[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #9, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

>> As an alternative to SEE_INSIDE, what would people think of a
>> server option where you always know where your own borders are,
>> but other players' are fogged?
> That sounds like an improvement to current situation
=> patch #6518.

>> (And shared vision shares knowledge of borders.) 
> Why?
Discussion continued in patch #6518.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #7, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

This is still bothering me. I'd like more rulesets to used foggedborders by
default, but I feel I can't recommend it due to the issue described here.

As an alternative to SEE_INSIDE, what would people think of a server option
where you always know where your _own_ borders are, but other players' are
fogged?
(And shared vision shares knowledge of borders.)

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #8, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

 As an alternative to SEE_INSIDE, what would people think of a
 server option where you always know where your own borders are,
 but other players' are fogged?

That sounds like an improvement to current situation (unlike the SEE_INSIDE
solution, that just trades one problem to another)

 (And shared vision shares knowledge of borders.)

You mean also those tiles that are not actually seen by the shared vision
giver, but for which borders are known regardless? Why? I don't think there's
even implementation cleanliness argument for this.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #6, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

 why is it that some borders are permanently visible while 
 others are ephemeral and will disappear from the map when 
 fogged? This behavior seems to be random.
So, this was probably bug #18588. The last few comments are a digression on
that.

So, this ticket is back to whether borders=SEE_INSIDE is a sensible default
accompaniment to foggedborders. I still wouldn't play without it, but two
experienced Freecivers disagreed, so...

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Update of bug #17301 (project freeciv):

  Status:  Ready For Test = Need Info  
 Planned Release:   2.3.0 =


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Matthias Pfafferodt]

Follow-up Comment #5, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

  why is it that some borders are permanently visible while 
  others are ephemeral and will disappear from the map when 
  fogged? 
 
 That sounds like a bug to me -- I wouldn't expect borders to
 disappear when fogged. This isn't a behaviour I've observed, but
 mostly I've been playing with SEE_INSIDE. Do you have a
 savegame? (Is this related to bug #17100 somehow?) 

I think this is related to border changes in the same turn. If you see some
border but move your unit away in the same turn, the border changes are not
saved in the fog of war. IMHO, the border status is saved in the fog of war
only after a turn change.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #4, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

 why is it that some borders are permanently visible while 
 others are ephemeral and will disappear from the map when 
 fogged?
That sounds like a bug to me -- I wouldn't expect borders to disappear when
fogged. This isn't a behaviour I've observed, but mostly I've been playing
with SEE_INSIDE. Do you have a savegame? (Is this related to bug #17100
somehow?)

Back to the subject of this ticket: if SEE_INSIDE is too powerful, perhaps a
compromise would be for you to be able to see your own[*] borders unfogged,
but everyone else's would remain fogged? That way you're in no doubt whether a
tile is in your territory, but you don't get instant intelligence about
foreign borders. (You might see the effect of a foreign city encroaching on
your own borders, but that seems reasonable.) This could be another setting
for 'foggedborders'.

[*] and perhaps others' in certain circumstances, such as shared vision.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Daniel Markstedt]

Follow-up Comment #3, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

I'd agree with Jacob here that the current behavior is confusing -why is it
that some borders are permanently visible while others are ephemeral and will
disappear from the map when fogged? This behavior seems to be random.

Note in screenshot how a fragment of your borders are revealed by the
explorer when approaching a city. When moving away from the city again the
borders may or may not disappear from view again.

(file #11583)
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Additional Item Attachment:

File name: confusingborders.jpg   Size:49 KB


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

URL:
  http://gna.org/bugs/?17301

 Summary: Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders'
without borders=SEE_INSIDE
 Project: Freeciv
Submitted by: jtn
Submitted on: Sun Dec 12 15:32:51 2010
Category: rulesets
Severity: 3 - Normal
Priority: 5 - Normal
  Status: Ready For Test
 Assigned to: jtn
Originator Email: 
 Open/Closed: Open
 Release: 
 Discussion Lock: Any
Operating System: None
 Planned Release: 2.3.0

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Details:

The experimental ruleset enables the 'foggedborders' setting by default.

However, the game default for 'borders' is BORDERS_ENABLED. I don't think
this is a good combination, as your own borders likely extend outside your
vision, so it's possible not to see your *own* borders change, which is
confusing. For instance, you can attempt to paradrop to a square that you
thought was inside your borders but turns out not to be.

I think that 'borders' should default to BORDERS_SEE_INSIDE (see everything
inside borders) when 'foggedborders' is enabled -- I think this means you
should have an accurate idea of your own borders. Attached a patch which
implements this override in the 'experimental' ruleset.




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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Jacob Nevins]

Additional Item Attachment, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

File name: trunk-S2_3-experimental-borders.diff Size:0 KB


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[Matthias Pfafferodt]

Follow-up Comment #1, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

Personaly I don't like the 'see inside' option as it revals tiles without a
unit going where.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #17301] Experimental ruleset enables 'foggedborders' without borders=SEE_INSIDE

[pepeto]

Follow-up Comment #2, bug #17301 (project freeciv):

 I don't think this is a good combination, as your own borders
 likely extend outside your vision, so it's possible not to see
 your own borders change, which is confusing. For instance, you
 can attempt to paradrop to a square that you thought was inside
 your borders but turns out not to be.

I agree except about it is not a good combination. I think it is correct as
it is now.


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