Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Michael. Copyright issues aside, the conversion of a mainstream product is very difficult at best. You're assuming someone out there will have the free time to convert such a game into a format of your choosing. You're also assuming that this is easy. It isn't. Video game companies have entire teams and departments dedicated to the development of any one product. Programmers who design games for the blind have, at best, maybe two or three cooperatives. Video game companies have a large budget, with which they may hire additional programmers, obtain media/resources, etc. The sounds and vocal acting for these games aren't free, you know. All that, along with a slew of other factors that I've elected not to mention (for brevity's sake), makes the prospect of converting a mainstream game into an audio-only format pretty daunting. Also remember that, while an emulator may be free, and freely available, and furthermore legal, the possession of the roms or digital game images without actually having the original is a violation. Usage of material specific to such a game is also a breach of copyright, so that means anyone developing an accessible version of Mortal Kombat couldn't use anything from the original game. In essence, then, it would no longer even be Mortal Kombat. You can always learn character layouts, especially in mortal kombat. Mortal kombat's character screen always speaks the name of the character you're selecting. If you're hell-bent on playing these games, invest the time in learning the character screen by selecting one character, returning to the character screen, selecting another, then repeating the process. Remember where each character is, and that's one les thing to worry about. In fact, the character screen will be the least of your worries. Once you start playing the game, you've got to know where the opponent is, whether he/she is jumping or not, crouching, blocking, stepping towards you, walking away... most of these things are not conveyed by sound (particularly not in the older Mortal Kombat games). I'll echo the sentiments of other respondents: Use the resources that are available. www.gamefaqs.com www.gamewinners.com I use both of those sites fairly frequently when I have a mind to play games intended for the sighted. Remember, the rest of us are blind, too, and we've learned that these techniques may or may not make a game playable. No disparagement intended, and I hope none will be implied, but effort and success go hand in hand. When I started messing around with my Playstation, I had to learn screens and such, remember character placements, moves, etc. While it's true I did have some sighted assistance, such was not always the case. If you'd like a rough explanation of how to make Mortal Kombat or other games in the same vain work for you, I'm sure some few of us would be glad to help. Kai --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Michael, As a blind gamer and software developer myself I would love to be able to convert all of my mainstream games into audio games, to make them 100% accessible, as much as the next blind gamer on this list. However, no matter how much I would like to convert all of my mainstream games into audio games the reality is it isn't as simple and straight forward as you assume. There are several factors that prevents any accessible game developer from just picking his/her favorite mainstream game and creating an audio only version. First, there are several legal issues involved in creating an accessible clone of Mortal Kombat or any other mainstream game title. Unless the accessible game developer obtains written permission from the copyright holder it is illegal to create and sell games using any trade marks, characters, sounds, music, etc from an existing game title. The only exception to this rule is if you create it for yourself for personal use, and not for public distribution. Second, I've had personal experience dealing with some of these mainstream companies about game accessibility, and they are simply not receptive. Not only are they unwilling to make accessible versions of their games for the blind they aren't willing to license it out to a third-party blind game developer such as myself. So getting legal permission from these companies is like a snowball's chance in hell. Third, most of the audio game developers out here are one to three man operations. As a result creating any game is a major commitment, takes many hours of time, costs money for music/sounds, and so on. Some game developers sell their games to offset the time and money spent on creating the game. However, since it is illegal to do so without written permission from the copyright holder it is not a good legal or financial business decision to create games based on someone else's work. Fourth, while there are some loop holes an accessible game developer might use such as making the project free, open source, publish it as fan fiction, etc they are all technically still consider copyright infringement in the eyes of the law. The only difference with this approach is that a copyright holder may choose to get a court cease and desist order instead of suing the accessible game developer outright for copyright infringement. Fifth, while we all know it is inconvenient to play the mainstream versions of games like Mortal Kombat they are still accessible enough that many people here enjoy playing them as is. As a result most audio game developers feel like this is reinventing the wheel with quite a bit of legal and financial well being at stake. In other words the risk is greater than the rewards for making a clone of game x. Finally, I'm blind myself so I know how difficult it can be to play some of these mainstream games. Especially, when you are alone. Never-the-less once you memorize some of the menus, where things are, etc it is possible to play some of the mainstream games on your own. This obviously isn't for everyone, but enough people are able to do it to make it a feasible solution. I know as well as anyone the situation sucks. However, if you have an idea how to improve the situation let's have it. We all could use new ideas. If you are willing to learn programming and don't care about copyright laws you could convert the games yourself. I think you'll discover it isn't a clear cut or easy prospect you are suggesting here. Smile. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
You basically said what I was going to say. Although, I will also say that as things go, the older Mortal Kombats were actualy good about letting you know whether your opponent is jumping or not. Street Fighter was the same, and so is virtually any fighting game. I haven't yet played a fighting game where there has been no sound for jumping. As for having a voice tell you what was going on in the game... I'm sorry, but one genre where that would be the completely wrong idea would be fighting games. Just because that most fighting games are so fast paste that even if by some miracle we managed to recreate one if you wanted it to be modern it would be way too fast to keep up with anything. So bottom line as Kai said. Remember that most of the stuff we do as blind gamers comes out of websites. gamefaqs.com, gamespot.com... etc. But more often than not, there's trial and error. Any other mainstream gamer who still games or used to game can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's always been the case I'm the type who absolutely says no to have someone sit down and read every single item on the menus for me. Too much to remember. Below is an idea which I think could help. I think, if everyone is willing, a gang should get together on skype or teamtalk or something, comprised of experienced gamers such as myself, Brian and whoever else wants to join, maybe more people with ps3s again like myself, as well as have some people who are interested in gaming or people who are just starting out and want to know what type of games can be played. We can explain things and demonstrate games, etc. How does that sound for everyone? - Original Message - From: Kai kaixi...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there Michael. Copyright issues aside, the conversion of a mainstream product is very difficult at best. You're assuming someone out there will have the free time to convert such a game into a format of your choosing. You're also assuming that this is easy. It isn't. Video game companies have entire teams and departments dedicated to the development of any one product. Programmers who design games for the blind have, at best, maybe two or three cooperatives. Video game companies have a large budget, with which they may hire additional programmers, obtain media/resources, etc. The sounds and vocal acting for these games aren't free, you know. All that, along with a slew of other factors that I've elected not to mention (for brevity's sake), makes the prospect of converting a mainstream game into an audio-only format pretty daunting. Also remember that, while an emulator may be free, and freely available, and furthermore legal, the possession of the roms or digital game images without actually having the original is a violation. Usage of material specific to such a game is also a breach of copyright, so that means anyone developing an accessible version of Mortal Kombat couldn't use anything from the original game. In essence, then, it would no longer even be Mortal Kombat. You can always learn character layouts, especially in mortal kombat. Mortal kombat's character screen always speaks the name of the character you're selecting. If you're hell-bent on playing these games, invest the time in learning the character screen by selecting one character, returning to the character screen, selecting another, then repeating the process. Remember where each character is, and that's one les thing to worry about. In fact, the character screen will be the least of your worries. Once you start playing the game, you've got to know where the opponent is, whether he/she is jumping or not, crouching, blocking, stepping towards you, walking away... most of these things are not conveyed by sound (particularly not in the older Mortal Kombat games). I'll echo the sentiments of other respondents: Use the resources that are available. www.gamefaqs.com www.gamewinners.com I use both of those sites fairly frequently when I have a mind to play games intended for the sighted. Remember, the rest of us are blind, too, and we've learned that these techniques may or may not make a game playable. No disparagement intended, and I hope none will be implied, but effort and success go hand in hand. When I started messing around with my Playstation, I had to learn screens and such, remember character placements, moves, etc. While it's true I did have some sighted assistance, such was not always the case. If you'd like a rough explanation of how to make Mortal Kombat or other games in the same vain work for you, I'm sure some few of us would be glad to help. Kai --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi Allison, Agreed. None of us stand to gain anything by bemoaning the status quo. What we need to have is some of that proactive thinking that will help us adapt to the situation. There are probably lots of alternatives here even if they aren't ideal. One thing we can't do is ask a developer to break the law by ignoring existing copyright laws. That's unreasonable and will put one of our developers legally and financially at risk. That's unacceptable as far as I am concerned. Allison Mervis wrote: And in an ideal world, that would be peachy. However, in the real world, it's not always possible to have sighted help, so you have to learn to adapt. One possible solution that might work is to start some kind of website where people submit descriptions of the layouts of screens for these games, as well as the actions required to play them without sight. Maybe something like this already exists, in which case there's no need to reinvent the wheel. But instead of bemoaning the hopelessness of a situation, try to find ways to change it. A little proactive creativity can often go a long way. Smile. Allison --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi, Not only that, but one fact some people often overlook is some game's can't be completely converted to an accessible version for one reason or another. There are lots of things a vidio game designer can do with graphics that can't be easily translated into audio. It can be something as simple as a different color of enemy to something much more complicated like getting a clue by looking at a picture. One way or another the same information a sighted person gets by looking at the screen has to be accurately conveyed via audio. That's often not possible or difficult depending on the game in question. Bryan Peterson wrote: Agreed. Not to mention that as I already said it would be illegal, even if one could get one's hands on the game's source code, to modify it in the way a totally blind person would need. And I'm sorry to say, but Ii caught a distinct whiff of entitlement syndrome in the initial post. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi, thanks Kai. I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak. As Kai pointed out legal issues aside time is a major factor when considering creating any type of game. Some games such as Doom III was a major undertaking even with all the resources of a mainstream game company. If a mainstream game company has to spend lots of time and money creating a game like Doom III then there is no realistic way a ssmall one, two, or three man operation can hope to compete. We simply don't have the resources to make the attempt. Let's assume mainstream game x takes a year to complete even with all the resources of the company. Assuming our accessible game developer/developers can access the graphics, music, and sounds he/she will probably take two or three years attempting to create that game. The process is going to be very slow and tedious without much reward for his/her efforts. It is a thankless task. Kai wrote: Michael. Copyright issues aside, the conversion of a mainstream product is very difficult at best. You're assuming someone out there will have the free time to convert such a game into a format of your choosing. You're also assuming that this is easy. It isn't. Video game companies have entire teams and departments dedicated to the development of any one product. Programmers who design games for the blind have, at best, maybe two or three cooperatives. Video game companies have a large budget, with which they may hire additional programmers, obtain media/resources, etc. The sounds and vocal acting for these games aren't free, you know. All that, along with a slew of other factors that I've elected not to mention (for brevity's sake), makes the prospect of converting a mainstream game into an audio-only format pretty daunting. Also remember that, while an emulator may be free, and freely available, and furthermore legal, the possession of the roms or digital game images without actually having the original is a violation. Usage of material specific to such a game is also a breach of copyright, so that means anyone developing an accessible version of Mortal Kombat couldn't use anything from the original game. In essence, then, it would no longer even be Mortal Kombat. You can always learn character layouts, especially in mortal kombat. Mortal kombat's character screen always speaks the name of the character you're selecting. If you're hell-bent on playing these games, invest the time in learning the character screen by selecting one character, returning to the character screen, selecting another, then repeating the process. Remember where each character is, and that's one les thing to worry about. In fact, the character screen will be the least of your worries. Once you start playing the game, you've got to know where the opponent is, whether he/she is jumping or not, crouching, blocking, stepping towards you, walking away... most of these things are not conveyed by sound (particularly not in the older Mortal Kombat games). I'll echo the sentiments of other respondents: Use the resources that are available. www.gamefaqs.com www.gamewinners.com I use both of those sites fairly frequently when I have a mind to play games intended for the sighted. Remember, the rest of us are blind, too, and we've learned that these techniques may or may not make a game playable. No disparagement intended, and I hope none will be implied, but effort and success go hand in hand. When I started messing around with my Playstation, I had to learn screens and such, remember character placements, moves, etc. While it's true I did have some sighted assistance, such was not always the case. If you'd like a rough explanation of how to make Mortal Kombat or other games in the same vain work for you, I'm sure some few of us would be glad to help. Kai --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi, Well, there are a number of solutions for that particular problem. Let's use a real world example here fordemonstration. In Tomb Raider The Prophecy there are a number of enemy wolves Lara Croft has to kill or avoid. The color of the wolf determines how deadly it is. A gray wolf is relatively easy to beat, does little damage, etc where the black wolves are the most difficult. One solution is to create a specific growel sound for each color of wolf so that someone can audably tell them apart. However, unless you know in advance that growel sound x is for a gray or black wolf it isn't of much use until you play the game a while. The other way is to have a hot key that announces the nearest enemy in the room like Shades of Doom. However, the problem with that method is that slows down the game play, because you constantly have to press the key, button, whatever to find out what you are fighting. That might be critical in a game that requires quick reflexes and decision making. Such as the various priests in the game that tosses different colored fireballs that range from slightly harmful to instant death. You have to see the color of the fireball and decide right away if you are going to avoid it or take the hit. There is no time in a game like that to press a key and see if the fireball is red, yellow, or purple. You have to act right away or you are in trouble. What most accessible game developers try to do is include both different sounds for enemies as well as speak the type of enemy whenand where possible. Still that is slightly more expensive. A mainstream developer can buy one sound for fireballs and use it regardless of color since they assume the person can see it on his/her screen. A blind accessible developer has to come up with a unique sound for each color of fireball in the hope of making it easier for the blind player to determine the color of the fireball being tossed at him/her. It isn't complicated to fix, but takes much more effort to translate the same information that a person sees on screen to someone using audio only. Clement Chou wrote: Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
In those sorts of translation cases, I do believe there are things which could be done, for example rather than a completely different sound for deadlier fireballs, lowering the sounds pitch, thus the lower pitched the sound the more dangerous the fireball. to me, the most difficult information to convey from graphics to audio is some of the vertical spacial information, - especially in 2d games, or in an environment where it's necessary to examine the vertical plane at the same time as the horizontal quickly. I do think however, (as I said in my audeasy artical), the resources available in terms of what sounds could be used for what events haven't been as fully well tapped as they could be. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there Hi, Well, there are a number of solutions for that particular problem. Let's use a real world example here fordemonstration. In Tomb Raider The Prophecy there are a number of enemy wolves Lara Croft has to kill or avoid. The color of the wolf determines how deadly it is. A gray wolf is relatively easy to beat, does little damage, etc where the black wolves are the most difficult. One solution is to create a specific growel sound for each color of wolf so that someone can audably tell them apart. However, unless you know in advance that growel sound x is for a gray or black wolf it isn't of much use until you play the game a while. The other way is to have a hot key that announces the nearest enemy in the room like Shades of Doom. However, the problem with that method is that slows down the game play, because you constantly have to press the key, button, whatever to find out what you are fighting. That might be critical in a game that requires quick reflexes and decision making. Such as the various priests in the game that tosses different colored fireballs that range from slightly harmful to instant death. You have to see the color of the fireball and decide right away if you are going to avoid it or take the hit. There is no time in a game like that to press a key and see if the fireball is red, yellow, or purple. You have to act right away or you are in trouble. What most accessible game developers try to do is include both different sounds for enemies as well as speak the type of enemy whenand where possible. Still that is slightly more expensive. A mainstream developer can buy one sound for fireballs and use it regardless of color since they assume the person can see it on his/her screen. A blind accessible developer has to come up with a unique sound for each color of fireball in the hope of making it easier for the blind player to determine the color of the fireball being tossed at him/her. It isn't complicated to fix, but takes much more effort to translate the same information that a person sees on screen to someone using audio only. Clement Chou wrote: Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Well I kind of figured that, and that makes sense. I do agree that having a key tell you what everything is would slow down the gameplay. But could you, say, have an option for sound descriptions in the main menu or something, like most other accessible games. But in a less expensive way.. though this would result in a game sounding a bit weird, could you, say, raise the pitch of something? not to the point where it sounds distorted, just enough for a noticeable difference. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there Hi, Well, there are a number of solutions for that particular problem. Let's use a real world example here fordemonstration. In Tomb Raider The Prophecy there are a number of enemy wolves Lara Croft has to kill or avoid. The color of the wolf determines how deadly it is. A gray wolf is relatively easy to beat, does little damage, etc where the black wolves are the most difficult. One solution is to create a specific growel sound for each color of wolf so that someone can audably tell them apart. However, unless you know in advance that growel sound x is for a gray or black wolf it isn't of much use until you play the game a while. The other way is to have a hot key that announces the nearest enemy in the room like Shades of Doom. However, the problem with that method is that slows down the game play, because you constantly have to press the key, button, whatever to find out what you are fighting. That might be critical in a game that requires quick reflexes and decision making. Such as the various priests in the game that tosses different colored fireballs that range from slightly harmful to instant death. You have to see the color of the fireball and decide right away if you are going to avoid it or take the hit. There is no time in a game like that to press a key and see if the fireball is red, yellow, or purple. You have to act right away or you are in trouble. What most accessible game developers try to do is include both different sounds for enemies as well as speak the type of enemy whenand where possible. Still that is slightly more expensive. A mainstream developer can buy one sound for fireballs and use it regardless of color since they assume the person can see it on his/her screen. A blind accessible developer has to come up with a unique sound for each color of fireball in the hope of making it easier for the blind player to determine the color of the fireball being tossed at him/her. It isn't complicated to fix, but takes much more effort to translate the same information that a person sees on screen to someone using audio only. Clement Chou wrote: Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi Dark, Agreed. As I said before there are several different ways a developer might handle the problem of translating different colored enemies, different colored fireballs, etc in to audio. Changing the pitch of the sound in real time up or down is one way to do it. Although, not all sound APIs and platforms supports this ability. However, I do agree one of the biggest problems is accurately conveying spacial orientation to a blind player in real time. It is true that XNA and DirectX have virtual 3D audio support, but the fact is most blind players don't own the equipment necessary to take full advantage of the technology even when the game supports it. For me one of the biggest problems in creating the Genesis 3D engine is how to pass on a full 3d environment, in audio, and have it all make sense to a blind gamer. I know lots of player's complain about having issues playing Shades of Doom which is all arranged on a 2d grid. My new titles will be on a 3d grid meaning the player can move foward/backward, left/right, up/down. Even with Virtual 3D audio at my command it isn't always easy to determine if an object is above or below me unless I do something creative like change the pitch relative to the player like increase the pitch if it is up and lower it if it is below the player etc. However, changing pitch on some sounds has an undesirable effect. Some sounds don't sound good when the pitch is changed too much. dark wrote: In those sorts of translation cases, I do believe there are things which could be done, for example rather than a completely different sound for deadlier fireballs, lowering the sounds pitch, thus the lower pitched the sound the more dangerous the fireball. to me, the most difficult information to convey from graphics to audio is some of the vertical spacial information, - especially in 2d games, or in an environment where it's necessary to examine the vertical plane at the same time as the horizontal quickly. I do think however, (as I said in my audeasy artical), the resources available in terms of what sounds could be used for what events haven't been as fully well tapped as they could be. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there Hi, Well, there are a number of solutions for that particular problem. Let's use a real world example here fordemonstration. In Tomb Raider The Prophecy there are a number of enemy wolves Lara Croft has to kill or avoid. The color of the wolf determines how deadly it is. A gray wolf is relatively easy to beat, does little damage, etc where the black wolves are the most difficult. One solution is to create a specific growel sound for each color of wolf so that someone can audably tell them apart. However, unless you know in advance that growel sound x is for a gray or black wolf it isn't of much use until you play the game a while. The other way is to have a hot key that announces the nearest enemy in the room like Shades of Doom. However, the problem with that method is that slows down the game play, because you constantly have to press the key, button, whatever to find out what you are fighting. That might be critical in a game that requires quick reflexes and decision making. Such as the various priests in the game that tosses different colored fireballs that range from slightly harmful to instant death. You have to see the color of the fireball and decide right away if you are going to avoid it or take the hit. There is no time in a game like that to press a key and see if the fireball is red, yellow, or purple. You have to act right away or you are in trouble. What most accessible game developers try to do is include both different sounds for enemies as well as speak the type of enemy whenand where possible. Still that is slightly more expensive. A mainstream developer can buy one sound for fireballs and use it regardless of color since they assume the person can see it on his/her screen. A blind accessible developer has to come up with a unique sound for each color of fireball in the hope of making it easier for the blind player to determine the color of the fireball being tossed at him/her. It isn't complicated to fix, but takes much more effort to translate the same information that a person sees on screen to someone using audio only. Clement Chou wrote: Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Hi, Like I said to Dark changing the pitch, adding an item in the sound descriptions menu, etc is all easy stuff to do if it is something simple like trying to figure out if you are being hit by a yellow fireball or a purple fireball or figuring out if you are fighting a gray wolf or a black one. I only used that as a simple example of something that could be easily resolved. Some things in mainstream games aren't as easily resolved. For example, a number of years ago, before I lost my sight, I played this game that would allow you to press a button and it would display a graphical map of the rooms and corridors you have already explored. Adding a similar feature to an audio only game is problematic. How exactly do you translate a fully graphical map into an audio format that can be easily understood by a blind player? One solution that GMA uses in games like Shades of Doom is to print a copy of the map out on a braille printer. That certainly makes the map accessible, but that method requires the end user to own a braille printer and paper to use that feature. It isn't exactly a cost effective way to relay the same information a sighted player can get at one glance. The game can save the map to a text file and the player could view it on a braille display, but that assumes the player has a braille display to use. Again that isn't a cost effective or catch all solution either. Finally, there is the audio map used in Sarah that gives you a rough idea where things are by using sounds. Unfortunately, no matter how much I try I can't quite figure out where exactly things are by using the audio map. So it falls short of conveying the information it was intended to. Clement Chou wrote: Well I kind of figured that, and that makes sense. I do agree that having a key tell you what everything is would slow down the gameplay. But could you, say, have an option for sound descriptions in the main menu or something, like most other accessible games. But in a less expensive way.. though this would result in a game sounding a bit weird, could you, say, raise the pitch of something? not to the point where it sounds distorted, just enough for a noticeable difference. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there Hi, Well, there are a number of solutions for that particular problem. Let's use a real world example here fordemonstration. In Tomb Raider The Prophecy there are a number of enemy wolves Lara Croft has to kill or avoid. The color of the wolf determines how deadly it is. A gray wolf is relatively easy to beat, does little damage, etc where the black wolves are the most difficult. One solution is to create a specific growel sound for each color of wolf so that someone can audably tell them apart. However, unless you know in advance that growel sound x is for a gray or black wolf it isn't of much use until you play the game a while. The other way is to have a hot key that announces the nearest enemy in the room like Shades of Doom. However, the problem with that method is that slows down the game play, because you constantly have to press the key, button, whatever to find out what you are fighting. That might be critical in a game that requires quick reflexes and decision making. Such as the various priests in the game that tosses different colored fireballs that range from slightly harmful to instant death. You have to see the color of the fireball and decide right away if you are going to avoid it or take the hit. There is no time in a game like that to press a key and see if the fireball is red, yellow, or purple. You have to act right away or you are in trouble. What most accessible game developers try to do is include both different sounds for enemies as well as speak the type of enemy whenand where possible. Still that is slightly more expensive. A mainstream developer can buy one sound for fireballs and use it regardless of color since they assume the person can see it on his/her screen. A blind accessible developer has to come up with a unique sound for each color of fireball in the hope of making it easier for the blind player to determine the color of the fireball being tossed at him/her. It isn't complicated to fix, but takes much more effort to translate the same information that a person sees on screen to someone using audio only. Clement Chou wrote: Well, if it's a different color of enemy one would think we could do something like have voices varying as a substitute for colors... but that would be expensive too, wouldn't it? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
[Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
i have thought about game emulater for different kind old video games. since people can get old video games emulater for free on the web and download the thing so that they can play their favoret games on the computer why can't someone convert games like mortal kombat into an audio game some of you people on this list think that all of us can have someone come to our home to help us with video games. but some of us don't have it so easy as others so that why i will always ask for converted game to audio. so that why i can't play any of the sighted people games because i live alone and no one will come to my home and tell me what is on the screen and i don't think we the blind should remember whats on the screen we should be able to go to the game and have a voice to tell us what is on the menus and whats our character is doing and what are surrounding areas is doing aswell. or make some type of sound -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
There's just one problem with that. That would be illegal. You might be able to get away with creating a game in a similar style as one of your old favorites, but even that isn't entirely foolproof if the original game's developer finds out and sees too many similarities. Thomas Ward has personal experience with some of what can happen if you aren't careful. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there i have thought about game emulater for different kind old video games. since people can get old video games emulater for free on the web and download the thing so that they can play their favoret games on the computer why can't someone convert games like mortal kombat into an audio game some of you people on this list think that all of us can have someone come to our home to help us with video games. but some of us don't have it so easy as others so that why i will always ask for converted game to audio. so that why i can't play any of the sighted people games because i live alone and no one will come to my home and tell me what is on the screen and i don't think we the blind should remember whats on the screen we should be able to go to the game and have a voice to tell us what is on the menus and whats our character is doing and what are surrounding areas is doing aswell. or make some type of sound -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
And in an ideal world, that would be peachy. However, in the real world, it's not always possible to have sighted help, so you have to learn to adapt. One possible solution that might work is to start some kind of website where people submit descriptions of the layouts of screens for these games, as well as the actions required to play them without sight. Maybe something like this already exists, in which case there's no need to reinvent the wheel. But instead of bemoaning the hopelessness of a situation, try to find ways to change it. A little proactive creativity can often go a long way. Smile. Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 8:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there i have thought about game emulater for different kind old video games. since people can get old video games emulater for free on the web and download the thing so that they can play their favoret games on the computer why can't someone convert games like mortal kombat into an audio game some of you people on this list think that all of us can have someone come to our home to help us with video games. but some of us don't have it so easy as others so that why i will always ask for converted game to audio. so that why i can't play any of the sighted people games because i live alone and no one will come to my home and tell me what is on the screen and i don't think we the blind should remember whats on the screen we should be able to go to the game and have a voice to tell us what is on the menus and whats our character is doing and what are surrounding areas is doing aswell. or make some type of sound -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
completely agree. in this case, there's already www.gamefaqs.com it wasn't designed for the blind, but in a lot of faqs they describe the menus and other screens. and as i already sayd, what's the problem in asking here help for (certain) game that you're having difficulties? -Mensagem original- De: Allison Mervis alliso...@gmail.com Para: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Data: Domingo, 6 de Setembro de 2009 21:45 Assunto: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there And in an ideal world, that would be peachy. However, in the real world, it's not always possible to have sighted help, so you have to learn to adapt. One possible solution that might work is to start some kind of website where people submit descriptions of the layouts of screens for these games, as well as the actions required to play them without sight. Maybe something like this already exists, in which case there's no need to reinvent the wheel. But instead of bemoaning the hopelessness of a situation, try to find ways to change it. A little proactive creativity can often go a long way. Smile. Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 8:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there i have thought about game emulater for different kind old video games. since people can get old video games emulater for free on the web and download the thing so that they can play their favoret games on the computer why can't someone convert games like mortal kombat into an audio game some of you people on this list think that all of us can have someone come to our home to help us with video games. but some of us don't have it so easy as others so that why i will always ask for converted game to audio. so that why i can't play any of the sighted people games because i live alone and no one will come to my home and tell me what is on the screen and i don't think we the blind should remember whats on the screen we should be able to go to the game and have a voice to tell us what is on the menus and whats our character is doing and what are surrounding areas is doing aswell. or make some type of sound -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there
Agreed. Not to mention that as I already said it would be illegal, even if one could get one's hands on the game's source code, to modify it in the way a totally blind person would need. And I'm sorry to say, but Ii caught a distinct whiff of entitlement syndrome in the initial post. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: Allison Mervis alliso...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there And in an ideal world, that would be peachy. However, in the real world, it's not always possible to have sighted help, so you have to learn to adapt. One possible solution that might work is to start some kind of website where people submit descriptions of the layouts of screens for these games, as well as the actions required to play them without sight. Maybe something like this already exists, in which case there's no need to reinvent the wheel. But instead of bemoaning the hopelessness of a situation, try to find ways to change it. A little proactive creativity can often go a long way. Smile. Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 8:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] a thought for all game makers out there i have thought about game emulater for different kind old video games. since people can get old video games emulater for free on the web and download the thing so that they can play their favoret games on the computer why can't someone convert games like mortal kombat into an audio game some of you people on this list think that all of us can have someone come to our home to help us with video games. but some of us don't have it so easy as others so that why i will always ask for converted game to audio. so that why i can't play any of the sighted people games because i live alone and no one will come to my home and tell me what is on the screen and i don't think we the blind should remember whats on the screen we should be able to go to the game and have a voice to tell us what is on the menus and whats our character is doing and what are surrounding areas is doing aswell. or make some type of sound -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4401 (20090906) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
