Re: [Freedos-user] GNU General Public License...

[Ralf Quint]

On 4/9/2021 4:31 AM, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:
I'm sorry Ralf, when did I actively characterize Richard Stallman 
alone as God's gift to the problem of software monopolies and hardware 
monopolies etcetera?  That doesn't seem to be a respectful thing to 
push concerning Richard Stallman and what about other people in the 
open source movement for that matter some of whom he works with?  As 
far as stringing conspiracy theories together, which ones are you 
referring to as I find this to be a curious and interesting comment?  
I could be deeply offended, but if Covid 19 has taught me anything it 
has taught me that we need to be open minded and patient with one 
another  The lack of hope too many of us are fighting thanks to this 
stupid virus not being under control and we are not vaccinated against 
it yet creates a challenge to think about: patience, prayer, and 
openness to one another.  Now is a good time to solve problems in 
concert with other people instead of creating more problems that won't 
get fixed :-)
I don't know why you attack me personally, just because I agree with 
someone else's reply to your nonsense post.


And yes, all your deflection just makes you look like one of the fanbois 
of the cult of St. IGNUcius. Stallman "might" have had a nice idea, but 
it ended in utter chaos, that just added to more confusion as far as 
Open Source goes. GPL (2) was pretty much the worst that ever happened 
in the Open Source world, which is also indicated by the fact that they 
came up with the LGPL and later GPL 3 to remedy a lot of the short 
comings/flaws of the original GPL. And this has led to the whole flurry 
of different Open Source license since.
And don't get me started on RMS and the FSF's attempt to 
(mis)appropriate Linux...


But what has been the issue for RMS dismissal from the FSF two years ago 
has been the fact that he is a downright morally corrupt individual as 
he as shown in his reply to the whole Minsky issue. There is a reason 
why he got kicked out of  MIT in the wake of it as well as the 
subsequent resignation of several other board members of the FSF when he 
all the sudden tried to sneak in through the back door.




Furthermore concerning Stallman, I've never met him myself where I 
think we all need to take it easy when we are tempted to say things 
about someone we haven't met.  Jim Hall of course has met Richard 
Stallman, but I see Jim that you are very conservative in what you say 
despite having some very reasonable concerns about the man.  Concern 
is better than a lot of other things, concern can be positive and 
useful.  I can be a part of a healthy conversation, otherwise I have 
to respectfully withdraw.


Once again, you make a totally false assumption. I did have the 
misfortune to meet (luckily not in a one-on-one conversation) him in the 
mid/late '80s on a conference. And back then he showed already all the 
signs of a bully and downright arrogant and ignorant personality. And 
that wasn't helped that I had personal conversations with employees from 
both LMI and Symbolics back in those days that knew him and that shed a 
somewhat different light on what led to him being dismissed from the AI 
lab and his "invention" of the GPL...


Ralf



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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user]

> DOS itself doesn't use/support any mouse, it is up to an application to 
> interpret the responses given through the INT 33h API, which is 
> implemented either by the BIOS or a "driver" (TSR_ like CTMouse. While 
> probably not completely impossible to add another TSR that would 
> intercept INT33h and instead feeds simulated keyboard events into INT 
> 9h. I am not sure that something like this exist, at least neither 
> myself nor any of my friends/clients ever had a need for such a tool...

Not quite so helpful but the old XT I had many years ago (an Amstrad
PC1640) had the mouse connected to the keyboard rather than a serial
port as was usual for the time, and I believe it worked by sending
unused key codes in response to mouse actions.  The mouse driver would
pick up these key codes and handle the int 33h stuff.

However because of this, the machine could be configured at the
hardware level to send different key codes for the mouse buttons.  So
running a DOS application to change the machine's CMOS settings was all
it took to reassign the mouse buttons to send any keystroke you wanted,
and the setting would persist across power cycles without needing any
TSR running.

I wonder whether the author of the original application being discussed
here had a similar machine, and assumed all PCs could have their mouse
buttons configured similarly.

Cheers,
Adam.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Jon Brase]

> Full spec of laptop here:
https://www.comx-computers.co.za/laptop-specification-sheet.php?laptop=40065

The CPU is listed as a Pentium T4500, which is a processor from 2010-ish using 
the Penryn-L microarchitecture.

Intel processors in that market segment didn't have virtualization support 
features until 2012/2013-ish with the introduction of the Ivy Bridge 
microarchitecture.

So the likely reason that your BIOS does not have virtualization support is 
because your hardware just doesn't support it. That doesn't mean you can't use 
virtualization at all, but it does mean that what virtualization software you 
can use and what operating systems you can run under virtualization will be 
limited. For example, my old 2009-era Core 2 Duo laptop can't run 64-bit 
operating systems under virtualization, but VirtualBox can handle 32-bit OSes 
just fine.


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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Ralf Quint]

On 4/9/2021 11:28 AM, Thomas Desi wrote:

Hi Eric, thanks for responding.

I have a (normal) two button mouse and want to change the behaviour of a mouse 
button to act as if I pressed the »CONTROL« key on the keyboard.

Use case: A DOS application where the mouse acts as a pointer without the need 
to click.
This suggests to use the mouse buttons for productivity, e.g. assign the 
CONTROL key to the mouse.

Maybe there is some script availabe to REMAP keys and mouse in FreeDOS?

NB. In GUI operating systems there are applications such as Autohotkey, 
Karabiner etc. to achieve this.

Well, this is once again an issue with the conceptual differences 
between DOS and Windows (or any other GUI based OS).


DOS itself doesn't use/support any mouse, it is up to an application to 
interpret the responses given through the INT 33h API, which is 
implemented either by the BIOS or a "driver" (TSR_ like CTMouse. While 
probably not completely impossible to add another TSR that would 
intercept INT33h and instead feeds simulated keyboard events into INT 
9h. I am not sure that something like this exist, at least neither 
myself nor any of my friends/clients ever had a need for such a tool...


Ralf



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user]

> I have an unusual situation.  My Dell laptop has Linux on it, I want to
> use VirtuaBox (a tool I have used many times before on other laptops and
> PCs) but the BIOS does not support Virtualisation.  An upgrade to the
> BIOS might so I want to upgrade the BIOS.  Dell supply the BIOS upgrade
> in the form of an .EXE file.  If I had Windows on the laptop I could
> just execute the file and follow instructions, says Dell.

If it's a Dell laptop, have you tried following Dell's instructions for
updating the BIOS under Linux?  They cover newer machines that let you
update from within Linux itself, as well as older machines that require
a FreeDOS boot disk.

  
https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-au/000131486/update-the-dell-bios-in-a-linux-or-ubuntu-environment

However for most of their machines (as per their instructions) the
easiest way is to copy the BIOS .EXE file onto a USB disk, leave
the USB stick inserted, reboot the machine, press F12 at the Dell logo
and select the menu option to update the BIOS.

This way you don't need any special programs or operating systems and
the whole process only takes a few minutes.  I have done it a number of
times on Dell machines over the last 10 years and it works very
smoothly.

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 21:37:15 +0200
tom ehlert  wrote:

> It is safe but will not solve your problem. The BIOS updater .EXE is a
> Windows program, and will only run on Windows.

Actually most of Dell's updates are internally ZIP files or similar, so
if you want to extract the BIOS files you just unzip them as if they
are a zip file.  Most manufacturers do this so that their in-BIOS
update can easily extract the actual image to flash without needing to
run the .exe itself.  But you only need to do this if you want to
manually flash the file from within Linux via the command line - the
BIOS-based updating program is smart enough to do this extraction
itself.

> >> get a copy of RUFUS for Linux.  
> > There is no such thing.
> > https://www.how2shout.com/tools/rufus-for-linux-not-available-use-these-best-alternatives.html
> >   
> 
> Sorry, I had assumed this. But for some reasons I'm a Windows person.
> 
> Is there a reason  why no such almost trivial thing exists?
> both for windows and linux, less then 500 MB?

Yes, because copying the data onto the device is only 20% of the
application.  The majority of it is dealing with the OS interface to
the hardware which is 100% different between Windows and Linux, so you
would need two entirely separate applications anyway, even if they were
written by the same person and called the same name.  You can't share
much code between the two programs which is why it's not trivial and
nobody has done it, but they have created entirely separate
applications with the same functionality, like UNetbootin.

