Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Thomas. The panning thing is a secondary issue for me. The game is no less playable for me and simply adding a distance to nearest monster key would work fine. If you then fix it later on by using openAL, it would be nice. Though if you leave it as is, no big deal. On 10/7/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: this all depends if you are gona develop more side scrolers. if so then I guess open al will have to do. if not then I'd have no issue with you going back to direct sound then just not making any more side scrolers. scrolers are cool but 3dfps is what I really like along with sim games. At 04:30 p.m. 7/10/2010, you wrote: Hi everyone, Ok, I've basically just spent the better part of today as well as last night looking into a solution for the panning issues for Mysteries of the Ancients, and I'm sorry to say so far I'm not coming up with any viable options or solutions to the problem. As it happpens it is not just OpenAL that doesn't handle stereo panning well, but most of the other audio mixing libraries I have tried don't do it either. At least not the same way it worked in DirectSound. Let me explain the problem further so we are all on the same page. As I mentioned earlier on list OpenAL was mainly designed for games using a 3d audio environment. Therefore sounds are to be renderd using its 3d renderer. This, however, doesn't translate well into a 2d game like MOTA because there is no 2d stereo pan control as such for me to use. Despite a lot of good end user suggestions, e-mailing people, I haven't found any realistic way to make OpenAL pan sounds the way DirectSound does. Everyone I've asked pretty much told me to do it the way I'm already doing it, but the pan effect, as you all know, sounds nothing like the way it did in DirectSound. With that in mind I decided to give SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, another try. As it happens SDL Mixer has a stereo pan control, but it doesn't render sounds the same way as DirectSound does. In DirectSound you can set the position of the sound to the far left or the far right and anywhere inbetween by giving it a value between -1 and 1. With SDL Mixer a sound is either left, right, or center with nothing in between. SDL Mixer allows you to control the volume for each speaker individually, but you can't really position the sound in that speaker. So obviously SDL Mixer really isn't a solution here either. In terms of cross-platform audio libraries that leaves us with FMOD by Firelight Technologies. As some of you might remenber we tried this already in a previous beta, perhaps beta 11 or beta 12, and while FMOD does support panning it doesn't exactly sound like DirectSound either. However, based on my personal experience FMOD is probably the closest we can get to DirectSounds pan control. However, FMOD is a commercial library and costs a fortune to license. A single license for one platform is bad enough, but trying to license it for Windows, Linux, and maybe eventually Mac is completely out of my price range. We are talking thousands of dollars for a single game. So that pretty much makes FMOD beyond a realistic solution here. Some might say that going back to DirectSound is probably the best solution, but that too is problematic. First of all by developing games using DirectSound that would rule out any possability of creating games for Mac and Linux. For some of us, who aren't Windows users, this option is unacceptable. Second, even for Windows users using DirectSound is less than a perfect solution in the long run. As I mentioned before DirectSound hasn't been updated for ages, is now deprecated by Microsoft, and is scheduled for removal from the DirectSound API. It only comes with Windows 7 for backwards compatibility with older games, but who knows how long that backwards compatibility will last. Using DirectSound is probably fine for now, but what about down the road when XAudio2 eventually replaces DirectSound on future Windows operating systems? Actually, as of Windows 7 XAudio2 is now the recommended and prefered audio mixer for game developers. The only problem is it doesn't have a stereo pan option either. Like everything else you have to position sounds through its 3d renderer. There may be a way to create a custom pan option, but the way to do it is mostly hypathetical at this point. I'd hate to spend days and even weeks working on trying to research and create my own stereo pan control for XAudio2 when I'm not even sure it will work, or that I can even get the desired results by spending the time and effort. So bottom line we have a fairly big choice to make. We can either return to DirectSound for the short term, worry about finding a new replacement for DirectSound later, or we can just go ahead and cut our losses and go with OpenAL or something else to begin with. I agree that panning sounds with OpenAL isn't quite the same, but I think it is acceptable considering the fact that there really aren't any clear cut
