Re: Fine tuning pagination
You've already received many excellent suggestions for copy fitting, most of them pertaining to text. If you have exhibits such as illustrations and tables, you can also adjust the spacing above and below the frames that hold them, and around the objects in them. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
This is what we do, we still space from Peter, give it to Paul. Scott White Media Production Manager Implementation Coordinator 210-704-8239 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Apr 22, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Jim Owens wrote: You've already received many excellent suggestions for copy fitting, most of them pertaining to text. If you have exhibits such as illustrations and tables, you can also adjust the spacing above and below the frames that hold them, and around the objects in them. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Fine tuning pagination
Steve, OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb questions follow. Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot Negative tracking? Thanks! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses headers rather than footers. All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at the beginning and works forward towards the end of a book because everything knocks on at least to the end of the current chapter/book part. You can do 98% of what you want with FrameMaker global controls, but you are almost always forced to 'break the rules' about local overrides to get the last 2% just right. Just live with it ;-) -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Fine tuning pagination
Hedley, BTW, this is not a user guide. It's a technical book. More of my ignorance about to show. @Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly. Using the word spacing options in the paragraph designer? @Increase the depth of all pages. snip Is this adjusting the text frame size on master pages? @If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back. snip It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable. Is this adjusting the text frame size on body pages, but making sure facing pages are have the same text frame size? Thanks for all the tips. Just trying to understand the mechanics. ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hedley Finger Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07 PM To: Framers Self-Support Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination Linda: Steve Rickaby quoted: I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Steve has given you some excellent advice. Some others you can do digitally are: @Change to a smaller body font *but* never ever try to reduce line spacing to fit more lines. Ideally the apparent white space between the baseline of one line and the x-line of the one below should be about double the x-height. @Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly. @Increase the depth of all pages. Change to a double-column format as suggested by Steve. @Reduce the size of type in tables. @Reduce the size of all illustrations. When I was in publishing in the days of hot metal type and later cold type (type on photographic paper), we had a few other strategies to fit pages. @To deal with orphans (a short line at the top of the next page), first reduce the space above and below headings; in cold type terms, cut up the camera copy and move strips of paper around. (Also works for widows -- the first line of a paragraph at the foot of the page.) @If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back. (Also works for widows to pull one line back so it's not lonely any more; alternatively, decrease the depth of the page by one line to push the widow over.) It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable. @If still in a jam, reduce the size of diagrams or illustrations, especially photographs, which may additionally be cropped. @In the last resort, remove some adjectives or other non-essential text (don't consult the author -- it's a user guide, not holy writ). @Return to and study the illustrations carefully. Are they comfort illustrations to simply reassure the reader that they have arrived at the right window or dialogue? If so, cut them. @Ask the printer if it is possible to print an 8-page section two-up, halving the print run. This (2 x 8 pp = 16pp) section can be slit on the folder, and then bound in with the 16 pp sections. @Finally, just accept a few blank pages at the end of the book. Can you put some house adverts for products or services on these pages? Regards, Hedley -- Hedley Finger 28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first) Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558 Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lindag%40techcomplus.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
Linda G. Gallagher wrote: Steve, Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot Negative tracking? Thanks! I can field this one, with some extra suggestions. In the Paragraph and Character Designers, you can use Spread to alter the spacing between letters, and Stretch to alter the width of the characters. In the Paragraph Designer, you can alter the spacing between words. You can use these as overrides to nudge the way your text flows from page to page. Start early in the flow and work forward. If you want to take up more pages, look for a paragraph where the last line is almost full, and then nudge the text in the paragraph until it goes to a new line. If you want fewer pages, look for a paragraph where the text flows to a new line by one or two short words, and then nudge the flow to take up one less line. THe knock-on effect for subsequent page breaks can be dramatic. Are you using balanced columns with feathering? If so, you can also adjust the interline and inter-paragraph padding. In this case, look for orphans and widows, and use the padding limits to nudge them forward or back. Properly used, these controls can be subtle. Don't abuse them or your page will start looking ugly. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Fine tuning pagination
