Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

El 24/03/18 a las 04:34, Aaron Bauman escribió:
>
> On March 23, 2018 11:11:16 PM EDT, "Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera 
> (klondike)"  wrote:
>> El 20/03/18 a las 09:52, Kristian Fiskerstrand escribió:
>>> This was not put in effect on 23 January 2018, however I have now
>>> requested infra to put it in place in [bug 650964]. Users wishing
>>> posting permissions are encouraged to find a mentor and register in
>> [bug
>>> 644070]
>>>
>>> References:
>>> [bug 650964] https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964
>>> [bug 644070] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070
>> I can't wait for it to finally happen. I have been wishing to be able
>> to
>> genuinely ignore this list for so long.
>>
>> Finally, the Council will give me a propper reason to be able to do so!
> How does the councils decision give you a reason to do so?
Because if I want to see wizards on top of their unreachable ivory
towers I prefer to go play heroes 2 of might and magic than reading a
mailing list.

(And because a project that gives their back to their community is
condemned to die as no new developers will cover for the retiring ones).



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Aaron Bauman]

On March 23, 2018 11:11:16 PM EDT, "Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)" 
 wrote:
>El 20/03/18 a las 09:52, Kristian Fiskerstrand escribió:
>> This was not put in effect on 23 January 2018, however I have now
>> requested infra to put it in place in [bug 650964]. Users wishing
>> posting permissions are encouraged to find a mentor and register in
>[bug
>> 644070]
>>
>> References:
>> [bug 650964] https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964
>> [bug 644070] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070
>
>I can't wait for it to finally happen. I have been wishing to be able
>to
>genuinely ignore this list for so long.
>
>Finally, the Council will give me a propper reason to be able to do so!

How does the councils decision give you a reason to do so?

You could have ignored it before the decision [1].

What an asinine statement.

[1]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel/Developer_Handbook/What_you_get
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

El 20/03/18 a las 09:52, Kristian Fiskerstrand escribió:
> This was not put in effect on 23 January 2018, however I have now
> requested infra to put it in place in [bug 650964]. Users wishing
> posting permissions are encouraged to find a mentor and register in [bug
> 644070]
>
> References:
> [bug 650964] https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964
> [bug 644070] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070

I can't wait for it to finally happen. I have been wishing to be able to
genuinely ignore this list for so long.

Finally, the Council will give me a propper reason to be able to do so!




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

On 01/09/2018 10:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to implement 
> changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> 
> These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into 
> effect on 23 January 2018.
> 
> * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>   whitelisted additional participants.
> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
>   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
> 
> If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on 
> gentoo-dev, 
> - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to 
> forward your message,
> - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
> 
> If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on 
> bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching 
> for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.
> 
> [1] https://projects.gentoo.org/council/meeting-logs/20171210-summary.txt
> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct
> [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070  (alias g-dev-whitelist)
> 

This was not put in effect on 23 January 2018, however I have now
requested infra to put it in place in [bug 650964]. Users wishing
posting permissions are encouraged to find a mentor and register in [bug
644070]

References:
[bug 650964] https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964
[bug 644070] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070
-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Gordon Pettey]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:09 AM, Rich Freeman  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>>
>> Gentoo's singling itself itself out as less receptive to its users
>> simply because some its developers are too Trumpian to resist arguing
>> with people who criticize their work or Gentoo.
>>
>
> Wouldn't it be a bit exclusionary to require prospective developers to
> be qualified to be heads of state?
>
> I'd think that such a thing would discourage users from contributing.


Qualifications are subjective. For both groups of people.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Tom H  wrote:
>
> Gentoo's singling itself itself out as less receptive to its users
> simply because some its developers are too Trumpian to resist arguing
> with people who criticize their work or Gentoo.
>

Wouldn't it be a bit exclusionary to require prospective developers to
be qualified to be heads of state?

I'd think that such a thing would discourage users from contributing.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Tom H]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:57 AM, David Seifert  wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-10 at 08:55 +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:48:56 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:

 * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
 and whitelisted additional participants.
>>>
>>> This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
>>> openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a
>>> rather thick skin and result in high noise. It's a price worth
>>> paying.
>>>
>>> I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b)
>>> consider the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is
>>> just not working.
>>
>> Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Seems we're turning into an
>> elitist club or something... I wonder how many users we're going to
>> loose on this one. Well done council :-(
>
> If your only reason to use Gentoo is because you can post to the main
> developer ML, and not because we try to provide a great distribution
> with lots of choice, a current toolchain and lots of customization,
> then you're likely using the wrong distribution.

It's a question of perception. Some users might come to feel that the
Gentoo developers are not interested in their input, unlike the
developers of all other distributions (that I know of).

Gentoo's singling itself itself out as less receptive to its users
simply because some its developers are too Trumpian to resist arguing
with people who criticize their work or Gentoo.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Paul B. Henson]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 05:07:22PM +, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Maybe this is a discussion for -project, then?
> 
> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > * and keep commenting opinionated on technical things they plainly have no 
> >   clue about (while whining when are told they sprout bulls##t).
> 
> You Sir are IMHO neither fit for the office of council nor of comrel,
> solely based on your communication style in that one mail.

It's not libel if it's true ;) (at least in the USA; your free speech may
vary). I'm not necessarily in favor of censoring the list, but I've got
nothing agaist calling out clueless entitlement when you come across it.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Paul B. Henson]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:

> * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>   whitelisted additional participants.

Any chance you'd consider automatically white-listing all current proxy
maintainers :)?

> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.

Or should I go harass the dev that usually commits my changes? Arguably,
being a proxy maintainer already implies at least one dev thinks you're
not a total idiot, as random users can't add themselves to the package
metadata on their own.

Thanks...

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Matthias Maier]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018, at 11:34 CST, Rich Freeman  wrote:

> It is kind of hard to get new people interested in fixing bugs when
> half the traffic is complaining because the people doing the work
> aren't doing it in a way that makes the people not doing the work feel
> important.

++

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Peter Stuge  wrote:
> Maybe this is a discussion for -project, then?
>

Getting these kinds of non-technical discussions off of -dev is most
of the point of this.  The purpose of this list is discussion of
things like eclass changes, fixing bugs, and so on.  It is kind of
hard to get new people interested in fixing bugs when half the traffic
is complaining because the people doing the work aren't doing it in a
way that makes the people not doing the work feel important.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Peter Stuge]

Maybe this is a discussion for -project, then?


Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> a few outside trolls who
> * keep pushing their personal agenda in endless threads,
> * confuse their own inability to contribute with being a mistreated underdog,
> * and keep commenting opinionated on technical things they plainly have no 
>   clue about (while whining when are told they sprout bulls##t).
..
> Andreas K. Hüttel
..
> (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

You Sir are IMHO neither fit for the office of council nor of comrel,
solely based on your communication style in that one mail.


I would not vote for you, and would vote against you if that's even possible.

//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

Michał Górny schrieb:

I guess you should have voiced your opinion back when discussion was
taking place instead of being hostile *now* because the Council listened
to what the developers requested.


The arguments why these posting restrictions are a pretty bad idea have 
all been voiced back then already. So no point in posting them again 
each time.


But of course it is also true that Council is elected by and acts on 
behalf of the developers. So my suggestion for developers who heavily 
disagree with this decision is to look at who voted which way in the 
public logs. Then read carefully who in their next Council election 
manifesto plans to lift this restriction again.



Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[R0b0t1]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:53 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> I guess you should have voiced your opinion back when discussion was
> taking place instead of being hostile *now* because the Council listened
> to what the developers requested.
>
> And if you are curious, then I've been asked by multiple developers
> (and a few users) requesting the restriction, and I haven't been
> contacted by a single one who asked otherwise.
>

My initial concern was related to what you are seeing now. Mailing
list participation is very relaxed. What is likely to happen is some
day a user will have cause to send a message and won't be able to,
because they don't know what is going on or why the list does not work
like most lists they interact with.

I am not sure it is wise to speak for those that are not present,
because whether someone responds or not does not tell you anything
about their opinion.

Respectfully,
 R0b0t1

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Roy Bamford]

On 2018.01.11 01:03, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs,
> including
> > Council and comrel members?
> 
> So far noone has even considered "striking" devs off the list. If this
> even 
> were to happen ever, it would have to be backed by a full comrel team
> decision 
> / vote. And these don't happen often, don't happen quickly, and don't
> happen 
> lightly. (I much prefer fixing the glibc ebuilds, horrible as these
> may be.)
> 
> We have now an imperfect solution to an unneccessary problem. If
> anyone can 
> come up with a better solution (that is still an improvement over
> doing 
> nothing), I'm all ears. List moderation is not one, since a) it still
> hasn't 
> been implemented technically, b) even if that were done, we would
> still 
> require an active moderation team, and c) then we start bikeshedding
> about the 
> moderation rules.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfri...@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer
> (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)


Andreas,

Does removing non  @gentoo.org email address from the ML not require 
that process too?

Gentoo does not have any other disiplinary process than the action by 
comrel that you describe.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Lars Wendler]

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:03:54 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:

>On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 08:55:11AM +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something...   
>
>Elitist seems too kind a word.  Knee-jerk reaction, petty vendetta,
>impulsive emotional reaction comes to mind - instead of articulating
>and implementing a vision for the distribution, principled action,
>making all devs work together towards the goals that have been set.
>Not day to day reactions and bad ones at that.  Council is failing its
>one main task - it prolly has been for some time, this one also fails
>"first, do no harm" test.

A german term comes to my mind which applies perfectly to this:
"Blinder Aktionismus" which roughly translates to "blind actionism".

>Mind you they are not harming willingly.  I am pretty sure they are all
>well intentioned.  They, as a group, just do not have, I dont know, the
>vision, the experience, the personality to lead a distro.
>
>We need a change as otherwise I am afraid the future is not bright.  I
>think with this last straw I lost faith in the current setup.  Death by
>a committee.  Yey.
>

I'm totally baffled that few people seem to know how to filter trolls
out of their inboxes.
In the past such trolls were treated with a "plonk" and all was good.
But nowadays everything has to be ruled somehow.
Ah well, it's only a disservice to our users. Nothing the council needs
to worry about as they seem to have forgotten that they once were users
as well...


-- 
Lars Wendler
Gentoo package maintainer
GPG: 21CC CF02 4586 0A07 ED93  9F68 498F E765 960E 9B39


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Eray Aslan]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 08:55:11AM +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 

Elitist seems too kind a word.  Knee-jerk reaction, petty vendetta,
impulsive emotional reaction comes to mind - instead of articulating and
implementing a vision for the distribution, principled action, making
all devs work together towards the goals that have been set.  Not day to
day reactions and bad ones at that.  Council is failing its one main
task - it prolly has been for some time, this one also fails "first, do
no harm" test.

Mind you they are not harming willingly.  I am pretty sure they are all
well intentioned.  They, as a group, just do not have, I dont know, the
vision, the experience, the personality to lead a distro.

We need a change as otherwise I am afraid the future is not bright.  I
think with this last straw I lost faith in the current setup.  Death by
a committee.  Yey.

-- 
Eray

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Mittwoch, 10. Januar 2018, 18:16:33 CET schrieb Vincent-Xavier JUMEL:
> Le 2018-01-10 10:53, Michał Górny a écrit :
> > Last I checked, Gentoo was a Linux distribution. However, some people
> > prefer to turn it into open discussion forum that has nothing to do
> > with
> > making a distribution.
> 
> No it has. Giving power to a subset of users, denying interaction with
> future contributors unless they enroll is the eaxct way to kill Gentoo
> as a community !

We wouldn't have needed to go this far if not for a few outside trolls who
* keep pushing their personal agenda in endless threads,
* confuse their own inability to contribute with being a mistreated underdog,
* and keep commenting opinionated on technical things they plainly have no 
clue about (while whining when are told they sprout bulls##t).

We do not have a problem with "future contributors". I wager those will rather 
increase in numbers once the list spam is gone.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfri...@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Andreas K. Huettel]

> Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs, including
> Council and comrel members?

So far noone has even considered "striking" devs off the list. If this even 
were to happen ever, it would have to be backed by a full comrel team decision 
/ vote. And these don't happen often, don't happen quickly, and don't happen 
lightly. (I much prefer fixing the glibc ebuilds, horrible as these may be.)

We have now an imperfect solution to an unneccessary problem. If anyone can 
come up with a better solution (that is still an improvement over doing 
nothing), I'm all ears. List moderation is not one, since a) it still hasn't 
been implemented technically, b) even if that were done, we would still 
require an active moderation team, and c) then we start bikeshedding about the 
moderation rules.


-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfri...@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[M. J. Everitt]

On 10/01/18 23:35, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 6:27 PM, M. J. Everitt  wrote:
>
>> I think Roy's point is quite valid .. if you want to cut out users from
>> contribution why are you even posting on -dev ML in the first place?
> Probably because we don't want to cut out users from contribution.
>
I think the proverb "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"
probably applies here ...

[With apologies for all the proverbs and metaphors lately!]



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 6:27 PM, M. J. Everitt  wrote:
> On 10/01/18 23:20, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Roy Bamford  wrote:
>>> Being somwhat old and cynical, I'm seeing signs of history
>>> repeating itself.
>>>
>>> Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs, including
>>> Council and comrel members?
>>>
>> It would seem that this question is already answered:
>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct#Consequences
>>
>> Being banned from lists or removal of dev status (which would also
>> remove posting privs unless whitelisted) are already listed as
>> potential consequences for refusal to comply with the CoC.
>>
> I have to ask a stupid question here .. how do devs apply to return to
> the list? Via other devs, council, Comrel, the Foundation, Infra, or
> what? (the "select few"/clique/club/etc?)

Go figure, the answer was linked from the previously posted URL:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:ComRel#The_Policy_for_Resolution_of_Conflicts

> I think Roy's point is quite valid .. if you want to cut out users from
> contribution why are you even posting on -dev ML in the first place?

Probably because we don't want to cut out users from contribution.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[M. J. Everitt]

On 10/01/18 23:20, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Roy Bamford  wrote:
>> Being somwhat old and cynical, I'm seeing signs of history
>> repeating itself.
>>
>> Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs, including
>> Council and comrel members?
>>
> It would seem that this question is already answered:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct#Consequences
>
> Being banned from lists or removal of dev status (which would also
> remove posting privs unless whitelisted) are already listed as
> potential consequences for refusal to comply with the CoC.
>
I have to ask a stupid question here .. how do devs apply to return to
the list? Via other devs, council, Comrel, the Foundation, Infra, or
what? (the "select few"/clique/club/etc?)

I think Roy's point is quite valid .. if you want to cut out users from
contribution why are you even posting on -dev ML in the first place? Use
-core and/or #-dev IRC .. or is this simply an attempt to replicate
#-dev IRC as a ML .. and you simply move the "problem" elsewhere .. and
then apply sanctions to that system also .. you create a rod for your
own back ...

I'm tending towards the idea that this is a technical "solution" to a
non-technical problem, and as such, nobody is capable of "fixing" that ..



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Roy Bamford  wrote:
>
> Being somwhat old and cynical, I'm seeing signs of history
> repeating itself.
>
> Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs, including
> Council and comrel members?
>

It would seem that this question is already answered:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct#Consequences

Being banned from lists or removal of dev status (which would also
remove posting privs unless whitelisted) are already listed as
potential consequences for refusal to comply with the CoC.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Roy Bamford]

On 2018.01.09 21:20, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:

[snip]
> * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against
> the
>   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting
> permission.
> 

[snip]

> -- 
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfri...@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer
> (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

Andreas,

Being somwhat old and cynical, I'm seeing signs of history 
repeating itself.

Does being 'struck off' the list in this way apply to devs, including 
Council and comrel members? 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alec Warner]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 3:48 PM, M. J. Everitt  wrote:

> On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
>
>> W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09∶11 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
>> napisał:
>> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny 
>> wrote:
>> > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
>> > > napisał:
>> > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <
>> dilfri...@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to
>> implement
>> > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
>> > > > >
>> > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will
>> come into
>> > > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it
>> is now.
>> > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
>> and
>> > > > >   whitelisted additional participants.
>> > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We
>> intend this
>> > > > >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
>> > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour
>> against the
>> > > > >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting
>> permission.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
>> > > > > gentoo-dev,
>> > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask
>> him/her to
>> > > > > forward your message,
>> > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you
>> whitelisted.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please
>> comment on
>> > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you
>> are vouching
>> > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their
>> activity.
>> > > >
>> > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer
>> acks
>> > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly
>> unlikely.
>> > > > Then what do we do?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Then it becomes comrel business.
>> >
>> > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be
>> solved?
>>
>> One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
>> evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
>> it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
>> new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
>> positive to post.
>>
>> Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
>> the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.
>>
>
> This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.
>
> https://www.gentoo.org/donate/
>
> Get membership posting privs.
>
> -A
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Michał Górny
>>
>>
>>
> Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :]
>

As I (attempted badly) to explain on IRC; I don't like this decision. But
ultimately the project elects the council to do stuff like this.
As engineers I think we remain bad at making decisions that are imperfect,
or based on incomplete information. I don't
fault the council for taking action (even action I don't like) because I
believe they felt something had to be done to improve the lists.

No one should be afraid to try something because it might not work; trying
things are how we learn.

-A

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[M. J. Everitt]

On 10/01/18 19:31, Alec Warner wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Michał Górny  > wrote:
>
> W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09∶11 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> napisał:
> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny  > wrote:
> > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt
> Turner
> > > napisał:
> > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel
> > wrote:
> > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was
> made to implement
> > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > > > >
> > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and
> will come into
> > > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains
> as it is now.
> > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo
> developers and
> > > > >   whitelisted additional participants.
> > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for
> you. We intend this
> > > > >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as
> behaviour against the
> > > > >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the
> posting permission.
> > > > >
> > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a
> discussion on
> > > > > gentoo-dev,
> > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and
> ask him/her to
> > > > > forward your message,
> > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you
> whitelisted.
> > > > >
> > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted,
> please comment on
> > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission,
> if you are vouching
> > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their
> activity.
> > > >
> > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo
> developer acks
> > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly
> unlikely.
> > > > Then what do we do?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then it becomes comrel business.
> >
> > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already
> be solved?
>
> One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
> evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this
> case
> it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching
> for his
> new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
> positive to post.
>
> Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
> the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.
>
>
> This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.
>
> https://www.gentoo.org/donate/
>
> Get membership posting privs.
>
> -A
>  
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Michał Górny
>
>
>
Do I read a hint of sarcasm there too Alec?! :]


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Fabian Groffen]

On 09-01-2018 22:20:56 +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on 
> gentoo-dev, 
> - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to 
> forward your message,
> - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
>
> If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on
> bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching
> for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.

For the record, I do not like this decision.  Not just because it puts a
burden on developers to become comrel agents.  A technical solution like
this, doesn't solve the actual problem.  Unfortunately this solution
destroys much more than it intends to fix, which is a loss for Gentoo.

Since this turns -dev into -core-light, I suggest to anyone who doesn't
like this direction that we move discussions to -project instead.

Thanks,
Fabian

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michał Górny]

W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 14∶31 -0500, użytkownik Alec Warner
napisał:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> 
> > W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09∶11 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> > napisał:
> > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> > > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> > > > napisał:
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <
> > 
> > dilfri...@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to
> > 
> > implement
> > > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will
> > 
> > come into
> > > > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is
> > 
> > now.
> > > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
> > 
> > and
> > > > > >   whitelisted additional participants.
> > > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We
> > 
> > intend this
> > > > > >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> > > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour
> > 
> > against the
> > > > > >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting
> > 
> > permission.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> > > > > > gentoo-dev,
> > > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask
> > 
> > him/her to
> > > > > > forward your message,
> > > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you
> > 
> > whitelisted.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please
> > 
> > comment on
> > > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you
> > 
> > are vouching
> > > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their
> > 
> > activity.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer
> > 
> > acks
> > > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly
> > 
> > unlikely.
> > > > > Then what do we do?
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Then it becomes comrel business.
> > > 
> > > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be
> > 
> > solved?
> > 
> > One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
> > evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
> > it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
> > new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
> > positive to post.
> > 
> > Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
> > the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.
> > 
> 
> This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.
> 
> https://www.gentoo.org/donate/
> 
> Get membership posting privs.
> 

I should point out that even as a joke this is highly inappropriate.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michał Górny]

W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 18∶16 +0100, użytkownik Vincent-Xavier 
JUMEL napisał:
> Le 2018-01-10 10:53, Michał Górny a écrit :
> > Last I checked, Gentoo was a Linux distribution. However, some people
> > prefer to turn it into open discussion forum that has nothing to do 
> > with
> > making a distribution.
> > 
> 
> No it has. Giving power to a subset of users, denying interaction with
> future contributors unless they enroll is the eaxct way to kill Gentoo
> as a community !

Nobody's denying interaction with future contributors. We're just
closing one of discussion forum that doesn't work for us.

> > And if you are curious, then I've been asked by multiple developers
> > (and a few users) requesting the restriction, and I haven't been
> > contacted by a single one who asked otherwise.
> 
> People have voiced against this proposals before. So you want to protect
> some developper instead of getting an open community.

Yes, if I have to choose between:

a. a developer, a person who I know is spending a significant effort
making Gentoo a better distribution, and

b. an 'open community' which focuses around a few vocal users whose only
'contribution' so far were negative and/or insulting mailing list posts
towards Gentoo developers,

then I'm sorry but I'm going to go for protecting the developer. Because
in the end, our users benefit from working distribution more than from
having a discussion forum where they can complain that the distribution
does not work and debate which of the developers they blame for it.

> As I've already said, Gentoo community is taking (and part is because of
> lack of user consideration) a very bad direction.
> 
> I might want to spread the word that Gentoo is not anymore a welcoming
> community for people who want to delve inside GNU/Linux and easily
> understant how is build a complete OS.
> 

Thank you for proving our point.


-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alec Warner]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:

> W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09∶11 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> napisał:
> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> > > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> > > napisał:
> > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <
> dilfri...@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to
> implement
> > > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > > > >
> > > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will
> come into
> > > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is
> now.
> > > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
> and
> > > > >   whitelisted additional participants.
> > > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We
> intend this
> > > > >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> > > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour
> against the
> > > > >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting
> permission.
> > > > >
> > > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> > > > > gentoo-dev,
> > > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask
> him/her to
> > > > > forward your message,
> > > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you
> whitelisted.
> > > > >
> > > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please
> comment on
> > > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you
> are vouching
> > > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their
> activity.
> > > >
> > > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer
> acks
> > > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly
> unlikely.
> > > > Then what do we do?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Then it becomes comrel business.
> >
> > If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be
> solved?
>
> One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
> evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
> it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
> new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
> positive to post.
>
> Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
> the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.
>

This sounds like an amazing fundraising opportunity.

https://www.gentoo.org/donate/

Get membership posting privs.

-A


>
> --
> Best regards,
> Michał Górny
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michał Górny]

W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 09∶11 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
napisał:
> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> > W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> > napisał:
> > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel  
> > > wrote:
> > > > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to 
> > > > implement
> > > > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > > > 
> > > > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come 
> > > > into
> > > > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > > > 
> > > > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> > > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
> > > >   whitelisted additional participants.
> > > > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend 
> > > > this
> > > >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> > > > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
> > > >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
> > > > 
> > > > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> > > > gentoo-dev,
> > > > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to
> > > > forward your message,
> > > > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
> > > > 
> > > > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please 
> > > > comment on
> > > > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are 
> > > > vouching
> > > > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.
> > > 
> > > It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer acks
> > > one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly unlikely.
> > > Then what do we do?
> > > 
> > 
> > Then it becomes comrel business.
> 
> If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be solved?

One of the problems mentioned before was that a person could easily
evade the ban via subscribing from another e-mail address. In this case
it's no longer possible, as he would need to obtain the vouching for his
new e-mail address, and for that he would first have to have something
positive to post.

Of course this relies on developers not vouching for new people out of
the blue but expecting them to have something to contribute first.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Vincent-Xavier JUMEL]

Le 2018-01-10 10:53, Michał Górny a écrit :

Last I checked, Gentoo was a Linux distribution. However, some people
prefer to turn it into open discussion forum that has nothing to do 
with

making a distribution.


No it has. Giving power to a subset of users, denying interaction with
future contributors unless they enroll is the eaxct way to kill Gentoo
as a community !



I guess you should have voiced your opinion back when discussion was
taking place instead of being hostile *now* because the Council 
listened

to what the developers requested.


I've voiced my opinion as a 10 year user. I've never take nor the
quizzes, nor made any move to become a Gentoo Developper beacause of
this kind of closedmind state.


And if you are curious, then I've been asked by multiple developers
(and a few users) requesting the restriction, and I haven't been
contacted by a single one who asked otherwise.

People have voiced against this proposals before. So you want to protect
some developper instead of getting an open community.

As I've already said, Gentoo community is taking (and part is because of
lack of user consideration) a very bad direction.

I might want to spread the word that Gentoo is not anymore a welcoming
community for people who want to delve inside GNU/Linux and easily
understant how is build a complete OS.

Cheers
--
Vincent-Xavier JUMEL GPG Id: 0x14ABB3F2 http://thetys-retz.net

Rejoignez les 5334 adhérents de l'April http://www.april.org/adherer
Parinux, logiciel libre à Paris : http://www.parinux.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Matt Turner]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 1:55 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
> napisał:
>> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel  
>> wrote:
>> > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to implement
>> > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
>> >
>> > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into
>> > effect on 23 January 2018.
>> >
>> > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
>> > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>> >   whitelisted additional participants.
>> > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>> >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
>> > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
>> >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
>> >
>> > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
>> > gentoo-dev,
>> > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to
>> > forward your message,
>> > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
>> >
>> > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on
>> > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are 
>> > vouching
>> > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.
>>
>> It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer acks
>> one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly unlikely.
>> Then what do we do?
>>
>
> Then it becomes comrel business.

If that was an effective solution, wouldn't the problem already be solved?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[kuzetsa]

On 01/10/2018 09:55 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> On 10/01/18 08:55, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
> Gentoo has already had the reputation of being an elitist club for
> years. As such I'd like to see steps to remedy this status, rather than
> taking steps like this, which just exacerbates the unfortunate status.

Definitions matter:

An impressive skillset could be called elite.

One form could be an elected set of people who have
veto power for decisions about the gentoo project.

Another definition could focus on social standing,
influence, the ability to control peers and apply
pressure to defend one's status. This is not often
welcoming to outsiders with differing viewpoints.

Many aspects of gentoo development can be called
elite. The 3rd definition is the one which I'm
least comfortable with. Elaboration follows:

If the merits of organizational and technical goals
are the only definitions used, there is no reason
for the elitism to be feared. Competency is not a
problem.

Perhaps this is a discussion more suited to the
gentoo-project mailing list. It's taking a turn
away from development concerns again. That's part
of the point for this new posting restriction.

On-topic subject matter can be relayed, and/or
persons prone to development concerns are still
able to be whitelisted. I see no problem here.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[M. J. Everitt]

On 10/01/18 14:55, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> On 10/01/18 08:55, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
> Gentoo has already had the reputation of being an elitist club for
> years. As such I'd like to see steps to remedy this status, rather than
> taking steps like this, which just exacerbates the unfortunate status.
At the risk of earning myself an outright ban may I propose the following:

Perhaps some of the devs still reading this thread, may wish to table a
discussion at the forthcoming Gentoo council meeting, that this subject
is given some discussion by those [supposedly] steering the
distribution. Perhaps some of those elected representatives(!) who could
potentially be considered perpetrators of this problem would then be
tasked with addressing the issue properly, both in their own courts, and
more widely ...



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alexander Berntsen]

On 10/01/18 08:55, Lars Wendler wrote:
> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
Gentoo has already had the reputation of being an elitist club for
years. As such I'd like to see steps to remedy this status, rather than
taking steps like this, which just exacerbates the unfortunate status.
-- 
Alexander
berna...@gentoo.org
https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[M. J. Everitt]

On 10/01/18 13:49, kuzetsa wrote:
> On 01/10/2018 05:57 AM, David Seifert wrote:
>> On Wed, 2018-01-10 at 08:55 +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:48:56 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:
>>>
 On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
> and
>   whitelisted additional participants.  
 This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
 openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a
 rather
 thick skin and result in high noise.  It's a price worth paying.

 I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b)
 consider
 the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is just not
 working.

>>> Wow. I couldn't have said it better. 
>>> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
>>> I wonder how many users we're going to loose on this one. Well done
>>> council :-(
>>>
>> If your only reason to use Gentoo is because you can post to the main
>> developer ML, and not because we try to provide a great distribution
>> with lots of choice, a current toolchain and lots of customization,
>> then you're likely using the wrong distribution.
>>
> If development of a quality distribution which meets
> these goals requires thick skin, something is broken:
>
> I've never seen anything from the gentoo foundation
> which suggests that the gentoo developer mail list
> should be considered a safe space for disparaging
> remarks. Think of the messaging on this - for every
> 1 or 2 people who are willing to come forward to
> address these concerns, there are likely "not zero"
> who didn't want to deal with confrontation and the
> risk that rudeness and hostile behavior would be
> defended.
>
Your argument seems partially contradictory here, and I think the
interpretation may be muddled with language barriers for those
developers/users with English as a foreign language ...

Are you reinforcing the point [widely accepted by many whose heads
aren't in the proverbial sand[0]] that Gentoo is [or is becoming] an
elitist club, or condoning "bad behaviour" by both devs and non-devs on
the mailing lists

Your final point, however, makes a lot of sense .. [1]


[0] - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/head-in-the-sand
[1] - https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/keep+head+down



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[kuzetsa]

On 01/10/2018 05:57 AM, David Seifert wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-01-10 at 08:55 +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:48:56 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
 * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
 and
   whitelisted additional participants.  
>>> This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
>>> openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a
>>> rather
>>> thick skin and result in high noise.  It's a price worth paying.
>>>
>>> I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b)
>>> consider
>>> the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is just not
>>> working.
>>>
>> Wow. I couldn't have said it better. 
>> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
>> I wonder how many users we're going to loose on this one. Well done
>> council :-(
>>
> If your only reason to use Gentoo is because you can post to the main
> developer ML, and not because we try to provide a great distribution
> with lots of choice, a current toolchain and lots of customization,
> then you're likely using the wrong distribution.
>

If development of a quality distribution which meets
these goals requires thick skin, something is broken:

I've never seen anything from the gentoo foundation
which suggests that the gentoo developer mail list
should be considered a safe space for disparaging
remarks. Think of the messaging on this - for every
1 or 2 people who are willing to come forward to
address these concerns, there are likely "not zero"
who didn't want to deal with confrontation and the
risk that rudeness and hostile behavior would be
defended.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Mittwoch, 10. Januar 2018, 10:53:39 CET schrieb Michał Górny:
> 
> I guess you should have voiced your opinion back when discussion was
> taking place instead of being hostile *now* because the Council listened
> to what the developers requested.
> 
> And if you are curious, then I've been asked by multiple developers
> (and a few users) requesting the restriction, and I haven't been
> contacted by a single one who asked otherwise.

^ This. Same experience here.

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfri...@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[David Seifert]

On Wed, 2018-01-10 at 08:55 +0100, Lars Wendler wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:48:56 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers
> > > and
> > >   whitelisted additional participants.  
> > 
> > This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
> > openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a
> > rather
> > thick skin and result in high noise.  It's a price worth paying.
> > 
> > I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b)
> > consider
> > the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is just not
> > working.
> > 
> 
> Wow. I couldn't have said it better. 
> Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
> I wonder how many users we're going to loose on this one. Well done
> council :-(
> 

If your only reason to use Gentoo is because you can post to the main
developer ML, and not because we try to provide a great distribution
with lots of choice, a current toolchain and lots of customization,
then you're likely using the wrong distribution.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michał Górny]

W dniu wto, 09.01.2018 o godzinie 17∶08 -0800, użytkownik Matt Turner
napisał:
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel  
> wrote:
> > During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to implement
> > changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> > 
> > These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into
> > effect on 23 January 2018.
> > 
> > * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
> >   whitelisted additional participants.
> > * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
> >   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> > * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
> >   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
> > 
> > If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> > gentoo-dev,
> > - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to
> > forward your message,
> > - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
> > 
> > If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on
> > bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching
> > for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.
> 
> It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer acks
> one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly unlikely.
> Then what do we do?
> 

Then it becomes comrel business.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michał Górny]

W dniu śro, 10.01.2018 o godzinie 08∶48 +0300, użytkownik Eray Aslan
napisał:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> > * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
> >   whitelisted additional participants.
> 
> This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
> openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a rather
> thick skin and result in high noise.  It's a price worth paying.

Last I checked, Gentoo was a Linux distribution. However, some people
prefer to turn it into open discussion forum that has nothing to do with
making a distribution.

> 
> I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b) consider
> the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is just not
> working.

I guess you should have voiced your opinion back when discussion was
taking place instead of being hostile *now* because the Council listened
to what the developers requested.

And if you are curious, then I've been asked by multiple developers
(and a few users) requesting the restriction, and I haven't been
contacted by a single one who asked otherwise.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Lars Wendler]

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 08:48:56 +0300 Eray Aslan wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 10:20:56PM +0100, Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>>   whitelisted additional participants.  
>
>This is so contrary to what I and I thought Gentoo stands for:
>openness, transparency, inclusiveness even when these require a rather
>thick skin and result in high noise.  It's a price worth paying.
>
>I guess I should a) pay more attention to council elections b) consider
>the idea that the whole council thing as it stands now is just not
>working.
>

Wow. I couldn't have said it better. 
Seems we're turning into an elitist club or something... 
I wonder how many users we're going to loose on this one. Well done
council :-(

-- 
Lars Wendler
Gentoo package maintainer
GPG: 21CC CF02 4586 0A07 ED93  9F68 498F E765 960E 9B39


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 01/09/2018 07:37 PM, Philip Webb wrote:
> 
> I'm very sorry that Council approved this proposal
> & hope that it will soon see sense & rescind it.

In an effort to reduce noise on the gentoo-dev mailing list, Gentoo will
now require every user to send an email to the gentoo-dev mailing list
asking us to let him post to the gentoo-dev mailing list.

\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Matt Turner]

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Andreas K. Huettel  wrote:
> During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made to implement
> changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
>
> These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list, and will come into
> effect on 23 January 2018.
>
> * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>   whitelisted additional participants.
> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
>   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
>
> If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion on
> gentoo-dev,
> - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to
> forward your message,
> - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
>
> If, as a developer, you want to have someone whitelisted, please comment on
> bug 644070 [3]. Similar to Bugzilla editbugs permission, if you are vouching
> for a contributor you are expected to keep an eye on their activity.

It seems like the obvious way this fails is some Gentoo developer acks
one of the problem people. I don't think that's particularly unlikely.
Then what do we do?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Philip Webb]

180109 Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> During the last Gentoo council meeting, the decision was made
> to implement changes to the gentoo-dev mailing list [1].
> These changes affect only the gentoo-dev mailing list
> and will come into effect on 23 January 2018.
> 
> * Subscribing to the list and receiving list mail remains as it is now.
> * Posting to the list will only be possible to Gentoo developers and
>   whitelisted additional participants.
> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
> * Obviously, repeated off-topic posting as well as behaviour against the
>   Code of Conduct [2] will lead to revocation of the posting permission.
> 
> If, as a non-developer, you want to participate in a discussion
> on gentoo-dev, 
> - either reply directly to the author of a list mail and ask him/her to 
> forward your message,
> - or ask any Gentoo developer of your choice to get you whitelisted.
> [1] https://projects.gentoo.org/council/meeting-logs/20171210-summary.txt
> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

I'm very sorry that Council approved this proposal
& hope that it will soon see sense & rescind it.
As an ordinary user since 2003, I've subscribed to user + dev lists
& have rarely encountered bad behaviour on either :
it looks as if a sledge-hammer is being used to crack a nut.
I followed the recent discussion here, but didn't offer comment,
as there seemed to be little rationale or evidence behind the proposal
& I didn't expect Council to pay any attention.

That said, I would like to be able to offer my views on the dev list,
which is likely to be rarely & will always be polite,
as I have done occasionally during the past  15 years .

Is one of the devs willing to sponsor me ?

-- 
,,
SUPPORT ___//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT`-O--O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Alec Warner]

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Francesco Riosa  wrote:

>
> 2018-01-09 22:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas K. Huettel :
>
>> [...]
>
>
>
>> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
>>
>
> May I ask to some random developer to vouche for me (Francesco Riosa
> a.k.a. vivo)?
> I'd like to be able to seldom post here.
>

Yes


>
>  [...]
>
>> [1] https://projects.gentoo.org/council/meeting-logs/20171210-summary.txt
>> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct
>> [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070  (alias g-dev-whitelist)
>>
>> --
>> Andreas K. Hüttel
>> dilfri...@gentoo.org
>> Gentoo Linux developer
>> (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Upcoming posting restrictions on the gentoo-dev mailing list

[Francesco Riosa]

2018-01-09 22:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas K. Huettel :

> [...]



> * Whitelisting requires that one developer vouches for you. We intend this
>   to be as unbureaucratic as possible.
>

May I ask to some random developer to vouche for me (Francesco Riosa a.k.a.
vivo)?
I'd like to be able to seldom post here.

 [...]

> [1] https://projects.gentoo.org/council/meeting-logs/20171210-summary.txt
> [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct
> [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/644070  (alias g-dev-whitelist)
>
> --
> Andreas K. Hüttel
> dilfri...@gentoo.org
> Gentoo Linux developer
> (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel)