InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Alan Litchfield]

Gotta say, after Peter's run through, that I am considering trying out  
CS3 on an existing project that is mostly gnarly tables, cross  
references, and list and index markers.

While it sounds great that ID is now able to perform most core  
functions it is with concern that some are only available with the  
addition of plug-ins. How will this affect backward compatibility for  
old and archived files?

The backward compatibility in FM is one of its greatest strengths, for  
instance I have in the last couple of days been doing stuff with FM  
files I have not seen for 8 years. FM has no problem with working with  
these but I doubt that ID+various plug-ins would behave as nicely. One  
of the great pleasures of flicking QuarkXPress off the system was also  
saying good bye to the incessant problems I had with Xtensions'  
missing warnings, I would not want to put myself back into that  
situation with ID. On the other extreme, that is why I also produce a  
fair amount in LaTeX - for the fact that if all else fails, it is only  
text but ID is not.

Cheers
Alan

--
Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Alan Litchfield]

Neither ;)

Education, policy and government planning documentation. Remember  
there are many types of documentation to which FM is applied beyond  
tech writing and marketing.

Cheers
Alan


On 16/09/2008, at 9:31 AM, Matt Sullivan wrote:

> If the material is tech in nature, leave it in Frame!!!
>
> If the material is marketing collateral, (fully) enjoy the flex and
> sophisticated typography that ID will give you.
>
> -Matt
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Alan  
> Litchfield
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:18 PM
> To: peter at knowhowpro.com
> Cc: framers
> Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker
>
> Gotta say, after Peter's run through, that I am considering trying out
> CS3 on an existing project that is mostly gnarly tables, cross
> references, and list and index markers.
>
> While it sounds great that ID is now able to perform most core
> functions it is with concern that some are only available with the
> addition of plug-ins. How will this affect backward compatibility for
> old and archived files?
>
> The backward compatibility in FM is one of its greatest strengths, for
> instance I have in the last couple of days been doing stuff with FM
> files I have not seen for 8 years. FM has no problem with working with
> these but I doubt that ID+various plug-ins would behave as nicely. One
> of the great pleasures of flicking QuarkXPress off the system was also
> saying good bye to the incessant problems I had with Xtensions'
> missing warnings, I would not want to put myself back into that
> situation with ID. On the other extreme, that is why I also produce a
> fair amount in LaTeX - for the fact that if all else fails, it is only
> text but ID is not.
>
> Cheers
> Alan
>
> --
> Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
> AlphaByte
> PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
> http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as matt at grafixtraining.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/matt%40grafixtraining.co
> m
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

--
Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Alan Litchfield]

Huh???

On 16/09/2008, at 9:49 AM, Matt Sullivan wrote:

> Yes, we all specialize...
>
> And of all the "A" personalities I know (including myself) we're all
> indispensable and unique.
>
> If you are documenting or teaching-FM
> If you are selling or worried about how it looks on a frame on the  
> wall-ID
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Alan Litchfield [mailto:alan at alphabyte.co.nz]
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:43 PM
> To: Matt Sullivan
> Cc: peter at knowhowpro.com; 'framers'
> Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker
>
> Neither ;)
>
> Education, policy and government planning documentation. Remember
> there are many types of documentation to which FM is applied beyond
> tech writing and marketing.
>
> Cheers
> Alan
>
>
> On 16/09/2008, at 9:31 AM, Matt Sullivan wrote:
>
>> If the material is tech in nature, leave it in Frame!!!
>>
>> If the material is marketing collateral, (fully) enjoy the flex and
>> sophisticated typography that ID will give you.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
>> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Alan
>> Litchfield
>> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:18 PM
>> To: peter at knowhowpro.com
>> Cc: framers
>> Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker
>>
>> Gotta say, after Peter's run through, that I am considering trying  
>> out
>> CS3 on an existing project that is mostly gnarly tables, cross
>> references, and list and index markers.
>>
>> While it sounds great that ID is now able to perform most core
>> functions it is with concern that some are only available with the
>> addition of plug-ins. How will this affect backward compatibility for
>> old and archived files?
>>
>> The backward compatibility in FM is one of its greatest strengths,  
>> for
>> instance I have in the last couple of days been doing stuff with FM
>> files I have not seen for 8 years. FM has no problem with working  
>> with
>> these but I doubt that ID+various plug-ins would behave as nicely.  
>> One
>> of the great pleasures of flicking QuarkXPress off the system was  
>> also
>> saying good bye to the incessant problems I had with Xtensions'
>> missing warnings, I would not want to put myself back into that
>> situation with ID. On the other extreme, that is why I also produce a
>> fair amount in LaTeX - for the fact that if all else fails, it is  
>> only
>> text but ID is not.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Alan
>>
>> --
>> Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
>> AlphaByte
>> PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
>> http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to Framers as matt at grafixtraining.com.
>>
>> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>>
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit
>>
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/matt%40grafixtraining.co
>> m
>>
>> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
> --
> Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
> AlphaByte
> PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
> http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
>
>
>
>

--
Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[mulholland4]

Hi Peter,
 I sent an email to Art and received a very good reply which I think answers
all of my questions (I have pasted them in the lower section of this email.)
 My original reason for asking about InDesign as a replacement for
Framemaker was that I have been asked by a new manager to dispose of
Framemaker and transfer all writing tasks, 700 page User Guides, and various
other docs to InDesign. The problem I am worried about is that we use a lot
of cross references throughout the chapters and books and have a large
fairly comprehensive Index. I also use conditional text to output several
versions of the same doc. Can this be done in InDesign? And what about
generating a help system for InDesign, is it possible?

I believe that Art answered all of these questions, but feel free to make
any other comments or suggestions.

Thanks for the help
Mulholand

Here are Art's comments:
<< I've moved books & files from FM to InDesign CS3, and unless there's
something else going on that the manager didn't share with you or you
didn't present in your email, this is going to be a Bad Idea of large
tarbaby proportions...

InDesign is great for short docs, or even books, that require a lot of
individual formatting and exceptions to the base template or master
pages. It was designed as a PageMaker replacement, and it fulfills
that role very nicely. It's a nice program.

Frame was designed to handle large books, multiple documents, and doc
sets that basically use the same type or set of page layouts in order
to produce a uniform look and feel. Essentially the 700 page User
Guide scenario that you present.