Cheers,
Adam.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Jon Brase]

> Is there a reason  why no such almost trivial thing exists?
both for windows and linux, less then 500 MB?

Two reasons:

1) Because a standard system utility for disk imaging exists on Linux (or any 
other Unix-like, for that matter), which has been around since before Linux, or 
even DOS was around: dd

2) Because the interfaces that Windows and Unix provide to applications for raw 
disk access are different, so equivalent disk imaging programs will basically 
share no code, so few if any such programs on either system have had their 
developers bother to release a version for the other platform.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Tomas By]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 23:50:53 +0200, Stephanos wrote:
> So I decided that it was slightly easier to put back Windows 7.
> [...] I copied the BIOS update version A05 file onto the HDD.
> I executed it with a double click. I got the usual messages about
> closing all other programmes. I clicked OK. Nothing happened.


Permissions? Were you administrator? Try "run as administrator".

(But it is better to use DOS.)

/Tomas


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Eric Auer]

Now that we have clarified that the BIOS update tool can be
used with either Windows or DOS...

>> get a copy of RUFUS for Linux.

> https://www.how2shout.com/tools/rufus-for-linux-not-available-use-these-best-alternatives.html

Those tools are mostly for making bootable USB sticks from
ISO images. ISO images are for making bootable CD or DVD,
which explains why it helps to have extra tools to make
ISO boot from USB sticks in case the BIOS does not detect
what you are trying to do and helps you booting it anyway.

However, the FreeDOS diskimage for bootable USB sticks is
already MEANT for USB sticks, so you can avoid the hassle.

As explained, you can just use "dd" to copy the raw image
to the raw stick. I guess there also are other tools to
do that using the mouse and some nice menus.

If you are not experienced with dd, you can look up some
tutorial about copying diskimages to USB sticks with it.

Using dd the wrong way - as with all disk tools - could
result in overwriting the wrong disk instead of your USB
stick so you have to be a bit more careful when using dd.

After you do that, the stick will contain one 32 MB FAT16
partition and bootable MBR and bootable DOS boot sector
etc. to make everything boot FreeDOS once you boot from
the stick.

The only caveat is that the 32 MB are already full with
FreeDOS stuff, but as soon as you open the stick again
in Linux, you can simply use your file manager to throw
4DOS.ZIP away and instead add your BIOS file and BIOS
update tool instead.

Alternatively, you can use user friendly graphical tools
such as GPARTED to make the partition larger (because
your still will most likely be more than 32 MB) as long
as you keep it as FAT16. Then again you will have space
to add your BIOS file and BIOS update tool.

When you boot from the stick, you can abort the option
to install DOS to harddisk (of course) and instead run
the BIOS update tool at your normal DOS prompt.

I have no idea why your attempt to use Windows 7 to
update the BIOS has failed, but I would say there are
fewer unknown variables involved when you use DOS and
not Windows to update your BIOS version.

And I have no idea at all why you mention VirtualBox
or VMware in context of your attempt to update your
BIOS please explain that!

Now that you have overwritten your Linux with Windows
anyway, you could actually use the FreeDOS USB stick
to install FreeDOS to harddisk. Then, copy the BIOS
update and update tool to your DOS installation on
harddisk: That is actually even more foolproof than
running the tool on USB, because it will not depend
on how well-behaved your BIOS is for USB access. You
can just boot DOS from harddisk and do the BIOS update
in a really classic DOS environment.

I assume you do know how to run DOS apps? Simply type
the name of the file you want to run and hit enter.
There will be some documentation about the update
tool as well, I assume. For example you may have to
type something like NAMEOFTHETOOL NAMEOFTHEUPDATE
instead of just NAMEOFTHETOOL.

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[tom ehlert]

Liam,

>> it's not. I know. but it's a file format that can transport both a DOS
>> and Windows executable in the same file.

> This is not correct. In fact this tech was possible before Windows 3.0
> even launched; it was called a "family app" or "family mode".

probabaly it's a bit of hair splitting.
lets settle it at this.

>> get a copy of RUFUS for Linux.
> There is no such thing.
> https://www.how2shout.com/tools/rufus-for-linux-not-available-use-these-best-alternatives.html

Sorry, I had assumed this. But for some reasons I'm a Windows person.

Is there a reason  why no such almost trivial thing exists?
both for windows and linux, less then 500 MB?


it's basically

  FORMAT U:// linux knows how to format FAT32
  SYS U:   // drop boot sector with "KERNEL.SYS"  and adress 0x60
  copy kernel.sys U:
  copy command.com U:
  copy himem.sys u:
  echo>config.sys DEVICE=HIMEM.SYS
  echo>>config.sys DOS=HIGH,UMB

  (and admittely a bit more, but not much)

wow. 20 years into FreeDOS evolution. I'm quite impressed ;<






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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Dear All

Thank you all for the contributions.  I think we have reached the end.

First let me mention that the BIOS version mentioned in the BIOS is A02.
 The later version is A05 and found here.
https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-uk/product-support/servicetag/0-YXhUR091TFhQWVdkR0VXeUY0cTREQT090/drivers
This is the version I downloaded.  It is ten years after A02.

I managed to put ReactOS onto my memory stick.  I did this as an
experiment unconcerned with the later issue of how to execute the BIOS
upgrade file.  It did not boot.  It got stuck at around the same stage
as the boot from the DVD.

So I decided that it was slightly easier to put back Windows 7.
I used gparted to wipe the HDD
I installed Windows 7, the original OS that was on the laptop when it
was purchased, all those years ago.
I copied the BIOS update version A05 file onto the HDD.
I executed it with a double click
I got the usual messages about closing all other programmes
I clicked OK
Nothing happened.  I waited patiently for a few minutes.
I have done BIOS upgrades in the past.  I expected to see something
happen.  There was no screen going blank, no reboots, nothing.
I booted into the BIOS and the version was the same A02.
I rebooted back into Windows 7

Well, I am at at a loss.  Assuming that is the end of the matter my next
option is to reinstall Kubuntu and see if VMware works where VirtualBox
did not.

Along the way I have learned about the tools that allow you to take a
file out of a compressed file, edit it and put it back.  So I got
something out of this.  This is a superb work horse of a laptop, silent,
robust, fast and very reliable.  It will serve me well for years to come
and with Linux/WINE and perhaps VMWare I am not at a loss for
compatibility with my favourite Windows applications.

Thanks again everyone

Best wishes

Stephanos


On 09/04/2021 22:12, Liam Proven wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 21:41, tom ehlert  wrote:


It is safe but will not solve your problem. The BIOS updater .EXE is a
Windows program, and will only run on Windows.


Tom, do not guess. Check, be sure, before you post.

Here is the BIOS update:

https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-uk/drivers/driversdetails?driverid=r281635=rt

Note what it says:

«
This file format consists of a BIOS executable file. The Universal
(Windows/MS DOS) format can be used to install from any Windows or MS
DOS environment.
»

EXE is the file format for Windows (and OS/2) as well as DOS, you know.




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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 23:36, tom ehlert  wrote:

> it's not. I know. but it's a file format that can transport both a DOS
> and Windows executable in the same file.

This is not correct. In fact this tech was possible before Windows 3.0
even launched; it was called a "family app" or "family mode".

Read about it here:
https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/os2/history/os213/index.html

It is also possible for Windows binaries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.exe#Windows

> get a copy of RUFUS for Linux.

There is no such thing.

https://www.how2shout.com/tools/rufus-for-linux-not-available-use-these-best-alternatives.html


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 17:42, Stephanos  wrote:

> 1) I have WINE on my laptop and run several MS applications.  Is it safe
> to treat the BIOS upgrade file as an application and run it in WINE?

OMG *no!* Do not even try. It is _extremely_ unlikely to work, but if
it does, it is extremely likely to trash your computer.

A BIOS update needs low-level hardware access to write new data to a
very specific storage chip on your motherboard. Any tiny glitch in
timing or compatibility, the write fails, and your computer will never
work again.

Do not even _consider_ using any other OS than the one specified by
the manufacturer. An emulator on an alien OS, or a "fake" Windows like
ReactOS, is suicidal.

> 2) I could install DOS Box, which is new to me, I have the same
> question, is it safe?

Yes but it can't flash BIOSes -- it contains a BIOS emulator -- and it
can't write USB sticks. It was another ludicrous suggestion. Please
stop listening to this dangerous advice.

> 3) Is running a version of Windows, 7 perhaps, in VMWare, and then
> executing the BIOS upgrade file feasible and safe.

NO!

No emulators, no clones, no VMs.

Use bare naked DOS on the bare metal.

> These 3 are appealing options if they are feasible and safe?

They are not appealing, not feasible, and. not safe. They are
suggestions from someone who does not understand how this stuff works
but does not _know_ that they don't understand.

You would not try to change a tyre on your car while rolling down the
motorway at 70mph, and if you did, you would die.

Same with trying to reflash firmware under emulators under a
multitasking OS. It is just as dangerous and just as foolhardy, but
poor Michael here doesn't know that so he is telling you to wedge a
shoe on the accelerator and climb out the window. *DO NOT LISTEN TO
HIM.*

Just get Unetbootin and use that. It is very easy.

https://unetbootin.github.io/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[tom ehlert]

Liam,

>> It is safe but will not solve your problem. The BIOS updater .EXE is a
>> Windows program, and will only run on Windows.

> Tom, do not guess. Check, be sure, before you post.

> Here is the BIOS update:

> https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-uk/drivers/driversdetails?driverid=r281635=rt

> Note what it says:

> «
> This file format consists of a BIOS executable file. The Universal
> (Windows/MS DOS) format can be used to install from any Windows or MS
> DOS environment.
> »

Yep. Sorry.
actually I *checked this out*.

But by assuming that the art of dual binaries (for win32 and DOS) was
never really popular, I somehow stopped reading after 'Windows'.

still better then this only IDE will work bullshit ;)

> EXE is the file format for Windows (and OS/2) as well as DOS, you know.
it's not. I know. but it's a file format that can transport both a DOS
and Windows executable in the same file.

so for Stephanos:

get a copy of RUFUS for Linux.
this will make a bootable FreeDos stick.
add the BIOS updater to this stick.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 17:39, Michael Christopher Robinson
 wrote:
>
> Some version of Windows is what Dell expects him to have to update his BIOS, 
> that's where that came in.

No, it doesn't, and you are wrong. PLEASE stop giving ill-informed,
bad and dangerous advice.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 17:06, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
> Hi! I do not understand where Windows and ReactOS are
> getting into the equation here. If you have Linux, you
> can search in your software center whether you find an
> app to install BIOS updates.


The `fwupgmgr` tool does exist, but I find it does not support much
hardware and has severe restrictions. For instance on my work Dell
Latitude E7270, it cannot update the firmware because Linux was
installed in "legacy" mode, i.e. BIOS-compatible; `fwudmgr` only works
in UEFI mode.

So it is no help to me.

>  If you have some DOS tool
> for that, you should run DOS for the tool, not Windows.

Dell's page says it's DOS. I believe the people who wrote the tool, don't you?

>  Some BIOS even are
> able to install updates from files on USB sticks etc.

Yes, mine can. But I have to put it on a FAT USB key anyway, so first
time, I used DOS.

Once I had updated it, later, a newer update could be read direct from USB.

But I think this machine is too old.

> http://freedos.org/download/ explicitly offers DIFFERENT
> downloads for CD/DVD and for USB. Obviously it is easier
> to use the USB version if you want to run DOS from USB.

You say that, but then you proceed to give complicated steps for
writing a small image and then deleting part of its contents to make
room. That doesn't sound simple to me.

I wrote the FreeDOS 1.0 ISO to an old 1GB USB key and I had about 0.99
GB free. ;-)

Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. Remember the KISS Principle!

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 15:31, Stephanos  wrote:
>
> I have used ReactOS in a virtual environment.

To attempt to use an unfinished reverse-engineered clone of Windows to
install a firmware upgrade is tantamount to suicide. You are
positively asking for it to go wrong and corrupt your BIOS chip,
turning your laptop into a brick.

Do not even _try_ it.  Michael was insane to even suggest it.

> As a best guess would putting ReactOS onto a memory stick overcome this
> problem?

NO!

Please do not try this unless you want to buy a new computer.

What I have described is 100% safe, it will work, and you will be
fine. It is also easy and straightforward.

What Michael is advocating is difficult, extremely unlikely to work
and probably dangerous.



On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 15:56, Stephanos  wrote:

> 1) the BIOS upgrade file size is 1950KB

Doesn't matter, but you can't fit that on a floppy anyway.

> 2) I have an external floppy drive but might not have floppies, I will
> search

You don't need them.

> 3) I have an external USB CD/DVD reader/writer, that usually needs both
> of its 2 USB cables to power it when burning

You don't need that either.

I have _done_ what I am describing, within this year so far, on my
work Dell laptop. I am *telling* you it works, unlike other people in
this thread who are guessing based on no evidence.

> 4) There is some sort of 32/64 bit issue with this laptop I have never
> understood.  The version of Kubuntu 18.04 is 64 bit.  When I download an
> installation file for another programme, one that says it does 32 and
> 64, the output to screen says that the 32 bit version is being installed.

It depends on the submodel; there seem to be 3, from the manual:

https://downloads.dell.com/manuals/all-products/esuprt_laptop/esuprt_inspiron_laptop/inspiron-15-n5030_setup%20guide_en-us.pdf

If you have a Pentium Dual Core, that's a poor processor. The other
models look OK.

I think it's just an early 64-bit machine. It should be fine.

> 5) I do not have zip or LS120 drives

No need.

> Just seen Tom's contribution.  Does the file size support that theory.

Not really, no.

-- 
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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 21:41, tom ehlert  wrote:

> It is safe but will not solve your problem. The BIOS updater .EXE is a
> Windows program, and will only run on Windows.

Tom, do not guess. Check, be sure, before you post.

Here is the BIOS update:

https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-uk/drivers/driversdetails?driverid=r281635=rt

Note what it says:

«
This file format consists of a BIOS executable file. The Universal
(Windows/MS DOS) format can be used to install from any Windows or MS
DOS environment.
»

EXE is the file format for Windows (and OS/2) as well as DOS, you know.

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Bret Johnson]

You might be able to use my MOUSKEYS program (available on my web site, 
http://bretjohnson.us. What MOUSKEYS is designed to do is let you use a mouse 
with programs that don't normally use a mouse (including using a mouse at the 
DOS prompt itself).  It does this by mapping the various mouse actions 
(movements and button presses) to keystrokes.  It is highly configurable so 
that you can map the various mouse actions to almost any keystroke.  It even 
has a small clipboard that allows you to copy something from the screen and 
"type" it in later. The problem you might have is that it converts ALL mouse 
actions to keystrokes and you can't have it just modify the right mouse button 
without modifying everything else on the mouse as well.  But, it may be 
suitable for what you're trying to do.  


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[tom ehlert]

Hallo Herr Eric Auer,

am Freitag, 9. April 2021 um 18:04 schrieben Sie:


> Hi Stephanos,

>> 1) I have WINE on my laptop and run several MS applications.  Is it safe
>> to treat the BIOS upgrade file as an application and run it in WINE?

> That will not help. Wine can run Windows apps, but you want to update
> the BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a Wine window on Linux.

>> 2) I could install DOS Box, which is new to me, I have the same
>> question, is it safe?

> It is safe but will not solve your problem. You want to update the
> BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a DOSBOX window on Linux.

>> 3) Is running a version of Windows, 7 perhaps, in VMWare, and then
>> executing the BIOS upgrade file feasible and safe.

> It is safe but will not solve your problem. You want to update the
> BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a simulated VMWare PC window.

>> If I cannot do above and cannot get my head around burning images to
>> memory stick, then I will revert to removing Kubuntu, installing Win 7,
>> running the BIOS upgrade file, praying.

> It would be a lot more complicated to install Windows on your entire
> computer than to install FreeDOS on a little USB stick, no?

It is safe but will not solve your problem. The BIOS updater .EXE is a
Windows program, and will only run on Windows.


ask a friend with a Windows 10 PC to run recoverydrive.exe

this will create in a few seconds a bootable USB stick with some sort
of reduced Windows and should run your updater.exe.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Eric Auer]

Hi Thomas,

> I have a (normal) two button mouse and want to change the behaviour
> of a mouse button to act as if I pressed the »CONTROL« key on the
> keyboard.

