Re: hijacking

[Dan]

At 7:20 PM -0700 11/10/2010, Tina K. wrote:

So messages in a thread are linked together individually rather than a
common identification in the headers of all messages in the thread?


Right.  And the list of references makes up the branch of this 
particular thread, on its way up to the OP.


Take a look at the full headers in this thread.  Yours says:

  References: 
   
   
  In-Reply-To: 

Caveat:  Some mail clients strip these out.  So they end up 
subject-threading anyway.


- Dan.
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Re: hijacking

[Tina K.]

On 2010/11/10 10:00, Doug McNutt so eloquently wrote:


   Section 3.6.4


Note the In-Reply-To: header that contains the Message-ID: information from the 
message being replied to.

A recursive train of those headers gives mail software, especially lists, a way 
to make a collected display of threaded topics. Done that way there is no 
confusion when someone corrects a spelling error in a subject line or adds 
something like Re:, [G3-G5] or Antwort to a subject.


So messages in a thread are linked together individually rather than a 
common identification in the headers of all messages in the thread?


Thank you for the information and the links. This will make it possible 
for me to determine if it is a thread hijack or my email client that is 
causing some messages to appear not threaded correctly.


Tina

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Re: hijacking

[ah...clem]

On Nov 10, 2:06 pm, "Wallace Adrian D'Alessio"
 wrote:

> Clem, Dude, Time out!
>
> The idea is to build community at LEM not chase people away no matter what
> you think about MichaelP your attitude and rudeness are against the grain
> and just unacceptable.
> The terms of use say so.

true enough.  i guess i crossed the line a bit.  but i am very annoyed
when a thread gets hi-jacked, even if i'm not the one who started it
or contributed to it.  it's frustrating that the nannies can be so
picky about things that seem insignificant to me, yet they don't
appear to reprimand those folks that repeatedly hijack threads.  so
when i saw the hijacker protest that the term hijacking was rude and
offensive, i guess i over-reacted a bit.  the net can be very
frustrating when people hide behind the electronic anonymity and say
things that they would never have the nads to say face-to-face.  i am
occasionally guilty as well.  apologies to all (except maybe the
hijacker).

> Some folks think this is a PC forum or something.

OUCH!

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Re: hijacking

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 4:53 PM, ah...clem  wrote:

>
>
> put yourself in the other person's shoes for one moment, instead of
> being a petulant child.  if someone posts a question and then some
> else uses that thread to change the subject, and also changes the
> subject line of the original thread, then the original poster may lose
> track of the replies to his/her thread, and all of the readers may
> lose track of the original discussion.  what about THEIR right to ask
> a question and get replies, and to follow a discussion without
> interruption and unnecessary confusion?
>
> are you so STOOPID that you can't figure out how to create a new
> thread instead of HI-JACKING someone elses', or just too frickin'
> LAZY?  maybe YOU should learn how to use an email client, and stop
> whining like a spoiled brat when someone gives you a TINY dose of well-
> deserved criticism.  if you don't like the comments from the
> listmembers, you are welcome to unsubscribe.  get over yourself, and
> quit being an inconsiderate ass, or go somewhere else for free advice.
>



Clem, Dude, Time out!

The idea is to build community at LEM not chase people away no matter what
you think about MichaelP your attitude and rudeness are against the grain
and just unacceptable.
The terms of use say so.

Some folks think this is a PC forum or something.






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Re: hijacking

[Dan]

At 8:53 AM -0800 11/10/2010, ah...clem wrote:

are you so STOOPID that


Enough.  Nannies, end this thread please.

- Dan.
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Re: hijacking

[Joshua Juran]

On Nov 10, 2010, at 8:53 AM, ah...clem wrote:


put yourself in the other person's shoes for one moment, instead of
being a petulant child.


Good advice.


are you so STOOPID that you can't figure out how to create a new
thread instead of HI-JACKING someone elses', or just too frickin'
LAZY?  maybe YOU should learn how to use an email client, and stop
whining like a spoiled brat when someone gives you a TINY dose of  
well-

deserved criticism.  if you don't like the comments from the
listmembers, you are welcome to unsubscribe.


Hmmm.


get over yourself, and quit being an inconsiderate ass...


Well put.  Although MichaelP is not whom I'd say this to.

Josh


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Re: hijacking

[Doug McNutt]

  Section 3.6.4


Note the In-Reply-To: header that contains the Message-ID: information from the 
message being replied to.

A recursive train of those headers gives mail software, especially lists, a way 
to make a collected display of threaded topics. Done that way there is no 
confusion when someone corrects a spelling error in a subject line or adds 
something like Re:, [G3-G5] or Antwort to a subject.

It's true that there are mail clients that don't follow the rules or have 
other, but unique to a particular software company, techniques.

This message will refer to:
Message-ID: 
when it is sent.

2. a. "To steal from as if by hijacking." seems to me to fit the description of 
the problem quite well.

It's probably better to accuse the poster who needs to learn the right way by 
referring to a hijacking than to call him a thief.

Better would be to call his attention to the rules as stated above. And, if his 
software doesn't do it for him, to propose a better client.  It would be 
interesting if all mail clients showed the In-Reply_To: headers that they are 
creating before they allow pushing the SEND button. But that would be much too 
confusing for the "average" user.  Sigh.

It would be possible for list software to enforce the rules by simply 
installing the old Subject: header from the message being replied to. At least 
it would cause the hijackers to complain and that would be a teaching 
opportunity. They would declare the list a hijacker for stealing their subject 
text.

-- 

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Re: hijacking

[ah...clem]

On Nov 10, 4:31 am, MichaelP  wrote:

> I'm sensitive to and I object strongly to use of the word hijack to refer
> to refer to posting an original request for friendly help and info from
> exoerts if the request is written in some un-obvious way to contain hidden
> reference to an existing thread -

i'm sensitive to and i strongly object to having threads hi-jacked
(see definition 1c of your post).

put yourself in the other person's shoes for one moment, instead of
being a petulant child.  if someone posts a question and then some
else uses that thread to change the subject, and also changes the
subject line of the original thread, then the original poster may lose
track of the replies to his/her thread, and all of the readers may
lose track of the original discussion.  what about THEIR right to ask
a question and get replies, and to follow a discussion without
interruption and unnecessary confusion?

are you so STOOPID that you can't figure out how to create a new
thread instead of HI-JACKING someone elses', or just too frickin'
LAZY?  maybe YOU should learn how to use an email client, and stop
whining like a spoiled brat when someone gives you a TINY dose of well-
deserved criticism.  if you don't like the comments from the
listmembers, you are welcome to unsubscribe.  get over yourself, and
quit being an inconsiderate ass, or go somewhere else for free advice.


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Re: hijacking

[Joshua Juran]

On Nov 10, 2010, at 1:31 AM, MichaelP wrote:



"Yes, it's hijacked. He hijacked "PowerMac G3 AIO 'snapping/ 
popping'" thread.

"

I'm sensitive to and I object strongly to use of the word hijack to  
refer to refer to posting an original request for friendly help and  
info from exoerts if the request is written in some un-obvious way  
to contain hidden reference to an existing thread -


The word hijack was only used because you posted an original request  
for help using the Reply feature of your mail client instead of  
composing a New message.  Your mail client sets headers indicating to  
Tina's mail client that your message is part of the same thread (even  
though the Subject has changed).


For an example of why this is problematic, suppose I look at my new G- 
list messages.  I decide that, say, 'Initializing hard drive' doesn't  
look interesting to me, so I click, hit Command-Shift-K (to select the  
thread), and Delete.  Now I've just deleted that thread *and* the  
original one, and I might not even be aware of it.


Asking for help id not stealing, it is not swindling and it does not  
involve extortion.


You're correct; it's none of those things.

If what I do to post my request causes problems it's the auto- 
response system which needs modifying.


This has nothing to do with auto-responders, just regular mail user  
agents.



I've been using and owning info listserves for almost 20 years
and never have I learned that "hijacking is bad netiquette, and
highly frowned upon" or that "Whenever you're starting a new  
Subject, you
need to start with a "New Mail" and not a "Reply" or "Forward" or  
heaven's

forbid a "Reply All""


Well, now you know.

	Indeed, while I'm aware of the existence of headers this is the  
first listerve in which I'm told that old subjects are kept in  
invariant form.


To the contrary, you are free (and encouraged) to change the Subject  
field as the conversation morphs over time -- provided it's the same  
conversation.  If you're starting a new conversation, you should start  
a new thread.


