Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 6, 2008 1:17 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 We basically agree. I think the key here is the definition of medieval and catalan. As I understand, medieval in Freeciv is used for a nation that existed at some time, but isn't independent nowadays. Since there isn't a cultural category (after all, culture and language is what all these cities have in common), medieval is the closest we have. And, indeed, during the Middle Ages these cities formed a nation (at least culturally, and, to some degree, also politically). Sure, there are a few cities in the ruleset that are not Catalan, but the King of the Crown of Aragon, who happened to live in Barcelona, ruled them. And the language spoken there is Catalan or some variant of it (I don't like the word dialect because it implies some hierarchy among different variants) Er... that's kinda the point of contention: what exactly does catalan.ruleset represent? The Counties/Principality/Region/Autonomy of Catalonia, the crown of Aragon, or the Països Catalans? It's an important question to determine, because the ruleset name and the first few definition point towards the first, the medieval moniker points to the second, and the city list (as currently exists) points to the third, explicitly so. The city list would be pretty useful for a ruleset for the Crown of Aragon, provided that cities from Aragon (Kingdom/Region/Autonomy) are added (Huesca, Zaragoza, Teruel, Sos, Jaca, etcétera). BTW, I had an idea that might be good or might be utter crap. Joan rightly states that grouping the current catalan ruleset as fictional, as I proposed, is too drastic. So, how about creating a new category, political or something like that, for rulesets that describe non-independent countries that some people/parties want to create? Països Catalans would be a natural fit for this, as would be a kurdistan ruleset. -- Miguel Farah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 6, 2008 2:27 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Right, let's forget about present-day politics or the whole thing will get really complicated. History is what it is. Let's leave it like that. If everybody agrees, I'll add a couple Andorran cities to the ruleset. That was a good idea. Did you see my proposed Andorran city list? -- Miguel Farah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 6, 2008 1:44 PM, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand. But... if we were to keep catalan.ruleset as medieval, it would necessarily refer to the Principality of Catalonia, so the only cities it could contain would be the ones from Catalonia proper, Catalonia Nord and perhaps the Franja Ponent (see my previous post). (heavy sigh) No, apparently you don't understand. We don't distinguish between the Roman Republic and Empire, in our current rulesets. Yeah, I understand. The point is that the current catalan.ruleset contains cities that are not catalan (as in part of Catalunya) and have never been so (cities from the Kingdom/Region/Autonomy of Valencia, etc.). They're there because they would form part of the Països Catalans that some catalan nationalists advocate. [...] Apparently, Valencians, Majorcans, Andorrans et alia became Catalan. And Not exactly. Catalans resettled Valencia and the Balearic Islands. So it's more like catalans became valencians and majorcans. still speak something recognizably Catalan many hundreds of years later. Not even the Roman Empire can claim that! Those cities belong. Not really... the disctintion between Catalonia and the concept of Països Catalans needs to be made. -- Miguel Farah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 6, 2008 8:04 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I have also noticed that one of the cities in the catalan list is not really Catalan. Tolosa (Toulouse, in its French name) was Occitan. Occitans and Catalans were traditional allies, and there were lots of ties between the two nations, but they never had the same ruler. In fact, Vielha is another city of Occitan culture, but it has been administratively Catalan for centuries, and now Catalan, Spanish and Occitan are spoken there. So, Vielha stays. I concur. By the way, Occitania is another nation worth including in Freeciv: full of legends about the Holy Grail; where troubadours flourished and spread the Occitan poems all over Europe, ... How this never occured to me, I'll never understand. Joan, you're brighter than me. Let's work on it! When we're done, I'll make a campaign playing Occitania and Catalunya against the evil French! :-D -- Miguel Farah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 8, 2008 7:42 AM, Daniel Markstedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone. I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply European. Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the default ruleset. I concur. Your cultural group name is better than my political idea. -- Miguel Farah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