> Use case: A DOS application where the mouse acts as a pointer without
> the need to click. This suggests to use the mouse buttons for
> productivity, e.g. assign the CONTROL key to the mouse.

I remember that Logitech mice for DOS had a tool
where you could "type" pre-recorded text snippets
by clicking the mouse while it was not used, so
I guess your idea to simulate control being held
as long as the right mouse button is held has some
similarity. Which leads to the question: Are there
freeware TSR floating around which already provide
what you need? I guess it is a bit uncommon that
your app does use the pointer but not the buttons.

In any case, I think it is better to use a separate
tool for what you want instead of adding it as a
feature to cutemouse.

Let me sketch the idea... Not necessarily for you,
but for people pondering to write a TSR for this :-)

Install check 1: check if int 33h vector is not null
Install check 2: int 33h, ax=0 check if ax=-1 returned
Check buttons: int 33h, ax=3, returns bx, cx and dx,
right button is second lowest bit of bx.

Callback for buttons: int 33h, ax=0ch, cx=18h, es:dx
pointer to far call to be invoked on right button
press/release. Call will receive ax=flags (10h for
release, 08h for press) bx=buttons cx,dx=location,
si,di=movement.

More modern callback: alternatively use int 33h, ax=18h
to register a far call (cx=0 to unregister in theory
and cx=18h, es:dx null in reality)

Either way, you probably are at risk to collide with
other apps also registering callbacks if you use those.

If you use function 3 to check buttons, you will have
to set a timer event to do that at regular intervals
and make sure to not do it while the mouse driver is
already busy with something else.

You probably also want to trigger only while a cursor
is visible or while the driver is enabled. For that,
you would intercept int 33h and check for ax=1fh/20h
(disable/enable driver), ax=1/2 show/hide cursor etc.

If it is only relevant to modify the state of keyboard
"control" in context of mouse activity itself, you can
intercept int 33h calls such that if your app looks at
the mouse status, you "look over it's shoulder" and use
the right mouse button status to update keyb "control".

Your app might look at the status of the "control" key
by calling int 16h, ah=2, which returns al bit 2 set if
control is pressed. So you could intercept that and set
bit 2 yourself based on mouse status, which you can poll
at that moment using int 33h, ax=3. On more modern keyb,
the call would be int 16h, ah=12h or, rarely, 22h. Both
let you set extra flags in ah: bit 0 for left and bit 2
for right control key, among others.

An even easier way to manipulate the apparent status of
"control" is to set bit 2 at 40h:17h or, if you also want
to manipulate left and right control, bit 0/2 at 40h:18h.

The difference is: If your app calls int 16h to check for
control, you can catch the calls as just the right moment
to check mouse buttons. In that case, you probably want
to avoid callbacks. If it does NOT, you probably want to
either use the mouse callback OR a timer event to get a
trigger when the mouse button changes and use that to set
the appropriate 40h:... bit, from where on the keyboard
driver will take care of the rest, in most situations.

If your app actually uses low level I/O to the keyboard
controller, things would get a lot more ugly, because
you would have to tell the hardware to fake keypresses.
Even in DOS, I would say that this is relatively rare :-)

Programmatically messing with keyboard input was sort of
popular in the old days, so I think it is quite possible
that a TSR which does EXACTLY what you want already is
out there and somebody here knows one :-) I remember to
have used a TSR which worked the other direction, moving
the "mouse" pointer with the keyboard, too.

In case nobody knows a suitable TSR for you, we would
have to play around with the ideas mentioned above, to
make something which does not interfere too much with
normal mouse usage of your app. Several methods possible.

I hope somebody can suggest a nice pre-existing TSR :-)

Regards, Eric

PS: There is no need to buy a "programmable" mouse. The
difference is just a more "programmable" driver, which
probably is not provided for DOS in modern gaming mice.
So I recommend standard mouse + driver + a special TSR.




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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Eric, thanks for responding.

I have a (normal) two button mouse and want to change the behaviour of a mouse 
button to act as if I pressed the »CONTROL« key on the keyboard. 

Use case: A DOS application where the mouse acts as a pointer without the need 
to click. 
This suggests to use the mouse buttons for productivity, e.g. assign the 
CONTROL key to the mouse.

Maybe there is some script availabe to REMAP keys and mouse in FreeDOS?

NB. In GUI operating systems there are applications such as Autohotkey, 
Karabiner etc. to achieve this.

Maybe I need to buy a programmable mouse instead.  Fair enough.

Regards, Thom

> On Fri,20210409- week14, at 20:03, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
>> Has anyone out there achieved programming the right
>> mouse button to a modifier key, e.g. Control?
>> 
>> I can‘t find any info on the forum or at CTmouse
>> (CuteMouse) in Freedos which otherwise works fine.
> 
> Please explain your problem. Do you have a mouse with
> only one button and want control-click to act as if
> you had clicked the right button?
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

> Has anyone out there achieved programming the right
> mouse button to a modifier key, e.g. Control?
> 
> I can‘t find any info on the forum or at CTmouse
> (CuteMouse) in Freedos which otherwise works fine.

Please explain your problem. Do you have a mouse with
only one button and want control-click to act as if
you had clicked the right button?

Regards, Eric




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[Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Has anyone out there achieved programming the right mouse button to a modifier 
key, e.g. Control
?

I can‘t find any info on the forum or at CTmouse (CuteMouse) in Freedos which 
otherwise works fine.

Any ideas where to look?
regards, Thom

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Eric Auer]

Hi Stephanos,

> 1) I have WINE on my laptop and run several MS applications.  Is it safe
> to treat the BIOS upgrade file as an application and run it in WINE?

That will not help. Wine can run Windows apps, but you want to update
the BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a Wine window on Linux.

> 2) I could install DOS Box, which is new to me, I have the same
> question, is it safe?

It is safe but will not solve your problem. You want to update the
BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a DOSBOX window on Linux.

> 3) Is running a version of Windows, 7 perhaps, in VMWare, and then
> executing the BIOS upgrade file feasible and safe.

It is safe but will not solve your problem. You want to update the
BIOS in your real hardware, not inside a simulated VMWare PC window.

> If I cannot do above and cannot get my head around burning images to
> memory stick, then I will revert to removing Kubuntu, installing Win 7,
> running the BIOS upgrade file, praying.

It would be a lot more complicated to install Windows on your entire
computer than to install FreeDOS on a little USB stick, no? Also, your
Kubuntu will probably get lost as side-effect and Windows 7 is very
outdated, making you a target for all sorts of hacks and viruses.

As mentioned, do I understand you correctly that you have BIOS update
tools available for both DOS and Windows, but not yet for Linux? Then
an interesting choice would be to use the DOS version because you can
boot DOS from USB, which is harder for Windows.

You could even make space for a DOS partition with gparted and, after
that, boot DOS from USB or CD and install it to that partition: This
has the advantage that harddisk access is more stable than USB access
while doing BIOS maniplations.

Also, you could first install Windows and then add Kubuntu to have both.
Of course you should not boot Windows unless needed for tasks such as
BIOS updates. By installing in that order, you can have both to choose
from at each boot.

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Eric Auer]

Hi Michael,

so if I understand correctly, he has both DOS and Windows
versions of the update tool. I would NOT recommend to run
any of those in a virtual environment like DOSBOX and hope
to have any effect on the actual hardware. So indeed, to
use the DOS BIOS update tool, booting FreeDOS on the real
hardware is a good idea. DOBBOX has nothing to do with it!

> He should simply be able to do a:
> format /s a: ; copy bios.img a: ; cp programmer.exe a:

That will not work because he needs more space than what
would fit on a floppy. See my previous mail about putting
the FreeDOS USB installer on some USB stick. Then re-plug
the stick and use your normal file manager to change any
contents you like :-)

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Dear Christopher

Thanks.  I am still absorbing the information from the others but here
are a few additional questions
1) I have WINE on my laptop and run several MS applications.  Is it safe
to treat the BIOS upgrade file as an application and run it in WINE?
2) I could install DOS Box, which is new to me, I have the same
question, is it safe?
3) Is running a version of Windows, 7 perhaps, in VMWare, and then
executing the BIOS upgrade file feasible and safe.

These 3 are appealing options if they are feasible and safe?

If I cannot do above and cannot get my head around burning images to
memory stick, then I will revert to removing Kubuntu, installing Win 7,
running the BIOS upgrade file, praying.

