Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Russell Standish]

On Sun, Feb 09, 2020 at 02:00:30PM +0100, Prof David West wrote:
> Russel,
> 
> Software Engineering has indeed enabled the construction of 100MLoc+ software 
> constructs.
> 
> But why do we assume that such monstrosities need to be built?
> 

I don't. But SE does allow 10Kloc+ software to be built in a workable
fashion, and I do care about those.


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au



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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Up and Out vs Down and in

[Prof David West]

Surely you don't believe any variant of that scenario?

Plausible scenarios.

Most likely — trump wins, Dems retain House, frenzied hysteria on behalf of 
losers, chaos, perhaps serial impeachments, governmental semi-paralysis, T 
continues to reshape the judiciary. Total disdain for govenment "careerists" in 
Executive branch, and Trump's way or the highway for personnel.

Less likely — trump loses, is escorted to Mar-A-Largo, Dems indulge in their 
own version of retaliation with T as a Greek chorus on Twitter 24-7 only to run 
again in 2024 and win in a massive landslide. Dems will NOT be able to learn 
from their mistakes and that is why they will inevitably go down in flames 
"next time."

Least likely — trump wins and wins both houses of congress. Four years of 
unbearable gloating, dubious policies tempered with good policy. E.g. progress 
on global warming and climate change which T will see as a magnanimous gesture 
and legacy as opposed to concession to his enemies.

The only possible examples of violent confrontation/conflict.

Most likely — sanctimonious "gangster mentality" leftist groups attacking 
anyone who disagrees with them.

Less likely but quite possible — armed standoffs ala Idaho and Nevada by 
anti-government right-wing fringe groups (but not racist groups like KKK).

In either case, standard law enforcement will suffice to quell.

davew


On Sun, Feb 9, 2020, at 5:53 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, Dave, I am not assuaged. Like you, I worry about the Next Guy, perhaps 
> Blumberg? The Marc Anthony, the Savior from the Center. Trump looses the 
> election by a slim margin, briongs his base, with their guns, into the 
> streets. Nobody wants the fight. Either he prevails and gets a third term, or 
> Blumberg comes in and tries to clear the streets. Mayhem. Martial Law. 

> 

> FWIW, read the following, courtesy of WIKIPEDIA,

> 

> **Hitler rose to a place of prominence in the early years of the party. Being 
> one of its best speakers, he was made leader after he threatened to leave 
> otherwise. He was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in 
> advancing his political objectives and to recruit party members who were 
> willing to do the same. The Beer Hall Putsch 
>  in November 1923 and the 
> later release of his book Mein Kampf 
>  (My Struggle) expanded Hitler's 
> audience. In the mid-1920s, the party engaged in electoral battles in which 
> Hitler participated as a speaker and organizer,[a] 
> 
>  as well as in street battles and violence between the Rotfrontkämpferbund 
>  and the Nazis' 
> Sturmabteilung  (SA). Through 
> the late 1920s and early 1930s, the Nazis gathered enough electoral support 
> to become the largest political party in the Reichstag, and Hitler's blend of 
> political acuity, deceptiveness, and cunning converted the party's 
> non-majority  but plurality 
>  status into effective 
> governing power in the ailing Weimar Republic of 1933**

> I agree that chilling is a good thing. Better a cold fear than a hot one. 

> 

> Nick

> 

> Nicholas Thompson

> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

> Clark University

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

> 

> 

> 


> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:03 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Up and Out vs Down and in

> 

> Nick,

> 

> May I make a simple suggestion?

> 

> Chill.

> 

> I recall the conversations at FRIAM the months after mr. T was elected — 
> Apocalypse NOW! is a pretty accurate depiction. (And the same list of "safe 
> havens was presented then.)

> 

> There is no conceivable path whereby the donald could become a dictator.

> 

> The only way that any president could do so is if the electoral college were 
> eliminated and some parallel of the circumstances around the FDR era were in 
> place. The constitution could be quickly amended to allow more than two 
> terms, and off we go. I guarantee, if that were to happen it would be a 
> dictatorship of the left, not the right.

> 

> I used to worry about an American Theocracy, but trump pretty much destroyed 
> the likelihood of that.

> 

> As to how *"we use our considerable talent, skill, knowledge, resources, and 
> technical knowhow to do everything in our power to reverse the authoritarian 
> pandemic that is sweeping the world."* First, recognize that "there is no 
> pandemic; then figure out why almost half the electorate voted the way they 
> did. (It was not FOR trump.)

