Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
"Walter Dnes" writes: > - I run Firefox > - I go to live365.com and log in > - I click on an icon, and Firefox starts up an audio player, and passes > it the appropriate URL. > - I start reading/writing emails, whilst enjoying music in my headphones > > The audio player needs to communicate with my email client because...? > So that the email program can add a 'tag' in the signature of outgoing emails so that the recipients know what music you were listening to when composing the email :) I have not seen this in email clients, but would not be surprised if some did, but have seen this in IM programs - both Pidgin and kopete have options/plugins to show the music you are listening to in your status.
Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are just a stupid ass. It is not slow. You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted). a) Nepomuk is not slow and does not hog resources b) dbusis not slow and does not hog resources c) hal is not slow and does not hog resources d) ... is not slow and does not hog resources etc, etc, etc. Throw in enough "little stuff" and it eventually adds up. We seem to be talking past each other. It's like the pay-TV channel you don't want being bundled in basic cable. They may claim that they "only cost a dollar a month, and surely you can afford that". Throw in 100 such channels, and your cable bill gets ridiculous, and people start demanding a-la-carte. The same principle applies here. I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies, e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps. Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine, kplayer, etc. What got me started in this thread was the fact that what had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much demands dbus. dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e. ICEWM. I went into a Konsole, adjusted my fonts to just big enough I could even see them, typed in top and guess what, I couldn't even get dbus or hal to show up. Udev was way down at the very bottom and it shows it is "sleeping" at the moment. The list was showing 39 lines of running processes. Yep, udev was at 39. The others don't even make the top 40. Now those are a resource hog. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Friday 12 February 2010 21:23:41 pk wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a broweser
> > or mail app that they are offline?
>
> I don't have a network connection manager and I don't need that function
> in a browser, mail client or any other app.
>
> > And don't start with sockets. That will result in a nightmare. dbus is a
> > clean
>
> I've been using computers way before D-Bus came into action and I never
> suffered from nightmares... ;-)
>
> To me D-Bus is a bit like this:
> Programmer1: (waves hands in the air) Oh, oh I know, let's invent a new
> protocol that lets applications talk to each other. Way cool!
> Programmer2: Oh yeah, it will simplify the situation so much. Let's do it!
> Pragmatic guy: So, what are these apps going to talk about?
> Programmer1 & 2 (in unison): Shut up! Don't spoil our fun by asking such
> stupid questions!
>
> But, this discussion is quite pointless as I see it since the people who
> program these apps (like programmer1 & 2 above) are the ones who gets to
> choose and most people just doesn't bother with the details; they just
> throw more ("bigger", "better", "faster") hardware in an ever-evolving
> race. Far from the unix philosophy of KISS. That's at least the way I
> see it...
Is it really so hard to understand that dbus replaces functionality THAT YOU
ALREADY HAVE MULTIPLE TIMES?
dbus is a net gain - it takes multiple implementations of similar goals and
puts them in one place, reducing the duplication.
If you haven't already spotted it, this is the same process of logic that lead
to dynamic libraries. Do you consider dynamic libraries to be a good thing?
--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
On Saturday 13 February 2010 00:52:32 Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:21:18 -0800, Kyle Bader wrote: > > >> Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? > > > > > > tar up /etc. > > > > Make sure the tar can extract on another system. Backups that haven't > > been tested are not backups! :D > > /etc/ is CONFIG_PROTECTed, so emerge -e world will do just what the OP > wants, rebuild everything without touching the configs. > > Of course, a backup of /etc is always a handy thing to have around anyway, For this case, it's probably easier to just tar /etc/ and untar it back later. The OP then doesn't have to deal with 600+ conf-update complaints -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
On Friday 12 February 2010 21:55:29 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo! > > As reported in other threads, my new PC had a broken RAM stick in it. > As a result, an unknown proportion of installed binaries are flaky. One > non-functioning binary is probably GCC. > > What I'd like to do is reinstall every binary, yet without erasing any > configuration info, whose creation was so arduous. > > Where does portage keep it's list of installed packages? What do I have > to do to persuade portage it has _no_ installed packages before doing > 'rm -rf *' in /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin? > > Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? First get a working compiler installed. There are many ways, here's what I think is the easiest: Boot into a Gentoo LiveCD, chroot into your install, and emerge -k the gcc tarball on the CD. Reboot into the actual install, synce the portage tree and emerge -e world That will rebuild everything, including gcc. The paranoid might want to emerge gcc itself on it's own first so that rebuilding world is done with the same gcc version as what it will become (gcc is not built first when you rebuild world, all sort of toolchain tools and parsers are earlier in the list). Personally, I don't do that - there is an actual chance that using an old compiler to build a new compiler may lead to incompatibility issues, but the risk is extremely small and rare, and it's never bitten me. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Sorry about the delay replying. I'm having major problems upgrading to kernel 2.6.31-r6. On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 04:53:08PM +, Neil Bothwick wrote > On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:31:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: > > XMMS followed > > the original Unix philosophy... it did one thing did it right, namely > > playing audio. > > Yes, and if you have a number of programs, each doing one job only, > they need to be able to communicate in order to do the larger > job. Imagine a building site where the bricklayers, plasterers, > electricians an plumbers didn't talk to each other or the project > manager. - I run Firefox - I go to live365.com and log in - I click on an icon, and Firefox starts up an audio player, and passes it the appropriate URL. - I start reading/writing emails, whilst enjoying music in my headphones The audio player needs to communicate with my email client because...? > Neil Bothwick > > If it isn't broken, I can fix it. No comment. -- Walter Dnes
Re: [gentoo-user] Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote > You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you > are just a stupid ass. > > It is not slow. > > You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that > it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted). a) Nepomuk is not slow and does not hog resources b) dbusis not slow and does not hog resources c) hal is not slow and does not hog resources d) ... is not slow and does not hog resources etc, etc, etc. Throw in enough "little stuff" and it eventually adds up. We seem to be talking past each other. It's like the pay-TV channel you don't want being bundled in basic cable. They may claim that they "only cost a dollar a month, and surely you can afford that". Throw in 100 such channels, and your cable bill gets ridiculous, and people start demanding a-la-carte. The same principle applies here. I agree with the concept that people who don't want KDE dependancies, e.g. dbus, shouldn't use KDE apps. Therefore, I avoid amarok, kaffeine, kplayer, etc. What got me started in this thread was the fact that what had been a formerly-standalone media player (audacious), now pretty much demands dbus. dbus would be "bundled in" to my "basic service", i.e. ICEWM. -- Walter Dnes
Re: [gentoo-user] Two problems with xdg-open
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 19:23 -0500, Willie Wong wrote: > Hi list: > > What exactly is xdg-open and how to I configure it to do what I want? > > The question came up because I am using jabref, a Java based bibtex > management system. On my home machine, when I tried to open a PDF > file, java throws a file-not-found error on "xdg-open". But I have > xdg-utils installed, and xdg-open is found in /usr/bin. Right now I > have gotten around the problem by configuring jabref explicitly to use > xpdf to load PDF files. For all I know this is probably a > environment/PATH issue in the load script for jabref. > > I took a look at the man page for xdg-open, and find the concept > intriguing. The idea seems useful. But how does one go about "setting > the default" programs for various documents? > > If I try to issue "xdg-open file.pdf", it tries to load firefox, which > then asks me where to save the pdf file. This is rather obviously not > the desired behaviour. Maybe I'm blind or something, but I don't see > anything in the man page about how it determines what is the user's > preferred application. It's a simple bash script. There's no magic. Take a peek at it. -a
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: in-memory database -> SOLVED
Hi all, Thank a lot for your advices. I will try both mysql and sqlite to see which one is better for our purpose. Have a nice weekend, Hung On 02/12/10 10:56, Doug O'Neal wrote: > On 02/11/2010 12:27 PM, Hung Dang wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I am looking for an open source in-memory database for data mining >> purpose. I have tried to look into /usr/portage/dev-db/ and have not >> found any in-memory package. Any suggestion? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Hung > > mysql has a `memory' table engine. > > Doug > >
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Samstag 13 Februar 2010, walt wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > Maybe increasing voltages a bit (0.05 to 0.1V) will help you. It did for > > me with one certain Asrock board. > > This is the first I've heard of adjustable voltages. Where/how do you make > the adjustment? Bios
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Maybe increasing voltages a bit (0.05 to 0.1V) will help you. It did for me with one certain Asrock board. This is the first I've heard of adjustable voltages. Where/how do you make the adjustment? Mine is in the BIOS. Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Re: New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > Maybe increasing voltages a bit (0.05 to 0.1V) will help you. It did for me > with one certain Asrock board. This is the first I've heard of adjustable voltages. Where/how do you make the adjustment?