Wait to hear

Stephanos


On 09/04/2021 16:09, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:

I would definitely try booting the ReactOS Live image a flash drive
instead of a DVD.  Longer term, you may want to install vmware player,
free by the way, and grab the vmware image for it from the ReactOS web
site.  You and I both Stefano are overly dependent on Virtualbox which
is not very usable these days and hardly the best option if you are
trying to run any DOS based system.  Oracle officially dropped support a
while back for Windows 98SE and Windows Millenium.  If all you want to
run is some kind of DOS and you don't need Windows at all, please study
DOSBOX and maybe look into WINE as well.  I am going to do some research
into Kubuntu now to try and help you better if you still need help
getting the BIOS updated ;-)

-

From: "Stephanos"
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc:
Sent: Friday April 9 2021 8:31:31AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

Blimey you two, I have been bombarded with lots of info and questions.
Here goes:

Full spec of laptop here:
https://www.comx-computers.co.za/laptop-specification-sheet.php?laptop=40065
/>
I have used ReactOS in a virtual environment. So I have downloaded the
live CD ISO burnt it to a DVD and booted from it. It got far into the
process but is stuck at "Installing devices". This looked promising.
If it had booted all the way to desktop I was going to insert the memory
stick onto which I had copied the BIOS upgrade programme. But alas,
alack it is not to be.

As a best guess would putting ReactOS onto a memory stick overcome this
problem?

Before I progress to Liam's options is there any other option you can
think of.

Thanks and wait to hear

Stephanos


On 09/04/2021 13:39, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:
 > Ditch the memory stick even if you can do this from inside DOSBOX
 > directly on top of Linux.  It's worth a shot even if you have to swap in
 > MS-DOS 6.22 temporarily or Windows 98SE DOS prompt temporarily in
 > DOSBOX.  If you can do this from within DOSBOX, you don't have to go get
 > any media you may not already have and you avoid burning a CD-R as well.
 >
 > Please ignore Liam, he obviously has an issue with me. If you need an
 > equivalent to Windows XP that is completely legal to use but not yet a
 > Beta, ReactOS is having memory management problems still, you may need a
 > ReactOS LiveCD ISO image and you probably do NOT need to burn the ISO to
 > a CD at all.  You can use a USB flash drive or you can absolutely use a
 > CD-R, if you want to.  The ReactOS web site has information on how to
 > put an image on either a CD-R or a Flash drive.
 >
 > You may need a program called Rufus for a Windows environment to put a
 > ReactOS live CD image on a flash drive.  I also recommend
 > Deepburner1.exe if you need it, which is free as long as you don't use
 > the pro version.  For that matter, use your favorite open source burning
 > program on the Linux system you have on that laptop and you definitely
 > want to use the burner in that laptop so that the CD reads in that
laptop.
 >
 >

http://www.reactos.org 
 >
 > You probably don't need anything other than a FreeDOS 1.0 boot disk
 > image to get your update done, that much is true.  I wouldn't go that
 > old and I wouldn't rule out doing this from DOSBOX directly on top of
 > Linux either.  This old DELL has a real BIOS, so I would highly suspect
 > that you can update it from inside DOSBOX runing on top of Linux.  I
 > recommend that you try FreeDOS 1.1 or FreeDOS 1.2 first in DOSBOX.
 >
 > As far as can you emulate on this latop without dedicated emulation
 > hardware, you can use VMWARE workstation version 5 or earlier.  You
 > might be able to use QEMU.  Maybe Bochs will work. Note that you should
 > be able to grab a VMWARE image from ReactOS.org saving you from needing
 > to have a VMWARE workstation license for an ancient version of VMWARE
 > which costs money.  I am overly dependent on VirtualBox myself.
 >
 >
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 > 

Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

Eric:

Some version of Windows is what Dell expects him to have to update his
BIOS, that's where that came in. ReactOS didn't fully start for him
when he burned it to a DVD and tried to boot that DVD, but that isn't
surprising considering that ReactOS has not even reached beta status
yet. If he switched to a USB flash drive instead of a DVD he
potentially could get ReactOS to start up fully, but it would make
more sense for him to put a Lite FreeDOS 1.2 on there, his BIOS image,
and the bios programming executable. I'm surprised that he can't use
DOSBOX directly on Kubuntu so he doesn't have to worry about creating
any removable media at all. He has a laptop that has a true BIOS, so I
would think that DOSBOX would allow him to run the BIOS update program
and reprogram it trivially. It would be safer of course for him to
have a usb flash drive set up and boot from it to do this. I hope he
doesn't make any major mistakes struggling to update his BIOS, backups
are key when you are trying to do this and having trouble.

Would it be easier via DOSBOX to format a USB flash drive so it can
boot freedos complete with the BIOS image and the BIOS programmer? I'm
thinking, get poor Stephano away from needing to use dd and worry
about 
isos and all that jazz... He should simply be able to do a:
 format /s a: ; copy bios.img a: ; cp programmer.exe a:

Of course, bios.img and programmer.exe need to replaced with the
actual file names. The complexity is hidden, you must set up DOSBOX
correctly before it becomes this easy.

-From: "Eric Auer" 
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: 
Sent: Friday April 9 2021 10:06:50AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

 Hi! I do not understand where Windows and ReactOS are
 getting into the equation here. If you have Linux, you
 can search in your software center whether you find an
 app to install BIOS updates. If you have some DOS tool
 for that, you should run DOS for the tool, not Windows.

 As your update is more than what fits on a floppy, you
 can check whether the actual update is smaller. Your
 file could be some sort of archive. Some BIOS even are
 able to install updates from files on USB sticks etc.
 when you find the right menu item. Read the manual :-)

http://freedos.org/download/ [1] explicitly offers DIFFERENT
 downloads for CD/DVD and for USB. Obviously it is easier
 to use the USB version if you want to run DOS from USB.

 The "Lite" FreeDOS 1.2 for USB contains an IMG file which
 you can simply "dd if=FD12LITE.img of=/dev/yourusbstick"
 (yourusbstick = the device name of the stick) which is
 unfortunately not explained in the README.md text file.

 According to the vmdk file in the download, the image has
 62 x 16 x 63 DBB geometry at 512 byte per sector: 32 MB
 decimal or 30.5 MB in powers of 2, at 503 x 2 x 63 CHS.

 As the image starts with a partition table, you do not
 use it as partition image, but install it on the whole
 USB stick, overwriting any existing contents. The FAT16
 partition on the stick (note that not all sticks can be
 booted at all!) has only 112 kB free. You may use gparted
 to resize it (but keep it FAT16, or it will not boot) or
 simply delete some files you do not need, for example
 /FDSETUP/PACKAGES/UTIL/4DOS.ZIP which frees up 4 MB for
 your BIOS update files and tools :-) You could also take
 the SOURCE/FREECOM/SOURCES.ZIP out of the COMMAND.ZIP in
 /FDSETUP/PACKAGES/BASE/ to save more than 4 MB again.

 *I think it would be better if the USB installer would*
 *use a much larger image padded with 96 MB empty space*

 It is very hard to find USB sticks smaller than 128 MB
 today and it makes life a lot easier if people can add
 things to the installer without having to resize it :-)
 ZIP download size will still be only 30 MB nevertheless.

 In any case, after you install the USB installer image
 to your USB stick of any size, it will initially look
 as if you have a 32 MB stick and you can delete 4DOS to
 make some space for your BIOS update tools and files.

 You do not need gparted for that and you do not need
 external floppy drives, CD drives or DVD drives either.
 Your 32/64 bit issue seems harmless: Your 64 bit Linux
 still supports 32 bit apps. You can use either style.

 Regards, Eric

 PS: Note that USB 1 is horribly slow, so you will need
 some patience. Even if you have USB 2 ports, your BIOS
 may use USB 1 access mode when you boot from USB stick.
 In that case, CD/DVD would be faster, but you need other
 tools to change the contents of ISO before burning them.