> 

> it would not hurt to understand the difference between 

Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Marcus Daniels]

Nick writes:

“Do you have a model in mind? “

Optimistically, the Democrats retake the executive branch and the Senate and 
extend the Supreme Court.

If that doesn’t happen, well, it could be time to make some decisions.  As of 
2017, the top 25 metropolitan areas in the US make up 50% of the US GDP 
compared to about 10% for non-metro areas. [1]  One way to bring Trump country 
to its knees, the 10%, is to do what Trump country people want, cut federal 
taxes.  With federal tax relief, local taxes could be raised to do the things 
that cities need to do.  In the Bay Area, for example, two needs among many are 
to build more affordable housing and to increase the safety of the energy 
distribution system.   Navigating potentially oppressive new federal employment 
law by sanctuary states might be accomplished with creative use of ITINs or 
state authority over death records.  The workforce is needed and it isn’t fair 
to not give people fair standing, including as voters.  Planning for the 
collapse of Social Security and Medicare will be hard, but honestly I’ve pretty 
much written off getting either.   In the near term scenario of fascists in 
charge in Washington, Democrats should still pour on the vitriol of 
entitlements to exacerbate the debt load, while at a state level creating other 
contingencies.   There will need to be real crisis to put an end to the 
electoral college.  I am confident Republican leadership can achieve a 
spectacular crisis, but it will be important to prepare for it.

[1] https://www.statista.com/chart/18684/us-cities-by-gdp/
[2] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/06/immigration-wages-economics/530301/

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Up and Out vs Down and in

[thompnickson2]

Well, Dave, I am not assuaged.  Like you, I worry about the Next Guy, perhaps 
Blumberg?  The Marc Anthony, the Savior from the Center.  Trump looses the 
election by a slim margin, briongs his base, with their guns, into the streets. 
 Nobody wants the fight.  Either he prevails and gets a third term, or Blumberg 
comes in and tries to clear the streets.  Mayhem.  Martial Law.  

 

FWIW, read the following, courtesy of WIKIPEDIA, 

 

Hitler rose to a place of prominence in the early years of the party. Being one 
of its best speakers, he was made leader after he threatened to leave 
otherwise. He was aided in part by his willingness to use violence in advancing 
his political objectives and to recruit party members who were willing to do 
the same. The Beer Hall Putsch  
 in November 1923 and the later release of his book Mein Kampf 
  (My Struggle) expanded Hitler's 
audience. In the mid-1920s, the party engaged in electoral battles in which 
Hitler participated as a speaker and organizer,[a] 

  as well as in street battles and violence between the Rotfrontkämpferbund 
  and the Nazis' 
Sturmabteilung   (SA). Through 
the late 1920s and early 1930s, the Nazis gathered enough electoral support to 
become the largest political party in the Reichstag, and Hitler's blend of 
political acuity, deceptiveness, and cunning converted the party's non-majority 
  but plurality 
  status into effective 
governing power in the ailing Weimar Republic of 1933

I agree that chilling is a good thing.  Better a cold fear than a hot one.  

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:03 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Up and Out vs Down and in

 

Nick,

 

May I make a simple suggestion?

 

Chill.

 

I recall the conversations at FRIAM the months after mr. T was elected — 
Apocalypse NOW! is a pretty accurate depiction. (And the same list of "safe 
havens was presented then.)

 

There is no conceivable path whereby the donald could become a dictator.

 

The only way that any president could do so is if the electoral college were 
eliminated and some parallel of the circumstances around the FDR era were in 
place. The constitution could be quickly amended to allow more than two terms, 
and off we go. I guarantee, if that were to happen it would be a dictatorship 
of the left, not the right.

 

I used to worry about an American Theocracy, but trump pretty much destroyed 
the likelihood of that.

 

As to how "we use our considerable talent, skill, knowledge, resources, and 
technical knowhow to do everything in our power to reverse the authoritarian 
pandemic that is sweeping the world." First, recognize that "there is no 
pandemic; then figure out why almost half the electorate voted the way they 
did. (It was not FOR trump.)

 

it would not hurt to understand the difference between finite and infinite 
games and apply that knowledge to an analysis of US politics since, circa, 1900.

 

davew

 

 

 

On Sun, Feb 9, 2020, at 6:04 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

All,

 

I have a friend who reads a lot of history and thinks HARD about what he reads. 
 For months he has been reassuring me about the state of American democracy 
because, as he said, Trump wasn’t a well focused dictator like Hitler.  But I 
saw him last Monday and he asked me, with an air of genuine panic, “What do I 
do?”  The reason for his new panic was his realization that Hitler had not 
always been a focused dictator, but had been entrained, over his career, to 
play just those themes that would rouse the German people to War.  The 
impeachment process had convinced him that Trump was gradually developing the 
focus of a proper Hitler. 