[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
Zeerak Waseem wrote: > I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-) Ah, good. Let me give you some free advice, well in advance. When it comes time to pick people for your thesis committee -- pick ones who love to argue. I think it may save you some pain later.
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 09:15:59PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > > as browser - or file manager. And to load the right kpart. Oh - and that > > > loading of kparts? The messages are sent by dbus. > > > > I don't have konqueror nor do I use KDE/Gnome. And never will. > then why do you even care about dbus? I don't use KDE/Gnome. But I care about dbus because my (new) preferred network manager--wicd--requires it. Not that I mind having it: in fact I find it possibly a useful piece of software. But I just want to be show that it is possible for someone who doesn't even use X to be affected by dbus. Cheers, W -- Willie W. Wong ww...@math.princeton.edu Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire et vice versa ~~~ I. Newton
[gentoo-user] Two problems with xdg-open
Hi list: What exactly is xdg-open and how to I configure it to do what I want? The question came up because I am using jabref, a Java based bibtex management system. On my home machine, when I tried to open a PDF file, java throws a file-not-found error on "xdg-open". But I have xdg-utils installed, and xdg-open is found in /usr/bin. Right now I have gotten around the problem by configuring jabref explicitly to use xpdf to load PDF files. For all I know this is probably a environment/PATH issue in the load script for jabref. I took a look at the man page for xdg-open, and find the concept intriguing. The idea seems useful. But how does one go about "setting the default" programs for various documents? If I try to issue "xdg-open file.pdf", it tries to load firefox, which then asks me where to save the pdf file. This is rather obviously not the desired behaviour. Maybe I'm blind or something, but I don't see anything in the man page about how it determines what is the user's preferred application. Cheers, W -- Willie W. Wong ww...@math.princeton.edu Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire et vice versa ~~~ I. Newton
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
"equery check package" compares current with the as installed checksum (or something like that!) for the packages files. emerge -ep world > a edit "a" to add "equery check " before each package name run "sh a > b" and got hrough the list in b to see whats broke - lots of debris - config files etc will show as failing a checksum, so ignore them. Also ".a" libraries may not be broke, but a side effect of lafilefixer - need to check that one. prelink apparently doesnt affect (or maybe updates) the checksum. I am sure someone probably has a utility able to automate the process - anyone? BillK e.g., myth2 ~ # equery check gcc [ Checking sys-devel/gcc-4.3.4 ] !!! /usr/libexec/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/f951 has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/32/libgfortran.so.3.0.0 has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/libgcc.a has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/libmudflapth.so.0.0.0 has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/locale/tr/LC_MESSAGES/gcc.mo has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/32/libgfortran.a has incorrect md5sum !!! /etc/env.d/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-4.3.4 has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/include/g ++-v4/bits/boost_concept_check.h has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/libexec/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/tree1 has incorrect md5sum !!! /usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/locale/es/LC_MESSAGES/gcc.mo has incorrect md5sum * 944 out of 954 files good myth2 ~ # Yeah my gcc is broke and wont rebuild :( On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 19:55 +, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo! > > As reported in other threads, my new PC had a broken RAM stick in it. > As a result, an unknown proportion of installed binaries are flaky. One > non-functioning binary is probably GCC. > > What I'd like to do is reinstall every binary, yet without erasing any > configuration info, whose creation was so arduous. > > Where does portage keep it's list of installed packages? What do I have > to do to persuade portage it has _no_ installed packages before doing > 'rm -rf *' in /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin? > > Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? > -- William Kenworthy Home in Perth!
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86. Got it!
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Hi, Dale, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:27:01AM -0600, Dale wrote: Where the error is could depend on a single transistor that is maybe not as sensitive as the others. It's sort of like a chain. It's only as strong as its weakest link. It could be that whatever is going wrong could be right on the edge of others not working either. The one that is failing is just the first if it is a power problem. That's where the power problem thought comes from. Have you had a look here for well tested power supplies? That said, it could be a lot of things. It could be a bad chip on the mobo, a piece of dust in the wrong place or any number of other things. It's finding it that is so much fun. The shop who sold me the components suggested running memtest86 with just one RAM stick at a time. It turns out, one was duff, the other's just fine. (It went ~20 minutes on memtest86 without any errors.) So it looks like I'll be running on 2Gb only until I get a replacement for the broken one. Again, lots of things it could be. So far, everybody has replied with good ideas to check. There are lots of them. Many thanks to all who helped me track this one down! Dale :-) :-) There you go. Most likely one little transistor that went belly up. Considering there are millions of those little devils on there, no surprise at all. Glad you got it sorted out and that is better than a lot of other options. Since it is new, I hope you have a good warranty that will make it a cheap fix as well. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:51:01 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick >> >> wrote: >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. >> > >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, >> >> KMail >> >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, >> >> not >> >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. >> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things >> that >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is >> this the correct term?) dependencies. >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an >> optional >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon >> probably >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) >> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some >> don't >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus >> becomes >> bloat. > > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does > not > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing > manager But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing aware desktop solution. Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it. If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing. I have tried it, briefly so I won't claim to know all the merits, but it didn't seem to be a huge addition to my life. To each his own however :-) I don't know, I just considered flexibility and as much being as far independent of anything that isn't strictly related to the core functions of the application. But again, this is just my take, and the entire development with KDE is interesting to follow and I'll surely be following this development with a great interest. And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? what are you even talking about? Well what I mean is that Semantic-desktop is a part of the KDE DE, right? So anyone not using the fullblown DE, but simply a few apps is being forced to install semantic-desktop with various KDE apps. And sure you can use whatever WM in KDE, but that was never really the point, at least not how I intended it, pardons if I was too vague about it. My point was if you only run a window manager and not any DE at all. Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) no, I have the feeling that you are trolling. Oh, well I'm very sorry that you get that impression, I am actually quite interested in some ar
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:23:41 +0100, pk wrote: > To me D-Bus is a bit like this: > Programmer1: (waves hands in the air) Oh, oh I know, let's invent a new > protocol that lets applications talk to each other. Way cool! Note that they are inventing a new protocol, not a new idea. > Programmer2: Oh yeah, it will simplify the situation so much. Let's do > it! Pragmatic guy: So, what are these apps going to talk about? The same as they always talked about, but now they have a common protocol that can work with everything. D-Bus is not so much a new concept but a logical rationalisation of previous, disparate implementations. -- Neil Bothwick Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Cron, bash, and java interacting badly?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:57:09 -0500, Walt Rarus wrote: > BTW, I love the quotations following your sig. Speaking of "source", > are you willing to reveal the source of these beauties? Yes, it's a place called "the Internet" ;-) -- Neil Bothwick CPU: (n.) acronym for Central Purging Unit. A device which discards or distorts data sent to it, sometimes returning more data and sometimes merely over-heating. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:21:18 -0800, Kyle Bader wrote: > >> Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? > > > > tar up /etc. > > Make sure the tar can extract on another system. Backups that haven't > been tested are not backups! :D /etc/ is CONFIG_PROTECTed, so emerge -e world will do just what the OP wants, rebuild everything without touching the configs. Of course, a backup of /etc is always a handy thing to have around anyway, -- Neil Bothwick In the begining, there was nothing. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, pk wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > well, just look at all those ubuntu users. Just for starters. > > Hm. And those ubuntu users have a choice? For the record, most people > using wireless anywhere are using OS's from Redmond or Cupertino > (Apple). They don't care about D-Bus either... > I would like to point out that this is 'gentoo user' not 'talk about any os' or 'windows support'. You might be surprised to learn that gentoo is a linux distribution. So why do you bring windows or apple up? > > yes, it has. There is no question that dbus is a needed and good > > solution. > > I do have that "question". All I want to say is that this is a matter of > opinion. It has nothing to do with solving a real-world problem; I guess > you will disagree with me on this as well but you see a problem where I > don't... the problems, dbus solves, have been discussed to death already. Maybe you should read Alan McKinnons mails again. You seem to have missed a lot. Neil Bothwick's mails are also something you should consider.