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 /> 

Links:
--
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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

I would definitely try booting the ReactOS Live image a flash drive
instead of a DVD. Longer term, you may want to install vmware player,
free by the way, and grab the vmware image for it from the ReactOS web
site. You and I both Stefano are overly dependent on Virtualbox which
is not very usable these days and hardly the best option if you are
trying to run any DOS based system. Oracle officially dropped support
a while back for Windows 98SE and Windows Millenium. If all you want
to run is some kind of DOS and you don't need Windows at all, please
study DOSBOX and maybe look into WINE as well. I am going to do some
research into Kubuntu now to try and help you better if you still need
help getting the BIOS updated ;-)

-From: "Stephanos" 
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: 
Sent: Friday April 9 2021 8:31:31AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

 Blimey you two, I have been bombarded with lots of info and
questions.
 Here goes:

 Full spec of laptop here:
https://www.comx-computers.co.za/laptop-specification-sheet.php?laptop=40065
 />
 I have used ReactOS in a virtual environment. So I have downloaded
the
 live CD ISO burnt it to a DVD and booted from it. It got far into the
 process but is stuck at "Installing devices". This looked promising.
 If it had booted all the way to desktop I was going to insert the
memory
 stick onto which I had copied the BIOS upgrade programme. But alas,
 alack it is not to be.

 As a best guess would putting ReactOS onto a memory stick overcome
this
 problem?

 Before I progress to Liam's options is there any other option you can
 think of.

 Thanks and wait to hear

 Stephanos

 On 09/04/2021 13:39, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:
 > Ditch the memory stick even if you can do this from inside DOSBOX
 > directly on top of Linux. It's worth a shot even if you have to
swap in
 > MS-DOS 6.22 temporarily or Windows 98SE DOS prompt temporarily in
 > DOSBOX. If you can do this from within DOSBOX, you don't have to go
get
 > any media you may not already have and you avoid burning a CD-R as
well.
 >
 > Please ignore Liam, he obviously has an issue with me. If you need
an
 > equivalent to Windows XP that is completely legal to use but not
yet a
 > Beta, ReactOS is having memory management problems still, you may
need a
 > ReactOS LiveCD ISO image and you probably do NOT need to burn the
ISO to
 > a CD at all. You can use a USB flash drive or you can absolutely
use a
 > CD-R, if you want to. The ReactOS web site has information on how
to
 > put an image on either a CD-R or a Flash drive.
 >
 > You may need a program called Rufus for a Windows environment to
put a
 > ReactOS live CD image on a flash drive. I also recommend
 > Deepburner1.exe if you need it, which is free as long as you don't
use
 > the pro version. For that matter, use your favorite open source
burning
 > program on the Linux system you have on that laptop and you
definitely
 > want to use the burner in that laptop so that the CD reads in that
laptop.
 >
 > http://www.reactos.org [1]
 >
 > You probably don't need anything other than a FreeDOS 1.0 boot disk
 > image to get your update done, that much is true. I wouldn't go
that
 > old and I wouldn't rule out doing this from DOSBOX directly on top
of
 > Linux either. This old DELL has a real BIOS, so I would highly
suspect
 > that you can update it from inside DOSBOX runing on top of Linux. I
 > recommend that you try FreeDOS 1.1 or FreeDOS 1.2 first in DOSBOX.
 >
 > As far as can you emulate on this latop without dedicated emulation
 > hardware, you can use VMWARE workstation version 5 or earlier. You
 > might be able to use QEMU. Maybe Bochs will work. Note that you
should
 > be able to grab a VMWARE image from ReactOS.org saving you from
needing
 > to have a VMWARE workstation license for an ancient version of
VMWARE
 > which costs money. I am overly dependent on VirtualBox myself.
 >
 >
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Links:
--
[1] http://www.reactos.org

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

Got it, some end of the 32 bit era early 64 bit era laptop is what you
have then. Interesting. Kubuntu 18.04, that is very current. It's okay
if you don't have Zip or LS120 handy, I wouldn't go get one. So you
have an external and internal CD burner that works, and I imagine you
have some media as well. I would burn a FreeDOS 1.3 live image and add
the bios image and the program to write it with as well to it if you
can edit the iso prior to burning it. 

Possibly put the programmer and the bios image you want on a CD-R and
not worry about that CD being bootable. Burn another CD-R with the
FreeDOS 1.3 RC3 live image. You can obviously look at going older than
1.3 too. Even 1.0 will probably be sufficient. The advantage since you
have CD-R's of not trying to use a flash drive is that FreeDOS doesn't
support USB anything terribly well yet. You may be able to put the
FreeDOS boot image on a flash drive trivially since you really don't
care about access if the image and the programmer are on a CD where
you have an internal one that FreeDOS hopefully supports.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Eric Auer]

Hi! I do not understand where Windows and ReactOS are
getting into the equation here. If you have Linux, you
can search in your software center whether you find an
app to install BIOS updates. If you have some DOS tool
for that, you should run DOS for the tool, not Windows.

As your update is more than what fits on a floppy, you
can check whether the actual update is smaller. Your
file could be some sort of archive. Some BIOS even are
able to install updates from files on USB sticks etc.
when you find the right menu item. Read the manual :-)

http://freedos.org/download/ explicitly offers DIFFERENT
downloads for CD/DVD and for USB. Obviously it is easier
to use the USB version if you want to run DOS from USB.

The "Lite" FreeDOS 1.2 for USB contains an IMG file which
you can simply "dd if=FD12LITE.img of=/dev/yourusbstick"
(yourusbstick = the device name of the stick) which is
unfortunately not explained in the README.md text file.

According to the vmdk file in the download, the image has
62 x 16 x 63 DBB geometry at 512 byte per sector: 32 MB
decimal or 30.5 MB in powers of 2, at 503 x 2 x 63 CHS.

As the image starts with a partition table, you do not
use it as partition image, but install it on the whole
USB stick, overwriting any existing contents. The FAT16
partition on the stick (note that not all sticks can be
booted at all!) has only 112 kB free. You may use gparted
to resize it (but keep it FAT16, or it will not boot) or
simply delete some files you do not need, for example
/FDSETUP/PACKAGES/UTIL/4DOS.ZIP which frees up 4 MB for
your BIOS update files and tools :-) You could also take
the SOURCE/FREECOM/SOURCES.ZIP out of the COMMAND.ZIP in
/FDSETUP/PACKAGES/BASE/ to save more than 4 MB again.

*I think it would be better if the USB installer would*
*use a much larger image padded with 96 MB empty space*

It is very hard to find USB sticks smaller than 128 MB
today and it makes life a lot easier if people can add
things to the installer without having to resize it :-)
ZIP download size will still be only 30 MB nevertheless.

In any case, after you install the USB installer image
to your USB stick of any size, it will initially look
as if you have a 32 MB stick and you can delete 4DOS to
make some space for your BIOS update tools and files.

You do not need gparted for that and you do not need
external floppy drives, CD drives or DVD drives either.
Your 32/64 bit issue seems harmless: Your 64 bit Linux
still supports 32 bit apps. You can use either style.

Regards, Eric

PS: Note that USB 1 is horribly slow, so you will need
some patience. Even if you have USB 2 ports, your BIOS
may use USB 1 access mode when you boot from USB stick.
In that case, CD/DVD would be faster, but you need other
tools to change the contents of ISO before burning them.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Dear both again

I should also say that
1) the BIOS upgrade file size is 1950KB
2) I have an external floppy drive but might not have floppies, I will
search
3) I have an external USB CD/DVD reader/writer, that usually needs both
of its 2 USB cables to power it when burning
4) There is some sort of 32/64 bit issue with this laptop I have never
understood.  The version of Kubuntu 18.04 is 64 bit.  When I download an
installation file for another programme, one that says it does 32 and
64, the output to screen says that the 32 bit version is being installed.
5) I do not have zip or LS120 drives

Just seen Tom's contribution.  Does the file size support that theory.
Even without the file size supporting the theory, it is plausible.