 

So I passed the question he asked me onto the group on Friday.  “What do we 
do?”  What struck me was that many of us took the question to be, “where do we 
best escape to?”  Options included New Zealand, Costa Rica, Bermuda, Canada, 
Italy, etc.  These answers startled me, because, of course, the question I 
meant to be asking was, how do we use our considerable talent, skill, 
knowledge, resources, and technical knowhow to do everything in our power to 
reverse the authoritarian pandemic that is sweeping the world. 

 

Now some of you, perhaps many, that we in any kind of an emergency, or even if 
we are, that there is 

Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Prof David West]

Nick.

if you are talking about my paper, here is the link I posted to Gary that you 
might not have seen.

https://objectguild.com/papers/westProgrammingHard2019.pdf

davew


On Sat, Feb 8, 2020, at 6:02 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here! Here! The Paper, the Paper!!!

> 

> Nicholas Thompson

> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

> Clark University

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

> 

> 

> 


> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 8, 2020 6:41 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

> 

> Please post a link to your paper. I for one would love to read it. 

> 

> On Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 3:45 AM Prof David West  wrote:

>> Jon,

>> 

>> As an observer of software "engineering" since its inception in 1968 (my 
>> first job as a programmer was that fall, and that spring/summer is when the 
>> NATO conference first coined the phrase), I can and will (braggadocio here) 
>> state that most software CANNOT be engineered, precision or otherwise, and 
>> all that we have learned in the past 52 years in both computer science and 
>> software engineering is essentially irrelevant to the production of 
>> application level software.

>> 

>> The protocols that ensure cat photos are scattered into packets traversing 
>> vast segments of the Internet to be reassembled and presented on you phone 
>> in real time, is an example of the minority of software that can be 
>> engineered. The vote counting app _could not have been_.

>> 

>> The difference is that the first replicates, in software, a deterministic 
>> machine with limited variables, all of which can be known and quantified, 
>> limited relations among variables, all of which can be known and stated; and 
>> the second one is a complex system where variables and relations are highly 
>> dynamic, idiosyncratic, and, often, quite literally unknowable.

>> 

>> I just completed a sixty-page essay on this subject "Why Programming is Hard 
>> and Software Development is (Mostly) Impossible" that addresses this issue. 
>> If you would like to read, let me know and I will send you a link or the 
>> paper.

>> 

>> Making things worse is the superstructure around software development — all 
>> the methodologies, all the frameworks, all the management levels, all the 
>> practices that supposedly guide/govern the process of developing software.

>> 

>> Icing on the cake, is attitude. Those that contract for software EXPECT that 
>> the project will fail and/or that what they get will be a pale imitation of 
>> what they wanted, full of bugs and inconsistencies. The development team 
>> also EXPECTS the project to fail, for different reasons, but fail 
>> nevertheless.

>> 

>> And roughly 90-percent of the time both sides have their expectations 
>> realized. (60-65 % of projects started are abandoned without any delivery, 
>> the other 20-25 percent are those pale imitations over budget and taking 
>> twice the time.)

>> 

>> One more factor - the game is rigged. Those that might actually be able to 
>> deliver reasonable software applications are not allowed to play in the 
>> game. Acronym and Shadow came into existence because people in Hillary 
>> Clinton's campaign thought they saw a way to make money and used their 
>> connections to get established and make contracts. The "bid" process was 
>> laughable, the specs being written such that no one but Shadow could comply 
>> and in a time frame that Microsoft, et. al. were not able to respond 
>> adequately.

>> 

>> Half a billion dollars were spent on the Obamacare website and another 
>> half-billion to get it to work after the initial failure. A startup team of 
>> Web-developers built the site with full functionality, including calculating 
>> subsidies (supposedly the hard part) in a week. Their site was demoed on 
>> Sixty Minutes. But they would never have been allowed to bid on the original 
>> project because they did not meet Federal procurement guidelines which were 
>> rigged to very large companies most of whom have a remarkably long history 
>> of spectacular failures on past projects.

>> 

>> Frothing at the mouth so much, am at risk of dehydration.

>> 

>> dave

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Feb 7, 2020, at 8:54 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:

>>> My intention in drawing attention to critical application

>>> development is an attempt to deepen the discussion

>>> around 'apps' and rhetoric. In the discussions around

>>> app usage in the democratic primaries, the target appears

>>> to be the vulnerability which exists today because

>>> programmers today are a bunch of python hacks who

>>> never read Knuth. Yet, not a single Friam mother-church

>>> meeting passes without a discussion of the precision

>>> engineering embodied in our Porches, Teslas, or iphones.

>>> 

>>> Of particular interest to me in directing this rhetorical frame

>>> are the 

Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Prof David West]

Russel,

Software Engineering has indeed enabled the construction of 100MLoc+ software 
constructs.

But why do we assume that such monstrosities need to be built?

davew


On Sun, Feb 9, 2020, at 2:04 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 09:44:20AM +0100, Prof David West wrote:
> > Jon,
> > 
> > As an observer of software "engineering" since its inception in 1968 (my 
> > first
> > job as a programmer was that fall, and that spring/summer is when the NATO
> > conference first coined the phrase), I can and will (braggadocio here) state
> > that most software CANNOT be engineered, precision or otherwise, and all 
> > that
> > we have learned in the past 52 years in both computer science and software
> > engineering is essentially irrelevant to the production of application level
> > software.
> 
> As someone who graduated from being a "programmer" to a "software
> engineer" somewhere around 2008, I can testify there is a world of
> difference between the two. A programmer will happily churn out
> programs up to 1000 lines of code, and maybe manage a 10,000 loc
> program by dint of extreme hoeroic effort. Using software engineering
> techiniques, including object orientation, extensive regression
> testing, continuous integration, source code management and so on, a
> single programmer can easily manage a 10 Kloc program, and up to
> 100Kloc loc by dint of heroic effort (ie an order of magnitude more
> complex). A small team of 5 coders can perhaps manage a 1Mloc codebase
> (albeit probably not 10x as complex as the 100Kloc codebase in my
> experience), but requires much more intrateam communication, via daily
> standups etc.
> 
> For larger projects eg the Linux kernel (ca 30Mloc), it is only
> feasible by being extremely modular, which cuts down on the amount of
> intrateam communicaton. Noone, not even Linus, has a clear picture of
> the whole.
> 
> But none of these larger projects would be possible without the
> discipline of "software engineering". Whether "software engineering"
> is actually "engineering" or not is a pub argument, but it clearly
> works when applied pragmatically and not idealogically. If not
> "engineering", we would still need a name to cover the set of
> techniques that help tame complexity, and manage software development
> at scale.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Prof David West]

Jon,

The "artifact" — a couple of hundred lines of code executing on a smartphone — 
can be engineered. No question.

The "app" however is the artifact deployed in a context; a context that 
includes human beings.

The app+context is a complex system and you cannot "engineer" that system. You 
will not be able to anticipate all, or even most, of the ways that things will 
go wrong once your quality engineered artifact is deployed. You will not be 
able to anticipate and account for how something as simple as a "Facebook-like 
button" will be perceived by different users of the app, many of whom have 
never seen Facebook or its buttons.

Moreover, since you are introducing your artifact into a complex system, it 
will change the system. For example: the app requires you to enter a number in 
a field. A paper form requires you to enter a number in a field. Same thing 
—right? No!
Paper provides all kinds of affordances that the app will not: erasures, 
modifications with initials, etc. You cannot know what many of these 
affordances are and you certainly cannot engineer them into your artifact.

Even more interesting and perplexing, the app embodied a system change that was 
never evaluated: how voters will behave when they know that their sequence of 
actions are being reported, not just their final act. Will the behavior change" 
Yes! Did Shadow have any concept of how or why, or did the DNC when it created 
the specs for the app? No!

And did the design of the app take into account intentional bad actors? Sure, 
it had two-factor authentication (which more than half the users did not 
understand how to make work), but would the same trolls that jammed the phone 
lines to headquarters have affect the ability of the app to submit results? 
Probably not literally, but a DNS attack probably would have; not to mention 
all kinds of spoofing possibilities.)

Arguing that a *"critical application voting app belongs to the class of 
impossible tasks" *the way that I am supports the heart, I think, of your 
concern about the rhetoric of failure, but at a different level.

Rhetoric about a data breach at Target does not legitimize Target — it 
legitimizes the institution of "credit" and institutions like credit reporting 
agencies. Beyond that, the institution of social security numbers.

Rhetoric about Boeing 737 legitimizes, not an institution but a conviction — 
that artificial intelligence is superior to human, that autopilots are more 
trustworthy than human pilots.

I completely agree with you that, as a culture and society, we are totally in 
thrall, Stockholm Syndrome-like, to the "newly minted" and the impossibility of 
doing anything different.

I suspect that my perspective with regard the rhetoric, its use, and its 
targets are far more expansive that the concern you have articulated in this 
instance.

davew



On Sun, Feb 9, 2020, at 12:52 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> While I agree that there are likely to be many systemic reasons
> for this electoral failure, I am unwilling to go so far as to claim
> that the design of a critical application voting app belongs to the
> class of impossible tasks.
> 
> Maybe a little flippantly and without dragging this entire post
> into design details, the voting app needs little more than a
> Facebook like-button, a Redis server, authentication and
> a light-weight rest api. If the idea were to be taken seriously,
> such an app could be written starting now for an election in
> four years. It could be tested and verified by a trusted agency,
> like the NSA. The process of building a voting app could be
> taken seriously and accomplished.
> 
> A pressing issue for me remains. There appears to be forming
> a public rhetoric around failure. A rhetoric which can be
> summarized as: *failure legitimizes institutions*. Through our
> grieving and eulogizing over a data breach at Target corp, 
> we legitimize Target as a critical institution. After two
> Boeing 737 jet crashes, the collective expressions of
> helplessness and loss legitimize Boeing as a critical institution.
> Now, and possibly most controversially, we have the failure
> of electoral and democratic process. This possibly-emergent
> coping strategy additionally appears to mirror strategies
> outlined by Baudrillard in his analysis of Watergate 
> .
> 
> With respect to these newly minted critical institutions,
> the public participates in a type of Stockholm syndrome.
> We continue to support and rely on them. We continue to
> form rhetoric about the impossibility of doing otherwise,
> rather than calling these institutions out for what they
> are, namely failing to adequately serve their functions.
> 
> Jon
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe 

Re: [FRIAM] Up and Out vs Down and in

[Prof David West]

Nick,

May I make a simple suggestion?

Chill.

I recall the conversations at FRIAM the months after mr. T was elected — 
Apocalypse NOW! is a pretty accurate depiction. (And the same list of "safe 
havens was presented then.)

There is no conceivable path whereby the donald could become a dictator.

The only way that any president could do so is if the electoral college were 
eliminated and some parallel of the circumstances around the FDR era were in 
place. The constitution could be quickly amended to allow more than two terms, 
and off we go. I guarantee, if that were to happen it would be a dictatorship 
of the left, not the right.

I used to worry about an American Theocracy, but trump pretty much destroyed 
the likelihood of that.

As to how *"we use our considerable talent, skill, knowledge, resources, and 
technical knowhow to do everything in our power to reverse the authoritarian 
pandemic that is sweeping the world."* First, recognize that "there is no 
pandemic; then figure out why almost half the electorate voted the way they 
did. (It was not FOR trump.)

it would not hurt to understand the difference between finite and infinite 
games and apply that knowledge to an analysis of US politics since, circa, 1900.

davew



On Sun, Feb 9, 2020, at 6:04 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> All,

> 

> I have a friend who reads a lot of history and thinks HARD about what he 
> reads. For months he has been reassuring me about the state of American 
> democracy because, as he said, Trump wasn’t a well focused dictator like 
> Hitler. But I saw him last Monday and he asked me, with an air of genuine 
> panic, “What do I do?” The reason for his new panic was his realization that 
> Hitler had not always been a focused dictator, but had been entrained, over 
> his career, to play just those themes that would rouse the German people to 
> War. The impeachment process had convinced him that Trump was gradually 
> developing the focus of a proper Hitler. 

> 

> So I passed the question he asked me onto the group on Friday. “What do we 
> do?” What struck me was that many of us took the question to be, “where do we 
> best escape to?” Options included New Zealand, Costa Rica, Bermuda, Canada, 
> Italy, etc. These answers startled me, because, of course, the question I 
> meant to be asking was, how do we use our considerable talent, skill, 
> knowledge, resources, and technical knowhow to do everything in our power to 
> reverse the authoritarian pandemic that is sweeping the world. 

> 

> Now some of you, perhaps many, that we in any kind of an emergency, or even 
> if we are, that there is anything we might do about it, or even that there is 
> any particular reason to save American democracy. I am happy to have that 
> discussion, too. However, from those of you who share my panic, I would love 
> to hear suggestions about what I (and others) might do in the next year .

> 

> All the best,

> 

> Nick 

> 

> 

> 

> Nicholas Thompson

> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

> Clark University

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

> 

> 

> 

> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> 

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove