Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On Jun 2, 2012, at 00:51, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.2012, at 07:19, Freddie Cash fjwc...@gmail.com wrote: Glustre sits above the storage system, replicating data between systems. So, disks -- ZFS (via Zvols) -- Glustre. How is this different than ZFS using remote zvols via iSCSI? Can it tolerate down nodes better than ZFS? Gluster ~ NFS++. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
Am Freitag, den 01.06.2012, 13:56 -0400 schrieb Michael R. Wayne: On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 05:03:26AM -0700, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: If you are NOT using FreeBSD for any area or some areas , would you please list those areas with most important first to least important last ? As mentioned by several others, once you have a single applicaiton that demands Windows, you are mostly stuck running windows. I was used to thinking the same way, but today there is VirtualBox and it does very well. More simple applications work fine using wine, that keeps you from having to install a complete Windows-OS. I do not use FreeBSD when it comes to running hardware dependent WIndows programs in a virtual box. But to be fair I have to mention that things are getting better, the most gadgets do work even without windows - like DMMs (digital multimeters), suport for video and tv hardware has gotten much better. Where I have to leave FreeBSD it's mostly because of fast USB2 tranfers, a DSO (digital storage oscilloscope) is one of those cases that refuse to work inside a vbox, although the device itself is found and attached. Those are the last few issues stopping me from deleting the Windows partition^wslice on my desktop machine. Well done! -- Marc Santhoff m.santh...@web.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On Jun 2, 2012 4:04 AM, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: Hi, On 30 May 2012 PM 7:20:31 David Chisnall wrote: This is off-topic, so please feel free to disregard it, but I'm sending it to this list in the hope that it will reach a largish number of users. I am currently looking at updating some of our advocacy material (which advertises exciting new features like SMP support), and before I do I'd like to get a better feel for why the rest of you are using FreeBSD. If you had to list the three things you most like about FreeBSD, which would you pick? Are they the same as when you first started using it? I must say that it is a long time ago when I sat at the first BSD machine. The most important feature is the configuration and the update procedure. Things rarely change in a way that users have to relearn. It is also important that it is possible to use a machine and upgrade it only every six or twelve months without facing fundamental problems. What helps there that the user can define a branch (8.x or 9.x) and stick with it as long it is supported. The users are not forced to move to the next version which might introduces some changes the user is not used to it. This allows users to skip one main branch. While it is possible to stick with 8 until 10 is released, it is also possible to move to 9 or even 10. Sticking with 8 reduces the risk to get caught with some problems during the upgrade by some 50% But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. Unfortunately this is a massive amount of extra work - we only just keep up with updates as it is. Chris ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 05:12:14PM -0700, Dave Hayes wrote: 1) I don't use FreeBSD for virtualization as the host OS. I really want to, becaus I want to be able to somewhat trust the kernel hosting my virtual machines. FreeBSD technology, support, and documentation for this idea appears unavailable. Perhaps the BSD Hypervisor (BHyVe) might be of interest? http://wiki.freebsd.org/BHyVe A caveat: BHyVe requires Intel CPUs with VT-x and NPT support. These features are on all Nehalem models and beyond (e.g. SandyBridge), but not on the lower-end Atom CPUs. -- Hugo Lombard ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On 06/01/12 21:46, Lars Engels wrote: On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 08:32:08PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote: On 1 June 2012 16:20, Nomen Nescio nob...@dizum.com wrote: Dear All , There is a thread Why Are You Using FreeBSD ? I think another thread with the specified subject 'Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ? may be useful : If you are NOT using FreeBSD for any area or some areas , would you please list those areas with most important first to least important last ? 1a) On scietific production systems, FreeBSD has been banned due to the lack of HPC compilers and appropriate mathematical libraries. The lack of professional/academic support, like that from NAG in the late 1990s, has been droped for FreeBSD as well as the presence of C/C++/F95 compilers. 1b) The lack of GPGPU. This has become so important to HPC these days. We use nVidia GPU based TESLA boards with OpenCL software (CUDA is luckily not necessary). The lack of professional drivers for 64Bit on FreeBSD was long time an issue, nVidia now provides drivers, but they don't provide their CUDA/OpenCL libraries along with their nvcc compiler natively for 64Bit FreeBSD/amd64. The Linuxulator isn't any option. 2) Disk and network I/O issues under load. We realized that FreeBSD has some issues in multithreaded environments. Even on 6/12 or 12/24 core/thread systems, under heavy load (especially network and CPU load), disk I/O was (is?) poor. This is a no-go in a HPC environment. 3) Outdated ports OR not available ports: some important software maintained by the US government (USGS, NASA/JPL) is only provided for Mac OS X and some Linux derivatives. We created our own ports for some of those, but maintaining these, especially those provided by the USGS (ISIS3) is hard work. Other software, like the AMES StereoPipeline, seems to be crippled by intention when it comes to the sources (essential portions are vanished in the repositories). Developers are unwilling - by intention, lack of time or lack of capabilities. 4) The lack of clustering capabilities. The lack of a clustered filesystem grows more and more important in the area of HPC, where storage systems get spread over a department. I lost track in the development on FreeBSD since around 2003. At the moment, for me personally this issue isn't so important, but in combination with items 1) through 3) and the migration towards Linux (we use prefereably Ubuntu server, some Suse and on some servers CentOS/RedHat, which suffers from the Linux-narrowminded deseas as well, in my opinion, but you'll get support by Dell and others - in times of strangling contracts, a more and more restricted freedom of science in favor of business ... another story ...) Well, item 3 isn't a real FreeBSD issue. I have the impression that since the good old UNIX times, mid 1990s, a deadly Virus spread around called Linux, attracting development schemata known from Microsoft/Windows: narrow minded Linux-only sources, nearsighted development, shortcuts due to political reasons, even if the sources are available for all. I regret this development of open software very deeply and it is not the *BSD UNIX developers fault (excluding item 1 and 2, that are political issues and a burden of the BSD folks having made political decissions in the past!). I do not speak for my department and I do not speak for my colleagues. I speka for myself and my opinion. Personally, I use FreeBSD private and under my desk - and I really suffer from the lack of GPGPU, since even some opensource, high performance software like Blender benefetis tremendously from using CUDA/OpenCL if GPU is available. Regards, Oliver Hartmann signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 AM 9:14:28 Chris Rees wrote: On Jun 2, 2012 4:04 AM, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. Unfortunately this is a massive amount of extra work - we only just keep up with updates as it is. I do not think so. At least not for the first step as I see it. Just make snapshots of the ports tree when the release comes out. These snapshots are with the releases anyway. What I did was very simple. I got the ports tree that comes with the release and installed the system back to the release status. Ok, it was some work for me - maybe not for others - to find this tree. A simple link could help here. I do not know if this is just an opinion which is too optimistic. What I know is that all the security fixes which appeared since the release are not in there. If I have the choice between three days or more of compiling and known security holes, I will take the security holes, make the client happy and upgrade after the work for the client is finished. I would not expect that FreeBSD will provide more than this. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On 02.06.12 09:23, David Magda wrote: On Jun 2, 2012, at 00:51, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.2012, at 07:19, Freddie Cashfjwc...@gmail.com wrote: Glustre sits above the storage system, replicating data between systems. So, disks -- ZFS (via Zvols) -- Glustre. How is this different than ZFS using remote zvols via iSCSI? Can it tolerate down nodes better than ZFS? Gluster ~ NFS++. So Gluster is basically ZFS with NFS frontend? Something readily available in FreeBSD. The clients don't even have to learn new file sharing protocol. Daniel ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 2 Jun 2012, at 03:56, Erich Dollansky wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. OpenBSD did this for a while, but they gave up because they weren't doing it well enough to recommend it and it did more harm to users to do it badly than not at all. Ideally, you want to get security fixes for all installed applications, but nothing else, in this model. There are two ways of doing this: - Back-port security fixes to the version shipped with the base system - Import the security-fixed version into the stable set. The second option has the problem that you identified: if the new version depends on a newer library, then this cascades and you end up needing to import a new version of hundreds of ports. The first option has a much simpler disadvantage: it requires a huge amount of manpower. Companies like Red Hat can do this because they charge their users a lot for this service. We could probably do this if we had enough users willing to pay for the service, or if we restrict it to a set of packages that do their own security backports upstream. The problem with the second option can be alleviated if we make it easier to have multiple versions of libraries installed at the same time (this is something that the PBI system in PC-BSD does, albeit in an ugly hackish way that could be improved significantly with a bit of assistance from rtld). David___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On 02.06.12 12:27, O. Hartmann wrote: 1a) On scietific production systems, FreeBSD has been banned due to the lack of HPC compilers and appropriate mathematical libraries. The lack of professional/academic support, like that from NAG in the late 1990s, has been droped for FreeBSD as well as the presence of C/C++/F95 compilers. Could you please elaborate on this a bit. Scientific software, as such rarely depends on any hardware and should be practically OS agnostic. What are these libraries, that scientific production systems use that cannot be used on FreeBSD? Same about support. If someone supports an scientific library on an OS, chances are they can support it on FreeBSD just as well, except if they are religious fanatics, that is. FreeBSD has always had more or less recent compilers available. Perhaps, not in the base system. As you say, this issue is strictly political (to not have cuitting edge [double the quote, for more pun] compilers). The policy with FreeBSD is stability over all else and that the base must be able to compile itself -- this is what any UNIX system is supposed to handle, but that's another long story. The recent developments with clang/llvm are very promising as well. I can hardly imagine it being that difficult to maintain an advanced compiler around just to compile your highly specific code. Further, recent gcc is in ports anyway. 1b) The lack of GPGPU. This has become so important to HPC these days. We use nVidia GPU based TESLA boards with OpenCL software (CUDA is luckily not necessary). The lack of professional drivers for 64Bit on FreeBSD was long time an issue, nVidia now provides drivers, but they don't provide their CUDA/OpenCL libraries along with their nvcc compiler natively for 64Bit FreeBSD/amd64. The Linuxulator isn't any option. This one is regrettable. Outside of the scientific usage, it could let desktop users offload a lot of processing to their (in most cases more powerful than the CPU, video controller). But how is this FreeBSD fault? I would attribute it more to inability of nVidia programmers, or their lack of resources (I doubt that many people do driver development there anyway) as the reason why we don't see it. If they have scarce resources available, it's understandable why they do not see the immediate need to port their code to FreeBSD. I am confident, given this hardware is not that cheap, that any bigger user asking for FreeBSD support could motivate them to just do it. I also believe there is nothing hidden in FreeBSD and that in general FreeBSD has been more stable API-wise than other UNIX platforms around. And, I also believe should there be interest from nVidia, tey will see support and help from FreeBSD developers. Or they could just release their hardware spec, if they can't do it themselves for one reason or another. After all, much more complex tasks have been resolved with FreeBSD. 2) Disk and network I/O issues under load. We realized that FreeBSD has some issues in multithreaded environments. Even on 6/12 or 12/24 core/thread systems, under heavy load (especially network and CPU load), disk I/O was (is?) poor. This is a no-go in a HPC environment. Could you please elaborate on this a bit? On one hand, I am surprised that the HPC environment will have such requirements and on the other hand this is how typical higher-end storage systems are built with FreeBSD. I haven't seen anything like this and am willing to test on 24-32 core systems. You said this is political for FreeBSD .. why? I don't get it? FreeBSD has no policy of failing under heavy load -- quite the contrary. 3) Outdated ports OR not available ports: some important software maintained by the US government (USGS, NASA/JPL) is only provided for Mac OS X and some Linux derivatives. This may be for many, many reasons, including (most often and most unfortunately) licensing. But there is not much anyone working with FreeBSD can do, except create an port, if the license permits. If the license does not permit this software run on FreeBSD -- then probably the only choice is to try and persuade it's author. If it runs on OS X, chances are it will run on FreeBSD with very little effort. (except if it relies heavily on Cocoa) 4) The lack of clustering capabilities. The lack of a clustered filesystem grows more and more important in the area of HPC, where storage systems get spread over a department. I lost track in the development on FreeBSD since around 2003. At the moment, for me personally this issue isn't so important, but in combination with items 1) through 3) and the migration towards Linux (we use prefereably Ubuntu server, some Suse and on some servers CentOS/RedHat, which suffers from the Linux-narrowminded deseas as well, in my opinion, but you'll get support by Dell and others - in times of strangling contracts, a more and more restricted freedom of science in favor of business ... another story ...) Can you
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 AM 11:39:16 David Chisnall wrote: On 2 Jun 2012, at 03:56, Erich Dollansky wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. OpenBSD did this for a while, but they gave up because they weren't doing it well enough to recommend it and it did more harm to users to do it badly than not at all. Ideally, you want to get security fixes for all installed applications, but nothing else, in this model. There are two ways of doing this: I would even accept to get the 'release' ports tree without security fixes just to have a system which is up and running fast after I tried an upgrade like what is happening at the moment with PNG dependent ports. As situations like this are rarely needed, I would not push for a fully secured system. Do not see it too complicated what I want. It is really just a system I can fall back at the spot if things got complicated with with a csup the new ports tree just to get something installed. A user who really wants to run a totally outdated system should know what he/she is doing and not complain when things go wrong. - Back-port security fixes to the version shipped with the base system - Import the security-fixed version into the stable set. The second option has the problem that you identified: if the new version depends on a newer library, then this cascades and you end up needing to import a new version of hundreds of ports. The first option has a much simpler disadvantage: it requires a huge amount of manpower. Companies like Red Hat can do this because they charge their users a lot for this service. We could probably do this if we had enough users willing to pay for the service, or if we restrict it to a set of packages that do their own security backports upstream. The problem with the second option can be alleviated if we make it easier to have multiple versions of libraries installed at the same time (this is something that the PBI system in PC-BSD does, albeit in an ugly hackish way that could be improved significantly with a bit of assistance from rtld). This would be ideal anyway and also most likely avoid the cause for going back. Just keep both versions in the system and let the system decide which one to use. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 09:19:15PM -0700, Freddie Cash wrote: Pardon my ignorance to not knowing what gluster is, but is this conceptually similar to HAST? Similar in concept, but different layers in the storage stack. HAST sits between the physical disks and the filesystem, replicating data between two systems. So, disks -- HAST -- ZFS. Got it, thanks. However, HAST is not specifically ZFS. (Just pointing it out.) Glen ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:01, Erich wrote: I would even accept to get the 'release' ports tree without security fixes just to have a system which is up and running fast after I tried an upgrade like what is happening at the moment with PNG dependent ports. You have this already. Just install the ports tree snapshot from the release... David___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On 02.06.12 10:21, Marc Santhoff wrote: Am Freitag, den 01.06.2012, 13:56 -0400 schrieb Michael R. Wayne: On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 05:03:26AM -0700, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: If you are NOT using FreeBSD for any area or some areas , would you please list those areas with most important first to least important last ? As mentioned by several others, once you have a single applicaiton that demands Windows, you are mostly stuck running windows. I was used to thinking the same way, but today there is VirtualBox and it does very well. More simple applications work fine using wine, that keeps you from having to install a complete Windows-OS. I want to second this. For me, until recently the only Windows computer was an laptop. I was thinking along the same lines (being primary BSD UNIX for everything for over 20 years) - if you need Windows software, run it on Windows. But, I was more and more pissed of this stuff and eventually brought myself an Macbook. Never touched the Windows laptop ever since. Any windows only software that comes across, of any kind, runs in VirtualBox on either FreeBSD or OS X. No issues of any kind. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 12:04:26 David Chisnall wrote: On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:01, Erich wrote: I would even accept to get the 'release' ports tree without security fixes just to have a system which is up and running fast after I tried an upgrade like what is happening at the moment with PNG dependent ports. You have this already. Just install the ports tree snapshot from the release... I know. I just what I would like to get is a direct method also people who are just basic users can use it without many problems. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 02.06.12 12:42, Erich Dollansky wrote: On 02 June 2012 AM 9:14:28 Chris Rees wrote: On Jun 2, 2012 4:04 AM, Erich Dollanskyer...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. Unfortunately this is a massive amount of extra work - we only just keep up with updates as it is. I do not think so. At least not for the first step as I see it. Just make snapshots of the ports tree when the release comes out. These snapshots are with the releases anyway. What I did was very simple. I got the ports tree that comes with the release and installed the system back to the release status. Ok, it was some work for me - maybe not for others - to find this tree. A simple link could help here. I do not know if this is just an opinion which is too optimistic. But this functionality is already here. As I mentioned earlier, FreeBSD is not an end-user product, but rather a software platform and a kit that you can use to assemble pretty much what you can imagine. Here is one example, how to handle the 'port problem'. The example is with BSDRP: http://bsdrp.net/ This is an nanoBSD based system, that you can build yourself. For example, the 31 May 2012 svn code sets this environment variable PORTS_DATE=date=2012.05.31.00.00.00 to pull the ports tree with that particular date (when it was tested to build sucessfuly) It then proceeds to download it's own copy of /usr/src and /usr/ports and uses these to build the complete installation. More or less, controlled environment. The /usr/src of -stable/-current and /usr/ports are in fact moving target. If you are uncomfortable with that, just sync to some date and you will have that date's snapshot and therefore known state. Most people who are bitten by the 'sudden change in ports' are just ignoring this option. You don't have to use the (arguable old) 'release' ports tree. Ports get fixed/adapted for the new version usually months after release. Daniel ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:19, Erich wrote: Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 12:04:26 David Chisnall wrote: On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:01, Erich wrote: I would even accept to get the 'release' ports tree without security fixes just to have a system which is up and running fast after I tried an upgrade like what is happening at the moment with PNG dependent ports. You have this already. Just install the ports tree snapshot from the release... I know. I just what I would like to get is a direct method also people who are just basic users can use it without many problems. Run sysinstall, point it at the release CD / DVD, say 'install ports tree'... Encouraging basic users to run insecure versions of applications, however, is something that I would strongly object to. David___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: [stable 9]Dell R620 Ethernet Ordering
