provide any support for FM10.

5. Updates. If the Software is an upgrade or update to a previous
version of Adobe software, you must possess a valid license to such
previous version in order to use such upgrade or update. After you
install such update or upgrade, you may continue to use any such
previous version in accordance with its end-user license agreement
only if (a) the upgrade or update and all previous versions are
installed on the same Computer, (b) the previous versions or copies
thereof are not transferred to another party or device unless all
copies of the update or upgrade are also transferred to such party or
device, and (c) you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may have to
support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the
upgrade or update. No other use of the previous version(s) is
permitted after installation of an update or upgrade.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Steve Johnson chinask...@gmail.com wrote:
 ... you can't buy old versions of anything from anybody ever ...

Maybe licensed resellers have to return all old software when a new
version is released, but the FrameMaker 10 license allows you to sell
your rights:

You may ... permanently transfer all your rights to use the Software
to another individual or legal entity ... Adobe may require that you
and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this
agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and
register as end-users of the Software.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Customers value a business based on the goods or services it provides,
not on how much money it makes for its stockholders. Adobe hasn't come
up with anything new I thought was worth paying for since 2002.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:19 PM,  dave.st...@gdc4s.com wrote:
 The purpose of business is to make money.  The purpose of business is _not_ 
 to produce a valuable good or to deliver a worthwhile service.
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RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Tino,

 

I get what you are saying. Maybe instead of print engine I should use the 
term layout engine. In my opinion, the whole EDD concept for formatting XML 
in FrameMaker is very powerful and accessible. I don't think there is anything 
quite as good in the XML world, especially if you need quality print and PDF 
output. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Rick

 

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Heiko Haida
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:11 PM
To: Framers
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

 

Dear Rick,

please allow one note about the print engine.

FrameMaker is still using the old Distiller engine (at least version 10 does).
I recently had to switch a workflow from Indesign to FrameMaker and found it 
annoying that Indesign would produce a valid PDF right away whereas with 
FrameMaker I have to correct all PDFs in Acrobat to produce PDF/X3 with color 
profile and valid bleed box.
And as transparency is not fully supported via the Distiller engine, the actual 
PDF/X4 format cannot be produced (the favorite format for one of our printing 
service companies).

So finally, I came to think that not FrameMaker, but Indesign may have one of 
the best print engines - at least more flexible and more up to date than 
FrameMaker's.

Best regards -

Tino H. Haida, Berlin

 

Rick Quatro:

Here is my suggestion on where to start. I would like a light-weight editor
where the user could apply styles, insert tables, images, etc. The styles
would be mapped to a schema so that the user could output XML. Then a full
copy of FrameMaker could be used as print engine. You would set up a
structured application in full FrameMaker, and import the XML for print,
etc.
 
The reasons I favor this approach:
 
1) FrameMaker is currently the best print engine on the market for
producing high-quality print/PDF output.
 
2) With a light-weight editor, you would only need one copy of FrameMaker
for output. The rest of the writers/editors could use the light-weight
editor.
 
3) You could easily exchange content with users of other XML editors as long
as everyone is using the same schema.
 
4) This is a realistic first step to a FrameMaker replacement. Anything
more complex may be too ambitious and not get too far.
 
Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.com

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OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Alan T Litchfield]

Thanks. Those are the corporate resellers I was referring to previously. 
The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel 
I referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and 
why Adobe has gone direct to the market.

The added value is worked out in terms of training and specific industry 
support.

Alan

On 13/05/13 9:39 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 07:11 +1200 13/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:
>
>> These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You know, 
>> retail channel?
>
> Not shops as such: my understanding is that they sell Adobe products and also 
> training. I have dealt with two recently: Certitec and Phoenix Software. It 
> was Adobe UK that referred me to the latter.
>

-- 
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:00 +1200 14/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

> The retail reseller channel does not exist anymore. It was that channel I 
> referred to when I said that they are too expensive to maintain and why Adobe 
> has gone direct to the market.

Ah, right - I understand. No, I don't remember anything like that here.

-- 
Steve

Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Tino,



I get what you are saying. Maybe instead of "print engine" I should use the 
term "layout engine". In my opinion, the whole EDD concept for formatting XML 
in FrameMaker is very powerful and accessible. I don't think there is anything 
quite as good in the XML world, especially if you need quality print and PDF 
output. Thanks for the feedback.



Rick



From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Heiko Haida
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 2:11 PM
To: Framers
Subject: RE: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only



Dear Rick,

please allow one note about the "print engine".

FrameMaker is still using the old Distiller engine (at least version 10 does).
I recently had to switch a workflow from Indesign to FrameMaker and found it 
annoying that Indesign would produce a valid PDF right away whereas with 
FrameMaker I have to correct all PDFs in Acrobat to produce PDF/X3 with color 
profile and valid bleed box.
And as transparency is not fully supported via the Distiller engine, the actual 
PDF/X4 format cannot be produced (the favorite format for one of our printing 
service companies).

So finally, I came to think that not FrameMaker, but Indesign may have one of 
the best "print engines" - at least more flexible and more up to date than 
FrameMaker's.

Best regards -

Tino H. Haida, Berlin



Rick Quatro:

Here is my suggestion on where to start. I would like a light-weight editor
where the user could apply styles, insert tables, images, etc. The styles
would be mapped to a schema so that the user could output XML. Then a full
copy of FrameMaker could be used as "print engine". You would set up a
structured application in full FrameMaker, and import the XML for print,
etc.

The reasons I favor this approach:

1) FrameMaker is currently the best "print engine" on the market for
producing high-quality print/PDF output.

2) With a light-weight editor, you would only need one copy of FrameMaker
for output. The rest of the writers/editors could use the light-weight
editor.

3) You could easily exchange content with users of other XML editors as long
as everyone is using the same schema.

4) This is a realistic "first step" to a FrameMaker replacement. Anything
more complex may be too ambitious and not get too far.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com

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Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

MadCap's original impetus was to create a successor to RoboHelp, which
at the time looked like it had been abandoned by its then-owner
Macromedia.

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Gillian Flato
 wrote:
> Isn't that what MadCap tried to do?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at 
> lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
> Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:33 AM
> To: craigede at hotmail.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
>
> I say we start a new company and create a competitor to FrameMaker! Who's 
> with me? Anyone? Anyone?

Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Rickaby]

At 07:11 +1200 13/5/13, Alan T Litchfield wrote:

These are resellers as in, computer shops selling boxes and stuff? You know, 
retail channel?

Not shops as such: my understanding is that they sell Adobe products and also 
training. I have dealt with two recently: Certitec and Phoenix Software. It was 
Adobe UK that referred me to the latter.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Johnson]

Adobe introduces subscription-based licensing. So many of its users find it
an outstanding value that over time, most of them license software by
subscription. Adobe is rewarded for being innovative and Adobe serves its
customers better. Everybody wins.

Adobe ends its relationship with resellers over time so that, eventually,
all users license software directly from Adobe .. either subscription or
download or disks (at an extra cost).

This is also a success story for Adobe; it's rewarded because it's
providing a better service for its customers and at the same time, it's
doing better for its shareholders. That's how capitalism is supposed to
work.

Choice is the entire issue. Everyone who made the case for subscription has
a great point. It's not what I choose but I have no reason to tell you
subscription is bad for *you*.

Choice ... it's what humans do all the time. Adobe has removed the choice
from some percentage of its users and there's no reason for it. Maybe Adobe
has gotten to the point where it no longer believes customers make Adobe
successful. Maybe they think they're so big they don't have to think about
customers anymore; we, Adobe, make YOU successful.

I don't know; fact is, they're doing their customers a disservice by
limiting our choice for how we license software from them. Subscriptions
are great, just give me back what I want and I'm perfectly content.


On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 11:42 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nzwrote:

 Funny how people put words between the lines...

 On 12/05/13 12:08 PM, Steve Johnson wrote:

 That's some interesting points and some of them are probably partially
 true. What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers
 for its relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were
 more rational and obedient, Adobe would be better off.


 I never said Adobe blames anyone for anything. I am saying that Adobe
 has shareholders and share values are important. Customers are important
 too, but they are important because they improve share value (more
 customers, better share values). However, customers are only valuable when
 they are encouraged to part with their money, so to have customers pay more
 frequently is better than when they don't.

 The problem with cusomters is that they cost money to do business with.
 The cost of customer management has a negative effect on share value. So,
 cut the cost of doing business and improve share value. The subscription
 model Adobe are rolling out does just that.

 Obedience has nothing to do with it. Don't make it a human factor.
 Humanity has nothing to do with this. This is economics.


 You're side of the mark about resellers. Adobe locks down pricing and
 availability of its software; you can't buy old versions of anything
 from anybody ever and you can't get more than a few dollars of discount
 from anybody. Having other people sell for you is generally a good
 thing.


 Ignoring the bit about buying old versions, as a former reseller, I can
 quite confidently tell you that you are wrong.

 Resellers are expensive to support and no longer bring real value to the
 product. With the advance of Internet and peer support of products, Adobe
 had long since removed the reseller from the channel. The subscription
 model merely removes the last part of the retail chain. Sure, there remain
 some resellers but they are concerned with large customers who need
 specific licensing requirements. These are the ones that for Adobe to do
 itself, are uneconomic.

  But again, in the Adobe way of looking at things, what's good for
  the customer is bad because customers always do the wrong thing.

 Sorry, makes no sense. Customers (those that pay for stuff) always do the
 right thing when they are relieved of their money.


 Adobe is making this change in anticipation of other changes yet to be
 announced.


 Meh. It's just another way to do business. I have worked out that the
 subscription model will cost me about twice much to keep getting access to
 what I have now. It will disadvantage me in the future because I have to
 continue to pay for something I do not have to continue to pay for now.

  If you love the subscription model you'll love whatever else
 they have in mind for you. It's a good time to be an apologist.


 If I too were a fanboy, then maybe I too would be all smoochy about it. I
 have been in this business for too many years. I do not like it that this
 company (or any other) decide that I have not been paying enough for what I
 have been using and make it so that I pay more. I do not like it that I
 have to have the corporation in my head every month come subscription time.

 On the other hand, it is good time to be a user of LaTeX, et al.

 I am keen to see what Jeremy has to offer.

 Alan




 On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nz
 mailto:a...@alphabyte.co.nz wrote:


 On 12/05/2013, at 6:36 AM, Steve Johnson wrote:

 Almost everyone 

Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

Old versions of FrameMaker do what FrameMaker used to do as well as
ever. I'd really like to get my hands on a copy of FrameMaker 8.

That whole model seems outdated to me. I'd like to switch to Confluence.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nz wrote:
 Time for a robust system that does what FM
 used to do so well.
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Robert Lauriston]

One benefit of the subscription model is that a company can focus 100%
on the current and next releases. That should significantly reduce
support costs, eliminates the cost of providing and distributing patch
releases for old versions, and reduces various other costs due to
reduced complexity.

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Steve Johnson chinask...@gmail.com wrote:
 Of what benefit to Adobe is depriving us to choose what we want?
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Re: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Steve Johnson]

That's some interesting points and some of them are probably partially
true. What you're saying basically is that Adobe blames its customers for
its relative low profit margins and share price. If only we were more
rational and obedient, Adobe would be better off.

You're side of the mark about resellers. Adobe locks down pricing and
availability of its software; you can't buy old versions of anything from
anybody ever and you can't get more than a few dollars of discount from
anybody. Having other people sell for you is generally a good thing. But
again, in the Adobe way of looking at things, what's good for the customer
is bad because customers always do the wrong thing.

Adobe is making this change in anticipation of other changes yet to be
announced. If you love the subscription model you'll love whatever else
they have in mind for you. It's a good time to be an apologist.


On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nzwrote:


 On 12/05/2013, at 6:36 AM, Steve Johnson wrote:

  Almost everyone keeps ignoring the question of CHOICE. There's no doubt
 you can make a case for subscription but you can also make a case for
 getting the disks or downloading the software.

 Of what benefit to Adobe is depriving us to choose what we want? Why is
 mailing me disks for additional cost or providing a download bad for Adobe?
 Clearly it isn't. There is something else going on.

 Certainly Adobe will jack up the price of subscription. They might have
 other things in mind also but the point is, why make everyone adopt a model
 that doesn't benefit everyone? What's in it for Adobe? That's what I'd like
 to know.




 Decreased cost for license management, increased cash flow through
 subscriptions, constant income stream as opposed to periodic peaks related
 to new product releases, increased profit margins, better share value,
 regional price control and management (we typically pay 3x the US cost for
 the same software), better release management (no more pesky resellers and
 middlemen), better profits from cutting out middlemen and resellers,
 therefore even better share value, more accurate profit forecasts at
 shorter time intervals, therefore even better share value,...

 Alan

 --
 AlphaByte
 PO Box 1941, Auckland, 1140
 New Zealand
 http://www.alphabyte.co.nz


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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[rebecca officer]

Hi Jeremy
 
Did you consider expanding LaTeX?
 
A fully-featured reliable wysiwyg interface for LaTeX could be a strong 
unstructured FM alternative.
 
It's years since I used LaTeX much but I found it pretty good when I did. Not 
easy, but good.
 
Cheers
Rebecca

 Jeremy H. Griffith jer...@omsys.com 12/05/13 12:54 
On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:33:13 -0700 (PDT), Writer 
generic...@yahoo.ca wrote:

I say we start a new company and create a competitor 
to FrameMaker! Who's with me? Anyone? Anyone?

Well... we've had one on the back burner for several 
years now.  Basically it's an Open Source GPL project,
so zero financing needed, with a very basic core and
plugins independently installable for most of the
functionality.  We called it Omni 2.0, after the
very first product I wrote, the first screen-oriented 
editor ever on CP/M 1.4 on 8080 (way before WordStar).

If there really is much interest, we can set it up
as a SourceForge project pretty easily (we have a
couple of others on SourceForge).  We're not set on
that name, or on much of anything else except GPL.

Greed doesn't always have to win out...  ;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  jer...@omsys.comhttp://mif2go.com/
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RE: OT: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Harro de Jong]

Craig Ede wrote:


 Your point about ownership is well taken. However, having a disk does mean 
 that
 you have access to a given software package you can count on (and not some
 changing version of it). Also, given that license, they cannot revoke your 
 ability of
 use the software in that state, and they have certain obligations to make 
 sure you
 are able to do that (i.e. they can't simply turn of your license at their end 
 on a whim).
 Obviously, they can turn off support at some point.
 
 Or maybe I am wrong about their responsibilities. I'd love to hear more info 
 on this
 topic.

The FM9 license states that ' you acknowledge that any obligation Adobe may 
have to support the previous version(s) may end upon the availability of the 
upgrade or update.' IANAL, but to me that implies they can turn off your 
license once a new version is available. 

Adobe's track record isn't that bad: activation for Frame 9 is still available, 
and when they closed down the activation for CS2, they provided a download for 
a version that doesn't need activation. 


Harro de Jong
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Shmuel Wolfson]

  
  
Another option is to expand OpenOffice,
  which is also pretty good, but need more single-sourcing
  capabilities.
  Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

  On 13-May-13 1:38 AM, rebecca officer wrote:


  
  
  Hi Jeremy
  
  Did you consider expanding LaTeX?
  
  A fully-featured reliable wysiwyg interface for LaTeX could
be a strong unstructured FM alternative.
  
  It's years since I used LaTeX much but I found it pretty good
when I did. Not easy, but good.
  
  Cheers
  Rebecca
  
  
 "Jeremy H. Griffith" jer...@omsys.com
12/05/13 12:54 
On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:33:13 -0700 (PDT), Writer 
generic...@yahoo.ca wrote:

I say we start a new company and create a competitor 
to FrameMaker! Who's with me? Anyone? Anyone?

Well... we've had one on the back burner for several 
years now. Basically it's an Open Source GPL project,
so zero financing needed, with a very basic core and
plugins independently installable for most of the
functionality. We called it "Omni 2.0", after the
very first product I wrote, the first screen-oriented 
editor ever on CP/M 1.4 on 8080 (way before WordStar).

If there really is much interest, we can set it up
as a SourceForge project pretty easily (we have a
couple of others on SourceForge). We're not set on
that name, or on much of anything else except GPL.

Greed doesn't always have to win out... ;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
 jer...@omsys.com http://mif2go.com/
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Any views expressed in this message are those of the
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Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only

[Writer]

At the risk of sounding all Pollyanna, perhaps what Adobe is doing is actually 
good for the tech writing community. Perhaps it WILL inspire people to create 
other choices/other competition.

At least it is prompting the conversation.

Nadine

--- On Sat, 5/11/13, Jeremy H. Griffith jer...@omsys.com wrote:

 From: Jeremy H. Griffith jer...@omsys.com
 Subject: Re: Corporate madness - Adobe software to be subscription only
 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com
 Received: Saturday, May 11, 2013, 8:54 PM
 On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:33:13 -0700
 (PDT), Writer 
 generic...@yahoo.ca
 wrote:
 
 I say we start a new company and create a competitor 
 to FrameMaker! Who's with me? Anyone? Anyone?
 
 Well... we've had one on the back burner for several 
 years now.  Basically it's an Open Source GPL project,
 so zero financing needed, with a very basic core and
 plugins independently installable for most of the
 functionality.  We called it Omni 2.0, after the
 very first product I wrote, the first screen-oriented 
 editor ever on CP/M 1.4 on 8080 (way before WordStar).
 
 If there really is much interest, we can set it up
 as a SourceForge project pretty easily (we have a
 couple of others on SourceForge).  We're not set on
 that name, or on much of anything else except GPL.
 
 Greed doesn't always have to win out...  ;-)
 
 -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
   jer...@omsys.com 
   http://mif2go.com/
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