Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Gerry Hickman wrote: Hi, Regarding the MS install issue, one could do something like format with FreeDOS format, then use FreeDOS sys to install MS-DOS files/bootsector via its /UPDATEBS (and obtained by its /DUMPBS, winimage, any other bootsector extracting program, or even from a disk image), etc. Yes, that's the bit we're trying to get working, but I don't see how these ideas can work? I'm not saying they won't work, I'm just saying I don't see how at this point in time - see each idea in turn: 1. WinImage will be running on Windows, and the boot sector will be for a floppy or have geometry of the drive in your windows computer? It doesn't know you're suddenly going to try and write it to a brand-new hard drive under FreeDOS?! 2. /DUMPBS, yes but where will we get the BS to dump? Chicken and Egg? 3. "Any other bootsector extracting program", yes but extracted from where - we can extract from a floppy to get "geometry independent" Microsoft boot sector, but will this be any use to us for a 2Gb FAT16 hard drive? 4. "Even from a disk image", yes but all hard disks have different geometry so how do we know it will work perfectly for all future hard disks? I haven't examined MS sys to see if it does anything special, but basically you need to install MS to a partition on a hard drive (any hd, any size more-or-less); once for FAT16 and once for FAT32; and extract that boot sector. The very 1st part of the boot sector contains a BPB which indicates the geometry of the drive (this will be wrong for all but identical drives), but that is ok. The key is for the new hard drive to format it (which will set up the proper BPB and unneeded boot code -- which may do nothing, print the not bootable message, or try to boot something). Now run sys with the (to be added shortly) /UPDATEBS option and the boot sector you saved earlier (either the FAT16 or FAT32 one as appropriate) to write it to the drive, but keep the BPB information as set by the formatting (ie ignoring the BPB in the boot sector file extracted and using the one that matches the drive). [For FAT12 same thing, but a floppy image, and really why?] It seems we need SYS (or FORMAT) to be able to read a boilerplate Microsoft boot sector somehow supplied by the end user, add geometry information and write it to the partition in question. If a floppy can be used as a base, this should be quite easy, but if it can't I don't see how we can generate a compatible boot sector. Mind you I haven't tested the above nor examined MS sys/bootsectors to verify; but I believe they behave similar to the FreeDOS ones, in that they are largely generic, with a few included in sys (and for MS, also in format) to accommodate FAT12/16/32; not sure if all are combined CHS/LBA or separate ones there, but I think combined. So you can extract it from those tools or more easily simply run the tool on each of the needed cases (FAT types). One thing that's probably not been discussed thus far, is that as far as I know, you can also use FAT32 with Win95/98 boot sector under pure real-mode Microsoft, and Windows will _still_ install correctly WITHOUT the dual-boot issue...so perhaps this is the route to pursue - it avoids all the legacy FAT16 stuff. It also gets round issues such as IO.SYS having to reside in a certain location. FAT32 is a little more complicated, as for MS it is multiple sectors. The other issue I am ignoring is licensing; to use a MS boot sector, I presume you need the license to the corresponding OS, but that is for the end user to ensure, as the options for FD sys can be used for any OS, not just MS. So all we need to do is: 1. FD FDISK (FAT32 partition and make active) 2. FD FORMAT FAT32 (/a to get 4k cluster size) 3. FD SYS (tell it to grab Win9x boot sector from user) 4. Start Windows Installer and off it goes Simple:) yep (except I'm not the one who has to write the program) its all already written, I just need to add the glue logic to sys for a user supplied boot sector instead of using compiled in one (something I've been planning anyway). :-) Jeremy --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Hi, Regarding the MS install issue, one could do something like format with FreeDOS format, then use FreeDOS sys to install MS-DOS files/bootsector via its /UPDATEBS (and obtained by its /DUMPBS, winimage, any other bootsector extracting program, or even from a disk image), etc. Yes, that's the bit we're trying to get working, but I don't see how these ideas can work? I'm not saying they won't work, I'm just saying I don't see how at this point in time - see each idea in turn: 1. WinImage will be running on Windows, and the boot sector will be for a floppy or have geometry of the drive in your windows computer? It doesn't know you're suddenly going to try and write it to a brand-new hard drive under FreeDOS?! 2. /DUMPBS, yes but where will we get the BS to dump? Chicken and Egg? 3. "Any other bootsector extracting program", yes but extracted from where - we can extract from a floppy to get "geometry independent" Microsoft boot sector, but will this be any use to us for a 2Gb FAT16 hard drive? 