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 06:43:43 PM Sean Bruno wrote: I'm trying to understand the newbus and acpi interactions on this Dell R620 that result in the Broadcom adapter board being probed backwards or just plain out of order in comparison to the connector layout and the linux tg3 driver. We seem to be detecting PCI0:2:0 before PCI0:1:0. This seems odd to me. When I replace the broadcom daughter card with an intel daughter card, this does not show up, so I assume either a malfunction of the Dell ACPI tables or the bge(4) driver. Oof, you confused me. You are detecting bus PCI domain 0 bus 1 after PCI domain 0 bus 2. A dmesg would be more useful here. FreeBSD walks the PCI tree in a deterministic depth-first order, and we enumerate host bridges in the order ACPI enumerates them. Looking at the ACPI dump, you have 3 host bridges, PCI bus 0, and two uncore busses for your CPU sockets. So busses 1 and 2 must be children of bus 0. It would seem that bus 2 comes before bus 1 on PCI bus 0. You can tell this by seeing what the parent pcibX device of busses 1 and 2 are and looking at the address of that pcibX device on PCI bus 0. -- John Baldwin ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 12:50:16 David Chisnall wrote: On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:19, Erich wrote: Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 12:04:26 David Chisnall wrote: On 2 Jun 2012, at 12:01, Erich wrote: I would even accept to get the 'release' ports tree without security fixes just to have a system which is up and running fast after I tried an upgrade like what is happening at the moment with PNG dependent ports. You have this already. Just install the ports tree snapshot from the release... I know. I just what I would like to get is a direct method also people who are just basic users can use it without many problems. Run sysinstall, point it at the release CD / DVD, say 'install ports tree'... how old will the last tree then be? All I want to suggest that this can be downloaded directly via the Internet. Encouraging basic users to run insecure versions of applications, however, is something that I would strongly object to. What will a new user do when faced with this situation? Just go back to what ever system was installed before and keep the fingers off FreeBSD as it seemed too difficult to find a solution for a small problem. It is like selling sharp knifes. There will be always the risk that people will get killed by the knife. But there are still sharp knifes available in shops. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 2:53:48 Daniel Kalchev wrote: You don't have to use the (arguable old) 'release' ports tree. Ports get fixed/adapted for the new version usually months after release. I think we are talking here about two totally different problems. Your hint with sysinstall would do the same when the CD is available. Very, very simple and only for things went wrong. You are thinking of a much more complex solution. I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) Daniel ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
I'll try to be short. I'm using FreeBSD both at servers and as a desktop, but I see struggling of my friends with it in some things. 1. Ports mess. You can very easily render system unusable, or broken if you trying to use latest ports. And then you had to became a port master to fix all. Of course you need a lot of free time, right? :) 2. No decent packet manager (I hope pkgng will make life easier). You can't just upgrade this and that packet and see what's new, and rollback if you don't like somthing . 3. FreeBSD is not a linux - so FreeBSD avoid linuxisms, like KMS etc. And when it became crystal clear that progress is inevitable, we need wait few more years to get new graphics working. Some time ago, I read somewhere on wiki proud phrase We are more linux than linux itself, it was about LSB test or something similar. FreeBSD can deny linux ways, but it's here, and it's widespread standard (at least in comparing with FreeBSD). FreeBSD do really need those fancy new techs, at least which related to X/hardware. XEN is one more thing, which could be attractive, but there's not much progress. I don't say let's rewrite all as in linux. I'm saying about having copatibility layer a bit fresher. 4. NDIS is working, right? Why there's no L(inux)DIS :) For new hardware, like wifi's, networks,webcams,raids etc there some linux drivers. and no FreeBSD drivers. At all. And if you need one - write one or wait please few years until someone look into it. 5. Name public person behind Microsoft? yes, there are one. And from Google? And from Oracle? And from GNU? And from Linux? Human nature is such that any company/big product is replaced in his mind with person, at least partially. And there's no person behind FreeBSD. There are many collaborators, who rarely well known in world as FreeBSD developer. And this is how it's affect reality: - Please, big boss, give me 10mil for new cluster system run on Linux. - What's Linux? - It's product developed for 20 years by Linus, and in recent years got support by many major world companies (long list goes here). - Ah, ok, here you go. - And also, big boss I need 50 thousands for FreeBSD cluster. - FreeBSD? What's this? - Ehm... it's a operating system, developed by many peoples, there are many good progammers (long list goes here) - You better buy a few more linuxes then. That could be PR issue anyway, but dirty politics rules the world, face it. 6. No try-it system for FreeBSD. No official virtual images (PC-BSD will fix the issue). No testing images for major changes, where's nightly builds with latest KDE/QT/KMS/new drivers? There's none, at least none automatic build. Yea, I know that's because there's no decent auto build system of such things. - I'm volunteer to test FreeBSD! - Ok, grab sources here, compile kernel, world, download ports, patch it with area51, try to build something, and rebuild all again (you too early build all, we just updated libXX*)... - Oh... ok. I'm volunteer to test Linux - Grab live image/virtual image, boot and poke programs. - Great, thanks! You can easily be involved in many programs development. Kdenlive - just another example how one program have own infrastructure to provide live images and virtual machine images, so any can try and test it. You could think I'm wrong, but FreeBSD have many problems as project, but it's all fixable. P.S. Of course FreeBSD is great, and I'm using it, and I glad that it here, and all developers are awesome, no offence here ;) -- Regards, Alexander Yerenkow ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
[releng_9 tinderbox] failure on powerpc/powerpc
TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:07 - tinderbox 2.9 running on freebsd-stable.sentex.ca TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:07 - FreeBSD freebsd-stable.sentex.ca 8.2-STABLE FreeBSD 8.2-STABLE #4: Wed Sep 28 13:48:49 UTC 2011 mdtan...