Re: [gentoo-user] davical & thunderbird
Am 2012-11-07 01:48, schrieb Michael Orlitzky: > I tried too. It doesn't work. I guess this is our best hope? > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=546932 oh my ;) Is it not working at all or is only the import problematic? In my tests with much less data I had the impression that it works as soon as the bulk of adresses is in there.
[gentoo-user] Re: Revdep-rebuild: ams won't start due to shared library libclalsadrv.so.1
On 11/06/2012 04:18 PM, Frank Steinmetzger wrote: Hello For everything there is a first time. So after years of coping by myself, this is the first time I need an advice on a shared libary that can't be found. My problem: $ ams ams: error while loading shared libraries: libclalsadrv.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory I ran revdep-rebuild -pvi twice, the result was that only ams needs to be rebuilt. So I did it. But because it didn't solve the problem, I ran revdep again with the same outcome, My theory is that ams is linked to some library that is still linked to the missing one, i.e. ams has an indirect dependency through an old library that needs to be rebuilt --but-- for some reason revdep is not finding it. (Don't ask me why ;) I highly recommend the lddtree utility for tracking down indirect dependency like that. It is part of app-misc/pax-utils, which includes other interesting utilities that I don't yet know how to use. Even if it doesn't find your problem it's still worth every penny you pay for it :)
Re: [gentoo-user] davical & thunderbird
On 11/06/2012 05:10 PM, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: > > Does anyone of you use davical with thunderbird? > > Especially the carddav part with those sogo-connector/integrator addons? > > I try to move around 600 adresses in there and it always somehow stalls > or shows incorrect numbers. > > I read the wikipage at > > http://wiki.davical.org/w/CardDAV/Clients > > and also tried that mentioned setting ... no success. > > Maybe some other gentoo user here already found the issue. > I tried too. It doesn't work. I guess this is our best hope? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=546932
[gentoo-user] Revdep-rebuild: ams won't start due to shared library libclalsadrv.so.1
Hello For everything there is a first time. So after years of coping by myself, this is the first time I need an advice on a shared libary that can't be found. My problem: $ ams ams: error while loading shared libraries: libclalsadrv.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory I ran revdep-rebuild -pvi twice, the result was that only ams needs to be rebuilt. So I did it. But because it didn't solve the problem, I ran revdep again with the same outcome, so I built ams again. Next I did $ qdepends libclalsadrv The only returned packages was alsa-lib, so I did $ emerge alsa-lib ams Next I looked at the binary, and indeed it contains the string libclalsadrv.so.1. But right before that, it mentions jack, so I also rebuilt jack (hope dies last). But neither helped. So, please help me remove the tomatoes from my eyes---what am I missing here? Some background info: $ eix -e -c ams -o libclalsadrv -o alsa-lib | sed 's_:.*__g' [I] media-libs/alsa-lib (1.0.25-r1@07.11.2012) [I] media-libs/libclalsadrv (1.2.2@07.11.2012) [I] media-sound/ams (2.0.1@07.11.2012) $ qlist libclalsadrv /usr/share/doc/libclalsadrv-1.2.2/AUTHORS.bz2 /usr/include/clalsadrv.h /usr/lib64/libclalsadrv.so /usr/lib64/libclalsadrv.so.1.2.2 -- Gruß | Greetings | Qapla' Please do not share anything from, with or about me with any Facebook service. The four elements: earth, air and firewater. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel configuration management
Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > I'm planning to migrate several computers to Gentoo. At the moment I'm > running two machines with ad-hoc kernel configurations based on the > kernel configuration from the installation CD (which was created for > 2.6.26). In order to keep the maintenance effort for the new machines > low, I would like to have a unified/baseline kernel configuration with > minor adjustments for some machines. > > I have been thinking about this for several weeks now and came to the > conclusion, that there are two sub-problems: Creating a universal kernel > configuration and merging and maintaining specific configurations with > the baseline configuration. > > The second problem can be solved by simple concatenation and/or > defconfigman, kccmp and make silentoldconfig. OpenWRT does this pretty > much the same way. > > Creating the baseline configuration is much harder. So far I tried make > defconfig, the installation CD configuration and kernel-seeds.org. None > really satisfied my requirements and often resulted in ad-hoc changes > when I simply went through a compile and reboot cycle until everything > worked. I had a look at policies of other GNU/Linux distributions [1,2] > and found that I need to develop or adopt a policy for my systems (the > Ubuntu "modular where possible" policy seems reasonable to me and > probably makes the curent ad-hoc configuration unnecessary). I also > thought about reusing kernel configurations from other distributions, > but have some doubts about kernel version mismatches (i.e. the kernel > versions of Gentoo and the other distribution differ) and about > unintended implications of kernel options that I don't fully understand. > > The mailing list archives show that this topic has been partly discussed > before (especially whether Gentoo should have a default kernel > configuration like other distributions), so I don't want to start a > lengthy discussion about this here. I'm more interested in what other > people do for larger deployments/installations on heterogeneous hardware. Well, I have most things in modules and a lot of them, I don't have the hardware for, but it was very handy when I was able to take my configs over to a vm from regular hardware and it booted up right away. I am also using an initrd. HOpe that helps. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Measuring USB "packet loss"
> "CS" == Chris Stankevitz writes: CS> c) Can you recommend somewhere for me to ask this question where it CS> can be answered? I'd try one of: linux-...@vger.kernel.org libusb-de...@lists.sourceforge.net libusbx-de...@lists.sourceforge.net They are on gmane.org as: gmane.linux.usb.general gmane.comp.lib.libusb.devel.general gmane.comp.lib.libusbx.devel -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
Re: [gentoo-user] Kernel configuration management
On 11/07/2012 05:27 AM, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > I'm planning to migrate several computers to Gentoo. At the moment I'm > running two machines with ad-hoc kernel configurations based on the > kernel configuration from the installation CD (which was created for > 2.6.26). In order to keep the maintenance effort for the new machines > low, I would like to have a unified/baseline kernel configuration with > minor adjustments for some machines. > > I have been thinking about this for several weeks now and came to the > conclusion, that there are two sub-problems: Creating a universal kernel > configuration and merging and maintaining specific configurations with > the baseline configuration. > > The second problem can be solved by simple concatenation and/or > defconfigman, kccmp and make silentoldconfig. OpenWRT does this pretty > much the same way. > > Creating the baseline configuration is much harder. So far I tried make > defconfig, the installation CD configuration and kernel-seeds.org. None > really satisfied my requirements and often resulted in ad-hoc changes > when I simply went through a compile and reboot cycle until everything > worked. I had a look at policies of other GNU/Linux distributions [1,2] > and found that I need to develop or adopt a policy for my systems (the > Ubuntu "modular where possible" policy seems reasonable to me and > probably makes the curent ad-hoc configuration unnecessary). I also > thought about reusing kernel configurations from other distributions, > but have some doubts about kernel version mismatches (i.e. the kernel > versions of Gentoo and the other distribution differ) and about > unintended implications of kernel options that I don't fully understand. > > The mailing list archives show that this topic has been partly discussed > before (especially whether Gentoo should have a default kernel > configuration like other distributions), so I don't want to start a > lengthy discussion about this here. I'm more interested in what other > people do for larger deployments/installations on heterogeneous hardware. > > Regards, > Matthias-Christian > > [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/KernelConfig > [2] https://wiki.linaro.org/KernelConfigPolicyDraft > > I'm not an enterprise user, I use gentoo at home. I have 4 computers to maintain, 2 workstations, 1 notebook, 1 htpc I'm encountering the same problem. all the machine have similar but different config (including the kernel config). remember and sync them costs me some time. there's some tool to COPY config between machines, but none can deal with SIMILARITY smoothly. for the kernel config, I'm starting to write a policy-based-dot-config-auto-generating tool. the policy