4. "Even from a disk image", yes but all hard disks have different geometry so how do we know it will work perfectly for all future hard disks? It seems we need SYS (or FORMAT) to be able to read a boilerplate Microsoft boot sector somehow supplied by the end user, add geometry information and write it to the partition in question. If a floppy can be used as a base, this should be quite easy, but if it can't I don't see how we can generate a compatible boot sector. One thing that's probably not been discussed thus far, is that as far as I know, you can also use FAT32 with Win95/98 boot sector under pure real-mode Microsoft, and Windows will _still_ install correctly WITHOUT the dual-boot issue...so perhaps this is the route to pursue - it avoids all the legacy FAT16 stuff. It also gets round issues such as IO.SYS having to reside in a certain location. So all we need to do is: 1. FD FDISK (FAT32 partition and make active) 2. FD FORMAT FAT32 (/a to get 4k cluster size) 3. FD SYS (tell it to grab Win9x boot sector from user) 4. Start Windows Installer and off it goes Simple:) (except I'm not the one who has to write the program) -- Gerry Hickman (London UK) --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Bernd Blaauw wrote: Kenneth J. Davis schreef: It is documented, within kernel source doc directory and at http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/docs/sys.htm Strange that it says WinME is unsupported, and doesn't mention if Win9x FAT16/32 bootsector works or is (still) broken. somewhere 'segent' --> 'segment' WinME is special since MS partially crippled it. I'm not sure if it works asis or only if you use the emergency boot disk version; from sys' standpoint it is treated as Win9x (has same boot requirements), but there is no intention to add any special code for it. But yes the Fat16 bootsector is still broken (I think I need to drop about 9 more bytes from my current shared Fat12/Fat16 all DOS bootsector [patched by sys with specific instructions to fit the selected DOS]. Technically Fat12 is broke to, but because the FAT is small enough it still works. looks like I confused SAVEBS with BACKUPBS, my apologies. :-) I added them and I still have to look them up I need to verify that the description for /RESTORBS is correct (does not modify it only writes it to disk. Which if that is the case then I need to add another option, perhaps /UPDATEBS which will take a bootsector supplied by the user same as /RESTORBS, but will update the geometry information in the BPB. [/RESTORBS may do that, in which case it will need changing to reflect the documentation and new switch added]. To summarize for all those wondering about these switches, /BACKUPBS indicates that when sys works as usual, it will save the existing boot sector prior to any modifications that would occur /DUMPBS does the same action as /BACKUPBS, but exits without doing the normal sys actions (ie just save current boot sector to a file) /RESTORBS reverses any actions sys did to the bootsector by restoring the bootsector saved by either /BACKUPBS or /DUMPBS to be added /UPDATEBS would take the bootsector as saved by /DUMPBS or possibly /BACKUPBS and adjust its geometry information to match to drive applied to; so in theory you could apply vendor X's boot sector originally saved from disk A to disk B and it would boot [where disk A and disk B are do not have identical geometry]. Regarding the MS install issue, one could do something like format with FreeDOS format, then use FreeDOS sys to install MS-DOS files/bootsector via its /UPDATEBS (and obtained by its /DUMPBS, winimage, any other bootsector extracting program, or even from a disk image), etc. /OEM:XX where XX determines which DOS you want to boot; it chooses/alters the bootsector to be compatible with the given DOS. For FreeDOS all that is really required is passing boot drive in BX and loading full kernel (Enhanced DR-DOS is similar, except uses DX), and MS/PC DOS have a heap of expectations (less so in newer releases). The AUTO option (which is the default) determines based on which files are present (with a hard coded list, the order of which determines the one selected should multiple kernels be present); however due to the similarities, EDR-DOS will be used instead of PC-DOS so PC-DOS must always be manually selected. /OEM:AUTO usually will mean FreeDOS is preferred, yes. When you want to force writing a FreeDOS bootsector , use /OEM:FD /OEM:MS and OEM:W9x are difficult to use, as you cannot determine in batchfile or commandline when looking at the system files which operating system is used. Only thing you can determine it's Windows instead of MSDOS is if you see IO.SYS on a fat32 partition. does this imply you think an /OEM:?? that indicates generically MS DOS (version 6 or earlier and win9x DOS version 7+)? What two letters abbreviation would you suggest? I'd prefer not removing W9x and merging them both into MS; but will if the consensus is this is preferred (since the filenames are the same it is unlikely for both to be on the same disk; but if they were using alternate names how would a user select the correct one?) Bernd Jeremy --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Gerry Hickman wrote: Kenneth J. Davis wrote: It is documented, within kernel source doc directory and at http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/docs/sys.htm This is very nice, but how do people find it from either FreeDOS.org or fdos.org (the sites we were given). I know, bunches of stuff spread out... Anyway, for a while now (since both are hosted in cvs there) both FreeCom and the Kernel have their own sourceforge pages http://freedos.sourceforge.net/freecom/ and http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/ respectively; which are mentioned on the FreeDOS sourceforge page http://freedos.sourceforge.net/sourceforge.php which one finds from the link on the main page (any mirror) titled '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' under 'Developers' section. The kernel page on sourceforge is the one I try to give to people to go