@freebsd-stable.sentex.ca:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/server amd64 TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:07 - starting RELENG_9 tinderbox run for powerpc/powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:07 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:39 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2012-06-02 10:02:39 - /usr/bin/csup -z -r 3 -g -L 1 -h cvsup.sentex.ca /tinderbox/RELENG_9/powerpc/powerpc/supfile TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - building world TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 10:03:30 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld World build started on Sat Jun 2 10:03:32 UTC 2012 Rebuilding the temporary build tree stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims stage 1.2: bootstrap tools stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3: cross tools stage 4.1: building includes stage 4.2: building libraries stage 4.3: make dependencies stage 4.4: building everything World build completed on Sat Jun 2 12:43:17 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - generating LINT kernel config TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - /usr/bin/make -B LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - /usr/sbin/config -m LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - building LINT kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 12:43:17 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=LINT Kernel build for LINT started on Sat Jun 2 12:43:17 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything Kernel build for LINT completed on Sat Jun 2 13:04:20 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - building GENERIC kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 13:04:20 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC Kernel build for GENERIC started on Sat Jun 2 13:04:21 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything [...] cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/mp_cpudep.c cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/nexus.c cc -c -x assembler-with-cpp -DLOCORE -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall
[releng_9 tinderbox] failure on powerpc64/powerpc
TB --- 2012-06-02 10:34:13 - tinderbox 2.9 running on freebsd-stable.sentex.ca TB --- 2012-06-02 10:34:13 - FreeBSD freebsd-stable.sentex.ca 8.2-STABLE FreeBSD 8.2-STABLE #4: Wed Sep 28 13:48:49 UTC 2011 mdtan...@freebsd-stable.sentex.ca:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/server amd64 TB --- 2012-06-02 10:34:13 - starting RELENG_9 tinderbox run for powerpc64/powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 10:34:13 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2012-06-02 10:35:01 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2012-06-02 10:35:01 - /usr/bin/csup -z -r 3 -g -L 1 -h cvsup.sentex.ca /tinderbox/RELENG_9/powerpc64/powerpc/supfile TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - building world TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 10:36:05 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld World build started on Sat Jun 2 10:36:06 UTC 2012 Rebuilding the temporary build tree stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims stage 1.2: bootstrap tools stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3: cross tools stage 4.1: building includes stage 4.2: building libraries stage 4.3: make dependencies stage 4.4: building everything stage 5.1: building 32 bit shim libraries World build completed on Sat Jun 2 13:32:03 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - generating LINT kernel config TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - /usr/bin/make -B LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - /usr/sbin/config -m LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - building LINT kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 13:32:03 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=LINT Kernel build for LINT started on Sat Jun 2 13:32:03 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything Kernel build for LINT completed on Sat Jun 2 13:51:04 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - skipping GENERIC kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC64 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - building GENERIC64 kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 13:51:04 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC64 Kernel build for GENERIC64 started on Sat Jun 2 13:51:04 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything [...] cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -mcall-aixdesc -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/nexus.c cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
On 06/02/12 14:47, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) Daniel Even IF the ports tree IS a moving target, updating of UPDATING, for instance, follows most times AFTER the critical ports has been changed/updated and folks started updating their ports without realizing that they have shot themselfs into the foot! Since I'm with FreeBSD, StarOffice, OpenOffice and even now LibreOffice is a MESS! If you need to keep up with STABLE, in most cases due to modern hardware (*), binary packages are NOT provided or if so, they won't work due to some incompatibilities. I witnessed those cases several times and at this moment, our four remaining FreeBSD servers and my personal desktop as well as my private box are rendered unusable in terms of having no LibreOffice since it doesn't compile anymore on FreeBSD 9-STABLE/amd64 and 10-CURRENT/amd64. At the moment, this mess is introduced with a new PNG library. And we are updating on life machines, that means, they are not freshly installed, they have been maintained for several months now. Very often, when compalining about this, I get responses from people installing then the critical software in a virtual machine and/or on newly setup boxes. That doesn't reflect the way the systems have to be maintained. Well, one may argue with me about server and desktop. Comparing Linux (several distros) with FreeBSd and Windows makes the limited adavntages of FreeBSD getting rendered neglegible. We need PowerPoint or a similar office product for presentations, I'm getting strangled by students when using LaTeX and beamer or PowerDot. The pressure from the Windows world is large. (*) It might be true that FreeBSD runs well on older hardware. But when I order hardware from the budget I get, I do not want myself buying outdated hardware. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On 1-6-2012 20:57, Thomas David Rivers wrote: We used to have FreeBSD exclusively on desktops... Now, we have migrated to other desktops (mac) with FreeBSD running the build and file server... Why? Because - the mac updates itself! No pain, no installation, no keeping-up with mailing lists/announcements, just click and its done. Aren't PC-BSD's PBI's working the same way? I know it is their goal. Have you evaluated that? If so, what were your experiences? -- Mel ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: problem with nmap
Have you also recompiled nmap after you installed libpcap. Sorrry this should be a neccesary step. Thanks! After recompiling nmap is starting succesfully! Thank you for your help! ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Why am I, Still subscribed and reading this list ?
Because... at some point it may return to normal without all the bikeshedding and, I run because, I don't run because. The previous threads before this message should have been on a web form or questions@ as they are completely out of control. -- - (2^(N-1)) ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
--- Sab 2/6/12, O. Hartmann ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de ha scritto: Since I'm with FreeBSD, StarOffice, OpenOffice and even now LibreOffice is a MESS! ... Can you be more specific about what is wrong with Apache OpenOffice? best regards, Pedro. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
On Jun 2, 2012 3:19 PM, O. Hartmann ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 06/02/12 14:47, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) Daniel Even IF the ports tree IS a moving target, updating of UPDATING, for instance, follows most times AFTER the critical ports has been changed/updated and folks started updating their ports without realizing that they have shot themselfs into the foot! Not reading UPDATING until there are problems is not the fault of the ports tree; it should be checked every time you update. Of course, many of us forget, but that still doesn't make it anyone else's problem when we do! Chris ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why am I, Still subscribed and reading this list ?
[Reply-To: advocacy@] Jason Hellenthal wrote: The previous threads before this message should have been on a web form or questions@ as they are completely out of control. Assuming you are referring to the recent Why I (don't) use FreeBSD threads: Thank you, I agree. I read the first couple of messages but zoned out pretty quickly. In my opinion this sort of thing is more appropriate on advocacy@ (maybe not so much questions@, although I haven't read the most recent parts of these threads) and/or the forums (hint to OP: the forums are truly awesome, go to http://forums.freebsd.org, select Off-topic and let slip the dogs of chatter!). Fonz -- Obsig: developing a new sig ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
On Jun 2, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Chris Rees wrote: On Jun 2, 2012 3:19 PM, O. Hartmann ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 06/02/12 14:47, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) Daniel Even IF the ports tree IS a moving target, updating of UPDATING, for instance, follows most times AFTER the critical ports has been changed/updated and folks started updating their ports without realizing that they have shot themselfs into the foot! Not reading UPDATING until there are problems is not the fault of the ports tree; it should be checked every time you update. Of course, many of us forget, but that still doesn't make it anyone else's problem when we do! The point he made was actually not a matter of people not reading UPDATING but that UPDATING is oftentimes not updated until after the disruptive/potentially dangerous change has already hit the ports tree. So, even though people check UPDATING, it won't help them because there will be nothing apropos there until maybe days later when someone has decided an UPDATING entry was merited in retrospect. I'm not sure what the solution is for the end user. I know I get somewhat leery of updating my ports if I see a large number of changes coming via portsnap (like the 4000+ that accompanied the recent libpng upgrade) and there is nothing new in UPDATING (which, happily wasn't the case with the libpng upgrade). Usually, I wait a while for the dust to clear and an UPDATING entry potentially to appear. Maybe the solution is to track the freebsd-ports mailing list get get advanced warning of large changes, but that would mean following another high-volume list. :-( Cheers, Paul. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:11:06 -0400 , Paul Mather wrote: I'm not sure what the solution is for the end user. I know I get somewhat leery of updating my ports if I see a large number of changes coming via portsnap (like the 4000+ that accompanied the recent libpng upgrade) and there is nothing new in UPDATING (which, happily wasn't the case with the libpng upgrade). Usually, I wait a while for the dust to clear and an UPDATING entry potentially to appear. If you're concerned about things breaking, don't follow the bleeding edge. This seems to be common sense. Maybe the solution is to track the freebsd-ports mailing list get get advanced warning of large changes, but that would mean following another high-volume list. :-( And any decent mailer setup can filter those messages for you, leaving only the messages relevant to ports you're interested in. There are also systems like gmane which provide an NNTP feed for mailing lists. Combined with a newsreader with good killfile / scoring features, it shouldn't be hard to keep up. -- Thanks and best regards, Chris Nehren ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
Hi! The point he made was actually not a matter of people not reading UPDATING but that UPDATING is oftentimes not updated until after the disruptive/potentially dangerous change has already hit the ports tree. I'm not sure what the solution is for the end user. We have our reference hosts, do daily portupgrades and on those days where all looks fine, pkg_create the whole collection and pkg_delete/pkg_add to production hosts. Still not perfect, but 'good enough'. -- p...@opsec.eu+49 171 3101372 8 years to go ! ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
Hi! For example if one wants an e-mail server, that is better served in the long run by IMAP+MTA than any form of Exchange, because you are not tied to one single platform and that vendor's lunacy. In the field, many customers are drawn into the world of Exchange and related technologies because of groupware features that are not easy to replicate without it. Once they are in that world, it's very tough to climb back out. -- p...@opsec.eu+49 171 3101372 8 years to go ! ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
On 2 June 2012 10:42, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: Hi, On 02 June 2012 AM 9:14:28 Chris Rees wrote: On Jun 2, 2012 4:04 AM, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. Unfortunately this is a massive amount of extra work - we only just keep up with updates as it is. I do not think so. At least not for the first step as I see it. Just make snapshots of the ports tree when the release comes out. These snapshots are with the releases anyway. What I did was very simple. I got the ports tree that comes with the release and installed the system back to the release status. Ok, it was some work for me - maybe not for others - to find this tree. A simple link could help here. I do not know if this is just an opinion which is too optimistic. What I know is that all the security fixes which appeared since the release are not in there. If I have the choice between three days or more of compiling and known security holes, I will take the security holes, make the client happy and upgrade after the work for the client is finished. I would not expect that FreeBSD will provide more than this. Then you already have all you need-- RELEASEs use packages compiled at time of release if you use pkg_add -r, and the ports tree is tagged at release if you wish to get a 'snapshot'. Note that you will not get any official support if you choose to use a tagged tree :) Chris ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
[releng_9 tinderbox] failure on powerpc/powerpc
TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:18 - tinderbox 2.9 running on freebsd-stable.sentex.ca TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:18 - FreeBSD freebsd-stable.sentex.ca 8.2-STABLE FreeBSD 8.2-STABLE #4: Wed Sep 28 13:48:49 UTC 2011 mdtan...@freebsd-stable.sentex.ca:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/server amd64 TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:18 - starting RELENG_9 tinderbox run for powerpc/powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:18 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:48 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2012-06-02 19:20:48 - /usr/bin/csup -z -r 3 -g -L 1 -h cvsup.sentex.ca /tinderbox/RELENG_9/powerpc/powerpc/supfile TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - building world TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 19:21:51 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld World build started on Sat Jun 2 19:21:52 UTC 2012 Rebuilding the temporary build tree stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims stage 1.2: bootstrap tools stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3: cross tools stage 4.1: building includes stage 4.2: building libraries stage 4.3: make dependencies stage 4.4: building everything World build completed on Sat Jun 2 21:59:15 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - generating LINT kernel config TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - /usr/bin/make -B LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - /usr/sbin/config -m LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - building LINT kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 21:59:15 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=LINT Kernel build for LINT started on Sat Jun 2 21:59:15 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything Kernel build for LINT completed on Sat Jun 2 22:20:30 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - building GENERIC kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 22:20:30 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC Kernel build for GENERIC started on Sat Jun 2 22:20:30 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything [...] cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/mp_cpudep.c cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/nexus.c cc -c -x assembler-with-cpp -DLOCORE -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall
[releng_9 tinderbox] failure on powerpc64/powerpc
TB --- 2012-06-02 19:55:20 - tinderbox 2.9 running on freebsd-stable.sentex.ca TB --- 2012-06-02 19:55:20 - FreeBSD freebsd-stable.sentex.ca 8.2-STABLE FreeBSD 8.2-STABLE #4: Wed Sep 28 13:48:49 UTC 2011 mdtan...@freebsd-stable.sentex.ca:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/server amd64 TB --- 2012-06-02 19:55:20 - starting RELENG_9 tinderbox run for powerpc64/powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 19:55:21 - cleaning the object tree TB --- 2012-06-02 19:56:10 - cvsupping the source tree TB --- 2012-06-02 19:56:10 - /usr/bin/csup -z -r 3 -g -L 1 -h cvsup.sentex.ca /tinderbox/RELENG_9/powerpc64/powerpc/supfile TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - building world TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 19:57:23 - /usr/bin/make -B buildworld World build started on Sat Jun 2 19:57:24 UTC 2012 Rebuilding the temporary build tree stage 1.1: legacy release compatibility shims stage 1.2: bootstrap tools stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3: cross tools stage 4.1: building includes stage 4.2: building libraries stage 4.3: make dependencies stage 4.4: building everything stage 5.1: building 32 bit shim libraries World build completed on Sat Jun 2 22:50:31 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - generating LINT kernel config TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - /usr/bin/make -B LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - /usr/sbin/config -m LINT TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - building LINT kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 22:50:31 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=LINT Kernel build for LINT started on Sat Jun 2 22:50:31 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything Kernel build for LINT completed on Sat Jun 2 23:09:33 UTC 2012 TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - skipping GENERIC kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - cd /src/sys/powerpc/conf TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - /usr/sbin/config -m GENERIC64 TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - building GENERIC64 kernel TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - CROSS_BUILD_TESTING=YES TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/obj TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - SRCCONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - TARGET=powerpc TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - TARGET_ARCH=powerpc64 TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - TZ=UTC TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - __MAKE_CONF=/dev/null TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - cd /src TB --- 2012-06-02 23:09:33 - /usr/bin/make -B buildkernel KERNCONF=GENERIC64 Kernel build for GENERIC64 started on Sat Jun 2 23:09:33 UTC 2012 stage 1: configuring the kernel stage 2.1: cleaning up the object tree stage 2.2: rebuilding the object tree stage 2.3: build tools stage 3.1: making dependencies stage 3.2: building everything [...] cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000 -msoft-float -Wa,-many -msoft-float -mno-altivec -mcall-aixdesc -ffreestanding -fstack-protector -Werror /src/sys/powerpc/aim/nexus.c cc -c -O -pipe -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/src/sys -I/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/src/sys/contrib/libfdt -D_KERNEL -DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common -finline-limit=15000 --param inline-unit-growth=100
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
You wrote: On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 05:20:39PM +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: Maybe FreeBSD should consider migrating to pkgsrc? I'm not arguing that your other points are invalid (in particular, I agree that the xorg change was really painful, and for a long time amd64 lagged i386 badly), but there is one very major blocker for this particular idea. If you browse the following URL: http://wiki.freebsd.org/PackageSystemsComparison You'll see that pkgsrc is around 12k packages. Although our graph is stale, per the portsmon/FreshPorts URLs, we're approaching 24k ports. So: while it's been suggested before, it's not really workable. I am not in a position to know, but it seems to me the number of ports at some point isn't that big of a deal vs. how well the ports build, and on how many architectures they're available. First, is it possible to automate the conversion of ports to pkgsrc? If not, how much of it could be automated? How many of those 24,000 ports are actively maintained and build correctly? If they're all active and work then yeah I think everyone would agree it would take a lot of convincing to get those maintainers to switch to another system, but does anyone know how many of those guys aren't *already* maintaining pkgsrc packages for the same app? Often one maintainer does packaging for multiple BSD and/or Linux distros. So there could be lots of overlap and just looking at the two numbers you posted doesn't really tell the whole story. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 3:47:27 Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) I know. I save me as many versions as possible during a release just as a fall back. I did not do this before and got hit several times when I believed that all I need is the installation of a small program. Anyway, the team knows the version of the tree used for the release they are working on. Making this ports tree easily available could help to overcome some problems. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
On Sun, Jun 03, 2012 at 01:43:43AM +0200, Fritz Wuehler wrote: So there could be lots of overlap and just looking at the two numbers you posted doesn't really tell the whole story. No, I agree that it doesn't. I was just trying to add an aside, and point out that the task would not be trivial. Since I'm heavily invested in FreeBSD ports I think I need to step back and let other folks comment in this thread. mcl ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD ?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 4:07:23 Alexander Yerenkow wrote: I'll try to be short. I'm using FreeBSD both at servers and as a desktop, but I see struggling of my friends with it in some things. 1. Ports mess. You can very easily render system unusable, or broken if you trying to use latest ports. And then you had to became a port master to fix all. Of course you need a lot of free time, right? :) this seems to be ignored. I have just a small discussion in the thread Why are you using FreeBSD about this. It would be already a step forward to help people out of this fix when the ports tree of release would be easily available. 2. No decent packet manager (I hope pkgng will make life easier). You can't just upgrade this and that packet and see what's new, and rollback if you don't like somthing . I really hope this will never come. Why? It will kill make install. Make install is the key to FreeBSD. I believe a better solution would be versioning of the ports tree. When the ports tree compiles fully, it can be saved and its version number incremented. I do not believe that much more would be needed. Of course, we have then a huge number of versions. Would it matter? Give the ports tree the major version number of the latest release. So, at the moment it would be 10. Increment then the minor every hour if you want. Just make sure that the ports tree can be downloaded for some time under this version number. 3. FreeBSD is not a linux - so FreeBSD avoid linuxisms, like KMS etc. And when it became crystal clear that progress is inevitable, we need wait few more years to get new graphics working. Some time ago, I read somewhere on wiki proud phrase We are more linux than linux itself, it was about LSB test or something similar. FreeBSD can deny linux ways, but it's here, and it's widespread standard (at least in comparing with FreeBSD). FreeBSD do really need those fancy new techs, at least which related to X/hardware. XEN is one more thing, which could be attractive, but there's not much progress. I don't say let's rewrite all as in linux. I'm saying about having copatibility layer a bit fresher. Have you ever worked with Linux? They have so many new features which are pushed like crazy until they are forgotten again. But I agree. Something can be done about X. 5. Name public person behind Microsoft? yes, there are one. And from Google? And from Oracle? And from GNU? And from Linux? Human nature is such that any company/big product is replaced in his mind with person, at least partially. And there's no person behind FreeBSD. There are many collaborators, who rarely well known in world as FreeBSD developer. And this is how it's affect reality: I think that there is a big misunderstanding in this when it comes to Linux. Yes, there is one guy but he does not have the money. Others have the money. - Please, big boss, give me 10mil for new cluster system run on Linux. - What's Linux? - It's product developed for 20 years by Linus, and in recent years got support by many major world companies (long list goes here). It was the luck of Linus that he used GPL and somebody announced an OS but did not have a kernel. P.S. Of course FreeBSD is great, and I'm using it, and I glad that it here, and all developers are awesome, no offence here ;) It is also the question if this would make sense in the spirit of FreeBSD. I have to run Fedora on one machine. The fast development there comes with a price. I installed Fedora and the applications I needed before I started to travel. I have had the chance to upgrade after 2 weeks. Hey, this was like Windows. Fedora downloaded more than 600 MB after just two weeks. I know, it can be even worse on FreeBSD when things like jpeg or png change. Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 4:18:45 O. Hartmann wrote: On 06/02/12 14:47, Daniel Kalchev wrote: On 02.06.12 15:32, Erich wrote: I know that the ports tree is a moving target. But it stops moving during the release period. This could be used to give a fall back solution. Or do I see this really too simple? The ports tree is a moving target during release periods still, although there are efforts to make movements smaller. This is why, after a release it suddenly moves more :) Daniel Even IF the ports tree IS a moving target, updating of UPDATING, for instance, follows most times AFTER the critical ports has been changed/updated and folks started updating their ports without realizing that they have shot themselfs into the foot! it is worse when people suddenly need something they did not install before. Since I'm with FreeBSD, StarOffice, OpenOffice and even now LibreOffice is a MESS! If you need to keep up with STABLE, in most cases due to StarOffice a mess? Not compared to OpenOffice! I cannot remember that I have had such problems with StarOffice. As I used StarOffice to write cheques those days, people getting money from me would have made a lot of noise. I stopped doing this when OpenOffice came into the picture. modern hardware (*), binary packages are NOT provided or if so, they won't work due to some incompatibilities. Isn't the lack of a binary package the proof that something is difficult to compile? I witnessed those cases several times and at this moment, our four remaining FreeBSD servers and my personal desktop as well as my private box are rendered unusable in terms of having no LibreOffice since it doesn't compile anymore on FreeBSD 9-STABLE/amd64 and 10-CURRENT/amd64. Can I recommend jails to you? I compile ports in a jail. When everything went through, I move this outside and install it. If something does not compile, I keep normally the old ports tree. This is the main cause why I run the in serious problems when I need a new port which needs an update of the ports tree. At the moment, this mess is introduced with a new PNG library. And we are updating on life machines, that means, they are not freshly Have fun with it. I have a running FreeBSD and will not touch the ports tree before this all has settled. installed, they have been maintained for several months now. Very often, when compalining about this, I get responses from people installing then the critical software in a virtual machine and/or on newly setup boxes. That doesn't reflect the way the systems have to be maintained. This gets even more complicated. Try once to install a new machine, bring an old machine to the same state and then install on the new machine the same software which actually runs on the old one. This is something which I never managed. There is always something missing. Well, one may argue with me about server and desktop. Comparing Linux (several distros) with FreeBSd and Windows makes the limited adavntages of FreeBSD getting rendered neglegible. We need PowerPoint or a similar office product for presentations, I'm getting strangled by students when using LaTeX and beamer or PowerDot. The pressure from the Windows world is large. You forgot to mention Scribus. It is a fantastic tool for people who know how to handle it. But your are cut off if you cannot read the files coming from other people. Just for the fun. If you get Microsoft-Formats from a client and send it then back to the same client but in a different department, it is not sure that they can read their 'own' files. (*) It might be true that FreeBSD runs well on older hardware. But when I order hardware from the budget I get, I do not want myself buying outdated hardware. FreeBSD runs also well on new hardware if it is not a notebook. What I really do not understand in this whole discussion is very simple. Is it just a few people who run into problems like this or is this simply ignored by the people who set the strategy for FreeBSD? I mention since yeares here that putting version numbers onto the port tree would solve many of these problems. All I get as an answer is that it is not possible. I think that this should be easily possible with the limitation that older versions do not have security fixes. Yes, but of what help is a security fix if there is no running port for the fix? Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 2:56:01 Chris Nehren wrote: On Sat, Jun 02, 2012 at 14:11:06 -0400 , Paul Mather wrote: I'm not sure what the solution is for the end user. I know I get somewhat leery of updating my ports if I see a large number of changes coming via portsnap (like the 4000+ that accompanied the recent libpng upgrade) and there is nothing new in UPDATING (which, happily wasn't the case with the libpng upgrade). Usually, I wait a while for the dust to clear and an UPDATING entry potentially to appear. If you're concerned about things breaking, don't follow the bleeding edge. This seems to be common sense. is there a second version of the ports tree available? What is the response of the list if you want to install a new package with you old ports tree? Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You NOT Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 9:50:22 Kurt Jaeger wrote: Hi! The point he made was actually not a matter of people not reading UPDATING but that UPDATING is oftentimes not updated until after the disruptive/potentially dangerous change has already hit the ports tree. I'm not sure what the solution is for the end user. We have our reference hosts, do daily portupgrades and on those days where all looks fine, pkg_create the whole collection and pkg_delete/pkg_add to production hosts. Still not perfect, but 'good enough'. isn't this what I just suggested to be done by the team? Give the ports tree a new version number and people can fall back to this then. Isn't this solution too simple to be done? Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Why Are You Using FreeBSD?
Hi, On 02 June 2012 PM 10:52:48 Chris Rees wrote: On 2 June 2012 10:42, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: On 02 June 2012 AM 9:14:28 Chris Rees wrote: On Jun 2, 2012 4:04 AM, Erich Dollansky er...@alogreentechnologies.com wrote: But I have to mention one disadvantage. The ports are in no way linked to the releases. This leads to situations in which a small change in a basic library will result in a complete update of the installed ports. I expressed this already many time here. It would be of advantage if the ports tree would also have tags like the base system itself. Unfortunately this is a massive amount of extra work - we only just keep up with updates as it is. I do not think so. At least not for the first step as I see it. Just make snapshots of the ports tree when the release comes out. These snapshots are with the releases anyway. What I did was very simple. I got the ports tree that comes with the release and installed the system back to the release status. Ok, it was some work for me - maybe not for others - to find this tree. A simple link could help here. I do not know if this is just an opinion which is too optimistic. What I know is that all the security fixes which appeared since the release are not in there. If I have the choice between three days or more of compiling and known security holes, I will take the security holes, make the client happy and upgrade after the work for the client is finished. I would not expect that FreeBSD will provide more than this. Then you already have all you need-- RELEASEs use packages compiled at time of release if you use pkg_add -r, and the ports tree is tagged at release if you wish to get a 'snapshot'. I have it. Yes, but how difficult is this to get for others? Note that you will not get any official support if you choose to use a tagged tree :) When you can chose between a running system and a supported system which does not work, which would you take? Erich ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