If that's the way the owner sets up a lkistserve, so be it, But  
please choos a less rude word to describe

the process.


Personally, I decline your request in general -- though I'll probably  
make a point not to use the term in reference to you.


I appreciate the willingness of subscribers to share  knowledge, But  
when I ask for help , to be told that my request is tantamount to  
stealing or extortion is just too much


Nobody is accusing you of criminal behavior -- merely a breach of  
netiquette.  And the word we use for this particular faux pas is  
'hijacking'.


Just remember that it's not personal.

Josh


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Re: hijacking

[Tim Gochnour]

On Nov 10, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Dan wrote:


At 1:31 AM -0800 11/10/2010, MichaelP wrote:
[quoting repaired]
Yes, it's hijacked. He hijacked "PowerMac G3 AIO 'snapping/ 
popping'" thread.


I'm sensitive to and I object strongly to use of the word hijack  
to refer to refer to posting an original request for friendly help  
and info from exoerts if the request is written in some un-obvious  
way to contain hidden reference to an existing thread


A thread is said to be hijacked when someone posts into it a  
message that is totally unrelated to the thread, expecting to get  
some response.  Doesn't matter how you feel about that term -  
that's simply what it's called.  This is different than thread  
forking or drift in that those are usually at least somewhat  
related to the original topic.


The problem is that Google threads by *reference*, not by  
*subject*. To create a new thread, you must create a whole new  
post.  You cannot simply change the subject field -- which is what  
you did.


- Dan.


Thank you, Dan.  You are ABSOLUTELY correct   as quite often.  :)

Tim

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Re: hijacking

[Dan]

At 1:31 AM -0800 11/10/2010, MichaelP wrote:
[quoting repaired]

Yes, it's hijacked. He hijacked "PowerMac G3 AIO 'snapping/popping'" thread.


I'm sensitive to and I object strongly to use of the word hijack to 
refer to refer to posting an original request for friendly help and 
info from exoerts if the request is written in some un-obvious way 
to contain hidden reference to an existing thread


A thread is said to be hijacked when someone posts into it a message 
that is totally unrelated to the thread, expecting to get some 
response.  Doesn't matter how you feel about that term - that's 
simply what it's called.  This is different than thread forking or 
drift in that those are usually at least somewhat related to the 
original topic.


The problem is that Google threads by *reference*, not by *subject*. 
To create a new thread, you must create a whole new post.  You cannot 
simply change the subject field -- which is what you did.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: hijacking

[Wallace Adrian D'Alessio]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 9:31 AM, MichaelP  wrote:

>
> "Yes, it's hijacked. He hijacked "PowerMac G3 AIO 'snapping/popping'"
> thread.
> "
>
> I'm sensitive to and I object strongly to use of the word hijack to refer
> to refer to posting an original request for friendly help and info from
> exoerts if the request is written in some un-obvious way to contain hidden
> reference to an existing thread -
>
>
> highjack
>
> 1.
> a. To stop and rob (a vehicle in transit).
> b. To steal (goods) from a vehicle in transit.
> c. To seize control of (a moving vehicle) by use of force, especially in
> order to reach an alternate destination.
> 2.
> a. To steal from as if by hijacking.
> b. To swindle or subject to extortion
>
>
> Asking for help id not stealing, it is not swindling and it does not
> involve extortion.  If what I do to post my request causes problems it's the
> auto-response system which needs modifying.
>
>  I've been using and owning info listserves for almost 20 years
> and never have I learned that "hijacking is bad netiquette, and
> highly frowned upon" or that "Whenever you're starting a new Subject, you
> need to start with a "New Mail" and not a "Reply" or "Forward" or heaven's
> forbid a "Reply All""
>Indeed, while I'm aware of the existence of headers this is the
> first listerve in which I'm told that old subjects are kept in invariant
> form. If that's the way the owner sets up a lkistserve, so be it, But please
> choos a less rude word to describe
> the process.
>
> I appreciate the willingness of subscribers to share  knowledge, But when I
> ask for help , to be told that my request is tantamount to stealing or
> extortion is just too much
>



You are obviously a bit upset. But this post does not make the situation
very clear.

As a more constructive use of your time how about just restating your
problem and use a different title? That should get you the help you need.







-- 
Adrian D'Alessio aka; Fluxstringer

fluxstrin...@gmail.com

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