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Shaun, Which was my entire point. OpenAL is for me, a way forward, because it will help me make 3D FPS games because it already has the ability to render sounds in a full 3d environment and OpenAL Soft supports modern 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards used by hard core gamers. In fact, although Sony has a proprietary SDK for the Play Station III it is largely based on Linux open source APIs such as OpenGL for 3d graphics and OpenAL for 3d audio. OpenGL has long been considered a serious rival for Microsoft's Direct3D technology for Windows, and OpenAL is seriously becoming the open source alternative for DirectSound or XAudio for the Mac and Linux platforms. The fact that Sony has chosen to use the Linux platform for their Play Station III console and have incorperated OpenGL and OpenAL into their development kit speaks for itself what a powerful gaming platform Linux can be when well known gaming companies like Sony properly use Linux as an alternative to more expensive gaming platforms such as Windows. So Linux is a very viable alternative for blind gamers too, and the DirectX-like APIs are already there for Linux. As I see it going back to DirectSound is a step backwards in the wrong direction for multiple reasons. For one thing DirectSound was originally developed and released for Windows 95 when something like the Soundblaster 16 was considered to be the top of the line sound cards of the day. Although, DirectSound was updated to meet new changes such as when the Creative Labs Soundblaster Live came out in 98 it quickly became apparent that DirectSound was hopelessly falling behind the hardware technology it was suppose to support. according to Microsoft's article on DirectSound vs XAudio2 in order to support the 5.1 and 7.1 sound cards of today like the Soundblaster X-Fi they would have had to do a major rewrite of DirectSound to meet the demands of the emerging hardware technology. Instead of rewriting DirectSound the decided to create a new library, XAudio2, that met all the demands of the emerging hardware and would provide game developers the means to take advantage of the new audio hardware out there for the PC and XBox 360. I certainly can't fault them for their decision as it makes perfect sense to me. Even the cheapo sound card that came with my desktop computer is 5.1 compatible. Bottom line, if we went back to DirectSound just to create side-scrollers we are ignoring the new emerging software and hardware trends of tomorrow. Side-Scrollers, as some might say, are so twentieth century. The demand for games with killer 3d graphics and stunning 3d audio are all the rave today. That's driving the computer hardware and software ever upwards and by clinging to simple 2d games we are going to get left in the dust weather we like it or not. I'm one of the game developers willing to meet those changes head on and design a game engine that makes full use of a 3d audio environment in my future titles. If people don't have the kind of hardware it takes that's not my problem. It is time we roll with the change so to speak. I understand some might view this as very negative etc, but the fact remains the same. We have limited ourselves to 2d shoot-m-ups like Troopenum, Aliens in the Outback, and Dark Destroyer for far too long. We are only just beginning to look into side-scrollers like Q9, Super Liam, and MOTA. However, compared to the mainstream 2d games of that sort have long passed from the mainstream view, or so it seams. We are in a word behind the times. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Tom. Personally I'm willing just to stick with what we have and move ahead. Afterall, isn't the eventual goal to catch up to mainstream gaming? If we use old hardware that is no longer officially recognize, seems that can't happen, and of course, there are the cross-platform issues as well. But I was wondering if you could have a quick view comand to let you know how far something was? The v key is helpful, but a command like what Shades of Dom or say treasure Hunt has where you can hit a key and gage the distance in a certain direction between yu and an object would be helpful in resolving the problem. Just my two-sense. I like the v key except for the fact that it has to list everythingg that's currently visible. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 7:30 PM Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues Hi everyone, Ok, I've basically just spent the better part of today as well as last night looking into a solution for the panning issues for Mysteries of the Ancients, and I'm sorry to say so far I'm not coming up with any viable options or solutions to the problem. As it happpens it is not just OpenAL that doesn't handle stereo panning well, but most of the other audio mixing libraries I have tried don't do it either. At least not the same way it worked in DirectSound. Let me explain the problem further so we are all on the same page. As I mentioned earlier on list OpenAL was mainly designed for games using a 3d audio environment. Therefore sounds are to be renderd using its 3d renderer. This, however, doesn't translate well into a 2d game like MOTA because there is no 2d stereo pan control as such for me to use. Despite a lot of good end user suggestions, e-mailing people, I haven't found any realistic way to make OpenAL pan sounds the way DirectSound does. Everyone I've asked pretty much told me to do it the way I'm already doing it, but the pan effect, as you all know, sounds nothing like the way it did in DirectSound. With that in mind I decided to give SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, another try. As it happens SDL Mixer has a stereo pan control, but it doesn't render sounds the same way as DirectSound does. In DirectSound you can set the position of the sound to the far left or the far right and anywhere inbetween by giving it a value between -1 and 1. With SDL Mixer a sound is either left, right, or center with nothing in between. SDL Mixer allows you to control the volume for each speaker individually, but you can't really position the sound in that speaker. So obviously SDL Mixer really isn't a solution here either. In terms of cross-platform audio libraries that leaves us with FMOD by Firelight Technologies. As some of you might remenber we tried this already in a previous beta, perhaps beta 11 or beta 12, and while FMOD does support panning it doesn't exactly sound like DirectSound either. However, based on my personal experience FMOD is probably the closest we can get to DirectSounds pan control. However, FMOD is a commercial library and costs a fortune to license. A single license for one platform is bad enough, but trying to license it for Windows, Linux, and maybe eventually Mac is completely out of my price range. We are talking thousands of dollars for a single game. So that pretty much makes FMOD beyond a realistic solution here. Some might say that going back to DirectSound is probably the best solution, but that too is problematic. First of all by developing games using DirectSound that would rule out any possability of creating games for Mac and Linux. For some of us, who aren't Windows users, this option is unacceptable. Second, even for Windows users using DirectSound is less than a perfect solution in the long run. As I mentioned before DirectSound hasn't been updated for ages, is now deprecated by Microsoft, and is scheduled for removal from the DirectSound API. It only comes with Windows 7 for backwards compatibility with older games, but who knows how long that backwards compatibility will last. Using DirectSound is probably fine for now, but what about down the road when XAudio2 eventually replaces DirectSound on future Windows operating systems? Actually, as of Windows 7 XAudio2 is now the recommended and prefered audio mixer for game developers. The only problem is it doesn't have a stereo pan option either. Like everything else you have to position sounds through its 3d renderer. There may be a way to create a custom pan option, but the way to do it is mostly hypathetical at this point. I'd hate to spend days and even weeks working on trying to research and create my own stereo pan control for XAudio2 when I'm not even sure it will work, or that I can even get the desired results by spending the time and effort. So bottom line we have a fairly big choice to make. We can either return to DirectSound for the short term, worry about
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Let's move forward and stick with what we have. I'm sure you want to get this finished and I personally want the full game so I can play all the levels smiles. I'm not having too much trouble right now with this version. There's no point delaying it even further over this issue. Mike -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:30 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues Hi everyone, Ok, I've basically just spent the better part of today as well as last night looking into a solution for the panning issues for Mysteries of the Ancients, and I'm sorry to say so far I'm not coming up with any viable options or solutions to the problem. As it happpens it is not just OpenAL that doesn't handle stereo panning well, but most of the other audio mixing libraries I have tried don't do it either. At least not the same way it worked in DirectSound. Let me explain the problem further so we are all on the same page. As I mentioned earlier on list OpenAL was mainly designed for games using a 3d audio environment. Therefore sounds are to be renderd using its 3d renderer. This, however, doesn't translate well into a 2d game like MOTA because there is no 2d stereo pan control as such for me to use. Despite a lot of good end user suggestions, e-mailing people, I haven't found any realistic way to make OpenAL pan sounds the way DirectSound does. Everyone I've asked pretty much told me to do it the way I'm already doing it, but the pan effect, as you all know, sounds nothing like the way it did in DirectSound. With that in mind I decided to give SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, another try. As it happens SDL Mixer has a stereo pan control, but it doesn't render sounds the same way as DirectSound does. In DirectSound you can set the position of the sound to the far left or the far right and anywhere inbetween by giving it a value between -1 and 1. With SDL Mixer a sound is either left, right, or center with nothing in between. SDL Mixer allows you to control the volume for each speaker individually, but you can't really position the sound in that speaker. So obviously SDL Mixer really isn't a solution here either. In terms of cross-platform audio libraries that leaves us with FMOD