Re: [gentoo-user] Cron, bash, and java interacting badly?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: > > "source /etc/profile" at the top of the script often works. > @Neil: Well, that does the trick! But I don't understand why. In my initial post I withheld information in order to be sure the focus wouldn't be on the Clojure program itself. I withheld the fact that my failing program was only a slight variation on 4 other programs which all always worked both via cron and the commandline. IOW, the restricted cron environment doesn't impact the other 4 programs. Well, I'll happily put the source statement in and at some point try to figure out what it adds to avoid the crash. BTW, I love the quotations following your sig. Speaking of "source", are you willing to reveal the source of these beauties? @Alex, Alan: Thanks for your contributions. I learned a few things as a result.
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > well, just look at all those ubuntu users. Just for starters. Hm. And those ubuntu users have a choice? For the record, most people using wireless anywhere are using OS's from Redmond or Cupertino (Apple). They don't care about D-Bus either... > yes, it has. There is no question that dbus is a needed and good solution. I do have that "question". All I want to say is that this is a matter of opinion. It has nothing to do with solving a real-world problem; I guess you will disagree with me on this as well but you see a problem where I don't... So in all silliness: "And now for something completely different"... http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode07.htm Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
>> Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? > > tar up /etc. Make sure the tar can extract on another system. Backups that haven't been tested are not backups! :D -- Kyle
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, pk wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > besides being not really usefull anymore? Are you sure you have lpr? > > Which ones do you have? And do you have it configured for the right > > printers? What if you don't have lpr but cups? > > Of course I use cups, don't be silly. Of course built without D-Bus > support. > > > you not. Millions of people do. > > And have you counted these millions? Or are you claiming the people who > don't care about this functionality too? well, just look at all those ubuntu users. Just for starters. > > > and because of that dbus is a great solution. Single solution for a wide > > range of problems. Which is pretty much anti-bloat. > > Great solution to what? What problems? > > This discussion has already passed the silly stage... > > Best regards > > Peter K yes, it has. There is no question that dbus is a needed and good solution. Only some people keep this alive.
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, pk wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > You obviously don't know what you are talking about. > > And you obviously do? > > > If you start konqueror - for example, it is dbus telling konqueror to > > start > > > > as browser - or file manager. And to load the right kpart. Oh - and that > > loading of kparts? The messages are sent by dbus. > > I don't have konqueror nor do I use KDE/Gnome. And never will. > > Best regards > > Peter K then why do you even care about dbus?
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > besides being not really usefull anymore? Are you sure you have lpr? Which > ones do you have? And do you have it configured for the right printers? What > if > you don't have lpr but cups? Of course I use cups, don't be silly. Of course built without D-Bus support. > you not. Millions of people do. And have you counted these millions? Or are you claiming the people who don't care about this functionality too? > and because of that dbus is a great solution. Single solution for a wide > range > of problems. Which is pretty much anti-bloat. Great solution to what? What problems? This discussion has already passed the silly stage... Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > You obviously don't know what you are talking about. And you obviously do? > If you start konqueror - for example, it is dbus telling konqueror to start > as browser - or file manager. And to load the right kpart. Oh - and that > loading of kparts? The messages are sent by dbus. I don't have konqueror nor do I use KDE/Gnome. And never will. Best regards Peter K
[gentoo-user] Re: Ramifications of memtest86. Got it!
On 02/12/2010 09:25 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: Hi, Dale, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:27:01AM -0600, Dale wrote: Where the error is could depend on a single transistor that is maybe not as sensitive as the others. It's sort of like a chain. It's only as strong as its weakest link. It could be that whatever is going wrong could be right on the edge of others not working either. The one that is failing is just the first if it is a power problem. That's where the power problem thought comes from. Have you had a look here for well tested power supplies? That said, it could be a lot of things. It could be a bad chip on the mobo, a piece of dust in the wrong place or any number of other things. It's finding it that is so much fun. The shop who sold me the components suggested running memtest86 with just one RAM stick at a time. The correct procedure is to test just one stick in at least two different slots. This is to ensure that it's not the mainboard at fault (like a faulty RAM slot.)
Re: [gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo! > > As reported in other threads, my new PC had a broken RAM stick in it. > As a result, an unknown proportion of installed binaries are flaky. One > non-functioning binary is probably GCC. > > What I'd like to do is reinstall every binary, yet without erasing any > configuration info, whose creation was so arduous. > > Where does portage keep it's list of installed packages? /var/db/pkg > What do I have > to do to persuade portage it has _no_ installed packages before doing > 'rm -rf *' in /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin? --emtpytree > > Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? tar up /etc.
[gentoo-user] How should I clean up my broken system?
Hi, Gentoo! As reported in other threads, my new PC had a broken RAM stick in it. As a result, an unknown proportion of installed binaries are flaky. One non-functioning binary is probably GCC. What I'd like to do is reinstall every binary, yet without erasing any configuration info, whose creation was so arduous. Where does portage keep it's list of installed packages? What do I have to do to persuade portage it has _no_ installed packages before doing 'rm -rf *' in /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin? Has anybody any other tips to offer me for this operation? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, pk wrote: > Alan McKinnon wrote: > > 1. Say stuff it and build a print server into your app. We stopped doing > > that when DOS fell out of fashion. > > 2. Support all possible print systems. lpr anyone? > > 3. Or just use IPC and let dedicated print middleware deal with it. > > What's wrong with lpr? > besides being not really usefull anymore? Are you sure you have lpr? Which ones do you have? And do you have it configured for the right printers? What if you don't have lpr but cups? > > Multimedia buttons. One of the most confounding things on modern hardware > > are multimedia buttons. Volume is easy - make it adjust the sound > > server. Or you could use keybindings and have the wm do it, or you could > > send the keypresses to the configured audio app. And which one is that? > > Many apps do sound, which one will get the buttom focus? > > Don't have them, don't use them. I don't use wireless on trains > either... and never will (unless someone puts a gun to my head). you not. Millions of people do. > > > Even minimal WMs have many more such examples. Removing a sane IPC method > > that can be used everywhere instead of multiple implementations of > > similar functionality makes about as much engineering sense as claiming > > you don't need pipes in a shell. > > But D-Bus is much more than (simple) IPC. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-process_communication and because of that dbus is a great solution. Single solution for a wide range of problems. Which is pretty much anti-bloat.
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Alan McKinnon wrote: > 1. Say stuff it and build a print server into your app. We stopped doing that > when DOS fell out of fashion. > 2. Support all possible print systems. lpr anyone? > 3. Or just use IPC and let dedicated print middleware deal with it. What's wrong with lpr? > Multimedia buttons. One of the most confounding things on modern hardware are > multimedia buttons. Volume is easy - make it adjust the sound server. Or you > could use keybindings and have the wm do it, or you could send the keypresses > to the configured audio app. And which one is that? Many apps do sound, which > one will get the buttom focus? Don't have them, don't use them. I don't use wireless on trains either... and never will (unless someone puts a gun to my head). > Even minimal WMs have many more such examples. Removing a sane IPC method > that > can be used everywhere instead of multiple implementations of similar > functionality makes about as much engineering sense as claiming you don't > need > pipes in a shell. But D-Bus is much more than (simple) IPC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-process_communication Oh well... Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, pk wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > > so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a broweser > > or mail app that they are offline? > > I don't have a network connection manager and I don't need that function > in a browser, mail client or any other app. > > > And don't start with sockets. That will result in a nightmare. dbus is a > > clean > > I've been using computers way before D-Bus came into action and I never > suffered from nightmares... ;-) no, but you also head much less functionality. > > To me D-Bus is a bit like this: > Programmer1: (waves hands in the air) Oh, oh I know, let's invent a new > protocol that lets applications talk to each other. Way cool! > Programmer2: Oh yeah, it will simplify the situation so much. Let's do it! > Pragmatic guy: So, what are these apps going to talk about? > Programmer1 & 2 (in unison): Shut up! Don't spoil our fun by asking such > stupid questions! > and that is stupid. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. If you start konqueror - for example, it is dbus telling konqueror to start as browser - or file manager. And to load the right kpart. Oh - and that loading of kparts? The messages are sent by dbus.
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a broweser or
> mail app that they are offline?
I don't have a network connection manager and I don't need that function
in a browser, mail client or any other app.
> And don't start with sockets. That will result in a nightmare. dbus is a
> clean
I've been using computers way before D-Bus came into action and I never
suffered from nightmares... ;-)
To me D-Bus is a bit like this:
Programmer1: (waves hands in the air) Oh, oh I know, let's invent a new
protocol that lets applications talk to each other. Way cool!
Programmer2: Oh yeah, it will simplify the situation so much. Let's do it!
Pragmatic guy: So, what are these apps going to talk about?
Programmer1 & 2 (in unison): Shut up! Don't spoil our fun by asking such
stupid questions!
But, this discussion is quite pointless as I see it since the people who
program these apps (like programmer1 & 2 above) are the ones who gets to
choose and most people just doesn't bother with the details; they just
throw more ("bigger", "better", "faster") hardware in an ever-evolving
race. Far from the unix philosophy of KISS. That's at least the way I
see it...
Best regards
Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86. Got it!
Hi, Dale, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 08:27:01AM -0600, Dale wrote: > Where the error is could depend on a single transistor that is maybe > not as sensitive as the others. It's sort of like a chain. It's only > as strong as its weakest link. It could be that whatever is going > wrong could be right on the edge of others not working either. The > one that is failing is just the first if it is a power problem. > That's where the power problem thought comes from. Have you had a > look here for well tested power supplies? > That said, it could be a lot of things. It could be a bad chip on the > mobo, a piece of dust in the wrong place or any number of other things. > It's finding it that is so much fun. The shop who sold me the components suggested running memtest86 with just one RAM stick at a time. It turns out, one was duff, the other's just fine. (It went ~20 minutes on memtest86 without any errors.) So it looks like I'll be running on 2Gb only until I get a replacement for the broken one. > Again, lots of things it could be. So far, everybody has replied with > good ideas to check. There are lots of them. Many thanks to all who helped me track this one down! > Dale > :-) :-) -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
Hi, Volker, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 01:56:48PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: > you can try upping the voltage of the ram by 0.05V. I had a stick that > threw errors unless I gave it a bit more. After that the system was > stable and none of the memtesting apps found any errors. Tried that with the voltage everywhere from 1.5v to 1.6v in 0.02v steps. It didn't help. It turns out, one of the RAM sticks was kaputt. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
[gentoo-user] Re: in-memory database
On 02/11/2010 12:27 PM, Hung Dang wrote: Hi all, I am looking for an open source in-memory database for data mining purpose. I have tried to look into /usr/portage/dev-db/ and have not found any in-memory package. Any suggestion? Thanks in advance Hung mysql has a `memory' table engine. Doug
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On 2/12/2010 10:14 AM, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. No, it's not a soft dependency. Yes, it's a hard dependency. Yes, it's a good idea. Yes, it's necessary. No, no amount of pointless whining about "bloat" is going to change things. If you want to use KDE-4 applications, you use semantic desktop. If you don't want to use semantic desktop, you don't use KDE-4 applications. Yay for choice. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann > > wrote: > > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick > >> > >> wrote: > >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't > >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems > >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > >> > > >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, > >> > >> KMail > >> > >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, > >> > >> not > >> > >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. > >> > >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. > >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things > >> that > >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is > >> this the correct term?) dependencies. > >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an > >> optional > >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all > >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I > >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon > >> probably > >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they > >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) > >> > >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some > >> don't > >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to > >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't > >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's > >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not > >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus > >> becomes > >> bloat. > > > > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does > > not > > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- > > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing > > manager > > But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft > dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft > dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to > (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of > whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have > symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing aware desktop solution. Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it. If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing. > And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but > mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice. > Be > it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated > part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? what are you even talking about? > Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I > find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're > being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it > was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad > because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so > please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) no, I have the feeling that you are trolling. But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That niche is filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile of apps, you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment. KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound system. KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, etc. KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate. KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different databases and concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more than just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly. When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why don't you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway? You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley than keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder with gigabytes of data than
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Helmut Jarausch wrote: > On 12 Feb, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > Just one more reason. > > Have you got more than 4 Gb RAM installed? > > If yes, you might have to reduce memory speed. > Some CPUs (among them AMD Phenom) have difficulties > at the specified RAM speed if more than 1 memory bank is > installed. > I have been burnt by that several times. > Helmut. no, not entirely true. There is a problem with Phenoms and DDR2 1066 when for modules are installed. You can get that configuration stable with an high quality board and some voltage tricks. If you have problems at lower speed and 4banks, you have a crappy mainboard. Maybe increasing voltages a bit (0.05 to 0.1V) will help you. It did for me with one certain Asrock board.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
- Original Message > From: Zeerak Waseem > But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, > but > in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like > previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I > mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly > necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. So you are complaining why? Why even install KMail if you are not going to use it? > And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly > in > considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be it icewm, jwm, > openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE > desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? The KDE devs in general (applications, etc.) with the exception of KOffice, and possibly Amarok, are all targeting their development as an integrated DE meant to be run under KDE. They have been pretty clear as well that they do not intend the applications to be run stand-alone under other DE's (even Gnome) - that's not officially supported. And this has been especially clear for KDE4 (see asiego's blog for example). > Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I > find > it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being > forced. > And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is > pretty > much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad because it's new". I'd like > to > find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) > (I > am asking for it after all ;)) If you disagree with the devs lack of support for things beyond their requirements, or things that they explicitly have stated they do not support that is your issue. The fact is the devs are building the application for the target environment - KDE4 - and no other DE (e.g. gnome, icewm, jwm, openbox, etc.). So expect that dependencies will match what would be expected in that environment if you want to use the application. Anything else is unreasonable of you as a user. A simple analogy: The Chevy Malibu part not fitting in the Ford F150 vehicle. Sure, they may perform the same function in the end, but they were designed for completely different vehicles. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:46:57 +0100, BRM wrote: - Original Message From: Zeerak Waseem On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency. It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level. The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything. Right, but then when the DE isn't a DE, but a window manager, a minimal one, then it's kind of a strange for a function to be forced outside of the specific DE. Well it seems strange to me anyway. In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Question: are you a software developer? Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality than it is to litter the codebase with "if (symanticDesktopEnabled)..." code. An aspiring one, yes. And it probably easier to just make it a hard dep, however if the quality of their application for anyone -not- using kde. It's sensible for it being set if you have kde, but if you don't have kde it just seems very out of place. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot. Ben I hadn't considered that particular thing, but yes, in a sense you're right. I mean there is difference for a compiler and a mail app, with gcc you can compile for another system so the it supports things your processor doesn't support doesn't necessarily mean that you won't need the support, with a mail app you can... But essentially, if you know you'll never need to compile for another processor, then yes I'd consider it bloat. -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Helmut Jarausch wrote: > On 12 Feb, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> Hi, Gentoo, >> >> My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. >> > > Just one more reason. > > Have you got more than 4 Gb RAM installed? > > If yes, you might have to reduce memory speed. > Some CPUs (among them AMD Phenom) have difficulties > at the specified RAM speed if more than 1 memory bank is > installed. > I have been burnt by that several times. > Helmut. I had exactly the situation you described. 4 GB of RAM worked great at 800MHz but when I increased to 8 GB I had to lower speed to something like 533 MHz otherwise system was very unstable. In my case Intel Core 2 Duo E6600. I contacted the RAM manufacturer and this was their recommendation as well.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) -- Zeerak
[gentoo-user] SIOCSIFMTU: Invalid argument
Hello, I am getting a SIOCSIFMTU: Invalid argument [ok] message when re/starting eth0. I am wondering about that. The router's MTU is set at 1500. Looking at the /etc/init.d/net.eth0 it seems the inteface metrics should be calculated automatically. Any ideas about where to look for the reason for the message? Additional info below. Thanks, -- Valmor -> /etc/init.d/net.eth0 restart * Caching service dependencies ...[ ok ] * Unmounting network filesystems ...[ ok ] * Stopping eth0 * Bringing down eth0 * Stopping dhcpcd on eth0 ...[ ok ] * Shutting down eth0 ... [ ok ] * Starting eth0 * Bringing up eth0 * dhcp * Running dhcpcd ... eth0: dhcpcd 4.0.15 starting eth0: waiting for carrier eth0: carrier acquired eth0: broadcasting for a lease eth0: offered 192.168.0.200 from 192.168.0.1 eth0: acknowledged 192.168.0.200 from 192.168.0.1 eth0: checking 192.168.0.200 is available on attached networks dnseth0: leased 192.168.0.200 for 259200 seconds SIOCSIFMTU: Invalid argument [ ok ] * eth0 received address 192.168.0.200/24 * Mounting network filesystems ...[ ok ] -> cat /proc/net/route Iface Destination Gateway Flags RefCnt Use Metric MaskMTU Window IRTT eth0A8C000010 0 0 00FF0 0 0 lo 007F00010 0 0 00FF0 0 0 eth00100A8C000030 0 0 0 0 0
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
- Original Message > From: Zeerak Waseem > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't > >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems > >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail > > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not > > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. > Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. > But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that > aren't > -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the > correct term?) dependencies. > Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional > dep. > It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files > on > the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand > correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users > as > well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. > Much like most other bits of software :-) Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency. It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level. The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything. > In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Question: are you a software developer? Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality than it is to litter the codebase with "if (symanticDesktopEnabled)..." code. > Some don't mind > the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the > function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be > the > slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature > forced > on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those > kde-users > that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: Hi, Dale, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 06:43:46AM -0600, Dale wrote: chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:22:21AM +, Alan Mackenzie wrote: When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions of failures in b11 of 32 bit words. I'll try unplugging and replugging these. No help. :-( No matter how I plug in the RAM (4 combinations of 2 sticks into 2 pairs of slots) it is always b11 which fails and always at an address ending in (hex) 0 or 8. How is this DDR3 Ram organised? Is each stick 64 bits wide, or are they 32 bits wide, being accessed by the motherboard pairwisely? If the latter, I would have exected the failure to move to address 4 and C when I swap the two sticks. Am I being prematurely pessimistic in thinking the motherboard might be the fault? Sounds to me like the mobo may have issues. If swapping the ram around doesn't move the error, then the chips on the mobo that connect to the ram may be bad. So the RAM sticks are each 32 bits wide, then? I run 32 bit here. Mine doesn't care where they are but yours may be different. I would still rule out power issues if you can. A bad power supply, or a weak one, can cause some pretty weird problems. The power supply is brand new, from a reputable manufacturer. Surely if the power supply were dicky, I'd get RAM errors in some other bit position inside a 32-bit word. Or maybe the RAM into which memtest86 is loaded is also faulty. ;-( Dale Where the error is could depend on a single transistor that is maybe not as sensitive as the others. It's sort of like a chain. It's only as strong as its weakest link. It could be that whatever is going wrong could be right on the edge of others not working either. The one that is failing is just the first if it is a power problem. That's where the power problem thought comes from. Have you had a look here for well tested power supplies? http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458204 That said, it could be a lot of things. It could be a bad chip on the mobo, a piece of dust in the wrong place or any number of other things. It's finding it that is so much fun. I would also check to see if it is a heat related issue. If it runs fine cold, that could point to the "dust" theory since it is consistently broke. If it only does it when hot, then that could be a chip problem. Again, lots of things it could be. So far, everybody has replied with good ideas to check. There are lots of them. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86
Hi, Dale, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 06:43:46AM -0600, Dale wrote: > chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: > >On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:22:21AM +, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >>When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions > >>of failures in b11 of 32 bit words. > >>I'll try unplugging and replugging these. > >No help. :-( > >No matter how I plug in the RAM (4 combinations of 2 sticks into 2 > >pairs of slots) it is always b11 which fails and always at an address > >ending in (hex) 0 or 8. > >How is this DDR3 Ram organised? Is each stick 64 bits wide, or are > >they 32 bits wide, being accessed by the motherboard pairwisely? If > >the latter, I would have exected the failure to move to address 4 > >and C when I swap the two sticks. Am I being prematurely > >pessimistic in thinking the motherboard might be the fault? > Sounds to me like the mobo may have issues. If swapping the ram around > doesn't move the error, then the chips on the mobo that connect to the > ram may be bad. So the RAM sticks are each 32 bits wide, then? > I would still rule out power issues if you can. A bad power supply, or > a weak one, can cause some pretty weird problems. The power supply is brand new, from a reputable manufacturer. Surely if the power supply were dicky, I'd get RAM errors in some other bit position inside a 32-bit word. Or maybe the RAM into which memtest86 is loaded is also faulty. ;-( > Hmmm, I would also try putting in two sticks, then running the test and > seeing what that says. If it still errors, try the other two sticks. > If it still fails in the same place, see if you can put the sticks in > the other two slots. Some mobos don't care what slot you have them in. > May want to refer to the manual on that. Sorry, I wasn't clear about that. I have just two RAM sticks for a total of 4Gb, but there are two pairs of slots on the motherboard. The manual says "put the sticks for preference in the orange slots for 'better overclocking capability'". But they (almost) work just as well (badly) in the black slots. > Let's hope for something simple and cheap. ;-) Oh, yes! > Dale > :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86
On Friday 12 February 2010 14:43:30 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > failures in b11 of 32 bit words. > > > > I'll try unplugging and replugging these. > > No help. :-( > > No matter how I plug in the RAM (4 combinations of 2 sticks into 2 pairs > of slots) it is always b11 which fails and always at an address ending > in (hex) 0 or 8. > > How is this DDR3 Ram organised? Is each stick 64 bits wide, or are they > 32 bits wide, being accessed by the motherboard pairwisely? If the > latter, I would have exected the failure to move to address 4 and > C when I swap the two sticks. Am I being prematurely pessimistic in > thinking the motherboard might be the fault? I strongly suspect a motherboard fault too. What you are describing sounds like an address decoding fault. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick > > wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't > >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems > >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > > > > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail > > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not > > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. > > Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. > But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that > aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is > this the correct term?) dependencies. > Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional > dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all > the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I > understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably > Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they > feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) > > In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't > mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to > disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't > consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's > an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not > using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes > bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Alan, > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > > > > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > > > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. > > > > > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > > > know there's a binary for this). > > > > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, > > especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > > Yes, you're right. :-( > > When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions of > failures in b11 of 32 bit words. > > I'll try unplugging and replugging these. > > Thanks for the tip. > > > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com you can try upping the voltage of the ram by 0.05V. I had a stick that threw errors unless I gave it a bit more. After that the system was stable and none of the memtesting apps found any errors.
Re: [gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:22:21AM +, Alan Mackenzie wrote: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: Hi, Gentoo, My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I know there's a binary for this). everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, especially RAM closely followed by PSU. Yes, you're right. :-( When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions of failures in b11 of 32 bit words. I'll try unplugging and replugging these. No help. :-( No matter how I plug in the RAM (4 combinations of 2 sticks into 2 pairs of slots) it is always b11 which fails and always at an address ending in (hex) 0 or 8. How is this DDR3 Ram organised? Is each stick 64 bits wide, or are they 32 bits wide, being accessed by the motherboard pairwisely? If the latter, I would have exected the failure to move to address 4 and C when I swap the two sticks. Am I being prematurely pessimistic in thinking the motherboard might be the fault? alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). Sounds to me like the mobo may have issues. If swapping the ram around doesn't move the error, then the chips on the mobo that connect to the ram may be bad. I would still rule out power issues if you can. A bad power supply, or a weak one, can cause some pretty weird problems. Hmmm, I would also try putting in two sticks, then running the test and seeing what that says. If it still errors, try the other two sticks. If it still fails in the same place, see if you can put the sticks in the other two slots. Some mobos don't care what slot you have them in. May want to refer to the manual on that. Let's hope for something simple and cheap. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Ramifications of memtest86
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:22:21AM +, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst > > > emerging the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging > > > Openbox instead. > > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, > > > I know there's a binary for this). > > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, > > especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > Yes, you're right. :-( > When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions of > failures in b11 of 32 bit words. > I'll try unplugging and replugging these. No help. :-( No matter how I plug in the RAM (4 combinations of 2 sticks into 2 pairs of slots) it is always b11 which fails and always at an address ending in (hex) 0 or 8. How is this DDR3 Ram organised? Is each stick 64 bits wide, or are they 32 bits wide, being accessed by the motherboard pairwisely? If the latter, I would have exected the failure to move to address 4 and C when I swap the two sticks. Am I being prematurely pessimistic in thinking the motherboard might be the fault? > > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On 12 Feb, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo, > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > Just one more reason. Have you got more than 4 Gb RAM installed? If yes, you might have to reduce memory speed. Some CPUs (among them AMD Phenom) have difficulties at the specified RAM speed if more than 1 memory bank is installed. I have been burnt by that several times. Helmut. -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 12:54 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo, > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > know there's a binary for this). > > Then, on somebody's advice (not fully understood), I did > > # emerge -e gcc > > , to try and get a consistent working gcc. This crashed. I repeated > the invocation, and it crashed more quickly. :-( > > At this point, I thought, just reload "everything" from the stage3, with > > # cd / ; bunzip2 /stage3-amd64-20100121.tar.gz > > , which didn't help either. I emerged gentoolkit, to see if I could get > some handle on the mess. Then > > # revdep-rebuild -p > > threw a segfault. > > At this point, I'm feeling a bit sad. My rough guess is that there's > some conflict somewhere between 32-bit and 64-bit code, and some of my > USE flags are inconsistent with some others, or the kernel, or something > like that. > > One other thing I remember vaguely is that early on, some emerge told me > I had to "revdep-rebuild" something. I wasn't able to do this through > not yet knowing what "revdep-rebuild" meant, and not having any file of > that name on my system. Could this be the cause? > > Finally, is there a way of reloading/rebuilding ALL the executables > onto/on my system without discarding all my painfully wrought config > files and without portage getting confused? > > Thanks in advance for the help! > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > > +1 for memtest86. Since it's new hardware possibly your CPU fan isn't well seated? Failures while compiling sound like heat to me. Failures at random times sound like heat, PSU and memory problems. Hope tis helps, Mark
Re: [gentoo-user] 1-Terabyte drives - 4K sector sizes? -> bar performance so far
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Mick wrote: > On Tuesday 09 February 2010 16:31:15 Mark Knecht wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Mark Knecht wrote: >> >> >> > There's a few small downsides I've run into with all of this so far: >> > >> > 1) Since we don't use sector 63 it seems that fdisk will still tell >> > you that you can use 63 until you use up all your primary partitions. >> > It used to be easier to put additional partitions on when it gave you >> > the next sector you could use after the one you just added.. Now I'm >> > finding that I need to write things down and figure it out more >> > carefully outside of fdisk. >> >> Replying mostly to myself, WRT the value 63 continuing to show up >> after making the first partition start at 64, in my case since for >> desktop machines the first partition is general /boot, and as it's >> written and read so seldom, in the future when faced with this problem >> I will likely start /boot at 63 and just ensure that all the other >> partitions - /, /var, /home, etc., start on boundaries divisible by 8. >> >> It will make using fdisk slightly more pleasant. > > I noticed while working on two new laptops with gparted that resizing Windows > 7 and creating new partitions showed up small blank partitions (marked as > hidden) in between the resized, and/or the new partitions. If I recall > correctly these were only a few KB each so rather small as such. I am not > sure why gparted created these - could it be related to the drive > automatically aligning partitions to this 4K sector size that is discussed > here? > -- > Regards, > Mick > http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0902.3/01024.html Cheers, Mark
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
Hi, Alan, On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Hi, Gentoo, > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > > know there's a binary for this). > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, especially > RAM > closely followed by PSU. Yes, you're right. :-( When I run memtest86 from the gentoo boot disk, it signals millions of failures in b11 of 32 bit words. I'll try unplugging and replugging these. Thanks for the tip. > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] Keyword for dev-java/sun-j2ee
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties: On Friday 12 February 2010 01:51:40 Dale wrote: By the way, just installed KDE 4.4 and I still can't open a file with Dolphin as root. You are not supposed to do that. Dolphin runs as you. Nope, I got it set to run as root. It asks for the password and everything when I open Dolphin. It is set to do the same as it does when in KDE 3.5 with Konqueror. On the KDE lists, I was told there is supposed to be some more code added to make this work. Ironically I think it is a Dbus thing. I think that was what the issue turns out to be. Don't quote me on that. It's been months since I found this boo boo. I know it is root tho because I can enter my /root directory and browse around in it. I think it is Dolphin trying to open Kwrite as root that is the issue. Again, it has been a while. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Friday 12 February 2010 11:42:26 Graham Murray wrote: > Alan McKinnon writes: > > On Friday 12 February 2010 09:44:01 Graham Murray wrote: > >> Volker Armin Hemmann writes: > >> > so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a > >> > broweser or mail app that they are offline? > >> > >> Why does the app need to know? Browsers normally have an online/offline > >> menu selection and if you try to browse to a site when your network is > >> offline then the browser will generate the appropriate error message. In > >> any case, these notifications are only really of use on a single-homed > >> non LAN connected system. On an office LAN, you may well be able to > >> still access your mail server but a problem means that you cannot access > >> any web sites. > > > > A network connection manager tells apps when the machine's interface goes > > down, not when the gateway is no longer available. > > > > You have these two things conflated. > > Which still does not explain why the applications need to know when a > network interface goes down but does not need to know when (for example) > the ADSL connection (via an external router) to the 'outside world' goes > down[1]. As far as both the application and the user are concerned the > effect is exactly the same in both cases - the application is > offline. If it is considered important to inform the application of one, > then it should be equally important to inform the application of the > other. If a network interface goes offline then the user needs to know, > so as to take corrective action, but I do not think that telling the web > browser and mail applications is the correct way of informing the user. > > [1] Which in my experience, while not a frequent occurrence, happens > far more frequently than the network interface going down. The network beyond the machine is completely outside the control of any app on the machine, that's why it is not checked for. Besides, if the gateway is down, the LAN is usually still up local things are probably accessible. The most common case of the interface going down is the wireless kill switch pressed or the LAN cable pulled out. That's something the user would like to know due to many of them doing it a LOT. The system can send out a notify for that, which apps can chose to listen to or not. The most common case would be a popup saying "A cable is unplugged". Mailers can then take themselves offline if they wish, and that ability depends on what the dev decided to support. Just because you don't personally see the point does not mean a. It is pointless, or b. The message bus should not support such things -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Friday 12 February 2010 11:46:33 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > > > > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > > > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox > > > instead. > > > > > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > > > know there's a binary for this). > > > > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, > > especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > > > > Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* doing > > anything else. > > I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand new; > so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. The engineering phrase "infant mortality" comes to mind :-) > > Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? memtest is pretty good at this. Let it run for many hours, there's lots of tips out there in Googleland on how to get good results -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Friday 12 February 2010 12:15:13 Zeerak Waseem wrote: > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick > > wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't > >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems > >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. > > > > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail > > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not > > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are > > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. > > Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. > But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that > aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is > this the correct term?) dependencies. Your entire argument is pointless and utterly without merit. KDE is the way it is because that's how the devs built it. From a marketing perspective, it is correct the way it is because the vast majority of it's users will not understand or care about the point you are making and the DE was built for them. I'll give you an analogy: A new suspension bridge has permanent copper cladding on the stay wires. You are of the opinion that this should have been hot-pluggable and the city that paid for the bridge should have had the choice to fit aluminium cladding after the fact, and to be able to do so at the press of a button. You express this opinion to the bridge architect and present vast reams of made-up marketing fluff to support your point. The bridge architect and his team of engineers listen to you, look at each other and cock their eyebrows. The architect looks back at you and says: "Tough shit. We're not changing it now." There's a difference between what you think is the right way to proceed and the way the devs chose. If you don't like where kmail is going, use claws -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:42:26 +, Graham Murray wrote: > >> Why does the app need to know? Browsers normally have an > >> online/offline menu selection and if you try to browse to a site > >> when your network is offline then the browser will generate the > >> appropriate error message. You're on a train, it goes into a 3G dead zone, your mailer hangs until it times out, meaning you can't even read cached mails until that happens. > >> In any case, these notifications are only > >> really of use on a single-homed non LAN connected system. In that particular example, yes. What's wrong with that? There are plenty of people using laptops on wireless connections. > Which still does not explain why the applications need to know when a > network interface goes down but does not need to know when (for example) > the ADSL connection (via an external router) to the 'outside world' goes > down[1]. Who said it doesn't. Those are two separate situations, and a D-Bus aware system can address one of them. Inability to handle the latter is not a valid criticism of the former. That's like criticising a great footballer for being rubbish at tennis. > As far as both the application and the user are concerned the > effect is exactly the same in both cases - the application is > offline. The symptom is the same but the cause, and treatment, are different. > If it is considered important to inform the application of one, > then it should be equally important to inform the application of the > other. If a network interface goes offline then the user needs to know, > so as to take corrective action, but I do not think that telling the web > browser and mail applications is the correct way of informing the user. So the the network manager has to send a D-Bus message to a notification daemon which then tells the user to put his mailer in offline mode, hoping he can do that before it tries to access the server again? I thought computers were supposed to make life easier for us by automating such mundane tasks. Your suggestion is a little like a washing machine beeping at you to say "I've finished the rinse now, switch me to spin" instead of just doing it. -- Neil Bothwick Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] 1-Terabyte drives - 4K sector sizes? -> bar performance so far
On Tuesday 09 February 2010 16:31:15 Mark Knecht wrote: > On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Mark Knecht wrote: > > > > There's a few small downsides I've run into with all of this so far: > > > > 1) Since we don't use sector 63 it seems that fdisk will still tell > > you that you can use 63 until you use up all your primary partitions. > > It used to be easier to put additional partitions on when it gave you > > the next sector you could use after the one you just added.. Now I'm > > finding that I need to write things down and figure it out more > > carefully outside of fdisk. > > Replying mostly to myself, WRT the value 63 continuing to show up > after making the first partition start at 64, in my case since for > desktop machines the first partition is general /boot, and as it's > written and read so seldom, in the future when faced with this problem > I will likely start /boot at 63 and just ensure that all the other > partitions - /, /var, /home, etc., start on boundaries divisible by 8. > > It will make using fdisk slightly more pleasant. I noticed while working on two new laptops with gparted that resizing Windows 7 and creating new partitions showed up small blank partitions (marked as hidden) in between the resized, and/or the new partitions. If I recall correctly these were only a few KB each so rather small as such. I am not sure why gparted created these - could it be related to the drive automatically aligning partitions to this 4K sector size that is discussed here? -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
Another thing to try, change compile flag to -J1 (MAKEOPTS="-J1" emerge ...) Last time I built up a system there were a couple of packages that couldn't handle parallel compiles. HTH, Roy
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Feb 12, 2010, at 3:46 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand new; > so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. > > Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? > I use a kubuntu live disk, one of the boot options is to run memtest. I typically let it run a several hours on a new box. The second issue might be heat (or cooling depending on your point of view). A couple of things, easiest is to install the lm_sensors and your favorite capture utility. I also will use an IR thermometer and DMM with temperature probe to verify cooling. With lm_sensors running, I'll run several stress tests to find the hottest the system will run. If the system gets too hot, I'll increase cooling (more/faster fans). Another thing to check is that the memory is seated properly. I'd remove the modules, inspect the connectors, then very carefully reinstall them. While you are at it, make sure all connectors are seated correctly. HTH, Roy
Re: [gentoo-user] script to check if a package is installed ?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:38:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > Unfortunately eix -I -q CAT/PACK > > produces a return code of 0 irrespectively if CAT/PACK > > is install or not. > > > > I'd like to say > > > > for P in ...; do > > if CHECK_IF_INSTALLED $P; then echo $P; fi > > done > > > > What to replace for CHECK_IF_INSTALLED ? > > check for the existence of /var/db/pkg/$CAT/%PKG-* using test -f if [[ "$(eix -I -e cat/pkg)" != "No matches found" ]]; then... if [[ -n "$(qlist -Ie cat/pkg)" ]]; then... -- Neil Bothwick Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:46:33 + Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst > > > emerging the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging > > > Openbox instead. > > > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox > > > (yes, I know there's a binary for this). > > > > > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, > > especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > > > Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* > > doing anything else. > > I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand > new; so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. > > Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? > > [ ] > > > -- > > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com > you may wanna look at memtest86+, its in portage http://www.memtest.org/
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
> > I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand new; > so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. > > Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? > Most live CD's these days will come with memtest86 as a boot option, that would give your RAM a good workout and tell you how it looks. It could be that the RAM itself is perfectly fine, but just not working too well with your motherboard hardware, I have seen this many times before where in one system the RAM is completely unusable, but in a different system is perfectly fine. > [ ] > >> -- >> alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > >
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: > But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't > dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems > a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. -- Neil Bothwick "Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable." - Mark Twain signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On 12 Feb, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: >> On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> > Hi, Gentoo, > >> > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > >> > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging >> > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox >> > instead. > >> > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I >> > know there's a binary for this). > > > >> everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, >> especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > >> Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* doing >> anything else. > > I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand new; > so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. > > Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? I have made good experience with sys-apps/memtester. If you have not more than 4 Gb RAM, you can use the SystemRescueCD. Otherwise the GRML64 RescueCD has a true 64 bit version of memtester. I have made the experience that memtester finds errors more quickly than memtest86+ . Helmut. -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:21:22 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > Could you (or anyone else here) give us a really dumbed-down summary > > of why a dev would want/need to use a socket, versus a pipe, versus > > a signal, versus dbus, versus, well, whatever else is out there? Alan's answered all of this except the last part. Whatever else includes FIFOs, which are basically pipes that act like files. One program writes to it, another reads from it. Alan's comments about pipes apply here too. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
Alan McKinnon writes: > On Friday 12 February 2010 09:44:01 Graham Murray wrote: >> Volker Armin Hemmann writes: >> > so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a broweser >> > or mail app that they are offline? >> >> Why does the app need to know? Browsers normally have an online/offline >> menu selection and if you try to browse to a site when your network is >> offline then the browser will generate the appropriate error message. In >> any case, these notifications are only really of use on a single-homed >> non LAN connected system. On an office LAN, you may well be able to >> still access your mail server but a problem means that you cannot access >> any web sites. > > A network connection manager tells apps when the machine's interface goes > down, not when the gateway is no longer available. > > You have these two things conflated. Which still does not explain why the applications need to know when a network interface goes down but does not need to know when (for example) the ADSL connection (via an external router) to the 'outside world' goes down[1]. As far as both the application and the user are concerned the effect is exactly the same in both cases - the application is offline. If it is considered important to inform the application of one, then it should be equally important to inform the application of the other. If a network interface goes offline then the user needs to know, so as to take corrective action, but I do not think that telling the web browser and mail applications is the correct way of informing the user. [1] Which in my experience, while not a frequent occurrence, happens far more frequently than the network interface going down.
Re: [gentoo-user] script to check if a package is installed ?
On Friday 12 February 2010 11:16:22 Helmut Jarausch wrote: > Hi, > > does anybody know how to check if a package is installed using a script/ > shell. > > Unfortunately eix -I -q CAT/PACK > produces a return code of 0 irrespectively if CAT/PACK > is install or not. > > I'd like to say > > for P in ...; do > if CHECK_IF_INSTALLED $P; then echo $P; fi > done > > What to replace for CHECK_IF_INSTALLED ? check for the existence of /var/db/pkg/$CAT/%PKG-* using test -f This is not 100% accurate though, as kdebase-menu returns positive if kdebase- menu-icons is installed and kdebase-menu is not -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 10:50:46AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Hi, Gentoo, > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox > > instead. > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > > know there's a binary for this). > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, > especially RAM closely followed by PSU. > Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* doing > anything else. I hope you're not right here. ;-) The hardware is spanking brand new; so new, in fact, that it's still gleaming. Are there any handy utility programs around to test RAM exhaustively? [ ] > -- > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
[gentoo-user] script to check if a package is installed ?
Hi, does anybody know how to check if a package is installed using a script/ shell. Unfortunately eix -I -q CAT/PACK produces a return code of 0 irrespectively if CAT/PACK is install or not. I'd like to say for P in ...; do if CHECK_IF_INSTALLED $P; then echo $P; fi done What to replace for CHECK_IF_INSTALLED ? Many thanks for a hint, Helmut. -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
I am (was) getting this as well on a new amd64 install (zotac ION n330) - it appears there is a problem with certain glibc 32bit libraries - there is a bug about it. Upgraded glibc and most things are now happy - but I still cant build gcc. BillK On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 10:50 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Hi, Gentoo, > > > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. > > > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > > know there's a binary for this). > > > > everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, especially > RAM > closely followed by PSU. > > Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* doing > anything else. > > > > > > > > > Then, on somebody's advice (not fully understood), I did > > > > # emerge -e gcc > > > > , to try and get a consistent working gcc. This crashed. I repeated > > the invocation, and it crashed more quickly. :-( > > > > At this point, I thought, just reload "everything" from the stage3, with > > > > # cd / ; bunzip2 /stage3-amd64-20100121.tar.gz > > > > , which didn't help either. I emerged gentoolkit, to see if I could get > > some handle on the mess. Then > > > > # revdep-rebuild -p > > > > threw a segfault. > > > > At this point, I'm feeling a bit sad. My rough guess is that there's > > some conflict somewhere between 32-bit and 64-bit code, and some of my > > USE flags are inconsistent with some others, or the kernel, or something > > like that. > > > > One other thing I remember vaguely is that early on, some emerge told me > > I had to "revdep-rebuild" something. I wasn't able to do this through > > not yet knowing what "revdep-rebuild" meant, and not having any file of > > that name on my system. Could this be the cause? > > > > Finally, is there a way of reloading/rebuilding ALL the executables > > onto/on my system without discarding all my painfully wrought config > > files and without portage getting confused? > > > > Thanks in advance for the help! > -- William Kenworthy Home in Perth!
Re: [gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
On Friday 12 February 2010 10:54:53 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Gentoo, > > My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. > > The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging > the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. > > Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I > know there's a binary for this). everything you mention below is indicative of failing hardware, especially RAM closely followed by PSU. Swap them out with known good items and test thoroughly *before* doing anything else. > > Then, on somebody's advice (not fully understood), I did > > # emerge -e gcc > > , to try and get a consistent working gcc. This crashed. I repeated > the invocation, and it crashed more quickly. :-( > > At this point, I thought, just reload "everything" from the stage3, with > > # cd / ; bunzip2 /stage3-amd64-20100121.tar.gz > > , which didn't help either. I emerged gentoolkit, to see if I could get > some handle on the mess. Then > > # revdep-rebuild -p > > threw a segfault. > > At this point, I'm feeling a bit sad. My rough guess is that there's > some conflict somewhere between 32-bit and 64-bit code, and some of my > USE flags are inconsistent with some others, or the kernel, or something > like that. > > One other thing I remember vaguely is that early on, some emerge told me > I had to "revdep-rebuild" something. I wasn't able to do this through > not yet knowing what "revdep-rebuild" meant, and not having any file of > that name on my system. Could this be the cause? > > Finally, is there a way of reloading/rebuilding ALL the executables > onto/on my system without discarding all my painfully wrought config > files and without portage getting confused? > > Thanks in advance for the help! -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
[gentoo-user] New Gentoo system has become unstable and unusable - help, please!
Hi, Gentoo, My new Gentoo box has become unusably unstable. The first sign was when the compiler threw a segfault whilst emerging the xfce window manager. I "solved" this by emerging Openbox instead. Then I got another compiler segfault whilst emerging firefox (yes, I know there's a binary for this). Then, on somebody's advice (not fully understood), I did # emerge -e gcc , to try and get a consistent working gcc. This crashed. I repeated the invocation, and it crashed more quickly. :-( At this point, I thought, just reload "everything" from the stage3, with # cd / ; bunzip2 /stage3-amd64-20100121.tar.gz , which didn't help either. I emerged gentoolkit, to see if I could get some handle on the mess. Then # revdep-rebuild -p threw a segfault. At this point, I'm feeling a bit sad. My rough guess is that there's some conflict somewhere between 32-bit and 64-bit code, and some of my USE flags are inconsistent with some others, or the kernel, or something like that. One other thing I remember vaguely is that early on, some emerge told me I had to "revdep-rebuild" something. I wasn't able to do this through not yet knowing what "revdep-rebuild" meant, and not having any file of that name on my system. Could this be the cause? Finally, is there a way of reloading/rebuilding ALL the executables onto/on my system without discarding all my painfully wrought config files and without portage getting confused? Thanks in advance for the help! -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?
On Friday 12 February 2010 09:44:01 Graham Murray wrote: > Volker Armin Hemmann writes: > > so how do you propose that a network connection manager tells a broweser > > or mail app that they are offline? > > Why does the app need to know? Browsers normally have an online/offline > menu selection and if you try to browse to a site when your network is > offline then the browser will generate the appropriate error message. In > any case, these notifications are only really of use on a single-homed > non LAN connected system. On an office LAN, you may well be able to > still access your mail server but a problem means that you cannot access > any web sites. A network connection manager tells apps when the machine's interface goes down, not when the gateway is no longer available. You have these two things conflated. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