You can do the conversion (maybe -- depends on the input) by using a
third party plug in, or by writing out FM files as RTF and importing
them into ID. And you're unlikely to be able to bring in graphics
transparently.

But you're going to lose lots of functionality that's going to be made
up by vastly increasing man hours. You mentioned a few: conditional
text, inter-book cross refs, decent indexing, especially indexing that
spans books or volumes, and the ability to go to online help. Some of
this may have changed since I last had to do this about 6 months ago,
but it'd only change because a third party brought out a better ID
plug in. Which would cost money and be another company to deal with
for support and updates and integration.

Unless you guys have money and manpower to burn, I'd try to find out
the reasoning behind the proposed switch before you try to
implement There's a chance that the manager is way behind the
times and still listening to the FM is dead rumors... which were bogus
a few years or so ago and are more so now. FM is Adobe's XML editor
choice, and they're pouring resources into it.

>From what you've mentioned, implementing the Tech Comm Suite would be
a better solution than ID. >>

Fin

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:51 PM, mulholland4  wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>  I sent an email to Art and received a very good reply which I think answers
> all of my questions (I have pasted them in the lower section of this email.)
>  My original reason for asking about InDesign as a replacement for
> Framemaker was that I have been asked by a new manager to dispose of
> Framemaker and transfer all writing tasks, 700 page User Guides, and various
> other docs to InDesign. The problem I am worried about is that we use a lot
> of cross references throughout the chapters and books and have a large
> fairly comprehensive Index.

I reviewed the DTP Tools Cross-Reference plug-in for InDesign CS2 and
CS3 for InDesign Magazine around last December's issue. You'd have to
buy the issue to see the whole review, but very briefly: It's on par
with FM's cross-reference ability, and in some ways a little better.

There's also a free cross-reference script that creates
page-number-only references, and a commercial cross-reference tool
from Virginia Systems that I didn't test.

> I also use conditional text to output several
> versions of the same doc. Can this be done in InDesign?

ID CS3 has no conditional text, and I'm not aware of a third-party
tool that offers it. The usual workaround is to create the different
versions of content on different layers, and show or hide them as
needed. It's not a good solution for content, product, or audience
variations in a single language, because you really are maintaining
multiple copies of the common content, and have to be careful to avoid
introducing unwanted differences when editing. This is much the same
effort as maintaining one separate file for each version.

For multiple languages, where all content, or at least all text
content, is translated in each variation, layers can work. Text wrap
(FM's Text Runaround object property) is smart about working through
layers, so showing/hiding different language layers with careful
planning may simplify handling graphics in each language) and, BTW, ID
wraps text around all sides of an object if you want, not just three
sides as FM does.

However, another approach is to use ID's XML ability to filter
marked-up XML content. Mostly XML is being used with ID for
variable-data publishing, and other automated production.

There's no dedicated DITA support in ID.

> And what about
> generating a help system for InDesign, is it possible?

There's no tightly-bound partner for help from ID, though again its
XML export is one way to implement help coupled with other third-party
tools. RTF export may be another possibility. I haven't heard anyone
claim to be doing this. Yet.

>
> I believe that Art answered all of these questions, but feel free to make
> any other comments or suggestions.
>
> Thanks for the help
> Mulholand
>
> Here are Art's comments:
> << I've moved books & files from FM to InDesign CS3, and unless there's
> something else going on that the manager didn't share with you or you
> didn't present in your email, this is going to be a Bad Idea of large
> tarbaby proportions...
>
> InDesign is great for short docs, or even books, that require a lot of
> individual formatting and exceptions to the base template or master
> pages. It was designed as a PageMaker replacement, and it fulfills
> that role very nicely. It's a nice program.
>
> Frame was designed to handle large books, multiple documents, and doc
> sets that basically use the same type or set of page layouts in order
> to produce a uniform look and feel. Essentially the 700 page User
> Guide scenario that you present.

ID has running header/footer variables, user-defined variables, master
pages (even master pages based on other master pages), multiple
numbering streams (1.1.1.1, and 1,A,ii,b, etc) for lists, figure
captions, etc, as FM has. Page and chapter numbering, footnotes, and
across-file numbering in books, are the same, but ID also can make
multi-page spreads with appropriate page numbers on left and right (or
on spreads of as many as ten pages) - FM can't. This isn't a common
need in technical docs, so it's not a biggie.

ID CS3 books are better than FM's in some ways, the same in some
others, and worse in a few others. ID book files are lists of files,
and instructions for processing them, like FM books. FM's cool feature
of showing filename or first paragraph content in the book list is a
good tool that ID lacks, but ID's Pages panel (like PageMaker's, if
you know PM) shows thumbnail views of the pages in the current file,
as well as identifying the master pages used on each page; you can
identify chapter-opener page thumbnails easily, which is mostly what
showing the first paragraph feature does. You can rearrange ID pages
by drag and drop (which isn't a good thing to do with one single long
text flow, but is useful for page-by-page layouts that need 

CORRECTION Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

Ooops! I just caught a typo, an omission that reverses the meaning.
It's embedded in the body below, marked with *



>Thanks Peter!

You're welcome.

> i'll take some time to go over this carefully, but this will be a great help 
> to me!
> cheers
> Mulholland




On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Peter Gold  wrote:
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:51 PM, mulholland4  wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>  I sent an email to Art and received a very good reply which I think answers
> all of my questions (I have pasted them in the lower section of this email.)
>  My original reason for asking about InDesign as a replacement for
> Framemaker was that I have been asked by a new manager to dispose of
> Framemaker and transfer all writing tasks, 700 page User Guides, and various
> other docs to InDesign. The problem I am worried about is that we use a lot
> of cross references throughout the chapters and books and have a large
> fairly comprehensive Index.

I reviewed the DTP Tools Cross-Reference plug-in for InDesign CS2 and
CS3 for InDesign Magazine around last December's issue. You'd have to
buy the issue to see the whole review, but very briefly: It's on par
with FM's cross-reference ability, and in some ways a little better.

There's also a free cross-reference script that creates
page-number-only references, and a commercial cross-reference tool
from Virginia Systems that I didn't test.

> I also use conditional text to output several
> versions of the same doc. Can this be done in InDesign?