is like: 10-no-debug: Select "n" for any debug item, but with some exceptions 10-no-deprecate: Select n for any deprecated item, with exceptions 10-no-experimental: Select n for any experimental item, with exceptions 40-no-drv-rare: Select n for some rare driver i will never use 40-no-drv-with-deep-selects: select n for some driver that has too deep selets 50-all-net: select all the item in "Network support" 60-mod-all-drv: select m for all the drivers, like ubuntu 70-yes-key-items: select y for some key items every policy comprises code(python?) and data. I think every user has to write his own policy, which means writing some script, more work than writing config file, really. For me, I will make all my machines share the same policy code, but have different policy data. Sync only the policy data is easier and clearer. For you, I think the policy structure could be "policy code" + "global policy data" + "adjustment policy data". And another pro is you don't need to inspect the "unified/baseline kernel configuration" between kernel version updates. I'm starting to write a tool syncing other cfg between my machines either, it's another topic. relative links (this project really just starts): https://github.com/fpemud/fpemud-buildkernel https://github.com/ulfalizer/Kconfiglib http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-933726-highlight-fpemud.html
[gentoo-user] davical & thunderbird
Does anyone of you use davical with thunderbird? Especially the carddav part with those sogo-connector/integrator addons? I try to move around 600 adresses in there and it always somehow stalls or shows incorrect numbers. I read the wikipage at http://wiki.davical.org/w/CardDAV/Clients and also tried that mentioned setting ... no success. Maybe some other gentoo user here already found the issue. Thanks, Stefan
[gentoo-user] Kernel configuration management
I'm planning to migrate several computers to Gentoo. At the moment I'm running two machines with ad-hoc kernel configurations based on the kernel configuration from the installation CD (which was created for 2.6.26). In order to keep the maintenance effort for the new machines low, I would like to have a unified/baseline kernel configuration with minor adjustments for some machines. I have been thinking about this for several weeks now and came to the conclusion, that there are two sub-problems: Creating a universal kernel configuration and merging and maintaining specific configurations with the baseline configuration. The second problem can be solved by simple concatenation and/or defconfigman, kccmp and make silentoldconfig. OpenWRT does this pretty much the same way. Creating the baseline configuration is much harder. So far I tried make defconfig, the installation CD configuration and kernel-seeds.org. None really satisfied my requirements and often resulted in ad-hoc changes when I simply went through a compile and reboot cycle until everything worked. I had a look at policies of other GNU/Linux distributions [1,2] and found that I need to develop or adopt a policy for my systems (the Ubuntu "modular where possible" policy seems reasonable to me and probably makes the curent ad-hoc configuration unnecessary). I also thought about reusing kernel configurations from other distributions, but have some doubts about kernel version mismatches (i.e. the kernel versions of Gentoo and the other distribution differ) and about unintended implications of kernel options that I don't fully understand. The mailing list archives show that this topic has been partly discussed before (especially whether Gentoo should have a default kernel configuration like other distributions), so I don't want to start a lengthy discussion about this here. I'm more interested in what other people do for larger deployments/installations on heterogeneous hardware. Regards, Matthias-Christian [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/KernelConfig [2] https://wiki.linaro.org/KernelConfigPolicyDraft
[gentoo-user] Measuring USB "packet loss"
Hello, Some background: I'm running an experiment that is sensitive to USB latency of a few milliseconds. During a typical overnight run I encounter a handful such "latency events" and I am trying to understand why they happen. If you can recommend kernel settings/hacks that will decrease USB latency, please share! === Q: How can I retrieve a count of USB transmissions that failed or were retransmitted? (analogous to ifconfig on ethernet) Regarding this question: a) Can you answer it? b) Can you recommend something I can read that will answer it? c) Can you recommend somewhere for me to ask this question where it can be answered? === Thank you! Chris
[gentoo-user] Re: (double)click
On 2012-11-06, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: >> Once upon a time, there was a Minnesota company called Omnikey that >> made excellent keyboards -- almost as good as the model M (and they >> had a dipswitch and extra keycaps that let you have a proper Control >> key). I think got bought by Northgate, and then went out of business >> back when all the other smaller clone manufactures... > > Take a look at a company called Ergonomic Resources -- sorry I no longer > have the URL, but they make a similar keyboard which has actual > switches! etc. I do have the name -- Avant keyboard. AFAICT, the company that used to make the "Avant" Omnikey clones was Creative Vision Technologies, and they seem to have gone out of around 2009. There are reviews of the Avant keyboards from a few years ago (that mention the FCC ID of the keyboards contains the string 'omnikey'). But, nobody sells the avant keyboards, and CVT seems to be gone. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Am I SHOPLIFTING? at gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: (double)click
Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2012-11-06, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > >> The keyboard that came with my 8Mhz IBM PC-AT back in 1986 still gets > >> used every day and still works as good as the day I unpacked it. > >> It's an absolutely brilliant job of engineering and manufacturing. > > > > That's because it's a Model M - the best keyboard ever made IMNSHO > > > > You know you can still buy those? > > Yea, Unicomp bought the rights and sells them for $80: > >http://www.pckeyboard.com/ > > I was thrilled when I saw they offered a "spacesaver M" model. I > thought it was going to be a clone of the IBM 84-key model M "space > saver" that IBM sold back in 87-89. > > Nope. It's the same desk-hogging size as a regular M -- not really > sure where the "space saving" comes from. > > So now I'm really torn between the key-action of the M and the smaller > size and built-in pointer of the IBM spacesaver II. > > Once upon a time, there was a Minnesota company called Omnikey that > made excellent keyboards -- almost as good as the model M (and they > had a dipswitch and extra keycaps that let you have a proper Control > key). I think got bought by Northgate, and then went out of business > back when all the other smaller clone manufactures... Take a look at a company called Ergonomic Resources -- sorry I no longer have the URL, but they make a similar keyboard which has actual switches! etc. I do have the name -- Avant keyboard. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
[gentoo-user] Re: (double)click
On 2012-11-06, Alan McKinnon wrote: >> The keyboard that came with my 8Mhz IBM PC-AT back in 1986 still gets >> used every day and still works as good as the day I unpacked it. >> It's an absolutely brilliant job of engineering and manufacturing. > > That's because it's a Model M - the best keyboard ever made IMNSHO > > You know you can still buy those? Yea, Unicomp bought the rights and sells them for $80: http://www.pckeyboard.com/ I was thrilled when I saw they offered a "spacesaver M" model. I thought it was going to be a clone of the IBM 84-key model M "space saver" that IBM sold back in 87-89. Nope. It's the same desk-hogging size as a regular M -- not really sure where the "space saving" comes from. So now I'm really torn between the key-action of the M and the smaller size and built-in pointer of the IBM spacesaver II. Once upon a time, there was a Minnesota company called Omnikey that made excellent keyboards -- almost as good as the model M (and they had a dipswitch and extra keycaps that let you have a proper Control key). I think got bought by Northgate, and then went out of business back when all the other smaller clone manufactures... -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Will it improve my at CASH FLOW? gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Daylight time change and cron run twice
On 11/06/2012 09:29 AM, Dale wrote: > > Well, I'm medicated so pardon me if I get silly. What is the BEST cron > to use? I'm using vixie-cron since that is what was in the handbook > during my install. Let's not get into how long ago that was. lol So, > what cron has . . . well. . . the least issues and is more developed? > > Oh, would I need to reemerge anything to get the stuff updated? Things > like logrotate and such? I also couldn't find any USE flags for it > either. I know these use cron: > I use vixie-cron, its most important feature being that it scans /etc/crontab automatically so I don't have to remember to run `crontab /etc/crontab` every time I make a change to it. Fcron was aimed at being a vixie-cron replacement, but it doesn't automatically scan /etc/crontab. It does allow you to run missed jobs, though. Personally, if I want my cron jobs to run, I don't turn the machine off. Dcron is also probably also pretty good, since it was written by Matt Dillon (of Dragonfly BSD fame). If you switch away from vixie-cron, you might need to run `crontab /etc/crontab` once unless the ebuild does it for you. Otherwise, all the cron daemon does is invoke the run-crons script which does the real work.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: (double)click
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:06:37 + (UTC) Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2012-11-05, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > > and my prized possession: a Dell-branded Model-M craftily lifted > > out of the corner where it was hiding and no-one knew what it even > > was :-) > > Microsoft can't touch IBM when it comes to quality keyboards. > > The keyboard that came with my 8Mhz IBM PC-AT back in 1986 still gets > used every day and still works as good as the day I unpacked it. It's > an absolutely brilliant job of engineering and manufacturing. That's because it's a Model M - the best keyboard ever made IMNSHO You know you can still buy those? Some crowd bought the entire manufacturing rights to the Model M and set up shop making them for sale. Same keyboard, some models have electronic updates (like USB), same brilliant key action, same ability to be used as a lethal weapon (club) or as a cricket bat ;-) Cost is around $100 each last time I looked. > > I'm also very fond the IBM "space saver" keyaboard with the built in > "eraser nub" mouse keys and _without_ the waste-of-space numeric > keypad. I'm an engineer, not a checkout clerk at a grocery store... > > I _really_ wanted to like my happy hacker keyboard, but the key action > was just too stiff and vague. > -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] flaggie
Silvio Siefke wrote: > Hello, > > On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:50:05 -0600 > Dale wrote: > >> Short for "hope that helps". >> >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Internet_slang#H > > I am a long time on the Internet, but the slang I missed. > Today is the day not so boring. > > > :) > Greetings > Silvio > > Sometimes I have to go check that page too. I have it bookmarked. There are some weird ones that just don't make sense until I look them up. lol GTH. Glad to help. ;-) Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] Daylight time change and cron run twice
Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> On 11/06/2012 06:24 AM, Michael George wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 04, 2012 at 06:36:50PM -0500, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>>> On 11/04/2012 03:16 PM, Michael George wrote:
Local time changes of less than three hours, such as those
caused by the start or end of Daylight Saving Time, are handled
specially. This only applies to jobs that run at a specific
time and jobs that are run with a granularity greater than one
hour. Jobs that run more frequently are scheduled normally.
...
So it seems that DST changes are accommodated. Is there some
side-effect of the cron. method of scheduling tasks that I'm
overlooking?
>>> The run-crons script is triggered every ten minutes, and so avoids the
>>> special handling. But the script is broken, and has been so forever:
>>>
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777
>> I'm surprised that hasn't been fixed by now. Looking at the cron guide
>> (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777), is bcron subject to the
>> same problem because the run-crons script is in cronbase and not part of
>> the cron daemon?
>>
> I think all of them are, out-of-the-box. I just commented on the bug. I
> think the sensible thing to do is delete the time-management code in the
> run-crons script. It's only there as a half-assed attempt to run your
> missed jobs after a reboot, which fcron (and maybe others) does properly.
>
> If you don't want to mess with run-crons, you could just replace the
> stuff in /etc/crontab. All you really need is one command per line that
> does (untested),
>
> find "/etc/cron.${PERIOD}" -type f -executable -exec bash '{}' \;
>
>
Well, I'm medicated so pardon me if I get silly. What is the BEST cron
to use? I'm using vixie-cron since that is what was in the handbook
during my install. Let's not get into how long ago that was. lol So,
what cron has . . . well. . . the least issues and is more developed?
Oh, would I need to reemerge anything to get the stuff updated? Things
like logrotate and such? I also couldn't find any USE flags for it
either. I know these use cron:
root@fireball / # ls -R /etc/cron*
/etc/cron.deny /etc/crontab
/etc/cron.d:
/etc/cron.daily:
hplip_cron logrotate.cron makewhatis mlocate
/etc/cron.hourly:
/etc/cron.monthly:
/etc/cron.weekly:
pfl
root@fireball / #
Thanks much.
Dale
:-) :-)
--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how
you interpreted my words!
[gentoo-user] Re: (double)click
On 2012-11-05, Alan McKinnon wrote: > and my prized possession: a Dell-branded Model-M craftily lifted out of > the corner where it was hiding and no-one knew what it even was :-) Microsoft can't touch IBM when it comes to quality keyboards. The keyboard that came with my 8Mhz IBM PC-AT back in 1986 still gets used every day and still works as good as the day I unpacked it. It's an absolutely brilliant job of engineering and manufacturing. I'm also very fond the IBM "space saver" keyaboard with the built in "eraser nub" mouse keys and _without_ the waste-of-space numeric keypad. I'm an engineer, not a checkout clerk at a grocery store... I _really_ wanted to like my happy hacker keyboard, but the key action was just too stiff and vague. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm DESPONDENT ... I at hope there's something gmail.comDEEP-FRIED under this miniature DOMED STADIUM ...
Re: [gentoo-user] Daylight time change and cron run twice
On 11/06/2012 06:24 AM, Michael George wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 04, 2012 at 06:36:50PM -0500, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> On 11/04/2012 03:16 PM, Michael George wrote:
>>> Local time changes of less than three hours, such as those
>>> caused by the start or end of Daylight Saving Time, are handled
>>> specially. This only applies to jobs that run at a specific
>>> time and jobs that are run with a granularity greater than one
>>> hour. Jobs that run more frequently are scheduled normally.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> So it seems that DST changes are accommodated. Is there some
>>> side-effect of the cron. method of scheduling tasks that I'm
>>> overlooking?
>>>
>>
>> The run-crons script is triggered every ten minutes, and so avoids the
>> special handling. But the script is broken, and has been so forever:
>>
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777
>
> I'm surprised that hasn't been fixed by now. Looking at the cron guide
> (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777), is bcron subject to the
> same problem because the run-crons script is in cronbase and not part of
> the cron daemon?
>
I think all of them are, out-of-the-box. I just commented on the bug. I
think the sensible thing to do is delete the time-management code in the
run-crons script. It's only there as a half-assed attempt to run your
missed jobs after a reboot, which fcron (and maybe others) does properly.
If you don't want to mess with run-crons, you could just replace the
stuff in /etc/crontab. All you really need is one command per line that
does (untested),
find "/etc/cron.${PERIOD}" -type f -executable -exec bash '{}' \;
Re: [gentoo-user] flaggie
Hello, On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 19:50:05 -0600 Dale wrote: > Short for "hope that helps". > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Internet_slang#H I am a long time on the Internet, but the slang I missed. Today is the day not so boring. :) Greetings Silvio
Re: [gentoo-user] Daylight time change and cron run twice
On Sun, Nov 04, 2012 at 06:36:50PM -0500, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 11/04/2012 03:16 PM, Michael George wrote: > > Local time changes of less than three hours, such as those > > caused by the start or end of Daylight Saving Time, are handled > > specially. This only applies to jobs that run at a specific > > time and jobs that are run with a granularity greater than one > > hour. Jobs that run more frequently are scheduled normally. > > > > ... > > > > So it seems that DST changes are accommodated. Is there some > > side-effect of the cron. method of scheduling tasks that I'm > > overlooking? > > > > The run-crons script is triggered every ten minutes, and so avoids the > special handling. But the script is broken, and has been so forever: > > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777 I'm surprised that hasn't been fixed by now. Looking at the cron guide (https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69777), is bcron subject to the same problem because the run-crons script is in cronbase and not part of the cron daemon? -- -M Rident stolidi verba Latina. -Ovid