Thanks again

Stephanos


On 09/04/2021 14:07, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:

A couple of questions, what model DELL laptop are you trying to update
the BIOS on?  What level of Windows or even MSDOS for that matter was
the laptop originally designed to run?  Clearly, this laptop has some
USB so I'm guessing those are probably two USB 1.1 ports and I'm
thinking the laptop is some kind of Pentium I.  Do you by chance have
one of those ancient Zip100 drives and a readable Zip 50 or Zip 100
disk?  You would need the USB and not the parallel port model most
likely and I know for a fact that if you use the guest.exe program in
any DOS environment including FreeDOS 1.3 that you can get what you need
done using any external zip drive even if it's a USB one.  If you have
any external LS120 drive and at least one good 1.44MB floppy disk or
LS120 disk that will write, you can use that as well and I'd say IMHO
that LS120 drives are far better to have around than Zip drives because
they can read and write 1.44MB high density floppies whereas Zip drives
can't read any standard floppy and a Zip 750 cannot work with Zip 50,
100, or 250 disks except if you are lucky you might be able to read them.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Blimey you two, I have been bombarded with lots of info and questions.
Here goes:

Full spec of laptop here:
https://www.comx-computers.co.za/laptop-specification-sheet.php?laptop=40065

I have used ReactOS in a virtual environment.  So I have downloaded the
live CD ISO burnt it to a DVD and booted from it.  It got far into the
process but is stuck at "Installing devices".  This looked promising.
If it had booted all the way to desktop I was going to insert the memory
stick onto which I had copied the BIOS upgrade programme.  But alas,
alack it is not to be.

As a best guess would putting ReactOS onto a memory stick overcome this
problem?

Before I progress to Liam's options is there any other option you can
think of.

Thanks and wait to hear

Stephanos


On 09/04/2021 13:39, Michael Christopher Robinson wrote:

Ditch the memory stick even if you can do this from inside DOSBOX
directly on top of Linux.  It's worth a shot even if you have to swap in
MS-DOS 6.22 temporarily or Windows 98SE DOS prompt temporarily in
DOSBOX.  If you can do this from within DOSBOX, you don't have to go get
any media you may not already have and you avoid burning a CD-R as well.

Please ignore Liam, he obviously has an issue with me.  If you need an
equivalent to Windows XP that is completely legal to use but not yet a
Beta, ReactOS is having memory management problems still, you may need a
ReactOS LiveCD ISO image and you probably do NOT need to burn the ISO to
a CD at all.  You can use a USB flash drive or you can absolutely use a
CD-R, if you want to.  The ReactOS web site has information on how to
put an image on either a CD-R or a Flash drive.

You may need a program called Rufus for a Windows environment to put a
ReactOS live CD image on a flash drive.  I also recommend
Deepburner1.exe if you need it, which is free as long as you don't use
the pro version.  For that matter, use your favorite open source burning
program on the Linux system you have on that laptop and you definitely
want to use the burner in that laptop so that the CD reads in that laptop.

http://www.reactos.org

You probably don't need anything other than a FreeDOS 1.0 boot disk
image to get your update done, that much is true.  I wouldn't go that
old and I wouldn't rule out doing this from DOSBOX directly on top of
Linux either.  This old DELL has a real BIOS, so I would highly suspect
that you can update it from inside DOSBOX runing on top of Linux.  I
recommend that you try FreeDOS 1.1 or FreeDOS 1.2 first in DOSBOX.

As far as can you emulate on this latop without dedicated emulation
hardware, you can use VMWARE workstation version 5 or earlier.  You
might be able to use QEMU.  Maybe Bochs will work.  Note that you should
be able to grab a VMWARE image from ReactOS.org saving you from needing
to have a VMWARE workstation license for an ancient version of VMWARE
which costs money.  I am overly dependent on VirtualBox myself.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

A couple of questions, what model DELL laptop are you trying to update
the BIOS on? What level of Windows or even MSDOS for that matter was
the laptop originally designed to run? Clearly, this laptop has some
USB so I'm guessing those are probably two USB 1.1 ports and I'm
thinking the laptop is some kind of Pentium I. Do you by chance have
one of those ancient Zip100 drives and a readable Zip 50 or Zip 100
disk? You would need the USB and not the parallel port model most
likely and I know for a fact that if you use the guest.exe program in
any DOS environment including FreeDOS 1.3 that you can get what you
need done using any external zip drive even if it's a USB one. If you
have any external LS120 drive and at least one good 1.44MB floppy disk
or LS120 disk that will write, you can use that as well and I'd say
IMHO that LS120 drives are far better to have around than Zip drives
because they can read and write 1.44MB high density floppies whereas
Zip drives can't read any standard floppy and a Zip 750 cannot work
with Zip 50, 100, or 250 disks except if you are lucky you might be
able to read them.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 14:31, Stephanos  wrote:
>
> Dear Liam
>
> Thanks for that.  A little more info please
> 1) Which of the six options at the website
> (https://www.freedos.org/download/) are you suggesting I download.

I have used FreeDOS 1.0 for this in the past. All you need is to boot
the computer, nothing else. You don't need to (and should definitely
not) install anything.

The downloads for 1.0 are here:

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.0/

Pick the smallest "base" ISO you can get.

Alternatively the UNETBOOTIN USB-writing tool has a built-in option to
make a FreeDOS 1.0 boot USB.

I can't give exact instructions as all PCs are different, and you have
not told us the exact model of yours, except that it's a Dell.

If it does not default to booting from USB, usually, on most, pressing
F12 immediately after it finishes its Power-On Self Test (POST) will
let you choose a boot device.

So,

[1] Write FreeDOS 1.0 ISO to USB, e.g. using Rufus.
[2] turn PC off
[3] insert your FreeDOS bootable USB key
[4] turn PC on
[5] After any initial power-on messages appear, and it beeps,
*immediately* press F12
[6] if a menu letting you choose boot device appears, pick the USB key
[7] see if it works.

If it boots FreeDOS, then reboot, remove the key,  boot your normal OS
as usual, copy the BIOS update onto the key in the normal way, reboot
off the key again, and try running it.

I advise you to ignore the suggestions from "Michael Christopher
Robinson" which are incorrect and dangerous.

-- 
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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

Ditch the memory stick even if you can do this from inside DOSBOX
directly on top of Linux. It's worth a shot even if you have to swap
in MS-DOS 6.22 temporarily or Windows 98SE DOS prompt temporarily in
DOSBOX. If you can do this from within DOSBOX, you don't have to go
get any media you may not already have and you avoid burning a CD-R as
well.

Please ignore Liam, he obviously has an issue with me. If you need an
equivalent to Windows XP that is completely legal to use but not yet a
Beta, ReactOS is having memory management problems still, you may need
a ReactOS LiveCD ISO image and you probably do NOT need to burn the
ISO to a CD at all. You can use a USB flash drive or you can
absolutely use a CD-R, if you want to. The ReactOS web site has
information on how to put an image on either a CD-R or a Flash drive.

You may need a program called Rufus for a Windows environment to put a
ReactOS live CD image on a flash drive. I also recommend
Deepburner1.exe if you need it, which is free as long as you don't use
the pro version. For that matter, use your favorite open source
burning program on the Linux system you have on that laptop and you
definitely want to use the burner in that laptop so that the CD reads
in that laptop.

http://www.reactos.org

You probably don't need anything other than a FreeDOS 1.0 boot disk
image to get your update done, that much is true. I wouldn't go that
old and I wouldn't rule out doing this from DOSBOX directly on top of
Linux either. This old DELL has a real BIOS, so I would highly suspect
that you can update it from inside DOSBOX runing on top of Linux. I
recommend that you try FreeDOS 1.1 or FreeDOS 1.2 first in DOSBOX.

As far as can you emulate on this latop without dedicated emulation
hardware, you can use VMWARE workstation version 5 or earlier. You
might be able to use QEMU. Maybe Bochs will work. Note that you should
be able to grab a VMWARE image from ReactOS.org saving you from
needing to have a VMWARE workstation license for an ancient version of
VMWARE which costs money. I am overly dependent on VirtualBox myself.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Dear Liam

Thanks for that.  A little more info please
1) Which of the six options at the website
(https://www.freedos.org/download/) are you suggesting I download.  It
is not possible to relate "FreeDOS 1.0..." to any of them.
2) Regarding "Boot, use F5 or Shift to bypass CONFIG.SYS/AUTOEXEC.BAT".
 I understand that after booting the first time I will shutdown and
write my required BIOS upgrade file to the USB key then insert it and
boot again.  But I do not understand at what stage in the boot process I
press F5 or Shift.
3) Also is it a case or both F5 and Shift will work or one of them will
work but you do not know which?

Thanks again and wait to hear

Stephanos

On 09/04/2021 12:35, Liam Proven wrote:

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 13:22, Stephanos  wrote:


1) Download one of the ISO files


Fine


2) Make a CD bootable


What... why?


3) Write my BIOS upgrade file to the memory stick
Then insert the CD into the laptop and
a) boot the laptop into DOS
b) Insert the memory stick and navigate to the memory stick (by trying
all the drive letters possible: A:, B: C: D: etc)


No, won't work.

The FreeDOS 1.0 ISO is all you need. Write it to a USB key, not a CD.
Then check it boots. If it books, copy the Dell BIOS upgrade onto the
USB key. Boot, use F5 or Shift to bypass CONFIG.SYS/AUTOEXEC.BAT
completely, and run the update.

No need for an optical disk at all. Don't waste it. No external drive
needed either.




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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

Is your laptop SATA based internally or EIDE based? If you are EIDE
based, you are actually in great shape. All is not lost either if you
aren't EIDE based. Can you get away with something like a ReactOS
0.4.13 live CD to sort of give you Windows long enough to run the EXE
and upgrade your BIOS? Barring that, you might be able to use a USB
floppy drive, though probably this isn't recommended over just using a
USB thumb drive or an external CF card adapter through a USB port.
Burning a CD-R is probably your best option here where a Linux system
should work just fine for that. Has DELL ever considered supporting
through the BIOS directly a way to read an image and update it without
even introducing an OS on this old laptop? Most modern motherboards
support OS'less updating of the firmware, there isn't BIOS anymore,
but it sounds like your old Dell is old enough that it doesn't. The
lack of virtualization capability suggests you might be running a 32
bit processor and possibly not even a multi core one, which sounds
really cool honestly! I totally sense that Jim and others are under
evaluating the value of older hardware and I am concerned that there
isn't enough emphasis on dual tracking FreeDOS so that you can deploy
it equally well on an 8086, 286, or 386 processor as you can on an AMD
Athlon FX Black 8350 8 core processor or an i5/i7/i9 processor for
that matter. It's the motherboard and the lack of BIOS on it that gets
people in trouble the most these days. That, and there isn't a solid
open source hypervisor to make a modern PC look more ancient so that
FreeDOS will trivially run on it. BIOS can be faked after all.

Worst case scenario, it sounds like DELL is expecting you to be
running Windows 2000 Professional at most where you can temporarily
run that 
illegally without having to worry about activation. Just don't keep it

around for very long and avoid networking it. I cannot provide a link
to download Windows 2000 Professional here, but even Windows 98SE 
might work where you may just need a 98se boot disk which can be 
burned to a CD-R with your bios update program and the update 
added to it. Does the EXE file require Win16, Win32K, or something
newer 
than that from Windows NT? If it requires MSDOS only, you don't need
Windows at all where you should be able to illegally run MSDOS 6.22
long enough to get your laptop updates. I wonder if DOSBOX can be used
to 
bypass the fact that you can't run FreeDOS natively on this laptop?
Can 
BIOS updates be done from within DOSBOX running on top of Linux?

-From: "Stephanos" 
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: 
Sent: Friday April 9 2021 6:22:06AM
Subject: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

 Dear All

 I have an unusual situation. My Dell laptop has Linux on it, I want
to
 use VirtuaBox (a tool I have used many times before on other laptops
and
 PCs) but the BIOS does not support Virtualisation. An upgrade to the
 BIOS might so I want to upgrade the BIOS. Dell supply the BIOS
upgrade
 in the form of an .EXE file. If I had Windows on the laptop I could
 just execute the file and follow instructions, says Dell.

 The laptop does not have a floppy drive. It has two USB ports and an
 optical drive. Using my PC I am intending to do the following:
 1) Download one of the ISO files
 2) Make a CD bootable
 3) Write my BIOS upgrade file to the memory stick
 Then insert the CD into the laptop and
 a) boot the laptop into DOS
 b) Insert the memory stick and navigate to the memory stick (by
trying
 all the drive letters possible: A:, B: C: D: etc)
 c) Execute the BIOS upgrade file
 d) Pray

 I know how to use a burning programme to burn an ISO onto a disc and
so
 make the disc bootable

 So, can it be done with one of those ISO files you have on your
website,
 and if so, which one?

 Thanks and wait to hear

 Stephanos, London, UK
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Re: [Freedos-user] GNU General Public License...

[tom ehlert]

> I can be a part of a healthy conversation,
> otherwise I have to respectfully withdraw.

excellent idea

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] GNU General Public License...

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 13:36, Michael Christopher Robinson
 wrote:
>  I can be a part of a healthy conversation, otherwise I have to respectfully 
> withdraw.

Please do.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 13:22, Stephanos  wrote:

> 1) Download one of the ISO files

Fine

> 2) Make a CD bootable

What... why?

> 3) Write my BIOS upgrade file to the memory stick
> Then insert the CD into the laptop and
> a) boot the laptop into DOS
> b) Insert the memory stick and navigate to the memory stick (by trying
> all the drive letters possible: A:, B: C: D: etc)

No, won't work.

The FreeDOS 1.0 ISO is all you need. Write it to a USB key, not a CD.
Then check it boots. If it books, copy the Dell BIOS upgrade onto the
USB key. Boot, use F5 or Shift to bypass CONFIG.SYS/AUTOEXEC.BAT
completely, and run the update.

No need for an optical disk at all. Don't waste it. No external drive
needed either.

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Re: [Freedos-user] GNU General Public License...

[Michael Christopher Robinson]

I'm sorry Ralf, when did I actively characterize Richard Stallman
alone as God's gift to the problem of software monopolies and hardware
monopolies etcetera? That doesn't seem to be a respectful thing to
push concerning Richard Stallman and what about other people in the
open source movement for that matter some of whom he works with? As
far as stringing conspiracy theories together, which ones are you
referring to as I find this to be a curious and interesting comment? I
could be deeply offended, but if Covid 19 has taught me anything it
has taught me that we need to be open minded and patient with one
another. The lack of hope too many of us are fighting thanks to this
stupid virus not being under control and we are not vaccinated against
it yet creates a challenge to think about: patience, prayer, and
openness to one another. Now is a good time to solve problems in
concert with other people instead of creating more problems that won't
get fixed :-)

Furthermore concerning Stallman, I've never met him myself where I
think we all need to take it easy when we are tempted to say things
about someone we haven't met. Jim Hall of course has met Richard
Stallman, but I see Jim that you are very conservative in what you say
despite having some very reasonable concerns about the man. Concern is
better than a lot of other things, concern can be positive and useful.
I can be a part of a healthy conversation, otherwise I have to
respectfully withdraw.

-From: "Ralf Quint" 
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
Cc: 
Sent: Thursday April 8 2021 10:52:15AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] GNU General Public License..

 On 4/8/2021 4:40 AM, TK Chia wrote:
 > Hello Michael,
 >
 >> The license MUST be viral. Folks, anyone who complains about it
being
 >> viral doesn't understand it at all. Google is a monopoly. Google
 >
 > Sorry, but the arguments you make do not even begin to make any
sense at
 > all.
 >
 > You are basically just stringing a lot of baseless conspiracy
theories
 > together, and saying that Mr. Stallman is the only way to defeat
this
 > Vast Conspiracy(tm), because reasons.
 >
 > And I do not agree with that --- because none of that makes any
sense.
 >
 > Good day.

 +1

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[Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Stephanos]

Dear All

I have an unusual situation.  My Dell laptop has Linux on it, I want to
use VirtuaBox (a tool I have used many times before on other laptops and
PCs) but the BIOS does not support Virtualisation.  An upgrade to the
BIOS might so I want to upgrade the BIOS.  Dell supply the BIOS upgrade
in the form of an .EXE file.  If I had Windows on the laptop I could
just execute the file and follow instructions, says Dell.

The laptop does not have a floppy drive.  It has two USB ports and an
optical drive.  Using my PC I am intending to do the following:
1) Download one of the ISO files
2) Make a CD bootable
3) Write my BIOS upgrade file to the memory stick
Then insert the CD into the laptop and
a) boot the laptop into DOS
b) Insert the memory stick and navigate to the memory stick (by trying
all the drive letters possible: A:, B: C: D: etc)
c) Execute the BIOS upgrade file
d) Pray

I know how to use a burning programme to burn an ISO onto a disc and so
make the disc bootable

So, can it be done with one of those ISO files you have on your website,
and if so, which one?

Thanks and wait to hear

Stephanos, London, UK



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