ID CS3 has no conditional text, and I'm not aware of a third-party
tool that offers it. The usual workaround is to create the different
versions of content on different layers, and show or hide them as
needed. It's not a good solution for content, product, or audience
variations in a single language, because you really are maintaining
multiple copies of the common content, and have to be careful to avoid
introducing unwanted differences when editing. This is much the same
effort as maintaining one separate file for each version.

For multiple languages, where all content, or at least all text
content, is translated in each variation, layers can work. Text wrap
(FM's Text Runaround object property) is smart about working through
layers, so showing/hiding different language layers with careful
planning may simplify handling graphics in each language) and, BTW, ID
wraps text around all sides of an object if you want, not just three
sides as FM does.

However, another approach is to use ID's XML ability to filter
marked-up XML content. Mostly XML is being used with ID for
variable-data publishing, and other automated production.

There's no dedicated DITA support in ID.

> And what about
> generating a help system for InDesign, is it possible?

There's no tightly-bound partner for help from ID, though again its
XML export is one way to implement help coupled with other third-party
tools. RTF export may be another possibility. I haven't heard anyone
claim to be doing this. Yet.

>
> I believe that Art answered all of these questions, but feel free to make
> any other comments or suggestions.
>
> Thanks for the help
> Mulholand
>
> Here are Art's comments:
> << I've moved books & files from FM to InDesign CS3, and unless there's
> something else going on that the manager didn't share with you or you
> didn't present in your email, this is going to be a Bad Idea of large
> tarbaby proportions...
>
> InDesign is great for short docs, or even books, that require a lot of
> individual formatting and exceptions to the base template or master
> pages. It was designed as a PageMaker replacement, and it fulfills
> that role very nicely. It's a nice program.
>
> Frame was designed to handle large books, multiple documents, and doc
> sets that basically use the same type or set of page layouts in order
> to produce a uniform look and feel. Essentially the 700 page User
> Guide scenario that you present.

ID has running header/footer variables, user-defined variables, master
pages (even master pages based on other master pages), multiple
numbering streams (1.1.1.1, and 1,A,ii,b, etc) for lists, figure
captions, etc, as FM has. Page and chapter numbering, footnotes, and
across-file numbering in books, are the same, but ID also can make
multi-page spreads with appropriate page numbers on left and right (or
on spreads of as many as ten pages) - FM can't. This isn't a common
need in technical docs, so it's not a biggie.

ID CS3 books are better than FM's in some ways, the same in some
others, and worse in a few others. ID book files are lists of files,
and instructions for processing them, like FM books. FM's cool feature
of showing filename or first paragraph content in the book list is a
good tool that ID lacks, but ID's Pages panel (like PageMaker's, if
you know PM) shows thumbnail views of the pages in the curr

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Matt Sullivan]

If the material is tech in nature, leave it in Frame!!!

If the material is marketing collateral, (fully) enjoy the flex and
sophisticated typography that ID will give you.

-Matt

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Alan Litchfield
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:18 PM
To: peter at knowhowpro.com
Cc: framers
Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Gotta say, after Peter's run through, that I am considering trying out  
CS3 on an existing project that is mostly gnarly tables, cross  
references, and list and index markers.

While it sounds great that ID is now able to perform most core  
functions it is with concern that some are only available with the  
addition of plug-ins. How will this affect backward compatibility for  
old and archived files?

The backward compatibility in FM is one of its greatest strengths, for  
instance I have in the last couple of days been doing stuff with FM  
files I have not seen for 8 years. FM has no problem with working with  
these but I doubt that ID+various plug-ins would behave as nicely. One  
of the great pleasures of flicking QuarkXPress off the system was also  
saying good bye to the incessant problems I had with Xtensions'  
missing warnings, I would not want to put myself back into that  
situation with ID. On the other extreme, that is why I also produce a  
fair amount in LaTeX - for the fact that if all else fails, it is only  
text but ID is not.

Cheers
Alan

--
Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz




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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Matt Sullivan]

Yes, we all specialize...

And of all the "A" personalities I know (including myself) we're all
indispensable and unique.

If you are documenting or teaching-FM
If you are selling or worried about how it looks on a frame on the wall-ID

-Original Message-
From: Alan Litchfield [mailto:a...@alphabyte.co.nz] 
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:43 PM
To: Matt Sullivan
Cc: peter at knowhowpro.com; 'framers'
Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Neither ;)

Education, policy and government planning documentation. Remember  
there are many types of documentation to which FM is applied beyond  
tech writing and marketing.

Cheers
Alan


On 16/09/2008, at 9:31 AM, Matt Sullivan wrote:

> If the material is tech in nature, leave it in Frame!!!
>
> If the material is marketing collateral, (fully) enjoy the flex and
> sophisticated typography that ID will give you.
>
> -Matt
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Alan  
> Litchfield
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:18 PM
> To: peter at knowhowpro.com
> Cc: framers
> Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker
>
> Gotta say, after Peter's run through, that I am considering trying out
> CS3 on an existing project that is mostly gnarly tables, cross
> references, and list and index markers.
>
> While it sounds great that ID is now able to perform most core
> functions it is with concern that some are only available with the
> addition of plug-ins. How will this affect backward compatibility for
> old and archived files?
>
> The backward compatibility in FM is one of its greatest strengths, for
> instance I have in the last couple of days been doing stuff with FM
> files I have not seen for 8 years. FM has no problem with working with
> these but I doubt that ID+various plug-ins would behave as nicely. One
> of the great pleasures of flicking QuarkXPress off the system was also
> saying good bye to the incessant problems I had with Xtensions'
> missing warnings, I would not want to put myself back into that
> situation with ID. On the other extreme, that is why I also produce a
> fair amount in LaTeX - for the fact that if all else fails, it is only
> text but ID is not.
>
> Cheers
> Alan
>
> --
> Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
> AlphaByte
> PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
> http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as matt at grafixtraining.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
>
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/matt%40grafixtraining.co
> m
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

--
Alan Litchfield MBus(Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland, NZ. 1140
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Robert Rogge]

A drop in the pond on this runaway thread -

For the documents I produce, there is no way that InDesign could handle the
work of Frame. That would be a real nightmare. In other words, they
*cannot*do each other´s jobs.

I tend to be a meticulous user of Frame, and all of those features missing
from ID are key components to my workflow, and were they lost, I seriously
doubt that my documents could be managed effectively. Further, it goes
beyond these basics and when you start getting into the details, you find
similar problems.

Variables, equations, and conditional text are *really, really
powerful*tools if you just develop the right work habits. At first it
might seem a
pain in the ass, but once you get into the flow (and with some planning),
you start saving time incrementally.

Cheers,

Robert

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Seraphim Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Well said, Jeremy!


 Seraphim



 On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy H. Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I hardly see how your request is related to natural
  justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
  activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
  members of your family.
 
  rant
 
  Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
  the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
  No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
  *family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?
 
  Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
  it's called the Honor System.  It works.  It's the only
  method we could find that does not interfere with usage
  by our licensed customers.  We trust you.
 
  Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
  system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
  of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
  get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
  your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.
 
  You might think that with such an arrangement, people
  would never buy a second license in the same company.
  Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
  colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
  license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
  If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
  them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
  than about them.
 
  /rant
 
  -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.omsys.com/
  ___
 
 
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-- 
Robert Rogge
93-423-1784
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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Robert Rogge]

A drop in the pond on this runaway thread -

For the documents I produce, there is no way that InDesign could handle the
work of Frame. That would be a real nightmare. In other words, they
*cannot*do each other?s jobs.

I tend to be a meticulous user of Frame, and all of those features missing
from ID are key components to my workflow, and were they lost, I seriously
doubt that my documents could be managed effectively. Further, it goes
beyond these basics and when you start getting into the details, you find
similar problems.

Variables, equations, and conditional text are *really, really
powerful*tools if you just develop the right work habits. At first it
might seem a
pain in the ass, but once you get into the flow (and with some planning),
you start saving time incrementally.

Cheers,

Robert

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Seraphim Larsen wrote:

> Well said, Jeremy!
>
>
> Seraphim
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy H. Griffith  >wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
> >
> > >I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
> > >justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
> > >activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
> > >members of your family.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
> > the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
> > No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
> > *family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?
> >
> > Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
> > it's called the "Honor System".  It works.  It's the only
> > method we could find that does not interfere with usage
> > by our licensed customers.  We trust you.
> >
> > Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
> > system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
> > of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
> > get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
> > your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.
> >
> > You might think that with such an arrangement, people
> > would never buy a second license in the same company.
> > Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
> > colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
> > license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
> > If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
> > them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
> > than about them.
> >
> > 
> >
> > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
> >http://www.omsys.com/
> > ___
> >
> >
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as robertwrogge at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 
Robert Rogge
93-423-1784

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Robert:

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Robert Rogge  
wrote:
> A drop in the pond on this runaway thread -
>
> For the documents I produce, there is no way that InDesign could handle the
> work of Frame. That would be a real nightmare. In other words, they
> *cannot*do each other?s jobs.
>
> I tend to be a meticulous user of Frame, and all of those features missing
> from ID are key components to my workflow, and were they lost, I seriously
> doubt that my documents could be managed effectively. Further, it goes
> beyond these basics and when you start getting into the details, you find
> similar problems.
>
> Variables, equations, and conditional text are *really, really
> powerful*tools if you just develop the right work habits.

Are there any other features and tools that you rely on in FM, that
are missing in ID? Have you posted ID feature requests to the official
request site: http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

You never know when or if your wishes will come true.

> At first it
> might seem a
> pain in the ass, but once you get into the flow (and with some planning),
> you start saving time incrementally.

I agree that investing in the effort to learn things you need has its
share of pain that's usually repaid by being to work efficiently and
accurately.

However, from your statement, it's a little ambiguous which pain
you're referring to. Are you saying that the investment in pain is in
planning and the learning curve in FM? Or is the pain in investing the
effort in ID?

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Seraphim Larsen]

Well said, Jeremy!


Seraphim



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy H. Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I hardly see how your request is related to natural
 justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
 activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
 members of your family.

 rant

 Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
 the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
 No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
 *family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?

 Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
 it's called the Honor System.  It works.  It's the only
 method we could find that does not interfere with usage
 by our licensed customers.  We trust you.

 Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
 system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
 of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
 get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
 your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.

 You might think that with such an arrangement, people
 would never buy a second license in the same company.
 Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
 colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
 license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
 If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
 them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
 than about them.

 /rant

 -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.omsys.com/
 ___


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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Seraphim Larsen]

Well said, Jeremy!


Seraphim



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
>
> >I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
> >justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
> >activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
> >members of your family.
>
> 
>
> Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
> the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
> No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
> *family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?
>
> Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
> it's called the "Honor System".  It works.  It's the only
> method we could find that does not interfere with usage
> by our licensed customers.  We trust you.
>
> Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
> system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
> of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
> get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
> your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.
>
> You might think that with such an arrangement, people
> would never buy a second license in the same company.
> Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
> colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
> license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
> If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
> them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
> than about them.
>
> 
>
> -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
>http://www.omsys.com/
> ___
>
>

Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Michael Müller-Hillebrand]

Am 12.09.2008 um 00:17 schrieb Peter Gold:

 Hi, Dov:

 On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker,  
 InDesign
 was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a replacement for  
 FrameMaker.

 Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been  
 incorporated into
 InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured  
 features
 (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc.,  
 InDesign
 won't satisfy your needs.

 InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
 automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
 and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?

Both products can be used to *publish* XML documents, with differences  
in details.

Only FrameMaker provides a validating *authoring* environment for long  
XML-structured documents.

- Michael


--
___
Michael Müller-Hillebrand: Dokumentations-Technologie
Adobe Certified Expert, FrameMaker
Lösungen und Training, FrameScript, XML/XSL, Unicode
http://cap-studio.de/ -- Tel. +49 (9131) 28747



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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to natural
justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Quatro
 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM

 Hi Graeme,

 FrameMaker now has activation with version 8.

 Rick Quatro
 Carmen Publishing Inc
 585-659-8267
 www.frameexpert.com

  One really maddening issue is activation. A single-user license
  only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
  desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
  going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
  third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
 
  Graeme Forbes
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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[John Sgammato]

Adobe (and many other companies) must learn that many writers use products on 
different computers at different times, and their approach puts hurdles in the 
way of honest customers. There must be a technological way to prevent the same 
application from being used by two different people at the same time. That is 
the solution, not a policy that fails to keep up with the needs of the customer 
base.
 
ymmv, etc
john



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Dov Isaacs
Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 11:46 AM
To: framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to natural
justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Quatro
 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM

 Hi Graeme,

 FrameMaker now has activation with version 8.

 Rick Quatro
 Carmen Publishing Inc
 585-659-8267
 www.frameexpert.com

  One really maddening issue is activation. A single-user license
  only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
  desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
  going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
  third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
 
  Graeme Forbes
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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Kelly McDaniel]

Respectfuilly, 

That is the solution, not a policy that fails adapt to today's
technological reality...regards, Kelly.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:48 AM
To: Dov Isaacs; framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Adobe (and many other companies) must learn that many writers use
products on different computers at different times, and their approach
puts hurdles in the way of honest customers. There must be a
technological way to prevent the same application from being used by two
different people at the same time. That is the solution, not a policy
that fails to keep up with the needs of the customer base.
 
ymmv, etc
john



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Dov Isaacs
Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 11:46 AM
To: framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to natural
justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Quatro
 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM

 Hi Graeme,

 FrameMaker now has activation with version 8.

 Rick Quatro
 Carmen Publishing Inc
 585-659-8267
 www.frameexpert.com

  One really maddening issue is activation. A single-user license
  only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
  desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
  going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
  third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
 
  Graeme Forbes
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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

FWIW, the current implementation actually allows more than two installations,
but limits activation to two systems. Conceivably, you could deactivate the
first system, activate the third, and when done with the third, deactivate
it and reactivate the first.

Sure there is a way of assuring that a particular copy of the application
is not used by more than one person at a time, but would you want a requirement
that you be on-line with a link to Adobe at all times when using our products?
I know I couldn't work that way! The other problem is that such a scheme (or a
modified version of same) would effectively allow a United States-based user
to run the software during the day in the United States and a comrade in India
to run the same software on a different machine during their work day. Clearly,
that is not the intent of the EULA for this product.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: John Sgammato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 8:48 AM

 Adobe (and many other companies) must learn that many writers use products on 
 different computers at
 different times, and their approach puts hurdles in the way of honest 
 customers. There must be a
 technological way to prevent the same application from being used by two 
 different people at the same
 time. That is the solution, not a policy that fails to keep up with the needs 
 of the customer base.

 ymmv, etc
 john

 

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Dov Isaacs
 Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 11:46 AM
 To: framers; Graeme R Forbes
 Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



 Graeme,

 Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
 in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
 activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
 those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to natural
 justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
 activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
 members of your family.

 - Dov

  -Original Message-
  From: Rick Quatro
  Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM
 
  Hi Graeme,
 
  FrameMaker now has activation with version 8.
 
  Rick Quatro
  Carmen Publishing Inc
  585-659-8267
  www.frameexpert.com
 
   One really maddening issue is activation. A single-user license
   only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
   desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
   going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
   third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
  
   Graeme Forbes
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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[martin . smith]

Regarding the need to run Frame on multiple computers and manage  
licenses: what about running Frame from a Citrix server? Is this an  
option that Adobe supports for large installations?

Just curious,

Martin

Martin R. Smith
www.golehtek.com

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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Kelly McDaniel]

As someone who has faced that issue at a former job (users running our
single-license pkg on Citrix) I would think not. As I recall, the
well-written EULA contains language that prohibits serving a single-seat
license to multiple clients...Kelly.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:13 PM
To: framers
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Regarding the need to run Frame on multiple computers and manage  
licenses: what about running Frame from a Citrix server? Is this an  
option that Adobe supports for large installations?

Just curious,

Martin

Martin R. Smith
www.golehtek.com

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Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I hardly see how your request is related to natural
justice any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

rant

Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
*family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?

Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
it's called the Honor System.  It works.  It's the only
method we could find that does not interfere with usage
by our licensed customers.  We trust you.

Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.

You might think that with such an arrangement, people
would never buy a second license in the same company.
Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
than about them.

/rant

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.omsys.com/
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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Michael Müller-Hillebrand]

Am 12.09.2008 um 00:17 schrieb Peter Gold:

> Hi, Dov:
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
>> To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker,  
>> InDesign
>> was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a "replacement for  
>> FrameMaker."
>>
>> Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been  
>> incorporated into
>> InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured  
>> features
>> (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc.,  
>> InDesign
>> won't satisfy your needs.
>
> InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
> automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
> and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?

Both products can be used to *publish* XML documents, with differences  
in details.

Only FrameMaker provides a validating *authoring* environment for long  
XML-structured documents.

- Michael


--
___
Michael M?ller-Hillebrand: Dokumentations-Technologie
Adobe Certified Expert, FrameMaker
L?sungen und Training, FrameScript, XML/XSL, Unicode
 -- Tel. +49 (9131) 28747

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Graeme R Forbes]

Well, I've started to move from FM to ID, so that I do not remain  
forever stuck with G5 hardware and Tiger. It's with immense  
reluctance that I reward Adobe with more purchases after they dropped  
MacFM...no, let's not get started on that.

The ID learning curve is much steeper. I bought FM3 in 1992/3 and  
immediately started writing a book in it, picking things up as I went  
along  (need an idea for Xmas presents? -- Modern Logic by Graeme  
Forbes -- every home should have one). I don't think you could  do  
that with ID -- hors categorie compared to category 3, Alpe d'Huez vs  
the foothills of the Jura.

Anyway, I've done a few short docs, and am slowly, with many  
expletives deleted, getting the hang of it. I don't use the features  
Dov mentioned -- structure, conditional text, equation editor -- but  
maybe you can get a lot of FM functionality with 3rd party plug-ins.  
For me, the lack of xrefs was a deal-breaker until I discovered that  
DTP Tools, an FM-knowledgeable company, has a plug-in that appears to  
cover, or even improve on, FM's functionality. It's 99 euros, so  
assuming they bill you in euros, the dollar price is steadily  
dropping at the moment.

One thing that bugs me are the ludicrous file sizes. A two-page  
abstract, entirely text, came in at 1.2MB. An FM equivalent would be  
around 28K, which was what the pdf I made from the 1.2MB file also  
came in at. I haven't been able to find anything online about why the  
files are so big or what, if anything, you can do about it (issues  
about graphics are irrelevant in my case).

An attractive feature of ID for me is that it's got correctly  
implemented footnoting.  No more text frames in anchored frames and  
trial-and-error guessing about how much to cut to get the remainder  
to jump back to the right page, then having to redo it all when you  
realize you've made an appalling error on p.2 and fixing it changes  
all subsequent page breaks.

So: although ID isn't specifically intended for writing technical  
documents, nothing appears to make it irrational to use it for that.  
Make a list of what FM features are important/indispensable, and  
check that ID can do the same. Then go to Configure Plug-ins and  
disable all the ones that pertain to the production of eye-candy only.

One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license  
only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home  
desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm  
going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a  
third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.

It would be very useful if there were a book, or even if someone just  
had personal notes they were willing to share, about ID from the FM- 
user's point of view: the sort of thing that would say, you can do  
such-and-such in FM easily enough, here's a sequence of steps in ID  
that will also accomplish it.

Graeme Forbes

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Amnon Yaish]

Graeme,

Are you using any xml / structured functionality on ID ? Does ID have
anything comparable to a FM edd ?

Amnon.



Graeme R Forbes (Graeme.Forbes at Colorado.EDU) said on 12/09/08 at 2:18 :

>Well, I've started to move from FM to ID, so that I do not remain  
>forever stuck with G5 hardware and Tiger. It's with immense  
>reluctance that I reward Adobe with more purchases after they dropped  
>MacFM...no, let's not get started on that.
>
>The ID learning curve is much steeper. I bought FM3 in 1992/3 and  
>immediately started writing a book in it, picking things up as I went  
>along  (need an idea for Xmas presents? -- Modern Logic by Graeme  
>Forbes -- every home should have one). I don't think you could  do  
>that with ID -- hors categorie compared to category 3, Alpe d'Huez vs  
>the foothills of the Jura.
>
>Anyway, I've done a few short docs, and am slowly, with many  
>expletives deleted, getting the hang of it. I don't use the features  
>Dov mentioned -- structure, conditional text, equation editor -- but  
>maybe you can get a lot of FM functionality with 3rd party plug-ins.  
>For me, the lack of xrefs was a deal-breaker until I discovered that  
>DTP Tools, an FM-knowledgeable company, has a plug-in that appears to  
>cover, or even improve on, FM's functionality. It's 99 euros, so  
>assuming they bill you in euros, the dollar price is steadily  
>dropping at the moment.
>
>One thing that bugs me are the ludicrous file sizes. A two-page  
>abstract, entirely text, came in at 1.2MB. An FM equivalent would be  
>around 28K, which was what the pdf I made from the 1.2MB file also  
>came in at. I haven't been able to find anything online about why the  
>files are so big or what, if anything, you can do about it (issues  
>about graphics are irrelevant in my case).
>
>An attractive feature of ID for me is that it's got correctly  
>implemented footnoting.  No more text frames in anchored frames and  
>trial-and-error guessing about how much to cut to get the remainder  
>to jump back to the right page, then having to redo it all when you  
>realize you've made an appalling error on p.2 and fixing it changes  
>all subsequent page breaks.
>
>So: although ID isn't specifically intended for writing technical  
>documents, nothing appears to make it irrational to use it for that.  
>Make a list of what FM features are important/indispensable, and  
>check that ID can do the same. Then go to Configure Plug-ins and  
>disable all the ones that pertain to the production of eye-candy only.
>
>One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license  
>only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home  
>desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm  
>going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a  
>third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
>
>It would be very useful if there were a book, or even if someone just  
>had personal notes they were willing to share, about ID from the FM- 
>user's point of view: the sort of thing that would say, you can do  
>such-and-such in FM easily enough, here's a sequence of steps in ID  
>that will also accomplish it.
>
>Graeme Forbes
>
>
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>
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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Graeme,

FrameMaker now has "activation" with version 8.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc
585-659-8267
www.frameexpert.com

> One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license  
> only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home  
> desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm  
> going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a  
> third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
> 
> Graeme Forbes

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Michael Müller-Hillebrand]

Am 12.09.2008 um 10:44 schrieb Amnon Yaish:

> Does ID have
> anything comparable to a FM edd ?


A FrameMaker EDD is: validating structure rules combined with context- 
aware, automatic, ready-for-print formatting.

InDesign has nothing like that.

If you (just) use an EDD to format XML documents for publishing (not  
editing nor authoring!), you can achieve the same effect in InDesign  
(although implemented totally different) by using an XSL  
transformation to add special attributes to the XML document which  
instruct InDesign to select certain formats. Further thing are  
possible using XML rules. But _- again -- that only applies to mere  
publishing tasks.

- Michael M?ller-Hillebrand


--
___
Michael M?ller-Hillebrand: Dokumentations-Technologie
Adobe Certified Expert, FrameMaker
L?sungen und Training, FrameScript, XML/XSL, Unicode
 -- Tel. +49 (9131) 28747

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

As interesting as the thread on XML is (and it is), the OP didn't ask
anything about, or related to, XML. So we're experiencing some basic
thread drift.

He's asking about moving from a technical publishing tool to a
design-driven tool, but not providing any details on why, or what
features he uses, or needs, or any other useful details.

So other than saying that "Yes, you can do it, but unless you require
something that ID offers that FM doesn't it probably isn't worth the
bother," it's really difficult to go further than that. IMHO, of
course.

Art


Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358



On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Michael M?ller-Hillebrand
 wrote:
> Am 12.09.2008 um 10:44 schrieb Amnon Yaish:
>
>> Does ID have
>> anything comparable to a FM edd ?
>
>
> A FrameMaker EDD is: validating structure rules combined with context-
> aware, automatic, ready-for-print formatting.
>
> InDesign has nothing like that.
>
> If you (just) use an EDD to format XML documents for publishing (not
> editing nor authoring!), you can achieve the same effect in InDesign
> (although implemented totally different) by using an XSL
> transformation to add special attributes to the XML document which
> instruct InDesign to select certain formats. Further thing are
> possible using XML rules. But _- again -- that only applies to mere
> publishing tasks.
>
> - Michael M?ller-Hillebrand
>
>
> --
> ___
> Michael M?ller-Hillebrand: Dokumentations-Technologie
> Adobe Certified Expert, FrameMaker
> L?sungen und Training, FrameScript, XML/XSL, Unicode
>  -- Tel. +49 (9131) 28747
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

This time I agree fully with Art!

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Art Campbell  wrote:
> As interesting as the thread on XML is (and it is), the OP didn't ask
> anything about, or related to, XML. So we're experiencing some basic
> thread drift.
>
> He's asking about moving from a technical publishing tool to a
> design-driven tool, but not providing any details on why, or what
> features he uses, or needs, or any other useful details.
>
> So other than saying that "Yes, you can do it, but unless you require
> something that ID offers that FM doesn't it probably isn't worth the
> bother," it's really difficult to go further than that. IMHO, of
> course.

It would be great to hear from the original poster, as well as anyone
else who's considering making the move, or who is trying to make the
move, about what's absolutely essential, what's been troublesome to
adjust to, and what adjustments were smooth.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[John Sgammato]

I would love to know more from a slightly different angle: I am a sort of 
InDesign "weekend warrior". I use InDesign for some side projects that I do for 
fun. They'd be more fun if I could use more of my FM skills...  For example, I 
guess there is a plug-in that can handle cross references? That would be 
helpful, but I don't know what it is or how to get it. Likewise with variables. 
I'd love to see a FrameMaker User's Guide to InDesign. 
john



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Peter Gold
Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 9:57 AM
To: Art Campbell
Cc: framers
Subject: Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



This time I agree fully with Art!

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Art Campbell  wrote:
> As interesting as the thread on XML is (and it is), the OP didn't ask
> anything about, or related to, XML. So we're experiencing some basic
> thread drift.
>
> He's asking about moving from a technical publishing tool to a
> design-driven tool, but not providing any details on why, or what
> features he uses, or needs, or any other useful details.
>
> So other than saying that "Yes, you can do it, but unless you require
> something that ID offers that FM doesn't it probably isn't worth the
> bother," it's really difficult to go further than that. IMHO, of
> course.

It would be great to hear from the original poster, as well as anyone
else who's considering making the move, or who is trying to make the
move, about what's absolutely essential, what's been troublesome to
adjust to, and what adjustments were smooth.

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Scott White]

This question goes back to what is the final output suppose to be? If  
it is a b-c solution where eye appeal is needed to attract a sale or  
something, then InDesign may be the way to go.
If it is a b-b model where the final output is for information or for  
status reports or something like that, then Framemaker may be the way  
to go. Both can do each others job, but one software solution has  
strengths in one area and the other has strengths in another.

We use both Adobe products with out software. We pick the best product  
to get the job done. You don't use a hammer to screw a bolt and you  
don't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail.


Scott White
Media Production Manager
Implementation Coordinator
210-704-8239
swhite at alamark.com



On Sep 12, 2008, at 8:57 AM, Peter Gold wrote:

> This time I agree fully with Art!
>
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:24 AM, Art Campbell  
>  wrote:
>> As interesting as the thread on XML is (and it is), the OP didn't ask
>> anything about, or related to, XML. So we're experiencing some basic
>> thread drift.
>>
>> He's asking about moving from a technical publishing tool to a
>> design-driven tool, but not providing any details on why, or what
>> features he uses, or needs, or any other useful details.
>>
>> So other than saying that "Yes, you can do it, but unless you require
>> something that ID offers that FM doesn't it probably isn't worth the
>> bother," it's really difficult to go further than that. IMHO, of
>> course.
>
> It would be great to hear from the original poster, as well as anyone
> else who's considering making the move, or who is trying to make the
> move, about what's absolutely essential, what's been troublesome to
> adjust to, and what adjustments were smooth.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
> __
> Peter Gold
> KnowHow ProServices
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as swhite at alamark.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
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> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
>

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Milan Davidovic]

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:59 AM, John Sgammato  
wrote:
> For example, I guess there is a plug-in that can handle cross references? 
> That would be helpful, but I don't know what it is or how to get it.

Try http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=crin (only heard of it,
haven't used it)

-- 
Milan Davidovic
http://altmilan.blogspot.com

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Quatro
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM
>
> Hi Graeme,
>
> FrameMaker now has "activation" with version 8.
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc
> 585-659-8267
> www.frameexpert.com
>
> > One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license
> > only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
> > desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
> > going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
> > third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
> >
> > Graeme Forbes

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[John Sgammato]

Adobe (and many other companies) must learn that many writers use products on 
different computers at different times, and their approach puts hurdles in the 
way of honest customers. There must be a technological way to prevent the same 
application from being used by two different people at the same time. That is 
the solution, not a policy that fails to keep up with the needs of the customer 
base.

ymmv, etc
john



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Dov Isaacs
Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 11:46 AM
To: framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Quatro
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM
>
> Hi Graeme,
>
> FrameMaker now has "activation" with version 8.
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc
> 585-659-8267
> www.frameexpert.com
>
> > One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license
> > only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
> > desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
> > going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
> > third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
> >
> > Graeme Forbes
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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Kelly McDaniel]

Respectfuilly, 

That is the solution, not a policy that fails adapt to today's
technological reality...regards, Kelly.

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Sgammato
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:48 AM
To: Dov Isaacs; framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Adobe (and many other companies) must learn that many writers use
products on different computers at different times, and their approach
puts hurdles in the way of honest customers. There must be a
technological way to prevent the same application from being used by two
different people at the same time. That is the solution, not a policy
that fails to keep up with the needs of the customer base.

ymmv, etc
john



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Dov Isaacs
Sent: Fri 9/12/2008 11:46 AM
To: framers; Graeme R Forbes
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker



Graeme,

Don't count on getting that extra activation. The EULA is quite clear
in terms of how many systems - two - you may simultaneously install and
activate simultaneously and that you may legally only execute on one of
those at any time. I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
members of your family.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Quatro
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:33 AM
>
> Hi Graeme,
>
> FrameMaker now has "activation" with version 8.
>
> Rick Quatro
> Carmen Publishing Inc
> 585-659-8267
> www.frameexpert.com
>
> > One really maddening issue is "activation". A single-user license
> > only lets you have 2 activations, so if like me you have a home
> > desktop, an office desktop, and a laptop, something has to give. I'm
> > going to try to appeal to Adobe's sense of natural justice to get a
> > third activation for my laptop. Pray for me.
> >
> > Graeme Forbes
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InDesign as a replacement for FrameMaker

[David Creamer]

> Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
> InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
> (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
> won't satisfy your needs.

Adobe is going to be unveiling CS4 on Sept. 24--it will be interesting to
see InDesign is going to pick up any more of Frame's feature set.

David Creamer
I.D.E.A.S. - Results-Oriented Training
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer & Expert (since 1995)
Authorized Quark Training Provider (since 1988)
Enfocus, Markzware, FileMaker Certified

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[martin.sm...@golehtek.com]

Regarding the need to run Frame on multiple computers and manage  
licenses: what about running Frame from a Citrix server? Is this an  
option that Adobe supports for large installations?

Just curious,

Martin

Martin R. Smith
www.golehtek.com

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Kelly McDaniel]

As someone who has faced that issue at a former job (users running our
single-license pkg on Citrix) I would think not. As I recall, the
well-written EULA contains language that prohibits serving a single-seat
license to multiple clients...Kelly.

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
martin.smith at golehtek.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:13 PM
To: framers
Subject: RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

Regarding the need to run Frame on multiple computers and manage  
licenses: what about running Frame from a Citrix server? Is this an  
option that Adobe supports for large installations?

Just curious,

Martin

Martin R. Smith
www.golehtek.com

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InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:46:29 -0700, Dov Isaacs  wrote:

>I hardly see how your request is related to "natural
>justice" any more or less than a request to also allow simultaneous
>activation of the same license of FrameMaker on computers used by other
>members of your family.



Really, Dov?  The first complies with the spirit, if not
the letter, of the EULA.  The second is an obvious violation.
No difference???  Unbelievable.  And just how many other
*family members* are going to use Frame, for God's sake?

Mif2Go has a very effective system of license control;
it's called the "Honor System".  It works.  It's the only
method we could find that does not interfere with usage
by our licensed customers.  We trust you.

Impractical, you say?  Wake up!  Pirates can break *any*
system you use in less than an hour.  And broken copies
of Adobe apps are available all over the Web; we must
get fifty spams a day offering them.  So the only folks
your anti-piracy measures affect are your *honest* users.

You might think that with such an arrangement, people
would never buy a second license in the same company.
Why would they, if all they had to do was copy from their
colleague?  Guess what; it doesn't happen.  We have more
license purchases for *additional* copies than for singles.
If you treat people as honest, they *are*.  If you treat
them like criminals, well... you say more about yourself
than about them.



-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[mulholland4]

Hi everyone,
 Has anyone replaced Framemaker with InDesign? Is this possible? What are
the pro's and cons? Does anyone know of an in depth study of this topic.
 Any useful comments would be much appreciated.
 Thanks
Mulholland
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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a replacement for FrameMaker.

Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
(support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
won't satisfy your needs.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: mulholland4
 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:17 AM

 Hi everyone,
  Has anyone replaced Framemaker with InDesign? Is this possible? What are
 the pro's and cons? Does anyone know of an in depth study of this topic.
  Any useful comments would be much appreciated.
  Thanks
 Mulholland
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Re: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Dov:

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
 was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a replacement for FrameMaker.

 Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
 InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
 (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
 won't satisfy your needs.

InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


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RE: InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

The only comment I will make is that the support is very different and
that you cannot simply replace FrameMaker with InDesign if you are using
FrameMaker's structured tools.

- Dov

 -Original Message-
 From: Peter Gold
 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:17 PM

 Hi, Dov:

 On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
  was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a replacement for FrameMaker.
 
  Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
  InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
  (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
  won't satisfy your needs.

 InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
 automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
 and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?

 Regards,

 Peter
___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[mulholland4]

Hi everyone,
 Has anyone replaced Framemaker with InDesign? Is this possible? What are
the pro's and cons? Does anyone know of an in depth study of this topic.
 Any useful comments would be much appreciated.
 Thanks
Mulholland

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a "replacement for FrameMaker."

Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
(support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
won't satisfy your needs.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: mulholland4
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:17 AM
>
> Hi everyone,
>  Has anyone replaced Framemaker with InDesign? Is this possible? What are
> the pro's and cons? Does anyone know of an in depth study of this topic.
>  Any useful comments would be much appreciated.
>  Thanks
> Mulholland

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Dov:

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
> To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
> was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a "replacement for FrameMaker."
>
> Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
> InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
> (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
> won't satisfy your needs.

InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Dov Isaacs]

The only comment I will make is that the support is very different and
that you cannot simply replace FrameMaker with InDesign if you are using
FrameMaker's structured tools.

- Dov

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Gold
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:17 PM
>
> Hi, Dov:
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dov Isaacs  wrote:
> > To be very clear, although designed as a replacement for PageMaker, InDesign
> > was certainly not designed by Adobe to be a "replacement for FrameMaker."
> >
> > Yes, over time a number of FrameMaker features have been incorporated into
> > InDesign, but unless you are using none of FrameMaker's structured features
> > (support for XML and DITA), and conditional text, equations, etc., InDesign
> > won't satisfy your needs.
>
> InDesign's XML abilities are used in database publishing and other
> automated workflows. It also works with DTDs. Can you comment the pros
> and cons of FM's XML support vs. ID's XML support?
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Art Campbell]

Adobe actually presents the case for deciding pretty well.

http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/comparison.html

Art

Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358



On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:17 PM, mulholland4  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>  Has anyone replaced Framemaker with InDesign? Is this possible? What are
> the pro's and cons? Does anyone know of an in depth study of this topic.
>  Any useful comments would be much appreciated.
>  Thanks
> Mulholland
> ___

InDesign as a replacement for Framemaker

[Peter Gold]

I respectfully disagree with Art's conclusion.

While this feature comparison checklist is pretty thorough, and though
it omits some features of both products, it is useful for some
purposes.

However, because it doesn't present a user's experience or evaluation
in using either product for its intended professional work, or for the
other product's intended professional work, by itself, it's not
sufficiently informative for making a decision about adopting one or
the other for one's technical-publishing workflow.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Art Campbell  wrote:
> Adobe actually presents the case for deciding pretty well.
>
> http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/comparison.html
>--

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices