Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 23, 4:10 pm, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: At 3:04 PM -0400 3/23/2009, insightinmind wrote: The answer then seemed to be yes ... zeroing a partition would cause the controller to map out any bad sectors. Not seems - is. Yes. The controller ALWAYS maps out bad blocks whenever they're found, during any type of read or write operation. If I may summarize the discussion about bad sectors. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the fly during normal read/ write operations. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out within a volume/partition when you zero the volume/partition in Disk Utility or some other tool. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the hard drive when you zero the entire hard drive in Disk Utility or some other tool. Secure Erase (also Secure Empty Trash) zeros whatever sectors had been previously written to and therefore maps out any bad sectors previously written to, and only those. Zeroing does not equal mapping out. Check? Al Poulin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
At 9:17 AM -0700 3/25/2009, Al Poulin wrote: If I may summarize the discussion about bad sectors. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the fly during normal read/write operations. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out within a volume/partition when you zero the volume/partition in Disk Utility or some other tool. Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the hard drive when you zero the entire hard drive in Disk Utility or some other tool. Correct. Secure Erase (also Secure Empty Trash) zeros whatever sectors had been previously written to and therefore maps out any bad sectors previously written to, and only those. The secure erase features use a varying bit pattern, not all zeros. Same effect tho, wrt triggering bad block mapping. Zeroing does not equal mapping out. Mapping out bad blocks is handled by the controller. Zeroing is a higher level function, done by the app (Disk Utility, etc). - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 25, 12:51 pm, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: At 9:17 AM -0700 3/25/2009, Al Poulin wrote: Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the fly during normal read/write operations. Correct. So, unlike the advice of 5 -10 years ago, we no longer need to map out bad blocks in an entire hard drive every two or three years just to reduce risk of problems. Many thanks, Al Poulin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
At 10:47 AM -0700 3/25/2009, Al Poulin wrote: On Mar 25, 12:51 pm, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: At 9:17 AM -0700 3/25/2009, Al Poulin wrote: Bad sectors (blocks) get mapped out on the fly during normal read/write operations. Correct. So, unlike the advice of 5 -10 years ago Drives were very different back then. The controllers were much less intelligent, so the work was done up in the OS (driver and other layers). And today's media is supposed to last longer and have better data retention. \\although this is belied by the manufacturers' posting absurdly high MTBF numbers then cutting their warranty periods from 5 to 3 or even 1 year. You'd think if the drives were really better, they'd be willing to stand behind them - at least as a marketing thing.\\ heh. YMMV. Trust No One. , we no longer need to map out bad blocks in an entire hard drive every two or three years just to reduce risk of problems. Depends on a lot of factors... Entropy and Murphy guarantee that all media degrades. If you don't access a particular piece of data, then nothing will trigger the bad block replacement mechanism. That means you could have bad blocks - and corrupted data - sitting around, and not even know it. Personally, I still like fully exercise my HDs every few years. I use a major OS upgrade as the excuse to zero the drive and reload it. Just a quick clone backup, zero, clone restore... - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 22, 2009, at 10:58 PM, tortoise wrote: I'd like the thank the originator of this tip. I had a few drives reporting bad spots (in the full SMART report which you get only when you download the source and build it; and also when I tried to secure erase I got write errors *sometimes* w/ hangs, noted in apple console logs) Yes, erasing at the drive level rather than the partition level, with secure erase, eliminated the errors. Of some concern to me of course if more bad spots turn up. Had one drive turn up no more for four years (formatted free space around the spot) and another got another in 6 months, or anyway the files ran into it -- all this before I even knew about secure erase at all... PATA (SATA) drives (Seagate's anyway) are only warranty-ed for 3 years now ... use to be 5. I have a few that are lasting longer than that, but I am getting ready to replace them just the same. I believe the bad sectors are mapped out, even when zeroing the partitions ... as someone said, the controller doesn't function around partition boundaries (my paraphrasing). Still not sure of the answer here. I'm wondering if the information about the partitions might have been in bad sectors themselves on your drive ... or in sectors going bad ... maybe that's where the problems were. Re-partitioning with zeroing would fix that. Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
Greetings ( + )!( + ) Checking with Western Digital and Seagate, they have an application that runs on a WINTEL PCEE that will do the low-level format which will mark, i.e. remove the bad sectors from the drive but fortunately I haven't own a WinTel (DOS) computer for more than 30 years. Cheers - Harry - ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?º?ø On Mar 23, 5:54 am, insightinmind billycarm...@verizon.net wrote: On Mar 22, 2009, at 10:58 PM, tortoise wrote: I'd like the thank the originator of this tip. I had a few drives reporting bad spots (in the full SMART report which you get only when you download the source and build it; and also when I tried to secure erase I got write errors *sometimes* w/ hangs, noted in apple console logs) Yes, erasing at the drive level rather than the partition level, with secure erase, eliminated the errors. Of some concern to me of course if more bad spots turn up. Had one drive turn up no more for four years (formatted free space around the spot) and another got another in 6 months, or anyway the files ran into it -- all this before I even knew about secure erase at all... PATA (SATA) drives (Seagate's anyway) are only warranty-ed for 3 years now ... use to be 5. I have a few that are lasting longer than that, but I am getting ready to replace them just the same. I believe the bad sectors are mapped out, even when zeroing the partitions ... as someone said, the controller doesn't function around partition boundaries (my paraphrasing). Still not sure of the answer here. I'm wondering if the information about the partitions might have been in bad sectors themselves on your drive ... or in sectors going bad ... maybe that's where the problems were. Re-partitioning with zeroing would fix that. Bill Connelly artsite:http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace:http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
At 8:54 AM -0400 3/23/2009, insightinmind wrote: I believe the bad sectors are mapped out, even when zeroing the partitions ... as someone said, the controller doesn't function around partition boundaries (my paraphrasing). Still not sure of the answer here. Not sure what controller doesn't function around partition boundaries means. Sounds like you're trying to get the crane operator to deal with what's inside of the cargo container. Partitions are a SOFTWARE data construct, created and managed by your Mac's file system. The controller is HARDWARE. It knows NOTHING about the partitions. The controller only knows the whole hard drive, by managing the stream of logical blocks (as presented to the outside world), against the actual physical geometry of the drive (cylinders, platters, tracks, sectors, etc). - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
I'd like the thank the originator of this tip. I had a few drives reporting bad spots (in the full SMART report which you get only when you download the source and build it; and also when I tried to secure erase I got write errors *sometimes* w/ hangs, noted in apple console logs) Yes, erasing at the drive level rather than the partition level, with secure erase, eliminated the errors. Of some concern to me of course if more bad spots turn up. Had one drive turn up no more for four years (formatted free space around the spot) and another got another in 6 months, or anyway the files ran into it -- all this before I even knew about secure erase at all... On Mar 20, 4:12 pm, Charles Davis c...@gamewood.net wrote: On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Dan wrote: At 9:38 AM -0400 3/20/2009, insightinmind wrote: snip SMART is a *monitoring* mechanism, to alert (someone) when things start to go south. It has nothing to do with actual corrective measures, such as bad block replacements -- which are handled by the hardware controllers these days. I always thought (Re)Formatting a drive, zeroing out data, did the bad sector mapping out, but only during the formatting process. That's re-initializing a drive. You cannot reformat modern drives. well some you can if you have a machine that can boot 8.5.1, that was the last you were allowed by apple (actually that version of drive setup works in 8.1 too). I only did this once, and IIRC it only helped for a limited time. The process of zeroing it -- writing zeros to each sector on the drive causes the hardware's bad block replacement mechanism to trigger as needed. What isn't being said here, is whether the 'bad block' mechanism is operational when zeroing at the partition level, or only when the complete hard disk is being 'zeroed'. The latter is my experience. Chuck D. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 20, 2009, at 5:39 PM, insightinmind wrote: On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Charles Davis wrote: Please note, I'm talking about the 'Write Zeros' operation, NOT just 'Erasing' ---[ Which is just Zeroing out the directory data, not elimination the 'bit patterns' on the platter surface.] Same meaning here ... sometimes called Secure Erase Zeroing or something. Zeroes get written, and bad sectors get mapped out ... hopefully for Partitions, too. If you go into Disk Utility, you'll see your devices laid out like : Disk model identification Drive Volume name (partition1) Drive Volume Name (Partition2) etc (as I recall, it's been a long time sine I used drives with multiple partitions, there's little reason to do so.) on the left hand side. Actions done while the top line is selected apply to the entire drive device, actions done while a volume is selected apply only to that volume. -- Bruce Johnson Wherever you go, there you are B. Banzai, PhD --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
What about SMART (S.M.A.R.T.) status and functionality? Shouldn't the drive's built-in SMART routines map out bad blocks? If they do, will the Surface Scan still try to read those blocks? BTW, is Tech Tools Deluxe really TechTool Pro, or is it a different program I haven't encoountered yet? - Aaron Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: gifutiger gifuti...@gmail.com Greetings ( + )!( + ) What you describe is exatly the same that I was having. Used Tech Tools Deluxe Surface Scan on my 320Gb drive (took about 12 Hrs.) and the report was Failed - Bad Blocks so I've laid that disk to rest RIP and have ordered a new drive. If you have Tech Tools Deluxe run the Surface Scan you will be surprised what it will find. Cheers - Harry - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 20, 2009, at 6:36 AM, Aaron wrote: What about SMART (S.M.A.R.T.) status and functionality? Shouldn't the drive's built-in SMART routines map out bad blocks? If they do, will the Surface Scan still try to read those blocks? AFAIK, original S.M.A.R.T. Status didn't do any disk corrective actions: only measures exceeding certain values. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T. Looks like newer technologies may also try to do this corrective action you talk about. I always thought (Re)Formatting a drive, zeroing out data, did the bad sector mapping out, but only during the formatting process. But that destroys all user data. Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 20, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Charles Davis wrote: On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Dan wrote: That's re-initializing a drive. You cannot reformat modern drives. The process of zeroing it -- writing zeros to each sector on the drive causes the hardware's bad block replacement mechanism to trigger as needed. What isn't being said here, is whether the 'bad block' mechanism is operational when zeroing at the partition level, or only when the complete hard disk is being 'zeroed'. Good point. I've always assumed partitions were being treated like a separate volume, and was being re-mapped. Gurus? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:06 PM, insightinmind wrote: On Mar 20, 2009, at 7:12 PM, Charles Davis wrote: On Mar 20, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Dan wrote: That's re-initializing a drive. You cannot reformat modern drives. The process of zeroing it -- writing zeros to each sector on the drive causes the hardware's bad block replacement mechanism to trigger as needed. What isn't being said here, is whether the 'bad block' mechanism is operational when zeroing at the partition level, or only when the complete hard disk is being 'zeroed'. Good point. I've always assumed partitions were being treated like a separate volume, and was being re-mapped. That's the way I'd like it to be, which means that the 'Bad Blocks' routines probably only work when Zeroing the complete Hard Disk. Chuck D. Gurus? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 20, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Charles Davis wrote: Please note, I'm talking about the 'Write Zeros' operation, NOT just 'Erasing' ---[ Which is just Zeroing out the directory data, not elimination the 'bit patterns' on the platter surface.] Same meaning here ... sometimes called Secure Erase Zeroing or something. Zeroes get written, and bad sectors get mapped out ... hopefully for Partitions, too. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
At 7:12 PM -0400 3/20/2009, Charles Davis wrote: The process of zeroing it -- writing zeros to each sector on the drive causes the hardware's bad block replacement mechanism to trigger as needed. What isn't being said here, is whether the 'bad block' mechanism is operational when zeroing at the partition level, or only when the complete hard disk is being 'zeroed'. The bad block replacement mechanism is in the controller. It is *always* active. Concepts such as partitions are logical things created as data on the drive, maintained WITHIN your computer - in the driver, file sytem, and OS *software*. The mechanism doesn't care about them, ever. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
At 8:11 PM -0400 3/20/2009, Charles Davis wrote: I've always assumed partitions were being treated like a separate volume, and was being re-mapped. That's the way I'd like it to be, which means that the 'Bad Blocks' routines probably only work when Zeroing the complete Hard Disk. No. The HD has no clue as to any logical set-up created on it by the driver / file system / OS in your computer. IOW, the HD is simply a stream of data blocks, and the controller a server thereof. All the partitions and such are logical constructs created in your computer only. Operations you do - move files around, zero things, etc, are meaningless to the HD's controller. It just sees the individual read and write commands sent to it by the driver. The HD's controller is smart wrt individual data blocks and the physical geometry of the drive *only*. In general (and *highly* simplified),... - A chunk of disk space is reserved for block replacements. - The driver issues logical read or write commands to the controller. The controller buffers things, screws around, etc, and eventually performs physical read or write operations. - The results of a physical read or write operation is checked against some ECC type codes *by the controller*. If the i/o operation, a test is initiated: the block is read and written repeatedly to see if the correct data can be pulled off of it. If the block finally reads ok, life continues. If the block continues to fail then it is mapped out, a replacment block is chosen, and a best-guess of the data is written to it. The trick is... that this all occurs between the controller and the HD mechanism. The computer has no idea it happened unless it asks for status. (that's where the SMART reporting stuff comes in). Iffa it no ask, it stays clueless. Now... We often recommend zero'ing a HD in order to handle stale blocks. The controllers bad block replacement is always active --- but it doesn't see a bad block until it's commanded to actually touch (read or write) that block! Zero'ing touches every block, thus forcing bad block mapping, hopefully before you put critical data there. HTH, - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
Greetings ( + )!( + ) What you describe is exatly the same that I was having. Used Tech Tools Deluxe Surface Scan on my 320Gb drive (took about 12 Hrs.) and the report was Failed - Bad Blocks so I've laid that disk to rest RIP and have ordered a new drive. If you have Tech Tools Deluxe run the Surface Scan you will be surprised what it will find. Cheers - Harry - ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?ºº?ø,¸¸,ø?º?ø On Mar 18, 10:58 am, Janine hbbst...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All - thanks for your advice. I think it's definitely a corrupted system problem. Tried to do an Archive and Install and the problem got worse, to the point where Disk First Aid has gone from saying there is nothing wrong with the disk, to saying it cannot be repaired! Yuck! From the OS X install disk, I can select OS9 on my computer as a startup disk and it starts and loads fine, with all files present and everything functioning. OS X won't load and now I just get a blue screen (before I was getting my custom desktop picture and the dock and file headers) I have ordered an upgrade for my Disk Warrior, and will just have to sit tight until it gets here! I'll be sure to let you know if it fixes the problem. BTW - I started to notice little problems with my system after I installed the last system update from Apple. Has anyone else experienced problems after that update? Just wondering, because my system was very stable until then. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
Hi All - thanks for your advice. I think it's definitely a corrupted system problem. Tried to do an Archive and Install and the problem got worse, to the point where Disk First Aid has gone from saying there is nothing wrong with the disk, to saying it cannot be repaired! Yuck! From the OS X install disk, I can select OS9 on my computer as a startup disk and it starts and loads fine, with all files present and everything functioning. OS X won't load and now I just get a blue screen (before I was getting my custom desktop picture and the dock and file headers) I have ordered an upgrade for my Disk Warrior, and will just have to sit tight until it gets here! I'll be sure to let you know if it fixes the problem. BTW - I started to notice little problems with my system after I installed the last system update from Apple. Has anyone else experienced problems after that update? Just wondering, because my system was very stable until then. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
As I said, I need help! I have a 1 Ghz Dual Processor Quick Silver with 1.5 GB ram, running OS 10.4.11 I had two harddrives installed. My main drive is 150 GB but shows up as being 120 gb. The other harddrive was about 80 GB. Anyway... I turned the computer on today and heard a persistant clicking noise I investigated a little, but was not too worried because the main boot drive was functioning normally. Later checked here on the list for possible reasons for the clicking noise and found it was likely harddrive failure... which is when I went looking for my second harddrive icon on the desktop... couldn't find it so I loaded in my OS X install disk and rebooted with it as the startup disk. The missing drive did not appear in the lineup. I then switched back to my boot drive and made backups of all my working files. However, I've lost access to whatever was on the second drive, and alas, do not have a recent backup. Is there any way to retrieve files from a dead drive? Okay so I'm now missing some stuff... mainly downloaded music, and purchased stock photos. BUT that's when it goes from bad to worse! I turned off the computer, unplugged it, grounded myself and went in an discounted the malfunctioning harddrive. Tried to reboot, heard the start-up chime, after along wait, got the grey apple logo screen, and then after another long wait, my desktop photo and dock appeared on the screen, but my files did not load just the spinning beach ball.. I let it sit for .5 hour but nothing was happening so I shut down the computer again and restarted by holding down the c key, since the install disk was still in the DVD drive. I then checked the boot volume and it came up that a minor repair was needed... did that, and then verfied the permissions. That came up saying that everything was wrong. So I ran repair permissions. Then I rebooted using the main drive, and that's when it gets stuck (as detailed above) My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? I don't have an up-to-date version of Disk Warrior. if I got the appropriate version and ran it, building a new volume directory for the disk, would that solve the prolem? Any other suggestions? I had a SCSI card in a slot that I wasn't using, so I pulled it out just in case it was interfering with the boot process in some way. Still get hung up at the desktop, with the spinning beachball. Like I said earlier... HELP! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
You may need to change the jumper setting and/or cable position on your boot drive. The easiest way to see if this is the problem is to put the old dead drive back in place, just as it was before. Your Mac should boot normally and you will be able to use Disk Utility to check the disk and permissions on yuor boot drive. When you remove the old drive look carefully at the label on the boot drive. It will show you the jumper configurations. With a single drive you want it on the end of the cable with the jumpers set to Master or Single Drive. You still might be able to get the data off your old drive if you have an external USB or Firewire adapter. The external power supply sometimes gives a little more power than the Macs internal PSU, just enought a get a borderline hard drive to spin up. No guarantees but it has worked for me more than once. On Mar 17, 6:39 am, Janine Cheung hbbst...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, I need help! I have a 1 Ghz Dual Processor Quick Silver with 1.5 GB ram, running OS 10.4.11 I had two harddrives installed. My main drive is 150 GB but shows up as being 120 gb. The other harddrive was about 80 GB. Anyway... I turned the computer on today and heard a persistant clicking noise I investigated a little, but was not too worried because the main boot drive was functioning normally. Later checked here on the list for possible reasons for the clicking noise and found it was likely harddrive failure... which is when I went looking for my second harddrive icon on the desktop... couldn't find it so I loaded in my OS X install disk and rebooted with it as the startup disk. The missing drive did not appear in the lineup. I then switched back to my boot drive and made backups of all my working files. However, I've lost access to whatever was on the second drive, and alas, do not have a recent backup. Is there any way to retrieve files from a dead drive? Okay so I'm now missing some stuff... mainly downloaded music, and purchased stock photos. BUT that's when it goes from bad to worse! I turned off the computer, unplugged it, grounded myself and went in an discounted the malfunctioning harddrive. Tried to reboot, heard the start-up chime, after along wait, got the grey apple logo screen, and then after another long wait, my desktop photo and dock appeared on the screen, but my files did not load just the spinning beach ball.. I let it sit for .5 hour but nothing was happening so I shut down the computer again and restarted by holding down the c key, since the install disk was still in the DVD drive. I then checked the boot volume and it came up that a minor repair was needed... did that, and then verfied the permissions. That came up saying that everything was wrong. So I ran repair permissions. Then I rebooted using the main drive, and that's when it gets stuck (as detailed above) My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? I don't have an up-to-date version of Disk Warrior. if I got the appropriate version and ran it, building a new volume directory for the disk, would that solve the prolem? Any other suggestions? I had a SCSI card in a slot that I wasn't using, so I pulled it out just in case it was interfering with the boot process in some way. Still get hung up at the desktop, with the spinning beachball. Like I said earlier... HELP! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 17, 6:39 am, Janine Cheung hbbst...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, I need help! I have a 1 Ghz Dual Processor Quick Silver with 1.5 GB ram, running OS 10.4.11 I have a QS 2002 Dual 1GHz ... nice machine. I believe your HD settings are CS or Cable Select. Make sure you didn't unplug that drive partially as well, when you removed the other one. Maybe reseat its ATA cable and power plug. You could Startup using the Tiger Install DVD/CD and after the Select Language Screen passes, go up to the Menus and find the Disk Utility. Run that and Repair Disk. Then go back to Startup Disk in the same Menu, and see if you can select the repaired hard drive to Startup from, and see if things go OK. Maybe someone else has ideas, too. Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
First things First Remove, or at least disconnect the second HD - leave out of the mix until you get the first HD working. [That way THOSE files will be safe from further damage, and probably recoverable later.] [Treat that HDs problems as a separate problem.] On Mar 17, 2009, at 6:39 AM, Janine Cheung wrote: As I said, I need help! I have a 1 Ghz Dual Processor Quick Silver with 1.5 GB ram, running OS 10.4.11 I had two harddrives installed. My main drive is 150 GB but shows up as being 120 gb. The other harddrive was about 80 GB. Anyway... I turned the computer on today and heard a persistant clicking noise I investigated a little, but was not too worried because the main boot drive was functioning normally. Later checked here on the list for possible reasons for the clicking noise and found it was likely harddrive failure... which is when I went looking for my second harddrive icon on the desktop... couldn't find it so I loaded in my OS X install disk and rebooted with it as the startup disk. The missing drive did not appear in the lineup. I then switched back to my boot drive and made backups of all my working files. Backups where? Removable media? Backups to a different partition on the same HD are still gone if the HD goes. However, I've lost access to whatever was on the second drive, and alas, do not have a recent backup. Is there any way to retrieve files from a dead drive? A supposed short term 'fix/cure' is to FREEZE the HD [remove, freezer overnight, reinstall, IMMEDIATE clone/ copy to another device/ location. Okay so I'm now missing some stuff... mainly downloaded music, and purchased stock photos. BUT that's when it goes from bad to worse! I turned off the computer, unplugged it, grounded myself and went in an discounted the malfunctioning harddrive. Tried to reboot, heard the start-up chime, after along wait, got the grey apple logo screen, and then after another long wait, my desktop photo and dock appeared on the screen, but my files did not load just the spinning beach ball.. I let it sit for .5 hour but nothing was happening so I shut down the computer again and restarted by holding down the c key, since the install disk was still in the DVD drive. I then checked the boot volume and it came up that a minor repair was needed... did that, and then verfied the permissions. That came up saying that everything was wrong. So I ran repair permissions. Then I rebooted using the main drive, and that's when it gets stuck (as detailed above) My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? No 'clicking', probably recoverable - Have you tried Disk Utility's 'repair disk' option --- re run until it comes up with a clean report. If the system still has problems at this point, Disk Warrior' may be the solution. I don't have an up-to-date version of Disk Warrior. if I got the appropriate version and ran it, building a new volume directory for the disk, would that solve the prolem? Any other suggestions? When you get things back operating, Run, don't walk to the nearest supplier of HD's and replace the 150GB. The original HD MAY be suitable for installation in an External Case, but if you do, don't forget that it has already had problems [in other words --- NOT for backing up irreplaceable files.] The 80GB is probably suitable for use as a 'door stop'. I had a SCSI card in a slot that I wasn't using, so I pulled it out just in case it was interfering with the boot process in some way. Still get hung up at the desktop, with the spinning beachball. Like I said earlier... HELP! Just how I would look at and attack this situation. Others may have other comments [maybe better]. Chuck D. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 17, 2009, at 6:39 AM, Janine Cheung wrote: As I said, I need help! I have a 1 Ghz Dual Processor Quick Silver with 1.5 GB ram, running OS 10.4.11 I had two harddrives installed. My main drive is 150 GB but shows up as being 120 gb. You must have a pre-2002 Quicksilver if your 128GB HD is showing up as 120? What QS do you have? I missed that on first reply. Or did you format the 150GB to be less than 128 making it 120? More detail/history would help. Are you running the HDs off the mobo ATA channel? or a PCI card? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 6:39 AM, Janine Cheung hbbst...@gmail.com wrote: Then I rebooted using the main drive, and that's when it gets stuck (as detailed above) My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? snip! Any other suggestions? http://www.drivesavers.com/ -- Best Regards, John Musbach --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
You might try an Archive and Install, I had this happen on my G4 iBook, but that was due to a bad DVD drive, that didn't install all the system files... Sounds like a similar problem. (System files corrupted) (Archive and install keeps all your files safe.) To get your files off, you could use Target Disk Mode and see if your HD's mount on another computer (using FireWire.) Good luck. -Cyrus On Mar 17, 2009, at 7:46 AM, John Musbach wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 6:39 AM, Janine Cheung hbbst...@gmail.com wrote: Then I rebooted using the main drive, and that's when it gets stuck (as detailed above) My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? snip! Any other suggestions? http://www.drivesavers.com/ -- Best Regards, John Musbach --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Help! I've lost one harddrive and now the main harddrive won't boot!
On Mar 17, 2009, at 5:39 AM, Janine Cheung wrote: My files are still on the boot drive, but how can I get the harddrive to mount? I don't have an up-to-date version of Disk Warrior. if I got the appropriate version and ran it, building a new volume directory for the disk, would that solve the prolem? If the problem is a corrupted disk directory, Disk Warrior would solve it. I've just gone through similar problems, that got complicated. (Long story.) In the end, even though I had two backups of the partition that was giving me trouble, I wasn't able to get a stable and usable one. I did the archive and install (several times) with no luck, then did a clean install thinking I could at least migrate all my stuff over using the setup-assistant, but that didn't work. I think the problem is that I was installing 10.4, but was migrating from later versions of apps that I had under 10.4.11--I probably should have done all the updates first, and then used set-up assistant to migrate stuff from the messed up drives. By that point, I was afraid of transferring something that was problematic, so I've just been manually moving stuff over. Anyway--I would definitely run Disk Warrior first. Good luck! Joe == Joe the Juggler 4148 Wyoming St. St. Louis, MO 63116 (314) 771-3243 http://joethejuggler.com == --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
