RE: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relativeadvantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 3:11 PM To: Bart Silverstrim Cc: Paul Schmehl; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relativeadvantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)) On 27/04/07, Bart Silverstrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't devote time and resources into being renaissance people. Human intelligence is hardly limited in that regard. While I do not subscribe to the Colin Wilson theory, the vast majority of people contain so little information it is quite shameful, and the less you learn the harder it is to learn. These arguments about ethics show how truly shallow ethicists bother to think. Wikipedia is a daycare centre which has given out a nearly unlimited number of crayons and is now complaining about children drawing on the walls. It is also a fairly plain example of the cliche of the inmates running the asylum. To assign scholarly status and impute scholarly ethics on such a nonsensical rubbish pile is as silly as taking my arguments here as more than the ranting of a deranged keyboard jockey. What that purported professor did is no more unethical than crapping in somone else's toilet, and to claim other- wise is to elevate it to a king's throne. Once wikipedia (and its ilk) begin to systematically vet contributors for expertise and seriously review articles against fact we can nail them to the wall for political bias. Wikipedia won't, mainly because there's another competing web encyclopedia out there that is taking this approach. However, you sound like you have a case of sour grapes, and you definitely don't sound like you have read much on Wikipedia. The true value of Wikipedia is that it can deal with controversial subjects. Take abortion, for example. Reading about it in a peer reviewed encyclopedia, if you didn't know dick about it, you would wonder what all the controversy was about - because those entries are completely stripped out of all loaded phrases and emotion. The same goes with the 2000 US Presidential election. A huge number of people, possibly the majority in the country, believe that there were dirty tricks and that the election was stolen. But, you won't get any sense of that at all reading about it in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I couldn't read the online entries about either of those topics in a peer-reviewed encyclopedia and even end up knowing where to go to find each sides wacko-rediculous statements, and without reading any of that stuff there's no way anyone can understand how unsolvable that issues like that are. Wikipedia is one of the best starting platforms out there on subjects. Naturally, you don't take it as canonical. But, it is going to suggest avenues of research that the official stuff won't. For example, look up operation freakout and operation snow white in Wikipedia, and look them up in an official encyclopedia. Quite an amazing difference, there. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relativeadvantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 02:10:16AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: The true value of Wikipedia is that it can deal with controversial subjects. ... on the other hand, for some instances it doesn't _deal_ with controversial subjects, but only reflects the most common opinion. Currently(*) the only way to see what's going on is to examine the history of changes to a given page, taking into account that since the updaters are anonymous there's no guarantee that one can relate their opinions to facts. (*) is there a guarantee that the change history will remain? If not, at that point one may as well delete wikipedia. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net pgpJqza17EWwO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 03:59:43PM +0200, Svein Halvor Halvorsen wrote: Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research assignment that involved that information. Apparently the number of students who trusted the false information without verifying it was quite high. I should take that as a lesson that most people _don't_ know how to verify the validity of information and be more careful when I make sarcastic statements. Lee Capps wrote: That's interesting, though, to pick a nit, it may just show that students were in a hurry, rather than that they necessarily trust the info or that they don't know _how_ to verify the info. And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? How is it unethical? He altered information and tested his students to see if they'd verify it. Although unless it was information relating to their major I don't see why he should berate them for not checking. I'm not likely to care enough to double- or triple- check information on many many topics out there if it's something irrelevant to my line of work or my interests/hobbies. Now, if he LEFT the information vandalized, that would be unethical, since others out there may rely on the information and he knowingly left it with misleading data, since the whole idea behind the Wiki is that people with knowledge will share their knowledge and not mislead people. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Apr 25, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Paul Schmehl wrote: --On Wednesday, April 25, 2007 15:29:04 -0400 Thomas Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:15:03PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: No kidding. That professor should have his Wikipedia account banned, and the head of his department should be informed of his vandalism. I don't suppose you know the name of his Wikipedia account, or his legal name. . . . yawn. That sort of research has been going on for years. Less interesting is the sort of trash emitted by people who don't like knowing that whatever they've read on a webpage might not be completely accurate, and that they might have to do some of their own thinking. regards. At one time I had high hopes that the internet would usher in a new era of increased knowledge and reduced gullibility. Instead it seems to have simply hastened the arrival to the wrong conclusions. There are opportunities for increased knowledge. Gullibility, though, is part of our human nature. How many of you delve four levels deep when looking for a quick reference on something that, in the long run, you care little about? If you're not a mechanic or car enthusiast, do you look into anything and everything on how a clutch works, or every variation of four wheel drive implementations? Probably not. We don't devote time and resources into being renaissance people. For me, I look up the answer, if it sounds reasonable, I go with it unless someone else points out a deficiency in the answer. I need a quick and dirty answer to move on to things I *do* care about. The problem is that people will accept an answer whether it makes sense or not. We had someone once convinced that a Laser Car Wash cleaned cars by shooting small lasers at the car to clean it. It was something so far left field of what they're interested in and knowledgeable about that they just accepted the answer, even though there's no way such a system would be affordable (or safe enough) to use as a car washing tool. Then again, there are those that do this intentionally, because spreading misinformation is in their best interest and they profit from it. Even schools profit, not necessarily monetarily, by keeping students from questioning what they are taught. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On 27/04/07, Bart Silverstrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't devote time and resources into being renaissance people. Human intelligence is hardly limited in that regard. While I do not subscribe to the Colin Wilson theory, the vast majority of people contain so little information it is quite shameful, and the less you learn the harder it is to learn. These arguments about ethics show how truly shallow ethicists bother to think. Wikipedia is a daycare centre which has given out a nearly unlimited number of crayons and is now complaining about children drawing on the walls. It is also a fairly plain example of the cliche of the inmates running the asylum. To assign scholarly status and impute scholarly ethics on such a nonsensical rubbish pile is as silly as taking my arguments here as more than the ranting of a deranged keyboard jockey. What that purported professor did is no more unethical than crapping in somone else's toilet, and to claim other- wise is to elevate it to a king's throne. Once wikipedia (and its ilk) begin to systematically vet contributors for expertise and seriously review articles against fact we can nail them to the wall for political bias. -- -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Ivan Voras wrote: Bill Moran wrote: Does this test demonstrate usage of memory over 4G? It's my understanding that PAE starts to suffer when it has to look at the memory over 4G (which is the problem it's intended to solve) If your entire test fits in under 4G, you're not seeing the worst of it. At least, that's my understanding of the issue. I don't think that's how PAE works. AFAIK, it adds all the memory pages it can find (including those above and below 4 GB) into the VM pool with 64-bit addresses, so all of them can be used by the applications in an uniform way. Kind of like swap works. From what I've read, don't use PAE because it's a hack for hardware to attempt to properly map 4GB+ into 32-bit address space. Many OSes make up for that fact by masking that only 3.5GB is usable, because precision is an issue (4GB is the tipping point for 32-bit architectures). PAE was brought about prior to real native Intel-compatible 64-bit architectures came into play (Itanium aka IA64 doesn't count, because that's a whole different ball of wax). From my understanding of the underlying hardware, PAE uses two separate sets of control buses, and as logic dictates, having two things trying to tell programs what memory gets mapped to what becomes messy / slow. A true 64-bit architecture will properly map all of that memory (up to 64TB? -- I forget the actual number), and can properly use the memory for your intended purposes. You'll need to make sure that you run a 64-bit compiled OS though, not a 32-bit OS. AMD64 and EMT64 allow you to run 32-bit binaries and 64-bit binaries, with many times little issue (the only issue may exist in compiling the binaries, but that's what PRs are for to ports / core maintainers). Plus, because FreeBSD can be compiled (for the most part besides proprietary drivers like the nvidia-kernel) with 64-bit support from the bottom up, it's a much better OS than say Windows XP-x64 (a bloody f'ing hack from M$ I've discovered -- about as much driver support and stability at times as 95/98 offered for 32-bit back in the day) or Vista x64. My 2 cents. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Apr 26, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Svein Halvor Halvorsen Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:00 AM To: Lee Capps Cc: Thomas Dickey; Bill Moran; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)) Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? I hope this professor got some sort of reaction from his University due to his unethical attitude towards openness, knowledge and science. I'm afraid I have to agree. The Prof was as lazy as his students. The world abounds in misinformation, it doesen't take a lot of effort to find it. The prof could have spent the hour he spent forging info in Wikipedia, finding already forged misinformation and having his students research that. He could have started at the Scientology website, for example, then moved on to PETA and the NRA. I note with interest that, so far, none of us has tried to track down this professor's possibly apocryphal research ;-) --- Lee Capps Technology Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
In response to Lee Capps [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Apr 26, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Svein Halvor Halvorsen Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:00 AM To: Lee Capps Cc: Thomas Dickey; Bill Moran; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)) Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? I hope this professor got some sort of reaction from his University due to his unethical attitude towards openness, knowledge and science. I'm afraid I have to agree. The Prof was as lazy as his students. The world abounds in misinformation, it doesen't take a lot of effort to find it. The prof could have spent the hour he spent forging info in Wikipedia, finding already forged misinformation and having his students research that. He could have started at the Scientology website, for example, then moved on to PETA and the NRA. I note with interest that, so far, none of us has tried to track down this professor's possibly apocryphal research ;-) :D Perhaps this was all just a devious plan by me to make you all look like fools by watching your argue about the importance of checking sources while none of you checked your sources ... Muhahaha ... In any event, it's been a fascinating sociological lesson for me. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 09:17:32AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: Perhaps this was all just a devious plan by me to make you all look like fools by watching your argue about the importance of checking sources while none of you checked your sources ... Muhahaha ... In any event, it's been a fascinating sociological lesson for me. If you had provided the guy's Wikipedia account, we'd be able to check *your* sources -- wouldn't we? As long as you don't tell us the necessary information for checking up on it, we simply can't do anything with it. Sociological lesson? If you're just trying to get a reaction, I think the technical term is actually trolling. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] print substr(Just another Perl hacker, 0, -2); ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
In response to Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 09:17:32AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: Perhaps this was all just a devious plan by me to make you all look like fools by watching your argue about the importance of checking sources while none of you checked your sources ... Muhahaha ... In any event, it's been a fascinating sociological lesson for me. If you had provided the guy's Wikipedia account, we'd be able to check *your* sources -- wouldn't we? As long as you don't tell us the necessary information for checking up on it, we simply can't do anything with it. I gave my source. Have you contacted him? Why are you accusing me of failing to do something that I did? Sociological lesson? If you're just trying to get a reaction, I think the technical term is actually trolling. Don't invent things that aren't there. Yes, it's been a sociological lesson. No, I was not trying to get a reaction. The major sociological lesson is the reaction that I _did_ get, which I did not expect, and (quite frankly) didn't want -- still don't, for that matter. Perhaps you should switch to decaf? As for me, I will post no more on this topic to questions@ as the subject matter is no longer relevant, and is obviously inflammatory. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 01:48:46PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: In response to Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you had provided the guy's Wikipedia account, we'd be able to check *your* sources -- wouldn't we? As long as you don't tell us the necessary information for checking up on it, we simply can't do anything with it. I gave my source. Have you contacted him? Why are you accusing me of failing to do something that I did? Funny -- I don't remember seeing that information. Perhaps you could re-post it. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Real ugliness is not harsh-looking syntax, but having to build programs out of the wrong concepts. - Paul Graham ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Bill Moran wrote: Does this test demonstrate usage of memory over 4G? It's my understanding that PAE starts to suffer when it has to look at the memory over 4G (which is the problem it's intended to solve) If your entire test fits in under 4G, you're not seeing the worst of it. At least, that's my understanding of the issue. I don't think that's how PAE works. AFAIK, it adds all the memory pages it can find (including those above and below 4 GB) into the VM pool with 64-bit addresses, so all of them can be used by the applications in an uniform way. Kind of like swap works. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Le 24/04/2007 à 11:39:46-0700, Don O'Neil a écrit Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? On attachement a config to compile on my AMD64 (on i386 FreeBSD) with 4 Go. Be carreful, I drop all device I don't need, check your NIC/SCSI card is in the config (well not in the file I give). Regards JAS -- Albert SHIH Observatoire de Paris Meudon SIO batiment 15 Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26 Heure local/Local time: Mer 25 avr 2007 11:41:05 CEST # # PAE -- Generic kernel configuration file for FreeBSD/i386 PAE # # $FreeBSD: src/sys/i386/conf/PAE,v 1.16.2.3 2006/03/12 16:39:40 scottl Exp $ include GENERIC ident PAE # To make a PAE kernel, the next option is needed options PAE # Physical Address Extensions Kernel # Compile acpi in statically since the module isn't built properly. Most # machines which support large amounts of memory require acpi. device acpi # Don't build modules with this kernel config, since they are not built with # the correct options headers. makeoptions NO_MODULES=yes # What follows is a list of drivers that are normally in GENERIC, but either # don't work or are untested with PAE. Be very careful before enabling any # of these drivers. Drivers which use DMA and don't handle 64 bit physical # address properly may cause data corruption when used in a machine with more # than 4 gigabytes of memory. nodeviceahb nodeviceamd nodevicesym nodevicetrm nodeviceadv nodeviceadw nodeviceaha nodeviceaic nodevicebt nodevicencv nodevicensp nodevicestg nodeviceasr nodevicedpt nodevicemly nodevicehptmv nodeviceida nodevicemlx nodevicepst nodeviceagp nodevicede nodevicetxp nodevicevx nodevicenve nodevicepcn nodevicesf nodevicesis nodeviceste nodevicetl nodevicetx nodevicevr nodevicewb nodevicecs nodeviceed nodeviceex nodeviceep nodevicefe nodeviceie nodevicelnc nodevicesn nodevicexe nodevicewlan nodevicean nodeviceawi nodeviceral nodevicewi nodeviceuhci nodeviceohci nodeviceehci nodeviceusb nodeviceugen nodeviceuhid nodeviceukbd nodeviceulpt nodeviceumass nodeviceums nodeviceural nodeviceurio nodeviceuscanner nodeviceaue nodeviceaxe nodevicecdce nodevicecue nodevicekue nodevicerue nodevicewlan# 802.11 support nodevicewlan_wep# 802.11 WEP support nodevicewlan_ccmp # 802.11 CCMP support nodevicewlan_tkip # 802.11 TKIP support nodevicean # Aironet 4500/4800 802.11 wireless NICs. nodeviceath # Atheros pci/cardbus NIC's nodeviceath_hal # Atheros HAL (Hardware Access Layer) nodeviceath_rate_sample # SampleRate tx rate control for ath nodeviceawi # BayStack 660 and others nodeviceral # Ralink Technology RT2500 wireless NICs. nodevicewi # WaveLAN/Intersil/Symbol 802.11 wireless NICs. # Rajout locaux options SMP # Enable Linux ABI emulation options COMPAT_LINUX # Enable i386 a.out binary support options COMPAT_AOUT # Enable the linux-like proc filesystem support (requires COMPAT_LINUX # and PSEUDOFS) options LINPROCFS ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:56:09 -0700 Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, ... What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? AFAIK all the reasons for staying 32-bit are specific to desktop software - I don't think there is any reason not to go to AMD64. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)
In response to Ivan Voras [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Bill Moran wrote: Does this test demonstrate usage of memory over 4G? It's my understanding that PAE starts to suffer when it has to look at the memory over 4G (which is the problem it's intended to solve) If your entire test fits in under 4G, you're not seeing the worst of it. At least, that's my understanding of the issue. I don't think that's how PAE works. AFAIK, it adds all the memory pages it can find (including those above and below 4 GB) into the VM pool with 64-bit addresses, so all of them can be used by the applications in an uniform way. Kind of like swap works. I'm no expert, so I did a little research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension (of course, everyone knows that Wikipedia is the ultimate source of information and is infallible, right?) Anyway, based on that article, I would assume the performance hit comes from the fact that access to memory has to pass through three layers of pointers on PAE systems. Which means every time you access RAM, you have an extra lookup to find the address of the memory you want (compared to ia32) However, amd64 uses the same extra table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amd64#Virtual_address_space_details so I'm unsure how amd64 manages to avoid the performance issue, if that is indeed the reason for it. PAE is still a 32 bit architecture. This means that somehow the operating system has to translate 32bit pointers in the application into 64 bit pointers for actual memory access. The Wikipedia article doesn't explain how this is done, but it's possible (likely?) that this is a reason for decreased performance as well. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 08:31:53AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: (of course, everyone knows that Wikipedia is the ultimate source of information and is infallible, right?) hardly. I'd expect that most intelligent readers would have encountered at least one wikipedia article which is inaccurate. Like any source of information, it's only a starting point. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net pgplMDDE4MqM3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to RW [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:56:09 -0700 Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, ... What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? AFAIK all the reasons for staying 32-bit are specific to desktop software - I don't think there is any reason not to go to AMD64. I'll second that. We've got a lot of amd64 systems here. The only ones we've had problems with are desktop applications. Every server application we've dealt with has worked perfectly under amd64. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
In response to Thomas Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 08:31:53AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: (of course, everyone knows that Wikipedia is the ultimate source of information and is infallible, right?) hardly. I'd expect that most intelligent readers would have encountered at least one wikipedia article which is inaccurate. Like any source of information, it's only a starting point. Hmm ...I suppose I should have explicitly marked that comment as sarcasm. I simply expected that people would understand that such a ridiculous remark could only be tongue-in-cheek. A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research assignment that involved that information. Apparently the number of students who trusted the false information without verifying it was quite high. I should take that as a lesson that most people _don't_ know how to verify the validity of information and be more careful when I make sarcastic statements. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Apr 25, 2007, at 8:55 AM, Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research assignment that involved that information. Apparently the number of students who trusted the false information without verifying it was quite high. I should take that as a lesson that most people _don't_ know how to verify the validity of information and be more careful when I make sarcastic statements. That's interesting, though, to pick a nit, it may just show that students were in a hurry, rather than that they necessarily trust the info or that they don't know _how_ to verify the info. --- Lee Capps Technology Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research assignment that involved that information. Apparently the number of students who trusted the false information without verifying it was quite high. I should take that as a lesson that most people _don't_ know how to verify the validity of information and be more careful when I make sarcastic statements. Lee Capps wrote: That's interesting, though, to pick a nit, it may just show that students were in a hurry, rather than that they necessarily trust the info or that they don't know _how_ to verify the info. And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? I hope this professor got some sort of reaction from his University due to his unethical attitude towards openness, knowledge and science. Svein Halvor ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 03:59:43PM +0200, Svein Halvor Halvorsen wrote: Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research assignment that involved that information. Apparently the number of students who trusted the false information without verifying it was quite high. I should take that as a lesson that most people _don't_ know how to verify the validity of information and be more careful when I make sarcastic statements. Lee Capps wrote: That's interesting, though, to pick a nit, it may just show that students were in a hurry, rather than that they necessarily trust the info or that they don't know _how_ to verify the info. And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? No kidding. That professor should have his Wikipedia account banned, and the head of his department should be informed of his vandalism. I don't suppose you know the name of his Wikipedia account, or his legal name. . . . -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit. - W. Somerset Maugham ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:15:03PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: No kidding. That professor should have his Wikipedia account banned, and the head of his department should be informed of his vandalism. I don't suppose you know the name of his Wikipedia account, or his legal name. . . . yawn. That sort of research has been going on for years. Less interesting is the sort of trash emitted by people who don't like knowing that whatever they've read on a webpage might not be completely accurate, and that they might have to do some of their own thinking. regards. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net pgpR3piQ1RU0q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
--On Wednesday, April 25, 2007 15:29:04 -0400 Thomas Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:15:03PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: No kidding. That professor should have his Wikipedia account banned, and the head of his department should be informed of his vandalism. I don't suppose you know the name of his Wikipedia account, or his legal name. . . . yawn. That sort of research has been going on for years. Less interesting is the sort of trash emitted by people who don't like knowing that whatever they've read on a webpage might not be completely accurate, and that they might have to do some of their own thinking. regards. At one time I had high hopes that the internet would usher in a new era of increased knowledge and reduced gullibility. Instead it seems to have simply hastened the arrival to the wrong conclusions. -- Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Senior Information Security Analyst The University of Texas at Dallas http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 03:29:04PM -0400, Thomas Dickey wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:15:03PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: No kidding. That professor should have his Wikipedia account banned, and the head of his department should be informed of his vandalism. I don't suppose you know the name of his Wikipedia account, or his legal name. . . . yawn. That sort of research has been going on for years. The fact that some idiot professor takes leave of his senses every few months doesn't change the fact that these idiot professors should not be held accountable for vandalism. Less interesting is the sort of trash emitted by people who don't like knowing that whatever they've read on a webpage might not be completely accurate, and that they might have to do some of their own thinking. I definitely agree that's suboptimal. I'd expand that to include other sorts of pages, other than webpages, as well. It's pretty rare for this particular brand of intellectually lazy person to realize that about the printed page, though. I'm amused at the appropriateness of my randomly chosen sig to this topic, by the way. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] It's just incredible that a trillion-synapse computer could actually spend Saturday afternoon watching a football game. - Marvin Minsky ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:58:55PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: I definitely agree that's suboptimal. I'd expand that to include other sorts of pages, other than webpages, as well. It's pretty rare for this particular brand of intellectually lazy person to realize that about the printed page, though. I recall reading some interesting comments from studies (second hand, e.g., in Science News) which stated that people tended to believe things that were presented in a credible fashion, not questioning them - using the paper or page as an authority which amplified their own general beliefs on a topic. Aside from the circular referencing that occurs when believing that... It's certainly hard to see where/how to decide to stop and question the authority, given that premise (knowing that one is biased). But it's perhaps a good habit to get into - observing that reading things that one already agrees with are perhaps as problematic as those that one does not. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net pgp841KNhNsK7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
On Wednesday 25 April 2007 21:21:47 Thomas Dickey wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 01:58:55PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: I definitely agree that's suboptimal. I'd expand that to include other sorts of pages, other than webpages, as well. It's pretty rare for this particular brand of intellectually lazy person to realize that about the printed page, though. I recall reading some interesting comments from studies (second hand, e.g., in Science News) which stated that people tended to believe things that were presented in a credible fashion, not questioning them - using the paper or page as an authority which amplified their own general beliefs on a topic. Aside from the circular referencing that occurs when believing that... It's certainly hard to see where/how to decide to stop and question the authority, given that premise (knowing that one is biased). But it's perhaps a good habit to get into - observing that reading things that one already agrees with are perhaps as problematic as those that one does not. If there was an easy answer to this quistion most con attists would be out of a job. Even high ranking universities has been known to employ a con man from time to time - so while the discussion is relevant - i don't see any reason that this thread should not be in chat ;-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?))
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Svein Halvor Halvorsen Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:00 AM To: Lee Capps Cc: Thomas Dickey; Bill Moran; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wikipedia's perfection (was Re: Discussion of the relative advantages/disadvantages of PAE (was Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?)) Bill Moran wrote: A friend of mine going for his Dr. at CMU (Patrick Wagstrom: GNOME guy) describes an exercise where a professor intentionally injected false information into Wikipedia, then gave his students a research And also: Where is this professor's ethics? Does he also misinform the students in class, only to later accuse them of not verifying the facts? And did he even think about the fact that others may have read his misinformation? Why does this professor think that his agenda is more important than Wikipedia's? Did he later correct the articles? I hope this professor got some sort of reaction from his University due to his unethical attitude towards openness, knowledge and science. I'm afraid I have to agree. The Prof was as lazy as his students. The world abounds in misinformation, it doesen't take a lot of effort to find it. The prof could have spent the hour he spent forging info in Wikipedia, finding already forged misinformation and having his students research that. He could have started at the Scientology website, for example, then moved on to PETA and the NRA. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Memory 3.5GB not used?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don O'Neil Sent: 24 avril 2007 13:56 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Memory 3.5GB not used? I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. Either use the amd64 version of freebsd or activate PAE in your kernel Regards ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html#PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html#PAE i have a system with 4GB memory, doing the same similar behavior. but, on top of not using the last few hundred megs of ram, even the POST shows like 3.6 or 3.7GB of ram. is PAE still a solution for my case? [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ dmesg | grep memory real memory = 3958833152 (3775 MB) avail memory = 3875762176 (3696 MB) thanks, jonathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dfwlpiki.dfwlp.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to Jonathan Horne [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html#PAE i have a system with 4GB memory, doing the same similar behavior. but, on top of not using the last few hundred megs of ram, even the POST shows like 3.6 or 3.7GB of ram. is PAE still a solution for my case? [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ dmesg | grep memory real memory = 3958833152 (3775 MB) avail memory = 3875762176 (3696 MB) As noted in the FAQ, this is hardware-dependent. Some crappy motherboards don't remap the memory, and it can not be used as a result. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Don O'Neil wrote: Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? You need a PAE kernel to access the whole 4g, for more you definitely need an amd64 install. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html#PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
On 4/24/07, Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? commenting it from the kernel config will only prevent it from being built staticlly in the kernel. If you want to prevent the module from being built, look at the MODULES_OVERRIDE or WITHOUT_MODULES options to make.conf. man 5 make.conf for more details. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html#PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- I'm nerdy in the extreme and whiter than sour cream ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Memory 3.5GB not used?
I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? -Original Message- From: Andy Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:44 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? On 4/24/07, Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? commenting it from the kernel config will only prevent it from being built staticlly in the kernel. If you want to prevent the module from being built, look at the MODULES_OVERRIDE or WITHOUT_MODULES options to make.conf. man 5 make.conf for more details. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html #PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- I'm nerdy in the extreme and whiter than sour cream ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
On Tue, Apr 24, 2007 at 11:47:22AM -0700, Don O'Neil wrote: I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? When you built the kernel the first time you did not have PAE enabled. Just disable the module builds, as Andy said. Kris P.S. don't top-post, it is irritating and destroys context -Original Message- From: Andy Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:44 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? On 4/24/07, Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? commenting it from the kernel config will only prevent it from being built staticlly in the kernel. If you want to prevent the module from being built, look at the MODULES_OVERRIDE or WITHOUT_MODULES options to make.conf. man 5 make.conf for more details. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html #PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- I'm nerdy in the extreme and whiter than sour cream ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? Not all modules work with PAE. Read the example PAE kernel file for information. PAE is an awful hack, BTW. I've heard a number of people complain that performance sucks under PAE. -Original Message- From: Andy Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:44 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? On 4/24/07, Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? commenting it from the kernel config will only prevent it from being built staticlly in the kernel. If you want to prevent the module from being built, look at the MODULES_OVERRIDE or WITHOUT_MODULES options to make.conf. man 5 make.conf for more details. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.html #PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- I'm nerdy in the extreme and whiter than sour cream ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Memory 3.5GB not used?
If it's a hack maybe I should just not worry about the extra .5GB then... I don't really need it, it was just a bit of an annoyance to see the message. When I need more RAM I'll just update to AMD64. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:55 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: 'Andy Greenwood'; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? Not all modules work with PAE. Read the example PAE kernel file for information. PAE is an awful hack, BTW. I've heard a number of people complain that performance sucks under PAE. -Original Message- From: Andy Greenwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:44 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? On 4/24/07, Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all who pointed out the obvious PAE option... When I went to rebuild the kernel I got this message: +++ cc -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe -Werror -D_KERNEL -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT/opt_global.h -I. -I@ -I@/contrib/altq -I/usr/include -finline-limit=8000 -fno-common -g -I/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT -mno-align-long-strings -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -mno-mmx -mno-3dnow -mno-sse -mno-sse2 -ffreestanding -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -std=c99 -c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c: In function `ahaaction': /usr/src/sys/modules/aha/../../dev/aha/aha.c:848: warning: cast from pointer to integer of different size *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules/aha. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/modules. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/sys/i386/compile/KERMIT. +++ Why would it be complaining about the aha module when I have it commented out as a device? commenting it from the kernel config will only prevent it from being built staticlly in the kernel. If you want to prevent the module from being built, look at the MODULES_OVERRIDE or WITHOUT_MODULES options to make.conf. man 5 make.conf for more details. -Original Message- From: Bill Moran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:05 AM To: Don O'Neil Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory 3.5GB not used? In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just built a new server with an Athlon 64 x2, 4GB Ram and a Gigabyte/Nvidia motherboard. When I boot the system up it says on the console that 532888K will be ignored. Of course it isn't put in any of the log files. Dmesg shows this: real memory = 3724476416 (3551 MB) avail memory = 3649908736 (3480 MB) Any reason the extra 1/2 GB isn't showing up or usable? Is there something I need to specify in the kernel to get to the other 1/2 GB? What if I want to install more than 4GB? This mobo supports up to 16 GB... Do I need to go to the AMD64 platform to get 4GB? I'm running FreeBSD 6.1 i386 SMP kernel. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/troubleshoot.ht ml #PAE -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- I'm nerdy in the extreme and whiter than sour cream ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Jonathan Horne wrote: i have a system with 4GB memory, doing the same similar behavior. but, on top of not using the last few hundred megs of ram, even the POST shows like 3.6 or 3.7GB of ram. is PAE still a solution for my case? [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]$ dmesg | grep memory real memory = 3958833152 (3775 MB) avail memory = 3875762176 (3696 MB) My motherboard has a BIOS option as to how the memory is to be used. If it is remapped, then you can see 3.2GB from a 32-bit OS (like Windows XP or Vista x86). If I turn remapping off, then only 3.0GB will show in such a 32-bit OS. However, a 64-bit OS can see all the memory and use it accordingly. Check your BIOS. Tom Veldhouse ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
Bill Moran wrote: In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? Not all modules work with PAE. Read the example PAE kernel file for information. PAE is an awful hack, BTW. I've heard a number of people complain that performance sucks under PAE. It greatly depends on the workload. For example, these are my results with unixbench: PAE: INDEX VALUES TESTBASELINE RESULT INDEX Dhrystone 2 using register variables116700.0 6404191.9 548.8 Double-Precision Whetstone 55.0 1444.6 262.7 Execl Throughput43.0 2374.5 552.2 File Copy 1024 bufsize 2000 maxblocks 3960.047618.0 120.2 File Copy 256 bufsize 500 maxblocks 1655.041809.0 252.6 File Copy 4096 bufsize 8000 maxblocks 5800.058002.0 100.0 Pipe Throughput 12440.0 1018477.4 818.7 Pipe-based Context Switching 4000.032811.6 82.0 Process Creation 126.0 4491.9 356.5 Shell Scripts (8 concurrent) 6.0 638.0 1063.3 System Call Overhead 15000.0 798137.5 532.1 = FINAL SCORE 317.2 NO PAE: INDEX VALUES TESTBASELINE RESULT INDEX Dhrystone 2 using register variables116700.0 6673515.4 571.9 Double-Precision Whetstone 55.0 1475.1 268.2 Execl Throughput43.0 2335.9 543.2 File Copy 1024 bufsize 2000 maxblocks 3960.043796.0 110.6 File Copy 256 bufsize 500 maxblocks 1655.039474.0 238.5 File Copy 4096 bufsize 8000 maxblocks 5800.057819.0 99.7 Pipe Throughput 12440.0 998089.5 802.3 Pipe-based Context Switching 4000.025928.4 64.8 Process Creation 126.0 5043.9 400.3 Shell Scripts (8 concurrent) 6.0 697.0 1161.7 System Call Overhead 15000.0 792628.3 528.4 = FINAL SCORE 312.7 The final score is better in PAE case because IO performance measured better, but in this case I know this particular benchmark can be ignored, but the rest of the numbers should be fine. In short, PAE is worse, but not horribly so. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Memory 3.5GB not used?
In response to Ivan Voras [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Bill Moran wrote: In response to Don O'Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I never had this problem before when I built the kernel the first time. Could my module source be corrupt? If so, how do I re-install just the kernel sources for 6.1? Not all modules work with PAE. Read the example PAE kernel file for information. PAE is an awful hack, BTW. I've heard a number of people complain that performance sucks under PAE. It greatly depends on the workload. For example, these are my results with unixbench: PAE: INDEX VALUES TESTBASELINE RESULT INDEX Dhrystone 2 using register variables116700.0 6404191.9 548.8 Double-Precision Whetstone 55.0 1444.6 262.7 Execl Throughput43.0 2374.5 552.2 File Copy 1024 bufsize 2000 maxblocks 3960.047618.0 120.2 File Copy 256 bufsize 500 maxblocks 1655.041809.0 252.6 File Copy 4096 bufsize 8000 maxblocks 5800.058002.0 100.0 Pipe Throughput 12440.0 1018477.4 818.7 Pipe-based Context Switching 4000.032811.6 82.0 Process Creation 126.0 4491.9 356.5 Shell Scripts (8 concurrent) 6.0 638.0 1063.3 System Call Overhead 15000.0 798137.5 532.1 = FINAL SCORE 317.2 NO PAE: INDEX VALUES TESTBASELINE RESULT INDEX Dhrystone 2 using register variables116700.0 6673515.4 571.9 Double-Precision Whetstone 55.0 1475.1 268.2 Execl Throughput43.0 2335.9 543.2 File Copy 1024 bufsize 2000 maxblocks 3960.043796.0 110.6 File Copy 256 bufsize 500 maxblocks 1655.039474.0 238.5 File Copy 4096 bufsize 8000 maxblocks 5800.057819.0 99.7 Pipe Throughput 12440.0 998089.5 802.3 Pipe-based Context Switching 4000.025928.4 64.8 Process Creation 126.0 5043.9 400.3 Shell Scripts (8 concurrent) 6.0 697.0 1161.7 System Call Overhead 15000.0 792628.3 528.4 = FINAL SCORE 312.7 The final score is better in PAE case because IO performance measured better, but in this case I know this particular benchmark can be ignored, but the rest of the numbers should be fine. In short, PAE is worse, but not horribly so. Does this test demonstrate usage of memory over 4G? It's my understanding that PAE starts to suffer when it has to look at the memory over 4G (which is the problem it's intended to solve) If your entire test fits in under 4G, you're not seeing the worst of it. At least, that's my understanding of the issue. -- Bill Moran http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
