Re: Due to popular demand, the "bad imports" report has been updated...

[Vladimir R. Bossicard]

Note that in two weeks the percentage dropped from 1.01% to .93%.  At
this rate, we'll soon have no bad imports.


I know that a lot of us don't like IDEs but Eclipse or IntelliJ will fix
this problem in 2 minutes.  Add 5 minutes for the commits and we are done!

PMD  is maintained by Tom (Jakarta committers) and
Jakarta/xml is a fabulous testbed for his application.  I'm sure that we
can give him a lot of valuable feedback to improve this product and our 
code at the same time.

-Vladimir

--
Vladimir R. Bossicard
www.bossicard.com



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RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[AManns]

Micael,

 I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do
you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic how
everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products,
yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage, why
would anyone want it???  God, some people! 
 As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read
them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.

Aaron




   

micael 


ornet.com>cc:  

  Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way   

12/06/02 07:55 

PM 

Please respond 

to Jakarta 

General List   

   

   





That is funny James.  I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we are so
dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying.  God, some
people!  Micael

At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:

> > the number 1 selling OS
>
>In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to
>Windows 2000.
>
>
>
>--
>James Mitchell
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
> >
> >
> >
> > Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous
> > that some people think that companies that use the open
> > source groupies to generate thier income are not just as
> > minipulative as the proprietary ones. . M$ is not
> > looking out for me, that I am sure about. . neither is
> > Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,...
> >
> > I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working
> > together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone
> > wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not
> > support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to
> > themselves.  Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about
> > Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS.
> >
> > Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one.
> >
> > Aaron Manns
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For
> > additional commands,
> > e-mail: 
> >
> >
>
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Micael

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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Geir Magnusson Jr .]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Micael,

 I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. 
Do
you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic 
how
everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible 
products,
yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage, 
why
would anyone want it???  God, some people! 

So we can fix them, or remove the parts that lead to vendor lock-in.  
For example, I always wanted the source to VisualC++ so I could fix 
their project file.  Instead of some stupid proprietary binary that was 
almost self-corrupting, I wanted to switch to a readable (fixable) text 
format like XML.

Same with Excel - I used to do real-time financial market data stuff, 
and we had such problems with Excel sometimes WRT real-time updates via 
DDE.  Now, I think Excel is one of their finest products (that and 
Intellimouse...), but we had needs that the average user didn't, and 
were happy to extend the thing if we could...


 As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did 
read
them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.

Aaron





micael

ornet.com>cc:
  Subject: RE: Sun Is 
Losing Its Way
12/06/02 07:55
PM
Please respond
to Jakarta
General List






That is funny James.  I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we 
are so
dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying.  God, 
some
people!  Micael

At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:

the number 1 selling OS


In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to
Windows 2000.



--
James Mitchell




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way



Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous
that some people think that companies that use the open
source groupies to generate thier income are not just as
minipulative as the proprietary ones. . M$ is not
looking out for me, that I am sure about. . neither is
Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,...

I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working
together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone
wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not
support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to
themselves.  Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about
Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS.

Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one.

Aaron Manns


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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Micael

---

This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents 
contain
information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and 
legally
privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was 
sent as
indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of 
the
information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If 
you
have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.  
Thank

you



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--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-355-2219(w)
Adeptra, Inc.   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[AManns]

Geir,

 I appreciate the intelligent response.  I have a question though, what
happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a product, and make
it so user friendly that not many people need support?  Now your product is
open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is buying you
'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to earn a living?
 one more question, is Redhat Linux Professional Server any different
from what you can download for free. If so how can they get away with that?

Aaron



   
   
"Geir  
   
Magnusson Jr."   To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
   
   
   
12/10/02 07:33 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to Jakarta 
   
General List   
   
   
   
   
   





On Tuesday, December 10, 2002, at 07:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>
> Micael,
>
>  I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
> dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort.
> Do
> you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic
> how
> everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible
> products,
> yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage,
> why
> would anyone want it???  God, some people! 

So we can fix them, or remove the parts that lead to vendor lock-in.
For example, I always wanted the source to VisualC++ so I could fix
their project file.  Instead of some stupid proprietary binary that was
almost self-corrupting, I wanted to switch to a readable (fixable) text
format like XML.

Same with Excel - I used to do real-time financial market data stuff,
and we had such problems with Excel sometimes WRT real-time updates via
DDE.  Now, I think Excel is one of their finest products (that and
Intellimouse...), but we had needs that the average user didn't, and
were happy to extend the thing if we could...


>  As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did
> read
> them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
>
>
> micael
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ornet.com>cc:
>   Subject: RE: Sun Is
> Losing Its Way
> 12/06/02 07:55
> PM
> Please respond
> to Jakarta
> General List
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That is funny James.  I really wonder if Aaron can truly believe we
> are so
> dim-witted or that anything he said was worth the time saying.  God,
> some
> people!  Micael
>
> At 03:14 PM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>> the number 1 selling OS
>>
>> In case anyone hasn't seen this yet, I've attached the source code to
>> Windows 2000.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Mitchell
>>
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:37 AM
>>> To: Jakarta General List
>>> Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ive been reading this thread and I think it is a bit humorous
>>> that some people think that companies that use the open
>>> source groupies to generate thier income are not just as
>>> minipulative as the proprietary ones. . M$ is not
>>> looking out for me, that I am sure about. . neither is
>>> Sun, nor Redhat, nor Debian,...
>>>
>>> I love open source and the idea of a bunch of people working
>>> together for a common goal, but I also think that if someone
>>> wants to make a living off of selling thier product, and not
>>> support, then they should be allowed to keep their code to
>>> themselves.  Sometimes I wonder if Sun would whine about
>>> Microsoft as much as they do if Sun had the number 1 selling OS.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one.
>>>
>>> Aaron Manns
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscr

RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Danny Angus]

> is Redhat Linux Professional Server any different
> from what you can download for free. If so how can they get away 
> with that?

Funnily enough this is the second time I've been asked this in a month, and what I 
reckon is...

It comes complete ready to install with tested kernel patches and admin/config for ip 
clustering & failover with heartbeat monitoring.
It includes support, including support for this extra stuff.

For deploying clusters it is a more predictable baseline to work from than applying 
patches to several machines by hand.

It doesn't (AFAIK) include any proprietery code, but all the elements have (I presume) 
been tested together and selected to provide reliability and stability. 

The opportunity cost of not buying it is time spent designing a stable configuration 
of these additional patches and programmes, and the cost of accepting the blame if 
your home-spun set-up fails in action.

As the commercial target market for any high availability solution is *by definition* 
seeking reliability a reputable tested/testable product with support guarentees is 
likely to prove more attractive than an un-proven bespoke offering.

Organisations which understand the software will benefit financially from replicating 
the set-up used by RedHat, but only if they are confident enough to take the risk.

d.


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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Conor MacNeill]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Micael,

 I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do
you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic how
everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible products,
yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage, why
would anyone want it???  God, some people! 
 As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did read
them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.



Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I 
would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being documented 
so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and 
compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use 
Microsoft products as I please.

I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by 
patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole 
C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even 
the ECMA standardization.

Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ...

Conor



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Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[AManns]

I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I
would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being
documented
so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and
compete with their products

I agree!!




   
 
Conor MacNeill 
 

ss.com.au> cc: 
 
   Subject: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way  
 
12/10/02 08:26 AM  
 
Please respond to  
 
Jakarta General List   
 
   
 
   
 




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Micael,
>
>  I am sorry that you think of yourself as one to be believed as
> dim-witted, because I know that I never inferred anything of the sort. Do
> you have some issues you would like to talk about?.  Isn't it ironic how
> everyone continues bash MicroSoft because they make such horrible
products,
> yet everyone wanted the sourcecode released.  If it is such garbage, why
> would anyone want it???  God, some people! 
>  As for my comments being worth the time saying, you and James did
read
> them and feel a need to respond. So maybe they were worth it after all.
>

Personally, I don't really want or need to see Microsoft's code. What I
would like to see is their file formats, protocols and APIs being
documented
so that other developers, open-source or otherwise, can interoperate and
compete with their products. Then I can choose to use or not to use
Microsoft products as I please.

I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by
patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole
C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even
the ECMA standardization.

Anyway, back to more pleasant dreams ...

Conor



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RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hi Aaron,

> -Mensaje original-
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Asunto: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
> 
> 
> 
> Geir,
> 
>  I appreciate the intelligent response.  I have a 
> question though, what
> happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a 
> product, and make
> it so user friendly that not many people need support?  Now 
> your product is
> open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is 
> buying you
> 'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to 
> earn a living?

If you have the ability to do such a feat, you will be worshipped. You will
be able to earn a living just by giving lectures. Write a book about
software development, and you will have enough royalties for the rest of
your life.

And with a little luck, Microsoft will make you an offer you can't refuse...
Make a crippled port of their software to BSD!

Un saludo,

Alex.

RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[AManns]

Alex,

 Point taken, but I not talking about some enormous enterprise
OS/networking/DB system.  but more of a small (able to be developed my
myself and a friend or 2) application.  Perhaps an accounting app, dr
office software, or warehouse inventory controller.  if a programmer can
sell 10,000 for $20 each. they would be doing pretty well, instead of
someone just downloading it and you see nothing for your work.  I feel that
the interface of your product mean more than the code.  If someone wants to
develope an automatic order system to work with your warehouse controller
then it is more important that they have a way to interact with the
generated date than it is to have the code.  but most small businesses
don't need a huge generic DB, and possibly would be more inclined to buy a
small specialized product.  Why would they buy the cow if they can get the
milk for free?

Aaron



   

"Fernandez Martinez,   

Alejandro"To: 'Jakarta General List' 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
Subject: RE: Sun Is Losing 
Its Way   
   

12/10/02 09:13 AM  

Please respond to Jakarta  

General List   

   

   





Hi Aaron,

> -Mensaje original-
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Asunto: Re: Sun Is Losing Its Way
>
>
>
> Geir,
>
>  I appreciate the intelligent response.  I have a
> question though, what
> happens when you pour your heart and soul into building a
> product, and make
> it so user friendly that not many people need support?  Now
> your product is
> open source and everyone is getting it for free so nobody is
> buying you
> 'commercial' version and you can't sell enough support to
> earn a living?

If you have the ability to do such a feat, you will be worshipped. You will
be able to earn a living just by giving lectures. Write a book about
software development, and you will have enough royalties for the rest of
your life.

And with a little luck, Microsoft will make you an offer you can't
refuse...
Make a crippled port of their software to BSD!

Un saludo,

Alex.





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RE: Sun Is Losing Its Way

[Danny Angus]

> I'd also like to see all that provided royalty free and unencumbered by 
> patents, submarine or otherwise. I haven't really flirted with the whole 
> C#/.NET thing but this seems to remain a question mark over Mono and even 
> the ECMA standardization.

C# is just another language, without .NET and the common-language-whateveritscalled 
its nothing special,
M$'s plan looks like being to try to fool us into using C# because its more free than 
java, and watch us all roll up to but Visual Studio C# .NET whatever.

They'll also expect to see people buying operating systems to deploy the applications 
on.

IMO any attempt to build competitive platforms for compiled C# is doomed to fail 
because M$ is well known for moving the goal posts fast and far, always changing the 
rules of the game to stay one step ahead. 

That they can use such a strategy at all is enough proof for me that they hold an 
unhealthy monopoly over certain sectors of corporate IT, whatever any judge might say.

d.


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