Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know so that replacements can be arranged. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
But if someone sees mentorship as some kind of status, and you politely ask them to quit as a mentor through complete inactivity, the polite approach might not yield results given their attachment to the apparent status. In the end, in such scenarios, it'll take an impartial rule to resolve that sort of situation. Upayavira On Wed, Dec 24, 2014, at 03:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know so that replacements can be arranged. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Two thoughts ... -- replying to -- From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 00:33 To: Incubator General Subject: Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know so that replacements can be arranged. orcmid One valuable contribution of a mentor is demonstration of accountability. By that I mean providing an account (what accountants do), not the common notion of something to do with obligation and duty. Mentors in their interactions with PPMCs can provide certainty with regard to their own presence by being visible and indicating when they are unavailable. Mentors should not be mysterious. With regard to this general concern about status-seeking, perhaps it would be useful to have mentor apprentices who themselves are being coached (off-list) and who are discouraged from serving on multiple PPMCs until they have demonstrated consistency. One could go so far as have PPMCs rate their mentors (since measures need to come from somewhere). I offer this only as identifying an area to think about. Being willing and consistent at demonstrating involvement and being available needs some form of encouragement and also accountability. /orcmid -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know so that replacements can be arranged. Hmm... sure. Btw... Chris Mattmann's automated tick detector would easily detect the situation I was referring to. Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months?
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 12/24/14, 2:43 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: But if someone sees mentorship as some kind of status, and you politely ask them to quit as a mentor through complete inactivity, the polite approach might not yield results given their attachment to the apparent status. In the end, in such scenarios, it'll take an impartial rule to resolve that sort of situation. IMO, mentors can “go bad” not just for inactivity. If you try to put in a minimum activity rule, some mentor can just +1 everything or hastily reply without fully understanding issues and waste people’s time. At the formation of a podling, the new PPMC members simply should be given instructions on when and how to “tolerate” a bad mentor, and when and how to seek action from the IPMC. Flex started off with 4 mentors but one became inactive. With 3 good mentors, the 4th being inactive had no effect and could essentially be ignored. Should that have been reported somewhere? Certainly it should be in the quarterly reports if it is causing a problem (after polite requests to engage the mentors fail). It could be added to the graduation proposal. We simply did not credit the inactive mentor on the team page on the website. -Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 12/24/14, 9:23 AM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months? I would do it if I was on the PPMC of a podling and lack of sign-offs was affecting progress. There will often be obstacles to progress in a podling and project’s life and making sure the podling has people passionate enough to deal with uncomfortable situations is probably a good thing. In fact, late in the Flex podling’s life, we did have trouble getting enough a third IPMC vote because our mentors got a bit busy with other stuff. We had 3 good mentors (out of 4) that had voted on prior incubating releases which made it easier to get the IPMC approval vote. But this time we couldn’t get a third vote so we pestered the mentors who hadn’t voted. One never responded and the other eventually responded that they were just too busy and we would need to get that 3rd vote from the larger IPMC which we did. As long as there is a clear process for a PPMC to get unstuck, you probably don’t need to worry about rules about activity levels and oversight from the IPMC. -Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) I thought that Apache Way had no assholes allowed policy, which should cover that ;-) Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping Maybe we need to add no politics allowed to our collection of slogans ;-) If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know so that replacements can be arranged. Hmm... sure. Btw... Chris Mattmann's automated tick detector would easily detect the situation I was referring to. Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months? I am planning to start doing that as part of IPMC reporting process. See the other thread. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 12/22/14, 10:35 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which detailed the Apache Way? These would be where? It occurred to me that if it takes presos, webinars and slides, maybe it needs repackaging into mottos, slogans and elevator speeches. My son just joined Cub Scouts and I’ve found it interesting in that they are also trying to teach a new way of thinking but have it boiled down into something that 7-year-olds can absorb. Apache has “community over code”, but needs better messaging of what it means. Still, mottos, slogans and elevator speeches are promotional in nature. Instead of trying to tell folks not to copy past proposals and make them guess what their answers should be, it might be better to have proposers make sure they have enough folks who will sign some other commitment letter that contains the “fine print” of what is expected of them as a PMC member or project in order to become a TLP. IOW, if the “how” is non-negotiable, tell folks up front. Here’s some of what I think might go on such a document: -Apache requires a relatively low set of requirements for folks to become committers. -Apache requires that you track the ownership and licensing of every line of source code. There are customers, especially large corporations, who will not use your product without assurances that they know the licensing involved. If you don’t think any of your customers will be like this, you may not want to become an Apache project and take on the overhead of tracking this. Feel free to use the Apache License for your code anyway. -Apache requires that you create releases entirely of source code. If your customers will not want to use your product by building it up from source code, you can distribute pre-compiled versions but they are not releases. -Apache requires that you maintain a couple of legal documents as part of your releases. Each project should have at least one member interested in legal matters and folks on the mailing list willing to put up with legal-oriented discussions. -By becoming a PMC member, you are becoming an agent of a corporation with certain responsibilities and duties to the corporation. Your vote to approve a release is as an agent of the corporation approving the legal correctness of the source code, not just whether you think the code is bug-free enough to ship. -Apache requires that your project organizes itself without hierarchy. There are committers and non-committers, but all committers have equal access to all of the source code. If you don’t know the committer candidate well enough to trust them not to mess with stuff they shouldn’t, don’t accept them as a committer or make sure you have the time to work with them after. -Apache requires that no individual or corporation has undue influence over the development or decision-making of a project. -Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
tl;dr; agree with a problem statement, don't think that proposal wording has much to do with solving the problem, would love to see mentors do more. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. A very strong +1 to that. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. Fine-tuning proposal guide would be helpful (patches are always welcome). That said, I *really* don't think it would have any impact on the problem stated above. The real answer lies in mentors/champions who are diligent about guiding poddlings towards true understanding of the Apache Way. There's a separate thread on how to make mentors more accountable. IOW, if we want a change in poddling behavior, I'd rather focus on incubation/graduation process rather than entrance criteria. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:37 AM, Sean Owen sro...@apache.org wrote: I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of excessive fascination with the brand. I see no problem with that per se. IOW, a poddling that enters incubation with only vague ideas of what to expect is completely and totally ok, as long as mentors are doing their job. But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides becoming Apache Foo is the motivation? I really don't think it would serve any purpose. Just IMO. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 23 Dec 2014, at 13:53, Roman Shaposhnik r...@apache.org wrote: tl;dr; agree with a problem statement, don't think that proposal wording has much to do with solving the problem, would love to see mentors do more. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. A very strong +1 to that. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. Fine-tuning proposal guide would be helpful (patches are always welcome). That said, I *really* don't think it would have any impact on the problem stated above. The real answer lies in mentors/champions who are diligent about guiding poddlings towards true understanding of the Apache Way. There's a separate thread on how to make mentors more accountable. IOW, if we want a change in poddling behavior, I'd rather focus on incubation/graduation process rather than entrance criteria. Thanks, Roman. Roman, et al., I tend to agree with your assessment tho am unsure what is meant by “accountable”; sounds scary-- Thus: I have found mentors in projects and advocate, again, a (mild) cooperative system of obligation upon commit status. But I also want to do something I’ve wanted to do for some time and focus on disarticulating the *way* of open source production from the *thing* being made, i.e., the code. This is not that radical a notion, at least not in other fields. Modes of cooperative collaboration have been taught many places. Formally, it can exist, I bet, away from the object being made. And it may—may, alas—may make it easier to get mentors, once it is seen that being a mentor is not a pit of lost time. louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Dec 23, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: On 12/22/14, 10:35 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which detailed the Apache Way? These would be where? It occurred to me that if it takes presos, webinars and slides, maybe it needs repackaging into mottos, slogans and elevator speeches. My son just joined Cub Scouts and I’ve found it interesting in that they are also trying to teach a new way of thinking but have it boiled down into something that 7-year-olds can absorb. In http://www.slideshare.net/jimjag/code-community-and-open-source , for example, slide 23 kind of describes it. Also, just do: http://www.slideshare.net/search/slideshow?searchfrom=headerq=apache+way - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. This wasn't well-received 4.5 years ago[1] :/ I still think it's a more valuable question than the brand one - which is likely what brought them here in the first place. Good luck... --tim [1] - http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201005.mbox/%3caanlktikxhpvpaqheqna02ptmix8lqwwjqznbay9lc...@mail.gmail.com%3E - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Tim Williams william...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. This wasn't well-received 4.5 years ago[1] :/ I still think it's a more valuable question than the brand one - which is likely what brought them here in the first place. Good luck... One comment from that older thread is that this is more of a mentor/champion question than a podling question because the incoming project is not so likely to even know enough to answer the Apache Way question intelligently. With a recent project proposal, I spent a week editing a shared document containing the proposal with the project leaders. The goal was to help them understand where incubation was going to take them and what was really important about the proposal. I think that the time was well spent, but one of the three mentors was total AWOL during this process. Being absent during crucial discussions like that really says I-don't-care more than almost anything else I can think of. With just a little bit of that, the new project is likely to assume that they don't care about what Apache says either. Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping. So we wind up with mentors in name only who like to get their names on projects but never both even to read the project reports much less actually do any mentoring.
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 23/12/14 22:25, Ted Dunning wrote: I think that the time was well spent, but one of the three mentors was total AWOL during this process. Being absent during crucial discussions If a mentor can't show up at the beginning of the project, when things are being discussed, why is s/he a mentor in the first place? I can sympathize with the mentor that starts out, genuinely useful to a podling, but after several months, suffers side-effects from life, and consequently has to limit their interaction with the podling. it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse themselves for lack of helping. Unless I've completely misunderstood The Apache Way, a mentor that doesn't help, and does not recuse themselves, is a mentor that is demonstrating their despoilment of The Apache Way. As such, they should be thrown off the list of mentors, regardless of the political consequences. jonathon * English - detected * English * English javascript:void(0); signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of excessive fascination with the brand. I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be another discussion. But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides becoming Apache Foo is the motivation? On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Sean Owen sro...@apache.org wrote: I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of excessive fascination with the brand. being one that just championed a project, I can say that this question was the least understandable, I only understood the difference after a discussion. Maybe we could word it better. Something along the lines what does brand apache mean to the project, compared to the apache way. I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be another discussion. But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides becoming Apache Foo is the motivation? i think the question is a good idea. copy/paste is hard to avoid on some of the questions. rgds jan i On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com javascript:; wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; -- Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
I have always thought that there would be value in reviewing the topics in our project proposals. Ideally, we would review them to make sure all questions are open ended, rather than having a clear expected answer: Could we replace Inexperience with Open Source (which begs the answer, No, we have experience, with Please detail your level of experience with Open Source development Could we replace Homogenous Developers with please detail the roles the proposed committers have within which organisations Then replace reliance upon salaried developers with Please detail the spread of volunteer vs paid contributor amongst the proposed committers. etc, etc. Sure, people will work out what the expected answers are, but I always felt that there was something definitely wrong with the topic headings as we ask them. Upayavira On Mon, Dec 22, 2014, at 08:59 AM, jan i wrote: On Monday, December 22, 2014, Sean Owen sro...@apache.org wrote: I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of excessive fascination with the brand. being one that just championed a project, I can say that this question was the least understandable, I only understood the difference after a discussion. Maybe we could word it better. Something along the lines what does brand apache mean to the project, compared to the apache way. I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be another discussion. But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides becoming Apache Foo is the motivation? i think the question is a good idea. copy/paste is hard to avoid on some of the questions. rgds jan i On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com javascript:; wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org javascript:; -- Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Hello I am a very new participant in Apache and a member of the ppmc for apache nifi (incubating). So I thought it would be good to share that perspective for this discussion... In writing the NiFi proposal this section was honestly a bit awkward. The other sections are largely about providing information so the community could better understand the project and they were intuitive in purpose. But this 'fascination with the brand section' seemed more like a comment to the new project. It was clear there was past history that prompted the need for such a section but there was little to draw on to truly appreciate the intent and thus to write anything that felt truly genuine. Perhaps this section would be better off written as a question: Does the proposed podling intend to learn and follow the Apache Way and to participate through appropriate discourse? It is also reasonable to include with the question examples or patterns of behavior which are problematic as well as examples or patterns which best reflect the ideals. Thanks Joe On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Sean Owen sro...@apache.org wrote: I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of excessive fascination with the brand. I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be another discussion. But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides becoming Apache Foo is the motivation? On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow, that new projects want to enter the ASF because they approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we have graduated projects which are more interested in simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache brand so valuable and noteworthy. Maybe we need to change the proposal guide. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. What is The Apache Way, anyway? There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore, transgressions are inevitable. Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following The Apache Way. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Agree with Upayavira. And, I think the mentors need to be more diverse. Sometimes I can predict the result of vote. On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. What is The Apache Way, anyway? There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore, transgressions are inevitable. Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following The Apache Way. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Best Regards, Edward J. Yoon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which detailed the Apache Way? On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. What is The Apache Way, anyway? There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore, transgressions are inevitable. Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following The Apache Way. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which detailed the Apache Way? These would be where? And, if we don’t already have a “place” for them (including just a gallery of URLs or a Slideshare or equiv. as from a wiki), then let’s? We did this with OpenOffice.org, and I’m sure others do it all the time with their own projects. It was part of our Marketing project; localized entries were maintained by the relevant localization group. The only problem—not entirely trivial—relates to vetting, currency, accuracy. But I think this could also be dealt with. louis PS regarding the Apache Way…. the document that I’ve referred people to that cleanly expresses it and also the feeling for it is Shane’s. On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What we *REALLY* want are projects that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the Apache Brand. What is The Apache Way, anyway? There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore, transgressions are inevitable. Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following The Apache Way. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org