by Firelight Technologies. As some of you might remenber we tried this already in a previous beta, perhaps beta 11 or beta 12, and while FMOD does support panning it doesn't exactly sound like DirectSound either. However, based on my personal experience FMOD is probably the closest we can get to DirectSounds pan control. However, FMOD is a commercial library and costs a fortune to license. A single license for one platform is bad enough, but trying to license it for Windows, Linux, and maybe eventually Mac is completely out of my price range. We are talking thousands of dollars for a single game. So that pretty much makes FMOD beyond a realistic solution here. Some might say that going back to DirectSound is probably the best solution, but that too is problematic. First of all by developing games using DirectSound that would rule out any possability of creating games for Mac and Linux. For some of us, who aren't Windows users, this option is unacceptable. Second, even for Windows users using DirectSound is less than a perfect solution in the long run. As I mentioned before DirectSound hasn't been updated for ages, is now deprecated by Microsoft, and is scheduled for removal from the DirectSound API. It only comes with Windows 7 for backwards compatibility with older games, but who knows how long that backwards compatibility will last. Using DirectSound is probably fine for now, but what about down the road when XAudio2 eventually replaces DirectSound on future Windows operating systems? Actually, as of Windows 7 XAudio2 is now the recommended and prefered audio mixer for game developers. The only problem is it doesn't have a stereo pan option either. Like everything else you have to position sounds through its 3d renderer. There may be a way to create a custom pan option, but the way to do it is mostly hypathetical at this point. I'd hate to spend days and even weeks working on trying to research and create my own stereo pan control for XAudio2 when I'm not even sure it will work, or that I can even get the desired results by spending the time and effort. So bottom line we have a fairly big choice to make. We can either return to DirectSound for the short term, worry about finding a new replacement for DirectSound later, or we can just go ahead and cut our losses and go with OpenAL or something else to begin with. I agree that panning sounds with OpenAL isn't quite the same, but I think it is acceptable considering the fact that there really aren't any clear cut alternatives. Plus since I'm mainly thinking about creating 3d first-person games anyway, rather than lots of side-scrollers, the problem we are talking about mainly applies to this single game. Other
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Mike, That's exactly my opinion as well. As my step mother always says, its time to roll with the change. Besides there are plenty of things I can be working on updating, fixing, and this panning situation is just one of several. It just happens it seams like this single issue has gotten more attention than all the other bugs combind. I'd like to fix the ones I can, and just get on with adding the rest of the levels. Smile. On 10/6/10, Mike Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: Let's move forward and stick with what we have. I'm sure you want to get this finished and I personally want the full game so I can play all the levels smiles. I'm not having too much trouble right now with this version. There's no point delaying it even further over this issue. Mike --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi, I think that is a very reasonable solution to the problem. Having a key like m to speak the nearest monster or o to announce the nearest object would be very easy to add and very reasonable. Consider it done. Smile. On 10/6/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom. Personally I'm willing just to stick with what we have and move ahead. Afterall, isn't the eventual goal to catch up to mainstream gaming? If we use old hardware that is no longer officially recognize, seems that can't happen, and of course, there are the cross-platform issues as well. But I was wondering if you could have a quick view comand to let you know how far something was? The v key is helpful, but a command like what Shades of Dom or say treasure Hunt has where you can hit a key and gage the distance in a certain direction between yu and an object would be helpful in resolving the problem. Just my two-sense. I like the v key except for the fact that it has to list everythingg that's currently visible. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
and could you also increase the number of amo in you're weapons? There are times where I am using up a lot of them do to the fact that I have to shoot the monsters and it is very difficult to get amo on the level I am on. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues Hi, I think that is a very reasonable solution to the problem. Having a key like m to speak the nearest monster or o to announce the nearest object would be very easy to add and very reasonable. Consider it done. Smile. On 10/6/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom. Personally I'm willing just to stick with what we have and move ahead. Afterall, isn't the eventual goal to catch up to mainstream gaming? If we use old hardware that is no longer officially recognize, seems that can't happen, and of course, there are the cross-platform issues as well. But I was wondering if you could have a quick view comand to let you know how far something was? The v key is helpful, but a command like what Shades of Dom or say treasure Hunt has where you can hit a key and gage the distance in a certain direction between yu and an object would be helpful in resolving the problem. Just my two-sense. I like the v key except for the fact that it has to list everythingg that's currently visible. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Glad I was able to have some input. But I'm wondering... would it be possible to have the keeys gage at different distances instead of hitting o and say waiting for it to list every object in the vascinaty of the camera, so to speak... since there is no camera in this game. Like, say if you had a door to your left in 5 meters, a statue in front of you, and a door off to the right, I don't know, say another five meters, with a lever three meters to your right between you and the door. Could you have key combinations like hold it down with a modifier to have it describe the object from a certain distance away or in a certain direction? I just find having to wait for it to fnish listing things kind of interrupts the pace for me. This isn't something I'm going to go on and on about. lol. Justa suggestion. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues Hi, I think that is a very reasonable solution to the problem. Having a key like m to speak the nearest monster or o to announce the nearest object would be very easy to add and very reasonable. Consider it done. Smile. On 10/6/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Tom. Personally I'm willing just to stick with what we have and move ahead. Afterall, isn't the eventual goal to catch up to mainstream gaming? If we use old hardware that is no longer officially recognize, seems that can't happen, and of course, there are the cross-platform issues as well. But I was wondering if you could have a quick view comand to let you know how far something was? The v key is helpful, but a command like what Shades of Dom or say treasure Hunt has where you can hit a key and gage the distance in a certain direction between yu and an object would be helpful in resolving the problem. Just my two-sense. I like the v key except for the fact that it has to list everythingg that's currently visible. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi, I suppose that would be possible. I'd have to give it some thought. my plate is already pretty full for beta 15 and that would definitely require quite a bit of extra work. However, I'll drop it in the suggestions list to get too when and if I can get to it. Smile. On 10/7/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote: Glad I was able to have some input. But I'm wondering... would it be possible to have the keeys gage at different distances instead of hitting o and say waiting for it to list every object in the vascinaty of the camera, so to speak... since there is no camera in this game. Like, say if you had a door to your left in 5 meters, a statue in front of you, and a door off to the right, I don't know, say another five meters, with a lever three meters to your right between you and the door. Could you have key combinations like hold it down with a modifier to have it describe the object from a certain distance away or in a certain direction? I just find having to wait for it to fnish listing things kind of interrupts the pace for me. This isn't something I'm going to go on and on about. lol. Justa suggestion. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Well, the sugestion box is a good place for this one. I knew it would be more work. But I hope it can be done... because I like Mota when the pace is moving smothly at a fast pace. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Sky, Not really if we want to keep the game remotely realistic. For example, a Glock 19, which Angela's pistol was based off of, has a 15 round clip. That's why it only starts with 15 rounds in her gun when you start the game. Other weapons like the Uzi are realistic as well. Depending on the particular model some Uzis cary 20, 30, or 40 rounds. In this case I decided to pick a military grade model which caries 40 rounds. It so happens I am using the same exact model of Uzi that Lara Croft uses in the early Tomb Raider games. So I don't really know of a realistic way to give you more rounds. I could give you multiple ammo packs which would give you more ammo, but then again that might make it too easy. Part of the way the game is has a lot to do with my own enjoyment of challenging games. I don't like games that are too easy or you can beat in 20 minutes and it is over justlike that. I like building in some extra challenges. Cheers! On 10/7/10, Sky Taylor s...@shaw.ca wrote: and could you also increase the number of amo in you're weapons? There are times where I am using up a lot of them do to the fact that I have to shoot the monsters and it is very difficult to get amo on the level I am on. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
this all depends if you are gona develop more side scrolers. if so then I guess open al will have to do. if not then I'd have no issue with you going back to direct sound then just not making any more side scrolers. scrolers are cool but 3dfps is what I really like along with sim games. At 04:30 p.m. 7/10/2010, you wrote: Hi everyone, Ok, I've basically just spent the better part of today as well as last night looking into a solution for the panning issues for Mysteries of the Ancients, and I'm sorry to say so far I'm not coming up with any viable options or solutions to the problem. As it happpens it is not just OpenAL that doesn't handle stereo panning well, but most of the other audio mixing libraries I have tried don't do it either. At least not the same way it worked in DirectSound. Let me explain the problem further so we are all on the same page. As I mentioned earlier on list OpenAL was mainly designed for games using a 3d audio environment. Therefore sounds are to be renderd using its 3d renderer. This, however, doesn't translate well into a 2d game like MOTA because there is no 2d stereo pan control as such for me to use. Despite a lot of good end user suggestions, e-mailing people, I haven't found any realistic way to make OpenAL pan sounds the way DirectSound does. Everyone I've asked pretty much told me to do it the way I'm already doing it, but the pan effect, as you all know, sounds nothing like the way it did in DirectSound. With that in mind I decided to give SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, another try. As it happens SDL Mixer has a stereo pan control, but it doesn't render sounds the same way as DirectSound does. In DirectSound you can set the position of the sound to the far left or the far right and anywhere inbetween by giving it a value between -1 and 1. With SDL Mixer a sound is either left, right, or center with nothing in between. SDL Mixer allows you to control the volume for each speaker individually, but you can't really position the sound in that speaker. So obviously SDL Mixer really isn't a solution here either. In terms of cross-platform audio libraries that leaves us with FMOD by Firelight Technologies. As some of you might remenber we tried this already in a previous beta, perhaps beta 11 or beta 12, and while FMOD does support panning it doesn't exactly sound like DirectSound either. However, based on my personal experience FMOD is probably the closest we can get to DirectSounds pan control. However, FMOD is a commercial library and costs a fortune to license. A single license for one platform is bad enough, but trying to license it for Windows, Linux, and maybe eventually Mac is completely out of my price range. We are talking thousands of dollars for a single game. So that pretty much makes FMOD beyond a realistic solution here. Some might say that going back to DirectSound is probably the best solution, but that too is problematic. First of all by developing games using DirectSound that would rule out any possability of creating games for Mac and Linux. For some of us, who aren't Windows users, this option is unacceptable. Second, even for Windows users using DirectSound is less than a perfect solution in the long run. As I mentioned before DirectSound hasn't been updated for ages, is now deprecated by Microsoft, and is scheduled for removal from the DirectSound API. It only comes with Windows 7 for backwards compatibility with older games, but who knows how long that backwards compatibility will last. Using DirectSound is probably fine for now, but what about down the road when XAudio2 eventually replaces DirectSound on future Windows operating systems? Actually, as of Windows 7 XAudio2 is now the recommended and prefered audio mixer for game developers. The only problem is it doesn't have a stereo pan option either. Like everything else you have to position sounds through its 3d renderer. There may be a way to create a custom pan option, but the way to do it is mostly hypathetical at this point. I'd hate to spend days and even weeks working on trying to research and create my own stereo pan control for XAudio2 when I'm not even sure it will work, or that I can even get the desired results by spending the time and effort. So bottom line we have a fairly big choice to make. We can either return to DirectSound for the short term, worry about finding a new replacement for DirectSound later, or we can just go ahead and cut our losses and go with OpenAL or something else to begin with. I agree that panning sounds with OpenAL isn't quite the same, but I think it is acceptable considering the fact that there really aren't any clear cut alternatives. Plus since I'm mainly thinking about creating 3d first-person games anyway, rather than lots of side-scrollers, the problem we are talking about mainly applies to this single game. Other games like Raceway and STFC won't have this issue. So I'm personally in favor of just accepting OpenAL, such as it is, and
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
Hi Shaun, I believe that you're a bit confused here. OpenAL will make 3D FPS-style games easier to write. DirectSound might make side scrollers easier to write, but it also is being phased out by Microsoft, so in the long term using it is mpractical. I just wanted to clear that up, in case there was confusion. My opinions on this are already posted. OpenAL is a way forward. Best, Zack. shaun everiss writes: this all depends if you are gona develop more side scrolers. if so then I guess open al will have to do. if not then I'd have no issue with you going back to direct sound then just not making any more side scrolers. scrolers are cool but 3dfps is what I really like along with sim games. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues
I haven't had much to do with it at all, but would in any case agree that you would do better to stick to the OpenAL one, or, a rather unviable alternative might be to literally make use of multiple versions of stereo sound clips with their own sound panning included, but this would also not be too viable for moving objects/characters, download file sizes etc. Another option that might just sort of spoil game play would be to just add other small trigger sound effect clips sort of like proximity sensor sounds or something, as in when a certain character/enemy/object got closer, while the full left/right panning stayed the same, you might hear an extra type of sound indicating a certain amount of proximity or something, but this would also most likely add a whole bunch of additional time/effort to the whole process. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 5:30 AM Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Panning Issues Hi everyone, Ok, I've basically just spent the better part of today as well as last night looking into a solution for the panning issues for Mysteries of the Ancients, and I'm sorry to say so far I'm not coming up with any viable options or solutions to the problem. As it happpens it is not just OpenAL that doesn't handle stereo panning well, but most of the other audio mixing libraries I have tried don't do it either. At least not the same way it worked in DirectSound. Let me explain the problem further so we are all on the same page. As I mentioned earlier on list OpenAL was mainly designed for games using a 3d audio environment. Therefore sounds are to be renderd using its 3d renderer. This, however, doesn't translate well into a 2d game like MOTA because there is no 2d stereo pan control as such for me to use. Despite a lot of good end user suggestions, e-mailing people, I haven't found any realistic way to make OpenAL pan sounds the way DirectSound does. Everyone I've asked pretty much told me to do it the way I'm already doing it, but the pan effect, as you all know, sounds nothing like the way it did in DirectSound. With that in mind I decided to give SDL, the Simple Direct Media Layer, another try. As it happens SDL Mixer has a stereo pan control, but it doesn't render sounds the same way as DirectSound does. In DirectSound you can set the position of the sound to the far left or the far right and anywhere inbetween by giving it a value between -1 and 1. With SDL Mixer a sound is either left, right, or center with nothing in between. SDL Mixer allows you to control the volume for each speaker individually, but you can't really position the sound in that speaker. So obviously SDL Mixer really isn't a solution here either. In terms of cross-platform audio libraries that leaves us with FMOD by Firelight Technologies. As some of you might remenber we tried this already in a previous beta, perhaps beta 11 or beta 12, and while FMOD does support panning it doesn't exactly sound like DirectSound either. However, based on my personal experience FMOD is probably the closest we can get to DirectSounds pan control. However, FMOD is a commercial library and costs a fortune to license. A single license for one platform is bad enough, but trying to license it for Windows, Linux, and maybe eventually Mac is completely out of my price range. We are talking thousands of dollars for a single game. So that pretty much makes FMOD beyond a realistic solution here. Some might say that going back to DirectSound is probably the best solution, but that too is problematic. First of all by developing games using DirectSound that would rule out any possability of creating games for Mac and Linux. For some of us, who aren't Windows users, this option is unacceptable. Second, even for Windows users using DirectSound is less than a perfect solution in the long run. As I mentioned before DirectSound hasn't been updated for ages, is now deprecated by Microsoft, and is scheduled for removal from the DirectSound API. It only comes with Windows 7 for backwards compatibility with older games, but who knows how long that backwards compatibility will last. Using DirectSound is probably fine for now, but what about down the road when XAudio2 eventually replaces DirectSound on future Windows operating systems? Actually, as of Windows 7 XAudio2 is now the recommended and prefered audio mixer for game developers. The only problem is it doesn't have a stereo pan option either. Like everything else you have to position sounds through its 3d renderer. There may be a way to create a custom pan option, but the way to do it is mostly hypathetical at this point. I'd hate to spend days and even weeks working on trying to research and create my own stereo pan control for XAudio2 when I'm not even sure it will