At 08:55 -0600 22/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb questions follow. Not at all dumb... Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Yes, that's what I meant: making a small adjustment to the height of the main flow (at the bottom) on the preceding *body* page to the page containing an orphan. Yes, gross changes are out, as they will look bad, but sometimes a very small change can pull an orphan line back. If not, you can use 'keep with next' to pull the widow over the page break. One of the things proofreaders seem to write most often on my copy is 'take back'... little do they know how hard it can sometimes be!. Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? No, manually decreasing the size of the main flow a small amount, again at the bottom. Both these operations, on a body page, create a special instance that differs from the master. Clearly, if you reapply master pages, these special instances are discarded, but while they exist, FrameMaker recognises and honors them. Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot Negative tracking? Highlight a problem section of text, pull up the character designer, set all fields to 'As is' and then apply small negative percentages to the 'Spread' field. If anything up to -1% doesn't fix the problem, it's best to tackle it some other way, as the text compression might become visible. With these and Hedley's suggestions, you are operating more in the area of art than technology. Page balancing is always a compromise, but as with most print design, if it looks right, it probably is. You get an eye for it with time... sometimes quite a lot of time. I have not yet met a tech author who was also a trained graphic designer, although I expect such people do exist, and lucky they are. The rest of us have to muddle through picking up skills as we go along. It's part of the fun, I guess. HTH -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
Hi, Linda: You didn't say if the major problem you're facing is reducing content to fit the space available, extending it, or a combination of both. Your approach to a solution depends needs to consider these issues. Your feeling of ignorance may come from being offered so many good suggestions without an overall design plan to apply them to. They are not dumb questions; IMO, you'll be more comfortable answering them yourself once you're able to view them in context with your design solution. I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar resources before committing to an overall solution. All the well-meant suggestions on this thread are fragmentary techniques that are useful in achieving the design solution you settle upon, but they aren't solutions in themselves. Without an overall design solution planned in advance, you'll risk building a giraffe - a horse designed by a committee. In addition, applying many ad-hoc tweaks will make future maintenance difficult or impossible. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Linda G. Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb questions follow. Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot Negative tracking? Thanks! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses headers rather than footers. All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at the beginning and works forward towards the end of a book because everything knocks on at least to the end of the current chapter/book part. You can do 98% of what you want with FrameMaker global controls, but you are almost always forced to 'break the rules' about
Re: Fine tuning pagination
At 10:41 -0500 22/4/08, Peter Gold wrote: I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar resources before committing to an overall solution. Good advice indeed. I had assumed that Linda was working from an existing design, and I expect Hedley had too. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Fine tuning pagination
I would not try to do the signatures in Framemaker. You can use a plug-in for Adobe Acrobat, Quite Imposing Plus (http://www.quite.com/) to do the imposition of a pdf before you send it to the printer. I used the plug-in a lot for documents we sent to a Xerox Docutech. The plug in is a bit expensive, but we calculated that it paid for itself in a few jobs. Manually laying out the pages for higher page counts is extremely difficult to do. Hope this helps! Terri From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Fine tuning pagination Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:41:22 -0600 Framers, I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Thanks in advance! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/tjs_badger%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. _ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Fine tuning pagination
Continuing with my ignorance showing, the book is the third edition, all created with the same templates I designed a year or so ago. I just learned about the 16-page signatures last week. Previous editions were printed with a different process, and signatures were not an issue. I don't know yet whether I'm extending or reducing, as the content is currently being reviewed and the index has not yet been created. The book also has to be finished by May 9, so I don't have a lot of time and likely don't have budget for additional software or personnel. I will inquire, however. So, I likely have to make do with combination of your suggestions and what I can manage to figure out. Not an ideal situation, I'll grant you. If anyone knows a guru I might engage, let me know, but I don't think time or budget will permit. I'll also look into that plug-in. Thanks all! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:41 AM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: Steve Rickaby; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination Hi, Linda: You didn't say if the major problem you're facing is reducing content to fit the space available, extending it, or a combination of both. Your approach to a solution depends needs to consider these issues. Your feeling of ignorance may come from being offered so many good suggestions without an overall design plan to apply them to. They are not dumb questions; IMO, you'll be more comfortable answering them yourself once you're able to view them in context with your design solution. I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar resources before committing to an overall solution. All the well-meant suggestions on this thread are fragmentary techniques that are useful in achieving the design solution you settle upon, but they aren't solutions in themselves. Without an overall design solution planned in advance, you'll risk building a giraffe - a horse designed by a committee. In addition, applying many ad-hoc tweaks will make future maintenance difficult or impossible. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Linda G. Gallagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb questions follow. Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot Negative tracking? Thanks! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts
Fine tuning pagination
At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: >I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in >16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > >I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to >meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: . Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever . Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer . 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer . Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back . Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward . Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column . Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy . Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses headers rather than footers. All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at the beginning and works forward towards the end of a book because everything knocks on at least to the end of the current chapter/book part. You can do 98% of what you want with FrameMaker global controls, but you are almost always forced to 'break the rules' about local overrides to get the last 2% just right. Just live with it ;-) -- Steve
Fine tuning pagination
Linda: Steve Rickaby quoted: >> I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done >> >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break >> >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. >> > >> >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to >> >meet this need. >> Steve has given you some excellent advice. Some others you can do digitally are: @Change to a smaller body font *but* never ever try to reduce line spacing to fit more lines. Ideally the apparent white space between the baseline of one line and the x-line of the one below should be about double the x-height. @Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly. @Increase the depth of all pages. Change to a double-column format as suggested by Steve. @Reduce the size of type in tables. @Reduce the size of all illustrations. When I was in publishing in the days of hot metal type and later cold type (type on photographic paper), we had a few other strategies to fit pages. @To deal with orphans (a short line at the top of the next page), first reduce the space above and below headings; in cold type terms, cut up the camera copy and move strips of paper around. (Also works for widows -- the first line of a paragraph at the foot of the page.) @If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back. (Also works for widows to pull one line back so it's not lonely any more; alternatively, decrease the depth of the page by one line to push the widow over.) It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable. @If still in a jam, reduce the size of diagrams or illustrations, especially photographs, which may additionally be cropped. @In the last resort, remove some adjectives or other non-essential text (don't consult the author -- it's a user guide, not holy writ). @Return to and study the illustrations carefully. Are they comfort illustrations to simply reassure the reader that they have arrived at the right window or dialogue? If so, cut them. @Ask the printer if it is possible to print an 8-page section two-up, halving the print run. This (2 x 8 pp = 16pp) section can be slit on the folder, and then bound in with the 16 pp sections. @Finally, just accept a few blank pages at the end of the book. Can you put some house adverts for products or services on these pages? Regards, Hedley -- Hedley Finger 28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first) Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558 Email. "Hedley Finger"
Fine tuning pagination
You've already received many excellent suggestions for copy fitting, most of them pertaining to text. If you have exhibits such as illustrations and tables, you can also adjust the spacing above and below the frames that hold them, and around the objects in them.
Fine tuning pagination
This is what we do, we still space from Peter, give it to Paul. Scott White Media Production Manager Implementation Coordinator 210-704-8239 swhite at alamark.com On Apr 22, 2008, at 8:08 AM, Jim Owens wrote: > You've already received many excellent suggestions for copy fitting, > most of them pertaining to text. If you have exhibits such as > illustrations and tables, you can also adjust the spacing above and > below the frames that hold them, and around the objects in them. > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
Fine tuning pagination
Steve, OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb questions follow. Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? Negative tracking? Thanks! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: framers at FrameUsers.com Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: >I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in >16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > >I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to >meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses headers rather than footers. All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at the beginning and works forward towards the end of a book because everything knocks on at least to the end of the current chapter/book part. You can do 98% of what you want with FrameMaker global controls, but you are almost always forced to 'break the rules' about local overrides to get the last 2% just right. Just live with it ;-) -- Steve
Fine tuning pagination
Hedley, BTW, this is not a user guide. It's a technical book. More of my ignorance about to show. <@Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly.> Using the word spacing options in the paragraph designer? <@Increase the depth of all pages. > Is this adjusting the text frame size on master pages? <@If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back.It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable.> Is this adjusting the text frame size on body pages, but making sure facing pages are have the same text frame size? Thanks for all the tips. Just trying to understand the mechanics. ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Hedley Finger Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:07 PM To: Framers Self-Support Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination Linda: Steve Rickaby quoted: >> I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done >> >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break >> >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. >> > >> >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to >> >meet this need. >> Steve has given you some excellent advice. Some others you can do digitally are: @Change to a smaller body font *but* never ever try to reduce line spacing to fit more lines. Ideally the apparent white space between the baseline of one line and the x-line of the one below should be about double the x-height. @Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly. @Increase the depth of all pages. Change to a double-column format as suggested by Steve. @Reduce the size of type in tables. @Reduce the size of all illustrations. When I was in publishing in the days of hot metal type and later cold type (type on photographic paper), we had a few other strategies to fit pages. @To deal with orphans (a short line at the top of the next page), first reduce the space above and below headings; in cold type terms, cut up the camera copy and move strips of paper around. (Also works for widows -- the first line of a paragraph at the foot of the page.) @If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back. (Also works for widows to pull one line back so it's not lonely any more; alternatively, decrease the depth of the page by one line to push the widow over.) It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable. @If still in a jam, reduce the size of diagrams or illustrations, especially photographs, which may additionally be cropped. @In the last resort, remove some adjectives or other non-essential text (don't consult the author -- it's a user guide, not holy writ). @Return to and study the illustrations carefully. Are they comfort illustrations to simply reassure the reader that they have arrived at the right window or dialogue? If so, cut them. @Ask the printer if it is possible to print an 8-page section two-up, halving the print run. This (2 x 8 pp = 16pp) section can be slit on the folder, and then bound in with the 16 pp sections. @Finally, just accept a few blank pages at the end of the book. Can you put some house adverts for products or services on these pages? Regards, Hedley -- Hedley Finger 28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first) Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558 Email. "Hedley Finger" ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as lindag at techcomplus.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/lindag%40techcomplus.com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Fine tuning pagination
Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > Steve, > tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot> > > Negative tracking? > > Thanks! I can field this one, with some extra suggestions. In the Paragraph and Character Designers, you can use Spread to alter the spacing between letters, and Stretch to alter the width of the characters. In the Paragraph Designer, you can alter the spacing between words. You can use these as overrides to nudge the way your text flows from page to page. Start early in the flow and work forward. If you want to take up more pages, look for a paragraph where the last line is almost full, and then nudge the text in the paragraph until it goes to a new line. If you want fewer pages, look for a paragraph where the text flows to a new line by one or two short words, and then nudge the flow to take up one less line. THe "knock-on" effect for subsequent page breaks can be dramatic. Are you using balanced columns with feathering? If so, you can also adjust the interline and inter-paragraph padding. In this case, look for orphans and widows, and use the padding limits to nudge them forward or back. Properly used, these controls can be subtle. Don't abuse them or your page will start looking ugly.