to 1st as it has useful links and more importantly whoever maintains the kernel is likely to use it (so in the future that url is likely to still work); of course its easier for me to update my own site, so from there I redirect users to my fdos.org site. :-) Once I get around to making a proper release of latest sys (v3.6 or so) then this information will be included within html-help documents (the link on sf is the updated help file, not yet included) and can be found for online viewing (being html documents :-) at help.fdos.org, or in particular http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/sys.htm If I go to http://freedos.sourceforge.net/ and then choose "Documentation" it takes me to something completely different, with FAQs, and I can't find the actual docs related to command line switches... From there the command line help will be within the spec or manifesto (or something), which lists all commands and their basic usage that FreeDOS aspires to meet [so not all are available and/or match those command line arguments]. Yes I should work better with the fd-doc project, but hey no ones perfect. I do want to redo fdos.org, move all my DOS related stuff there, rearrange to make it easier to find the desired whatever, and most importantly make it as easy/automatic to keep updated. (hint, so suggestions off list are welcome) Jeremy --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Kenneth J. Davis schreef: It is documented, within kernel source doc directory and at http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/docs/sys.htm Strange that it says WinME is unsupported, and doesn't mention if Win9x FAT16/32 bootsector works or is (still) broken. somewhere 'segent' --> 'segment' looks like I confused SAVEBS with BACKUPBS, my apologies. /OEM:XX where XX determines which DOS you want to boot; it chooses/alters the bootsector to be compatible with the given DOS. For FreeDOS all that is really required is passing boot drive in BX and loading full kernel (Enhanced DR-DOS is similar, except uses DX), and MS/PC DOS have a heap of expectations (less so in newer releases). The AUTO option (which is the default) determines based on which files are present (with a hard coded list, the order of which determines the one selected should multiple kernels be present); however due to the similarities, EDR-DOS will be used instead of PC-DOS so PC-DOS must always be manually selected. /OEM:AUTO usually will mean FreeDOS is preferred, yes. When you want to force writing a FreeDOS bootsector , use /OEM:FD /OEM:MS and OEM:W9x are difficult to use, as you cannot determine in batchfile or commandline when looking at the system files which operating system is used. Only thing you can determine it's Windows instead of MSDOS is if you see IO.SYS on a fat32 partition. Bernd --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Kenneth J. Davis wrote: It is documented, within kernel source doc directory and at http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/docs/sys.htm This is very nice, but how do people find it from either FreeDOS.org or fdos.org (the sites we were given). If I go to http://freedos.sourceforge.net/ and then choose "Documentation" it takes me to something completely different, with FAQs, and I can't find the actual docs related to command line switches... -- Gerry Hickman (London UK) --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
sys Was: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Johnson Lam wrote: On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:59:00 +0200, you wrote: Hi Bernd, In sourcecode, SYS v3.6 is still under development :) If you didn't write here, I don't even know there're hidden switch, how can I test? It is documented, within kernel source doc directory and at http://freedos.sourceforge.net/kernel/docs/sys.htm Without enough testing, more delay to an official release ... this function may help to installing a stupid WinXP which SEEMS to check the bootsector. Same for SYS: an option to keep using the MS bootsector instead of installing an (not always working) FreeDOS replacement bootsector for MS system files. /OEM:Auto means FreeDOS? /OEM:XX where XX determines which DOS you want to boot; it chooses/alters the bootsector to be compatible with the given DOS. For FreeDOS all that is really required is passing boot drive in BX and loading full kernel (Enhanced DR-DOS is similar, except uses DX), and MS/PC DOS have a heap of expectations (less so in newer releases). The AUTO option (which is the default) determines based on which files are present (with a hard coded list, the order of which determines the one selected should multiple kernels be present); however due to the similarities, EDR-DOS will be used instead of PC-DOS so PC-DOS must always be manually selected. Rgds, Johnson. Jeremy --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS FDISK issue with Windows Build
Florian Xaver schreef: Hi! In sourcecode, SYS v3.6 is still under development :) Do you know the new versions of Format and Sys, which are made Dr-DOS compatible and has more features? You can find it at http://www.drdosprojects.de/ if I remember correctly, this actually IS FreeDOS SYS v3.6 http://fdos.org/AutoIndex/kernel/test/sys.txt Don't know about FORMAT though. Sys 3.6 has nonworking bootsector so far for Win9x kernelfiles on fat16 and fat32. Everything else works. Bye, Flo Bernd --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile & Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects & Teams * Testing & QA Security * Process Improvement & Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
