Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 20/10/02 0:40, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
>> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
>> 
>>   Pier
> 
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

Greg is going to kill me! :-) Sourceforge works more than fine for now...
But sure it's damn fast! :-)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  

Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to Apache 
but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO. 
It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 

I see little point in having 30 persistence APIs or 30 connection pools,
etc...apparently some people do...  But 5 web app frameworks even if
they are all "pull" seems reasonable...  There are certainly MORE than 5
ways to roll a webapp  (even if I haven't found one I actually like
yet...)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 20:31, John McNally wrote:
> I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
> different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
> probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
> written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
> comparison with the failed spfc project though.
> 
> 
>
> 
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?
> 
> john mcnally
> 
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> > > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> > > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > > projects to the contrary)
> > 
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > 
> > --
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:31, John McNally wrote:
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?

Component + Event driven web dev has got a lot more press recently. MS uses 
it. Sun is trying to develope a standard for it (see Java Faces which I 
believe Craig chairs) and there is quite a few other toolkits out there that 
do it and some even go the full way (swinglets or whatever it is called).

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 

I will support you completely especially if it is SEDA based.  I'm very
interested in SEDA.  Plus I have faith in your ability to build a
community and if you're open to some non-java components/ports I might
even contribute work.

+1 for competition for tomcat.  One of my favorite software development
organizations is Microsoft.  Because rather than squash internal
competition, they use it to their advantage.  (They are also my least
favorite but that is a longer story)

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> 
> --
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:40, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >
> >   Pier
>
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
>
> =)

Well it is faster ... 

;)

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 indistinguishable from magic" 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
comparison with the failed spfc project though.



It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
Tapestry?

john mcnally

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > projects to the contrary)
> 
> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
> --
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Martin Cooper]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:jon@;latchkey.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container 
> that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> > 
> >   Pier
> 
> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

If you use a Turbine to provide enough Torque, you might be able to Slide it
in at Jetspeed, too. ;-)

--
Martin Cooper


> 
> =)
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- 
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> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> 
>   Pier

Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

=)

-jon

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314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> projects to the contrary)

I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

John McNally wrote:


If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.


With that clarification, I agree.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/19 11:49 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
> software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
> misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> projects to the contrary)
> 
> -Andy

Open your eyes and read john's posting again. That isn't what he was saying
at all.

-jon

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 11:29 AM 10/19/2002 -0700, John McNally wrote:

If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.


You know, Tapestry in fact is different from your average JSP taglib. 
Anyone who had a chance to use component-based web frameworks (like 
WebObjects, I don't know any other in this category) would know what I am 
talking about. This is a  *different* and highly powerful and convenient 
way of doing things.

Surprisingly enough with so many webapplication layers out there, Tapestry 
seems to be the only one (OpenSource, that is) that allows you to create a 
set of reusable components and build the design around this. The level of 
reuse is unmatched with anything "JSP". In many ways it is even stronger 
then commercial implementation of the same design idea (WebObjects). In 
particular it makes it extremely easy for graphics designers to modify 
HTML, since dynamic content does not use *any* custom tags. Also the amount 
of code (and time) it takes to hook up an average model layer to the HTML 
presentation is so small that at first you may think you've missed 
something along the way :-).


I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
technology that is able to become a defacto standard.


The standards offered by Tapestry are the ones worth pushing for wider 
acceptance. I understand this was the main motive behind the decision to 
offer it to Jakarta.

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http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
projects to the contrary)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 14:29, John McNally wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 06:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > John McNally wrote:
> > > -1.  
> > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > > add another.  
> > 
> > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> > limit itself to two.
> > 
> > - Sam Ruby
> > 
> 
> If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
> just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
> proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
> see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
> clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
> one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
> of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.
> 
> With database connection pools, I think there were 4 implementations
> floating around the jakarta projects.  When I started to look at
> upgrading turbine's version or dropping it for one with the features I
> was after, I was unable to find a replacement.  This included a survey
> outside jakarta where I investigated PoolMan.  Unfortunately I did not
> look into avalon's pool which may have met my requirements, but
> misconceptions led me to overlook it.  So I set about to create the cp
> that implemented the current api's as specified by jdbc.  I still did
> not want to do this within turbine, so I engaged the connection pool
> project in the commons.  Now it turns out the developer of PoolMan
> wanted to stop development and it was proposed that it be brought to
> apache.  
> 
> I would have said the same thing: jakarta already has a couple database
> connection pools, why do we need this one.  And in addition the ones
> that are here already implement the latest specifications, while this
> proposed one does not.  But PoolMan has name recognition, so it is able
> to overcome my resistance to add YetAnotherDBCP.  And it has a member of
> Apache who is pushing its adoption, which helps to alay my concerns
> about lack of a developer community, though not completely.
> 
> I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
> implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
> standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
> technology that is able to become a defacto standard.
> 
> As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
> development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
> technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
> conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
> well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
> only usable within the framework?
> 
> Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
> reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
> overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
> Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
> within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
> offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
> original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.
> 
> john mcnally
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 06:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> John McNally wrote:
> > -1.  
> > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > add another.  
> 
> It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> limit itself to two.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 

If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.

With database connection pools, I think there were 4 implementations
floating around the jakarta projects.  When I started to look at
upgrading turbine's version or dropping it for one with the features I
was after, I was unable to find a replacement.  This included a survey
outside jakarta where I investigated PoolMan.  Unfortunately I did not
look into avalon's pool which may have met my requirements, but
misconceptions led me to overlook it.  So I set about to create the cp
that implemented the current api's as specified by jdbc.  I still did
not want to do this within turbine, so I engaged the connection pool
project in the commons.  Now it turns out the developer of PoolMan
wanted to stop development and it was proposed that it be brought to
apache.  

I would have said the same thing: jakarta already has a couple database
connection pools, why do we need this one.  And in addition the ones
that are here already implement the latest specifications, while this
proposed one does not.  But PoolMan has name recognition, so it is able
to overcome my resistance to add YetAnotherDBCP.  And it has a member of
Apache who is pushing its adoption, which helps to alay my concerns
about lack of a developer community, though not completely.

I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
technology that is able to become a defacto standard.

As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
only usable within the framework?

Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.

john mcnally
 


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Re: Bug in Ant.bat with respect to Windows9x

[Andrew C. Oliver]

This is the inappropriate place for this.  Please go here:
jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html -- read it, then on the next page post
to the ant mailing list.

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 11:36, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi -- I wish to report a bug in your batch file ant.bat with regards to 
> Windows9x.  I'm running a Windows98 SE installation here and when I 
> downloaded Ant, I put it in C:\Ant and inserted in my autoexec.bat file in a 
> path statement C:\Ant\Bin and also a 
> SET ANT_HOME=C:\ANT as per your instructions.  But when (after rebooting my 
> system) I went into the dos window and typed ant with no arguments just to 
> test it out, I get about 9 Out of Environment Space error messages and one 
> Bad command or file error message.
> 
> I believe these errors stem from 2 things about Windows9x:
> 
>  1.  In Windows9x, you cannot set environmental variables in a batch file 
> other than the autoexec.bat file and then, if you do set some environmental 
> variable in Windows9x, you must reboot your system for the change to take 
> effect.  So, any change that you make in a batch file would be lost in, say, 
> ant.bat.
> 
>  2.  In Windows9x, you cannot use the word CALL in a batch file as it is 
> NOT part of the DOS used by Windows9x.  CALL was introduced in WindowsNT.  
> So, for example, if you say:
>for ... call ...   or
>if exists call .
> these are illegal constructs in Windows9x DOS.
> 
> I do have a question though -- Has anyone constructed a batch file that will 
> run on Windows9x for Ant??  If so, please let me know where I can download 
> it.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Allan J Horwitz, M.Sc.
> 
> --
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http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
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Bug in Ant.bat with respect to Windows9x

[DEVONS02]

Hi -- I wish to report a bug in your batch file ant.bat with regards to 
Windows9x.  I'm running a Windows98 SE installation here and when I 
downloaded Ant, I put it in C:\Ant and inserted in my autoexec.bat file in a 
path statement C:\Ant\Bin and also a 
SET ANT_HOME=C:\ANT as per your instructions.  But when (after rebooting my 
system) I went into the dos window and typed ant with no arguments just to 
test it out, I get about 9 Out of Environment Space error messages and one 
Bad command or file error message.

I believe these errors stem from 2 things about Windows9x:

 1.  In Windows9x, you cannot set environmental variables in a batch file 
other than the autoexec.bat file and then, if you do set some environmental 
variable in Windows9x, you must reboot your system for the change to take 
effect.  So, any change that you make in a batch file would be lost in, say, 
ant.bat.

 2.  In Windows9x, you cannot use the word CALL in a batch file as it is 
NOT part of the DOS used by Windows9x.  CALL was introduced in WindowsNT.  
So, for example, if you say:
   for ... call ...   or
   if exists call .
these are illegal constructs in Windows9x DOS.

I do have a question though -- Has anyone constructed a batch file that will 
run on Windows9x for Ant??  If so, please let me know where I can download 
it.

Sincerely,

Allan J Horwitz, M.Sc.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 12:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I think you'll find good news when you read the mailing list.  A year ago, I
> wouldn't have tried to move Tapestry to Jakarta, because the community
> wasn't strong enough, but now it seems like participation is there, with
> more people contributing ideas and code.  It's also gratifying when users
> ask questions on the list and two or three other Tapestry developers answer
> the question before I even see it.
> 

yes!  :-)

> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  Part of this is
> scheduling, deferring suggestings and minor fixes into later releases.
> Also, the pace of releases has been determined by me (i.e., when to freeze
> code, when to make a final release).  I'd rather have a voting system for
> that and buy in from others because its a lot of responsibility to determine
> when the code is stable enough (for instance, there is a rather obvious bug
> in the 2.2 release that should have been flushed out during the beta).
> 

I guess my knee-jerk is "why don't you just do it" first then become a
Jakarta project...  For POI we started doing this just before we moved
over... Even though in a tight-knit group we all thought it was a big
joke (I used to kid that Marc and I were the same person, I was just
impersonating him so that we had enough active committers ;-) )...  

It sounds like you have a reasonable idea of whats going on..

> Much of the evolution of Tapestry starts with a core idea (often, but not
> always, from me), is discussed on the list and in the Wiki, and eventually
> turned into code (and tests, and documentation).
> 

Wiki's rock!  :-)  They are only now beginning to take root here.

I'll be there shortly to take a look.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> > Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
> > requirements... Cool.
> >
> > I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
> > I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
> > submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
> > in and that kind of thing...)
> >
> > It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
> > change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
> > operations...
> >
> > Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
> > offended.
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > > John McNally wrote:
> > > > -1.
> > > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason
> to
> > > > add another.
> > >
> > > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to
> > > limit itself to two.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> > >
> > --
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

I think you'll find good news when you read the mailing list.  A year ago, I
wouldn't have tried to move Tapestry to Jakarta, because the community
wasn't strong enough, but now it seems like participation is there, with
more people contributing ideas and code.  It's also gratifying when users
ask questions on the list and two or three other Tapestry developers answer
the question before I even see it.

"Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  Part of this is
scheduling, deferring suggestings and minor fixes into later releases.
Also, the pace of releases has been determined by me (i.e., when to freeze
code, when to make a final release).  I'd rather have a voting system for
that and buy in from others because its a lot of responsibility to determine
when the code is stable enough (for instance, there is a rather obvious bug
in the 2.2 release that should have been flushed out during the beta).

Much of the evolution of Tapestry starts with a core idea (often, but not
always, from me), is discussed on the list and in the Wiki, and eventually
turned into code (and tests, and documentation).

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
> requirements... Cool.
>
> I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
> I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
> submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
> in and that kind of thing...)
>
> It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
> change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
> operations...
>
> Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
> offended.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > John McNally wrote:
> > > -1.
> > > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason
to
> > > add another.
> >
> > It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to
> > limit itself to two.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

> >
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Just my 2c..  If they have a strong community and meet the
requirements... Cool.

I think I'll go read their mail archives at let you know how much of it
I think is being developed by one guy.  (I mean if all of those people
submitted a trivial patch suddenly the day before this proposal was put
in and that kind of thing...)

It states that its currently run as a benevolent dictatorship but will
change when it moves over..  I think that is the incorrect order of
operations...  

Just my opinion..  I'm sorry for the inevitable people whom it has
offended. 

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 09:33, Sam Ruby wrote:
> John McNally wrote:
> > -1.  
> > Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
> > add another.  
> 
> It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
> limit itself to two.
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

John McNally wrote:

-1.  
Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
add another.  

It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
limit itself to two.

- Sam Ruby


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re[2]: Concern about the future of Apache

[Rich Persaud]

Those evaluating re-orgs should revisit Christopher Alexander's "Pattern Language", 
the inspiration for Gabriel's "Patterns of Software" and OO "design patterns":

>From 
>http://www.patternlanguage.com/leveltwo/patternsframegreen.htm?/leveltwo/../apl/twopanelnlb.htm
> :
---
"The language begins with patterns that define towns and communities. These patterns 
can never be designed or built in one fell swoop - but patient piecemeal growth, 
designed in such a way that every individual act is always helping to create or 
generate these larger global patterns, will, slowly and surely, over the years, make a 
community that has these global patterns in it."
---

Social space is not a bug.   In the long-term, social identity is polymorphic with 
respect to semantic identity.  Flip through a few centuries of history to find 
supporting evidence.   Consider Apache's external identity, relative to all other 
open-source projects.  Which is more stable: semantic or social identity?  An internal 
re-org may reduce semantic learning (for newbies or external groups) at the expense of 
mutilating social boundaries.  Or not.  I don't have enough history in Apache to know 
the answer.  But social space matters.

SNA reading: http://semanticstudios.com/publications/semantics/06.php

Rich
--
http://javaindex.org

|  I'm aware of that... what does that have to do with the message I
|  forwarded or the proposed reorganization which makes all jakarta
|  projects top level projects and phases jakarta out (basically)...

|  -Andy

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