Fine tuning pagination
At 08:55 -0600 22/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: >OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb >questions follow. Not at all dumb... > > >Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems >like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only >have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. Yes, that's what I meant: making a small adjustment to the height of the main flow (at the bottom) on the preceding *body* page to the page containing an orphan. Yes, gross changes are out, as they will look bad, but sometimes a very small change can pull an orphan line back. If not, you can use 'keep with next' to pull the widow over the page break. One of the things proofreaders seem to write most often on my copy is 'take back'... little do they know how hard it can sometimes be!. > > >Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? No, manually decreasing the size of the main flow a small amount, again at the bottom. Both these operations, on a body page, create a special instance that differs from the master. Clearly, if you reapply master pages, these special instances are discarded, but while they exist, FrameMaker recognises and honors them. > tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot> > >Negative tracking? Highlight a problem section of text, pull up the character designer, set all fields to 'As is' and then apply small negative percentages to the 'Spread' field. If anything up to -1% doesn't fix the problem, it's best to tackle it some other way, as the text compression might become visible. With these and Hedley's suggestions, you are operating more in the area of art than technology. Page balancing is always a compromise, but as with most print design, if it looks right, it probably is. You get an eye for it with time... sometimes quite a lot of time. I have not yet met a tech author who was also a trained graphic designer, although I expect such people do exist, and lucky they are. The rest of us have to muddle through picking up skills as we go along. It's part of the fun, I guess. HTH -- Steve
Fine tuning pagination
Hi, Linda: You didn't say if the major problem you're facing is reducing content to fit the space available, extending it, or a combination of both. Your approach to a solution depends needs to consider these issues. Your feeling of ignorance may come from being offered so many good suggestions without an overall design plan to apply them to. They are not dumb questions; IMO, you'll be more comfortable answering them yourself once you're able to view them in context with your design solution. I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar resources before committing to an overall solution. All the well-meant suggestions on this thread are fragmentary techniques that are useful in achieving the design solution you settle upon, but they aren't solutions in themselves. Without an overall design solution planned in advance, you'll risk building a "giraffe" - a horse designed by a committee. In addition, applying many ad-hoc tweaks will make future maintenance difficult or impossible. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > Steve, > > OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb > questions follow. > > > > Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems > like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only > have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. > > > > Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? > > > tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot> > > Negative tracking? > > Thanks! > > > ~ > Linda G. Gallagher > TechCom Plus, LLC > lindag at techcomplus dot com > www.techcomplus.com > 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 > User guides, online help, FrameMaker and > WebWorks ePublisher templates > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM > To: Linda G. Gallagher > Cc: framers at FrameUsers.com > Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination > > At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > > >I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in > >16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > > > >I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done > >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break > >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > > > >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to > >meet this need. > > Two subjects: > > 1. Making pages beautiful > > 2. Making a book the required length. > > FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: > > Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to > odd/even page count or whatever > > Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer > > 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer > > Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back > > Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward > > Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column > > Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page > occupancy > > Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative > tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot > > The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses > headers rather than footers. > > All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and > orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list > does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making > pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out > the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. > It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the > end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start > on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page > count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting > specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). > > This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing > after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at >
Fine tuning pagination
At 10:41 -0500 22/4/08, Peter Gold wrote: >I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and >dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar >resources before committing to an overall solution. Good advice indeed. I had assumed that Linda was working from an existing design, and I expect Hedley had too. -- Steve
Fine tuning pagination
Continuing with my ignorance showing, the book is the third edition, all created with the same templates I designed a year or so ago. I just learned about the 16-page signatures last week. Previous editions were printed with a different process, and signatures were not an issue. I don't know yet whether I'm extending or reducing, as the content is currently being reviewed and the index has not yet been created. The book also has to be finished by May 9, so I don't have a lot of time and likely don't have budget for additional software or personnel. I will inquire, however. So, I likely have to make do with combination of your suggestions and what I can manage to figure out. Not an ideal situation, I'll grant you. If anyone knows a guru I might engage, let me know, but I don't think time or budget will permit. I'll also look into that plug-in. Thanks all! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: knowhowpro at gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gold Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:41 AM To: Linda G. Gallagher Cc: Steve Rickaby; framers at frameusers.com Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination Hi, Linda: You didn't say if the major problem you're facing is reducing content to fit the space available, extending it, or a combination of both. Your approach to a solution depends needs to consider these issues. Your feeling of ignorance may come from being offered so many good suggestions without an overall design plan to apply them to. They are not dumb questions; IMO, you'll be more comfortable answering them yourself once you're able to view them in context with your design solution. I strongly suggest that you either engage a typesetting-savvy designer, and dig into good typography and book design books, online forums, and similar resources before committing to an overall solution. All the well-meant suggestions on this thread are fragmentary techniques that are useful in achieving the design solution you settle upon, but they aren't solutions in themselves. Without an overall design solution planned in advance, you'll risk building a "giraffe" - a horse designed by a committee. In addition, applying many ad-hoc tweaks will make future maintenance difficult or impossible. HTH Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > Steve, > > OK, I'm going to show my ignorance, but maybe I'm not the only one. Dumb > questions follow. > > > > Do you mean to make the main text frame on a body page larger? Hmm, seems > like that will look odd if pages have different size text frames. I do only > have headers, so I don't have to worry about bumping into footers. > > > > Similarly, make the text frame on a body page larger? > > > tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot> > > Negative tracking? > > Thanks! > > > ~ > Linda G. Gallagher > TechCom Plus, LLC > lindag at techcomplus dot com > www.techcomplus.com > 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 > User guides, online help, FrameMaker and > WebWorks ePublisher templates > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:48 PM > To: Linda G. Gallagher > Cc: framers at FrameUsers.com > Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination > > At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > > >I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in > >16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > > > >I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done > >basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break > >paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > > > >I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to > >meet this need. > > Two subjects: > > 1. Making pages beautiful > > 2. Making a book the required length. > > FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: > > Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to > odd/even page count or whatever > > Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer > > 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer > > Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back > > Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward > > Manually b
Fine tuning pagination
Linda, As you probably guessed by now, it's easier to add space than take it away without making a mess for the next revision. So I find it easier to go long, which may mean extra pages and more white space (the price of print). When tweaking styles, I always start with the larger text and work my way down to paras, notes and tables. Finally, I've used Quite Imposing for years (used to layout signatures with tumbled boxes on one big page-ugh!). Once the software is installed, the imposition takes (at most) a minute and you're done! Often, the printer will do the impositions. But having the program (around $300) means that I don't encounter possible platform/font issues when sending native files to the printer for imposition. It also lets me know, just about any time, where I am with the layout. Mollye Barrett ClearPath, LLC 414-331-1378
Fine tuning pagination
At 13:32 -0600 22/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: >Continuing with my ignorance showing, the book is the third edition, all >created with the same templates I designed a year or so ago. I just learned >about the 16-page signatures last week. Previous editions were printed with >a different process, and signatures were not an issue. > >I don't know yet whether I'm extending or reducing, as the content is >currently being reviewed and the index has not yet been created. The book >also has to be finished by May 9, so I don't have a lot of time and likely >don't have budget for additional software or personnel. I will inquire, >however. > >So, I likely have to make do with combination of your suggestions and what I >can manage to figure out. Not an ideal situation, I'll grant you. Linda: just balance the pages so that they look good, and pad out to 16s of you are more than 1 over, else try to drop that 1 to zero. It should get you by. -- Steve
RE: Fine tuning pagination
How do you tighten pages? I don't think adding notes pages is an option for this book, but would be an idea for other types of books. ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Scott White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:47 PM To: Framers Cc: Linda G. Gallagher Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination We always add note pages to the end of the pages to have them come out in 16- or 32-page signatures. This is going to be a hands-on process I think to make things fit and add pages where necessary and tighten pages where necessary. That is how we do it. Scott White Media Production Manager Implementation Coordinator 210-704-8239 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Apr 21, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: Framers, I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Thanks in advance! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
Hi, Linda: Shrinking to fit is usually more difficult than expanding to fit. While it's easy to tweak away with paragraph-, character-, and word-spacing properties to squeeze things in, it's also easy to create magnificently-ugliness. You can get some good advice from folks on typography forums about how to do the first without doing the second at the same time. If it's possible to work with the authors, editing the writing is one useful component in fitting stuff into available space. Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
At 15:41 -0600 21/4/08, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Two subjects: 1. Making pages beautiful 2. Making a book the required length. FrameMaker gives you a wide range of controls you can use to balance pages: . Ensuring that book parts have the correct basic pagination, to trim to odd/even page count or whatever . Widow/orphan control in the paragraph designer . 'Keep with next' option in the paragraph designer . Manually stretching the main page flow to take lines back . Manually shrinking the main page flow to move lines forward . Manually bouncing paras to the top of a new page/column . Moving large objects like figures and tables around to maximize page occupancy . Micro-control of text, for example adding small amounts of negative tracking to pull a hyphenated word back from a page foot The page shrink/stretch options are easier to use in a design that uses headers rather than footers. All the above can be used to beautify pages by minimizing widows and orphans, making sure that, say, the introductory sentence to a bullet list does not lie last on a recto page, and so on. These are all about making pages beautiful. At the end of the day, though, you might have to pad out the page count to get your total page count to a multiple of 16/32/whatever. It's not uncommon to find printed books with two or even four blanks at the end for this purpose. I have even had it suggested that chapters could start on a verso page, but I don't like it. In the case of grossly excessive page count, you might even have to resort to major design changes, like setting specific sections in multiple columns (it's happened to me). This sort of process should be done, of course, as absolutely the last thing after all text changes have been done. It is a serial process that starts at the beginning and works forward towards the end of a book because everything knocks on at least to the end of the current chapter/book part. You can do 98% of what you want with FrameMaker global controls, but you are almost always forced to 'break the rules' about local overrides to get the last 2% just right. Just live with it ;-) -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Fine tuning pagination
Linda: Steve Rickaby quoted: I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Steve has given you some excellent advice. Some others you can do digitally are: @Change to a smaller body font *but* never ever try to reduce line spacing to fit more lines. Ideally the apparent white space between the baseline of one line and the x-line of the one below should be about double the x-height. @Slightly condense the body type -- not too much or the proportions of strokes will become ugly. @Increase the depth of all pages. Change to a double-column format as suggested by Steve. @Reduce the size of type in tables. @Reduce the size of all illustrations. When I was in publishing in the days of hot metal type and later cold type (type on photographic paper), we had a few other strategies to fit pages. @To deal with orphans (a short line at the top of the next page), first reduce the space above and below headings; in cold type terms, cut up the camera copy and move strips of paper around. (Also works for widows -- the first line of a paragraph at the foot of the page.) @If that is insufficient, increase the depth of the double-spread by one line to pull the orphan back. (Also works for widows to pull one line back so it's not lonely any more; alternatively, decrease the depth of the page by one line to push the widow over.) It's considered bad form to have an overdepth page immediately next to an overleaf underdepth page, and vice versa. And facing pages that are different depths are unforgivable. @If still in a jam, reduce the size of diagrams or illustrations, especially photographs, which may additionally be cropped. @In the last resort, remove some adjectives or other non-essential text (don't consult the author -- it's a user guide, not holy writ). @Return to and study the illustrations carefully. Are they comfort illustrations to simply reassure the reader that they have arrived at the right window or dialogue? If so, cut them. @Ask the printer if it is possible to print an 8-page section two-up, halving the print run. This (2 x 8 pp = 16pp) section can be slit on the folder, and then bound in with the 16 pp sections. @Finally, just accept a few blank pages at the end of the book. Can you put some house adverts for products or services on these pages? Regards, Hedley -- Hedley Finger 28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Fax. (call phone first) Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558 Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Fine tuning pagination
Framers, I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to meet this need. Thanks in advance! ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates
Fine tuning pagination
We always add note pages to the end of the pages to have them come out in 16- or 32-page signatures. This is going to be a "hands-on" process I think to make things fit and add pages where necessary and tighten pages where necessary. That is how we do it. Scott White Media Production Manager Implementation Coordinator 210-704-8239 swhite at alamark.com On Apr 21, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > Framers, > > I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in > 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > > I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. > I've done > basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page > break > paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > > I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune > pagination to > meet this need. > > Thanks in advance! > > ~ > Linda G. Gallagher > TechCom Plus, LLC > lindag at techcomplus dot com > www.techcomplus.com > 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 > User guides, online help, FrameMaker and > WebWorks ePublisher templates > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
Fine tuning pagination
How do you "tighten" pages? I don't think adding notes pages is an option for this book, but would be an idea for other types of books. ~ Linda G. Gallagher TechCom Plus, LLC lindag at techcomplus dot com www.techcomplus.com 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 User guides, online help, FrameMaker and WebWorks ePublisher templates -Original Message- From: Scott White [mailto:swh...@alamark.com] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 3:47 PM To: Framers Cc: Linda G. Gallagher Subject: Re: Fine tuning pagination We always add note pages to the end of the pages to have them come out in 16- or 32-page signatures. This is going to be a "hands-on" process I think to make things fit and add pages where necessary and tighten pages where necessary. That is how we do it. Scott White Media Production Manager Implementation Coordinator 210-704-8239 swhite at alamark.com On Apr 21, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Linda G. Gallagher wrote: > Framers, > > I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in > 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > > I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. > I've done > basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page > break > paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > > I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune > pagination to > meet this need. > > Thanks in advance! > > ~ > Linda G. Gallagher > TechCom Plus, LLC > lindag at techcomplus dot com > www.techcomplus.com > 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 > User guides, online help, FrameMaker and > WebWorks ePublisher templates > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/swhite%40alamark.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
Fine tuning pagination
Hi, Linda: Shrinking to fit is usually more difficult than expanding to fit. While it's easy to tweak away with paragraph-, character-, and word-spacing properties to squeeze things in, it's also easy to create magnificently-ugliness. You can get some good advice from folks on typography forums about how to do the first without doing the second at the same time. If it's possible to work with the authors, editing the writing is one useful component in fitting stuff into available space. Regards, Peter ___ Peter Gold KnowHow ProServices
Fine tuning pagination
I would not try to do the signatures in Framemaker. You can use a plug-in for Adobe Acrobat, Quite Imposing Plus (http://www.quite.com/) to do the imposition of a pdf before you send it to the printer. I used the plug-in a lot for documents we sent to a Xerox Docutech. The plug in is a bit expensive, but we calculated that it paid for itself in a few jobs. Manually laying out the pages for higher page counts is extremely difficult to do. Hope this helps! Terri > From: lindag at techcomplus.com > To: framers at lists.frameusers.com > Subject: Fine tuning pagination > Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:41:22 -0600 > > Framers, > > I'm working on a book for a commercial publishing house that prints in > 16-page signatures. I've not done anything quite like this before. > > I need to get the book to fit into an exact multiple of 16 pages. I've done > basic pagination control with my paragraph styles and with a page break > paragraph style, but this calls for greater fine tuning. > > I'd appreciate advice, tips, whatever, on how to fine tune pagination to > meet this need. > > Thanks in advance! > > ~ > Linda G. Gallagher > TechCom Plus, LLC > lindag at techcomplus dot com > www.techcomplus.com > 303-450-9076 or 800-500-3144 > User guides, online help, FrameMaker and > WebWorks ePublisher templates > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as tjs_badger at hotmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/tjs_badger%40hotmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. _ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
