Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Thursday 17 December 2009 00:25:43 Dale wrote: Hearing they use old code is not to surprising actually. Look at air traffic control. Every time they try to upgrade, it crashes. I guess the cheapest bidder is not always the best. o_O Every such crash after an upgrade I know of is trying to run the thing on Windows... Yep, I read the same thing. Why not use a real OS? I'm thinking BSD or something. Linux would be good but I think BSD is even better suited for basically 100% uptime. Solaris. Those guys need thumping great big iron. Solaris excels at that. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Wednesday 16 December 2009 01:34:33 Dale wrote: A real world scenario would be a bank server doing transactions. Those big irons do never ever get shut down. (But they also don't ever get really updated ;) Did you know, that they still use cobol-code from decades ago. The code has to interact with newer systems, but the existing code is not allowed to be altered, they just run it inside hugh java application servers on their main frames :D Bye, Daniel Well, I wish someone would tell my bank that. They are down pretty regular upgrading something. I use the term upgrading lightly here. It usually makes things worse but anyway. They run windoze on their rig so they most likely can't help that. ;-) They upgrade the *front*ends*, not the real stuff at the back. Switching a mainframe off is not a supported activity :-) Along those lines I could tell you some funny stories about monumental cockups banks do to their front ends (my S.O. does banking data warehousing), but I'm not actually supposed to know some of that stuff so I won't :-) Hearing they use old code is not to surprising actually. Look at air traffic control. Every time they try to upgrade, it crashes. I guess the cheapest bidder is not always the best. o_O Every such crash after an upgrade I know of is trying to run the thing on Windows... -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Wednesday 16 December 2009 01:34:33 Dale wrote: A real world scenario would be a bank server doing transactions. Those big irons do never ever get shut down. (But they also don't ever get really updated ;) Did you know, that they still use cobol-code from decades ago. The code has to interact with newer systems, but the existing code is not allowed to be altered, they just run it inside hugh java application servers on their main frames :D Bye, Daniel Well, I wish someone would tell my bank that. They are down pretty regular upgrading something. I use the term upgrading lightly here. It usually makes things worse but anyway. They run windoze on their rig so they most likely can't help that. ;-) They upgrade the *front*ends*, not the real stuff at the back. Switching a mainframe off is not a supported activity :-) Along those lines I could tell you some funny stories about monumental cockups banks do to their front ends (my S.O. does banking data warehousing), but I'm not actually supposed to know some of that stuff so I won't :-) I'm not sure about back end or front end but they sure make a mess of it at times. Hearing they use old code is not to surprising actually. Look at air traffic control. Every time they try to upgrade, it crashes. I guess the cheapest bidder is not always the best. o_O Every such crash after an upgrade I know of is trying to run the thing on Windows... Yep, I read the same thing. Why not use a real OS? I'm thinking BSD or something. Linux would be good but I think BSD is even better suited for basically 100% uptime. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On 12/11/2009 08:00 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. kexec and CONFIG_RELOCATABLE I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O Dale :-) :-) A real world scenario would be a bank server doing transactions. Those big irons do never ever get shut down. (But they also don't ever get really updated ;) Did you know, that they still use cobol-code from decades ago. The code has to interact with newer systems, but the existing code is not allowed to be altered, they just run it inside hugh java application servers on their main frames :D Bye, Daniel -- use PGP key @ http://pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de/pks/lookup?search=0xBB9D4887op=get # gpg --recv-keys --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net 0xBB9D4887 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Daniel Troeder wrote: On 12/11/2009 08:00 PM, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. kexec and CONFIG_RELOCATABLE I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O Dale :-) :-) A real world scenario would be a bank server doing transactions. Those big irons do never ever get shut down. (But they also don't ever get really updated ;) Did you know, that they still use cobol-code from decades ago. The code has to interact with newer systems, but the existing code is not allowed to be altered, they just run it inside hugh java application servers on their main frames :D Bye, Daniel Well, I wish someone would tell my bank that. They are down pretty regular upgrading something. I use the term upgrading lightly here. It usually makes things worse but anyway. They run windoze on their rig so they most likely can't help that. ;-) Hearing they use old code is not to surprising actually. Look at air traffic control. Every time they try to upgrade, it crashes. I guess the cheapest bidder is not always the best. o_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Saturday 12 December 2009 21:42:13 Dale wrote: And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. This is perfectly true and a well-proven fact. Thermal recycling is not good for electronics. It is good for your electricity bill though Tektronix did some proper lab tests many many years ago on their top-of-the- line oscilloscopes. They found that the calibration interval could be tripled if the rig was never switched off (just turn down the brightness overnight) I know I have read that several times but I didn't know someone actually tested the thing. I know my BBQ grill would be better off if I could run it all the time. You have to understand, I had this little table top grill that was stainless steel. I have had that thing for ages and I loved it. I could cook some mean steaks and burgers on it. Anyway, it didn't rust through but it just flaked off on the bottom. It is the heating and cooling cycles that does this. I had the same thing happen to a old wood burning heater we had ages ago. It just got old and the metal was thin even tho it wasn't rusted or anything. It sure was lighter going out of the house than it was coming in. It took six to get it in but only two to take it out. Isn't there metal in CPUs, memory chips and stuff? I know there is silicone but I assume there is metal like copper or something in there too. They can't like heat cycles either. They are so small nowadays. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Sonntag 13 Dezember 2009, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Saturday 12 December 2009 21:42:13 Dale wrote: And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. This is perfectly true and a well-proven fact. Thermal recycling is not good for electronics. It is good for your electricity bill though no, it is a myth. Fanbearing are pretty sensitive. Harddisk bearings are not made for 24/7 anymore. Caps age under load. Even a small increase in heat halfs the expected halftime. Let your rig run all the time and you increase the risk of hardware failure a lot. Tektronix did some proper lab tests many many years ago on their top-of-the- line oscilloscopes. They found that the calibration interval could be tripled if the rig was never switched off (just turn down the brightness overnight) and how does sensitve measuring equipment compare to not-very-sensitive-but- fast-aging-and-consisting-of-cheap-crap-computers?
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
=== On Sat, 12/12, Dale wrote: === Your mileage may vary tho. === I have an IBM hard disk (IBM DMVS09V) that has been running for 9 years non-stop. Device: IBM DMVS09V Version: 0100 Serial number: F801275875 SMART Health Status: OK Manufactured in week 01 of year 1999 Of course, at 9 Gigs it has become obsolete long before it fails. -- Keith Dart -- -- ~ Keith Dart ke...@dartworks.biz public key: ID: 19017044 http://www.dartworks.biz/ =
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Keith Dart wrote: === On Sat, 12/12, Dale wrote: === Your mileage may vary tho. === I have an IBM hard disk (IBM DMVS09V) that has been running for 9 years non-stop. Device: IBM DMVS09V Version: 0100 Serial number: F801275875 SMART Health Status: OK Manufactured in week 01 of year 1999 Of course, at 9 Gigs it has become obsolete long before it fails. -- Keith Dart Honestly, I worry about lightening hitting my puter and dust build-up more than anything else. I do run pretty cool tho. Big fans and lots of heat sinks. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Willie Wong wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W I have noticed that before. There is someone that has like four or five years on here somewhere. Maybe it was the forums. Anyway, we have to reboot eventually. The power company forced me to shut down. Of course, they have been doing a lot better job trimming the trees since then. I got big piles of mulch to prove it too. ;-) We also haven't had a hurricane again either. That helps a little. Dale :-) :-) and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason? Well, in the winter time, I run folding and it adds a little extra heat to my room. In the summer time I don't run folding but I do keep it on unless I am going to be gone all day or something like that. I'm on the puter a lot so really no need to cut it off. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Willie Wong wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W I have noticed that before. There is someone that has like four or five years on here somewhere. Maybe it was the forums. Anyway, we have to reboot eventually. The power company forced me to shut down. Of course, they have been doing a lot better job trimming the trees since then. I got big piles of mulch to prove it too. ;-) We also haven't had a hurricane again either. That helps a little. Dale :-) :-) and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason? Well, in the winter time, I run folding and it adds a little extra heat to my room. isolation is a lot cheaper on the long run.
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 06:32:58AM +0100, Penguin Lover Volker Armin Hemmann squawked: and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason? I travel a lot. It is convenient to have a server to serve my e-mail and personal files. There are certain (financial/identification/etc.) documents that I would prefer not store on someone else's server. And considering the intrusive border checks now that US is implementing, I would also prefer not to have those files on my laptop or on a thumbdrive. Besides, it also is a in-facing file/print server for the family LAN, so not having to keep turning it off and on is rather convenient. You may disagree, but considering that the box is almost 10 years old and doesn't actually use all that much power idling, for the moment being I think it is acceptable. Cheers, W -- REMEMBER: Stressed spelled backward is desserts Sortir en Pantoufles: up 1100 days, 13:03
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Well, in the winter time, I run folding and it adds a little extra heat to my room. isolation is a lot cheaper on the long run. I have to run the heater whether the puter is on or not. It just means the heater doesn't have to run as much since the puter takes up a little bit of the slack. That said, my puter doesn't pull a whole lot anyway. I used to run folding year round. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Willie Wong wrote: On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 06:32:58AM +0100, Penguin Lover Volker Armin Hemmann squawked: and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason? I travel a lot. It is convenient to have a server to serve my e-mail and personal files. There are certain (financial/identification/etc.) documents that I would prefer not store on someone else's server. And considering the intrusive border checks now that US is implementing, I would also prefer not to have those files on my laptop or on a thumbdrive. Besides, it also is a in-facing file/print server for the family LAN, so not having to keep turning it off and on is rather convenient. You may disagree, but considering that the box is almost 10 years old and doesn't actually use all that much power idling, for the moment being I think it is acceptable. Cheers, W And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On 12/12/2009 2:42 PM, Dale wrote: And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. I think that is more of a psychological thing than a hardware thing...basically if a computer is already there and ready to be used, people don't think about getting a new one. Besides, what kind of failure would be caused by expanding and contracting anyway? In my experience, old computers don't really break, they just become obsolete... Marcus
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Willie Wong wrote: On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 06:32:58AM +0100, Penguin Lover Volker Armin Hemmann squawked: and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason? I travel a lot. It is convenient to have a server to serve my e-mail and personal files. There are certain (financial/identification/etc.) documents that I would prefer not store on someone else's server. And considering the intrusive border checks now that US is implementing, I would also prefer not to have those files on my laptop or on a thumbdrive. Besides, it also is a in-facing file/print server for the family LAN, so not having to keep turning it off and on is rather convenient. You may disagree, but considering that the box is almost 10 years old and doesn't actually use all that much power idling, for the moment being I think it is acceptable. Cheers, W And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. Dale :-) :-) except that is a myth and harddisk vendors say that modern desktop harddisks are not built for 24/7 usage.
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Sonntag 13 Dezember 2009, Marcus Wanner wrote: On 12/12/2009 2:42 PM, Dale wrote: And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. I think that is more of a psychological thing than a hardware thing...basically if a computer is already there and ready to be used, people don't think about getting a new one. Besides, what kind of failure would be caused by expanding and contracting anyway? In my experience, old computers don't really break, they just become obsolete... Marcus computers break. The caps age tremendously. Especially heat makes them die soon. So if you want to use your computer over a long period of time you shut it off if you don't need it in the next couple of hours.
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
=== On Sat, 12/12, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: === except that is a myth and harddisk vendors say that modern desktop harddisks are not built for 24/7 usage. === Right. That's why I always buy high-end server disks. It's worth it if you plan to use your system for a long time. -- Keith Dart -- -- ~ Keith Dart ke...@dartworks.biz public key: ID: 19017044 http://www.dartworks.biz/ =
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Keith Dart wrote: === On Sat, 12/12, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: === except that is a myth and harddisk vendors say that modern desktop harddisks are not built for 24/7 usage. === Right. That's why I always buy high-end server disks. It's worth it if you plan to use your system for a long time. -- Keith Dart Sort of funny in a way. My rig is about 6 years old. So far, the fans is the only thing that i have had trouble with. Bearings fail after a while. I did have a power supply to go out but that was because the fan stopped working. Your mileage may vary tho. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Saturday 12 December 2009 21:42:13 Dale wrote: And some would also argue that cycling power on and off is actually bad for the rig as well. Keeping things at a constant temp is better than fluctuating temps. The old expanding and contracting of material argument. Sort of strange that computers that run a lot last a lng time. This is perfectly true and a well-proven fact. Thermal recycling is not good for electronics. It is good for your electricity bill though Tektronix did some proper lab tests many many years ago on their top-of-the- line oscilloscopes. They found that the calibration interval could be tripled if the rig was never switched off (just turn down the brightness overnight) -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
[gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On 11 Dec, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). Thanks again Alan, Helmut. -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 13:02:36 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? No, not at all, you conclude wrongly. Unix works the way it does precisely so you *don't* require a reboot to use new libraries. They are already there and fully installed and fully operational. You just have to start using them - this may require restarting the relevant app that uses them and perhaps ldconfig. Windows is the brain-dead johnnie-come-lately here that requires reboots. But then again, Windows requires a reboot when it detects the pointer has moved so that isn't surprising On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). It was probably trying to use different versions of two matched libs. You should not have needed a reboot to fix that. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Helmut Jarausch wrote: On 11 Dec, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). Thanks again Alan, Helmut. I'll add two cents here. Let's say I upgrade Seamonkey which is my web browser / email program. I sync and notice there is a update to Seamonkey available and I let emerge update it. When the install is complete, I don't have to reboot or even log out of KDE. All I have to do is close Seamonkey and start it again. It will then load the new updated version and run it. The same could be said for a service like cups. If you update cups, all you have to do is restart the service. It will stop the old service then load up the new service that was just installed. Just a simple /etc/init.d/cupsd restart will work just fine. If you upgrade something kde, say kdelibs or some other kde base package, then all you need to do is log out of KDE and log back in again. Sort of the same with updating xorg, logout, go to a console and restart xdm or whatever you use to start X. I usually use the ctrl alt backspace key but restarting the service is better, or so some have said anyway. Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. Hope that helps a little. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:16 -0600, Dale wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: On 11 Dec, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). Thanks again Alan, Helmut. I'll add two cents here. Let's say I upgrade Seamonkey which is my web browser / email program. I sync and notice there is a update to Seamonkey available and I let emerge update it. When the install is complete, I don't have to reboot or even log out of KDE. All I have to do is close Seamonkey and start it again. It will then load the new updated version and run it. The same could be said for a service like cups. If you update cups, all you have to do is restart the service. It will stop the old service then load up the new service that was just installed. Just a simple /etc/init.d/cupsd restart will work just fine. If you upgrade something kde, say kdelibs or some other kde base package, then all you need to do is log out of KDE and log back in again. Sort of the same with updating xorg, logout, go to a console and restart xdm or whatever you use to start X. I usually use the ctrl alt backspace key but restarting the service is better, or so some have said anyway. Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. Hope that helps a little. Dale :-) :-) I absolutely concur with Alan and Dale, I just want to warn a bit about complex X11-environments like gnome or kde. If you logout and login again, it is NOT secure, that all gnome/kde/qt apps have been closed. There are services (gconf, kded, pulse, etc) that take a time to quit, or sometimes just don't :( Then, when an app was linked against a symlink, and that left-over-app too, the dynamic loader may not load a newly installed library, but reuses the one in memory (from the left-over-app). [1] It's still valid, that no reboot is needed, but you sure can be unlucky :) Bye, Daniel [1] don't take this info for granted, I'm no expert in this - just what I understood from reading... -- PGP key @ http://pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de/pks/lookup?search=0xBB9D4887op=get # gpg --recv-keys --keyserver hkp://subkeys.pgp.net 0xBB9D4887 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
2009/12/11 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On Friday 11 December 2009 13:02:36 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? No, not at all, you conclude wrongly. Unix works the way it does precisely so you *don't* require a reboot to use new libraries. They are already there and fully installed and fully operational. You just have to start using them - this may require restarting the relevant app that uses them and perhaps ldconfig. To find out which files have been replaced, you can use the following command : lsof | grep DEL This will give you all files that have been deleted since they have been loaded by the process. From the process name, you can deduce the service and restart it. I've never needed a reboot for this kind of problem. You may have to switch to run level 1 to restart some important services like udev. Windows is the brain-dead johnnie-come-lately here that requires reboots. But then again, Windows requires a reboot when it detects the pointer has moved so that isn't surprising On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). It was probably trying to use different versions of two matched libs. You should not have needed a reboot to fix that. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com Mickaël Bucas
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Mickaël Bucas wrote: 2009/12/11 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On Friday 11 December 2009 13:02:36 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? No, not at all, you conclude wrongly. Unix works the way it does precisely so you *don't* require a reboot to use new libraries. They are already there and fully installed and fully operational. You just have to start using them - this may require restarting the relevant app that uses them and perhaps ldconfig. To find out which files have been replaced, you can use the following command : lsof | grep DEL This will give you all files that have been deleted since they have been loaded by the process. From the process name, you can deduce the service and restart it. I've never needed a reboot for this kind of problem. You may have to switch to run level 1 to restart some important services like udev. Mickaël Bucas Actually, you can kill udev and restart it. Kill the process and then run /sbin/udevd --daemon and it will be started again. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Daniel Troeder wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:16 -0600, Dale wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: On 11 Dec, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). Thanks again Alan, Helmut. I'll add two cents here. Let's say I upgrade Seamonkey which is my web browser / email program. I sync and notice there is a update to Seamonkey available and I let emerge update it. When the install is complete, I don't have to reboot or even log out of KDE. All I have to do is close Seamonkey and start it again. It will then load the new updated version and run it. The same could be said for a service like cups. If you update cups, all you have to do is restart the service. It will stop the old service then load up the new service that was just installed. Just a simple /etc/init.d/cupsd restart will work just fine. If you upgrade something kde, say kdelibs or some other kde base package, then all you need to do is log out of KDE and log back in again. Sort of the same with updating xorg, logout, go to a console and restart xdm or whatever you use to start X. I usually use the ctrl alt backspace key but restarting the service is better, or so some have said anyway. Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. Hope that helps a little. Dale :-) :-) I absolutely concur with Alan and Dale, I just want to warn a bit about complex X11-environments like gnome or kde. If you logout and login again, it is NOT secure, that all gnome/kde/qt apps have been closed. There are services (gconf, kded, pulse, etc) that take a time to quit, or sometimes just don't :( Then, when an app was linked against a symlink, and that left-over-app too, the dynamic loader may not load a newly installed library, but reuses the one in memory (from the left-over-app). [1] It's still valid, that no reboot is needed, but you sure can be unlucky :) Bye, Daniel [1] don't take this info for granted, I'm no expert in this - just what I understood from reading... This can be true. I have ran into this a couple times. I sometimes go to single user, rc single, and when I look at the running processes, they are still some X or KDE processes running. If I understand how this works tho, any new things will start with the new files and not the old ones. For example, you have Konqueror open and running and it is updated. If you open a new one from the menu, it should load the new files. A lot of this would depend on how it forks I guess. I think Seamonkey for example would just fork from the original process and would use the old files or maybe give a error message. I know it looks for a already running process when it starts. I guess some of this depends on how the program is
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Freitag 11 Dezember 2009, Daniel Troeder wrote: On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 07:16 -0600, Dale wrote: Helmut Jarausch wrote: On 11 Dec, Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 11:11:41 Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, I'm curious how portage solves its most difficult part (in my eyes). When installing a dynamic library (by hand) I have often got an error messages if the corresponding library is currently in use. How does portage succeed anyway. (I have the suspicion that it does not succeed always, since sometimes only rebooting solves some very strange problems) How to replace fundamental X11-libaries on a system running X11 or even more suprising, how can I replace a running glibc ? Many thanks for enlightening me, Helmut. Portage does nothing special, as dealing with this is a Unix thing. On Unix, the inode is the file, not the directory entry. If you want to replace an open file, the system simply does it and updates the dentry to point to a new inode. Any spp using the old file will continue to use it as it still has a handle to the inode. The inode is only fully deleted when the last app using it closes it If you update a library to a new version with an API break, the lib should get a new soname so the file is a different name, hence no collision (symlinks to libraries excepted). This is how it should work, any code that tries to do it a different way is by definition broken, that's why portage needs take no special measures. All of this is in complete contrast to other broken systems, such as Windows for example. On Windows, the filename IS the file, so upgrades are horrible. Installers must put the file somewhere else and have the final steps and registry updates done at next reboot before anything has a chance to open libs. This is why fairly deep updates on Windows often require multiple reboot - multiple apps installed multiple libs to be fiddled with multiple times Many thanks Alan, so I conclude that rebooting IS necessary to get the new libraries used, isn't it? On the other hand running applications should continue to run, which is not always the case, e.g. recently using cvs as non-root user just hanged. Rebooting the system solved it (since I update my system nearly each day). Thanks again Alan, Helmut. I'll add two cents here. Let's say I upgrade Seamonkey which is my web browser / email program. I sync and notice there is a update to Seamonkey available and I let emerge update it. When the install is complete, I don't have to reboot or even log out of KDE. All I have to do is close Seamonkey and start it again. It will then load the new updated version and run it. The same could be said for a service like cups. If you update cups, all you have to do is restart the service. It will stop the old service then load up the new service that was just installed. Just a simple /etc/init.d/cupsd restart will work just fine. If you upgrade something kde, say kdelibs or some other kde base package, then all you need to do is log out of KDE and log back in again. Sort of the same with updating xorg, logout, go to a console and restart xdm or whatever you use to start X. I usually use the ctrl alt backspace key but restarting the service is better, or so some have said anyway. Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. Hope that helps a little. Dale :-) :-) I absolutely concur with Alan and Dale, I just want to warn a bit about complex X11-environments like gnome or kde. If you logout and login again, it is NOT secure, that all gnome/kde/qt apps have been closed. There are services (gconf, kded, pulse, etc) that take a time to quit, or sometimes just don't :( Then, when an app was linked against a symlink, and that left-over-app too, the dynamic loader may not load a newly installed library, but reuses the one in memory (from the left-over-app). [1] It's still valid, that no reboot is needed, but you sure can be unlucky :) Bye, Daniel [1] don't take this info for granted, I'm no expert in this - just what I understood from reading... /etc/init.d/xdm stop killall -9 X /etc/init.d/xdm zap /etc/init.d/xdm start
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On 12/11/2009 9:38 AM, Dale wrote: Mickaël Bucas wrote: From the process name, you can deduce the service and restart it. I've never needed a reboot for this kind of problem. You may have to switch to run level 1 to restart some important services like udev. Actually, you can kill udev and restart it. Kill the process and then run /sbin/udevd --daemon and it will be started again. Yeah, or you could, you know, just reboot. Frankly I have never figured out the irrational fear Linux people have about rebooting their machines after a big upgrade. It takes my laptop way less time to shutdown and restart than it does for me to manually stop and restart everything that just got updated, and I can go grab a soda in the meantime. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. kexec and CONFIG_RELOCATABLE I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 18:33:49 Mike Edenfield wrote: On 12/11/2009 9:38 AM, Dale wrote: Mickaël Bucas wrote: From the process name, you can deduce the service and restart it. I've never needed a reboot for this kind of problem. You may have to switch to run level 1 to restart some important services like udev. Actually, you can kill udev and restart it. Kill the process and then run /sbin/udevd --daemon and it will be started again. Yeah, or you could, you know, just reboot. Frankly I have never figured out the irrational fear Linux people have about rebooting their machines after a big upgrade. It takes my laptop way less time to shutdown and restart than it does for me to manually stop and restart everything that just got updated, and I can go grab a soda in the meantime. That's a laptop. Do you have an SLA with customers where you guarantee your laptop will be up 99.999%? My database and DNS servers do, and just in case you were asking, those 5 nines INCLUDES scheduled downtime. Unlike some other machines around in the company like, gee, I dunno, the Windows machines hosting the Active Directory, maybe? For some obscure perverse reason akin to grey elephants in the living room, those have 20 minutes downtime every single Friday. If I did that with my *nix boxes, I can pretty much kiss my plans for Christmas Bonus goodbye. Now do you understand why my refusal to reboot my machines willy-nilly is entirely rational? It's because they are not my laptop. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 18:33:49 Mike Edenfield wrote: On 12/11/2009 9:38 AM, Dale wrote: Mickaël Bucas wrote: From the process name, you can deduce the service and restart it. I've never needed a reboot for this kind of problem. You may have to switch to run level 1 to restart some important services like udev. Actually, you can kill udev and restart it. Kill the process and then run /sbin/udevd --daemon and it will be started again. Yeah, or you could, you know, just reboot. Frankly I have never figured out the irrational fear Linux people have about rebooting their machines after a big upgrade. It takes my laptop way less time to shutdown and restart than it does for me to manually stop and restart everything that just got updated, and I can go grab a soda in the meantime. That's a laptop. Do you have an SLA with customers where you guarantee your laptop will be up 99.999%? My database and DNS servers do, and just in case you were asking, those 5 nines INCLUDES scheduled downtime. Unlike some other machines around in the company like, gee, I dunno, the Windows machines hosting the Active Directory, maybe? For some obscure perverse reason akin to grey elephants in the living room, those have 20 minutes downtime every single Friday. If I did that with my *nix boxes, I can pretty much kiss my plans for Christmas Bonus goodbye. Now do you understand why my refusal to reboot my machines willy-nilly is entirely rational? It's because they are not my laptop. That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. I only rebooted then because hurricane Katrina knocked out my lights for about 26 hours. My little generator also bit the dust. It had a nice hole in the side of the motor and a really nasty smell. There are a lot of computers that can't be rebooted easily. Some are run remotely too. Some like yours just have to run 24/7 which is one thing *nix is good at. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. kexec and CONFIG_RELOCATABLE I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 21:00:49 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O IBM mainframes many years ago could be rebooted. I mean rebooting was physically not supported; there wasn't even an on/off switch. There was a guillotine blade around the incoming mains feed attached to an explosive bolt and only supposed to be activated by the building's Fireman's Switch :-) Mars probes can be rebooted, but the underlying BIOS-type code cannot, and it has all kinds of fail-safe routines built in, if code doesn't work it reverts back to the last known good version. Much like today's smartphones which is the prime reason why it's normally insanely hard to permanently brick them. But all that really does is move the you can't ever halt this code section one level lower -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Friday 11 December 2009 20:54:46 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: Now do you understand why my refusal to reboot my machines willy-nilly is entirely rational? It's because they are not my laptop. That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. I only rebooted then because hurricane Katrina knocked out my lights for about 26 hours. My little generator also bit the dust. It had a nice hole in the side of the motor and a really nasty smell. There are a lot of computers that can't be rebooted easily. Some are run remotely too. Some like yours just have to run 24/7 which is one thing *nix is good at. Some numbers :-) I have three auth name servers. I have customers who get mighty upset when they blip. Hence, I need to provide guarantees like this: These two are in-country in the data centres we control: $ uptime 9:07PM up 65 days $ uptime 9:07PM up 994 days This one is in New York, where I definitely have no control at all: $ uptime 9:07PM up 464 days -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On 12/11/09 11:00, Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 17:07:17 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 15:16:01 Dale wrote: Rebooting will also do all of this but it is not needed. From a technical stand point, the only time you must reboot is to load a new kernel. And these days, not even then :-) [it requires some voodoo but is certainly possible] [[and I don't mean build and install a new kernel, I really do mean loa ti into memory and run it, dispensing with the old one]] I have read about that but never read something from someone who has actually done it. I have always been curious as to how that would work, in reality not just theory. kexec and CONFIG_RELOCATABLE I have also wondered why a person would go to all that trouble. Wouldn't all the services have to be restarted anyway? Nope. userspace ABI is stable so services just carry on as normal once he new kernel comes up. You don't need to restart SeaMonkey if you restart a local apache on your machine - same thing That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O Dale :-) :-) The closest thing that I have used to not rebooting my machine is kexec, it completely unloads the current running kernel and then loading the new kernel in it's place.
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 11 December 2009 21:00:49 Dale wrote: That would be cool of you had a system that just couldn't be rebooted. Is there such a thing tho? What would be the reason a machine just could not be rebooted? I guess one would be if the puter was on planet Mars maybe? Is that how NASA does it? lol Could you imagine getting a blue screen of death on a computer that is on Mars? O_O IBM mainframes many years ago could be rebooted. I mean rebooting was physically not supported; there wasn't even an on/off switch. There was a guillotine blade around the incoming mains feed attached to an explosive bolt and only supposed to be activated by the building's Fireman's Switch :-) Mars probes can be rebooted, but the underlying BIOS-type code cannot, and it has all kinds of fail-safe routines built in, if code doesn't work it reverts back to the last known good version. Much like today's smartphones which is the prime reason why it's normally insanely hard to permanently brick them. But all that really does is move the you can't ever halt this code section one level lower One reason I mentioned the Mars thing, I recall them having a puter on Mars or something that had a hiccup and they thought they had lost it. Somehow it just popped itself back up tho. I guess it was trying to find some code that did work and finally did. I remember them saying they tried to upload something to fix a error then it went all wacky on them. It amazes me tho how long those puters they send to Pluto and such can last. It also seems that something always goes wrong too. I remember the Pluto thing had a antenna that didn't open up all the way. It wasn't able to send as much data as they wanted but they worked around it. I have no idea how those things can work in the environment they are in either. It does help me to understand how my old rig here hangs in there tho. Six years old and still kicken. I blow the dust out and no deadly cosmic rays either. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Dale wrote: One reason I mentioned the Mars thing, I recall them having a puter on Mars or something that had a hiccup and they thought they had lost it. Somehow it just popped itself back up tho. I guess it was trying to find some code that did work and finally did. I remember them saying I'm sure that was just your friendly neighbourhood martian that rebooted the 'puter... Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W -- It's one o them musics with little sticky prongs all over it so it can cling to the inside of your head for days. ~S Sortir en Pantoufles: up 1099 days, 23:29
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
pk wrote: Dale wrote: One reason I mentioned the Mars thing, I recall them having a puter on Mars or something that had a hiccup and they thought they had lost it. Somehow it just popped itself back up tho. I guess it was trying to find some code that did work and finally did. I remember them saying I'm sure that was just your friendly neighbourhood martian that rebooted the 'puter... Sorry, couldn't resist! :-) Best regards Peter K Hey, they have geeks too !! Yeppie !! I couldn't resist either. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Willie Wong wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W you really love to waste electricity for nothing, do you?
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
On Samstag 12 Dezember 2009, Dale wrote: Willie Wong wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W I have noticed that before. There is someone that has like four or five years on here somewhere. Maybe it was the forums. Anyway, we have to reboot eventually. The power company forced me to shut down. Of course, they have been doing a lot better job trimming the trees since then. I got big piles of mulch to prove it too. ;-) We also haven't had a hurricane again either. That helps a little. Dale :-) :-) and what is the advantage? Why do you keep your computer running, wasting energy? Is there any good reason?
Re: [gentoo-user] What magic does portage use?
Willie Wong wrote: On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 12:54:46PM -0600, Penguin Lover Dale squawked: That is certainly one good example. My little ol desktop is not rebooted to much. I once went 242 days without a reboot. Ahem! While we are busy comparing wang sizes, read my sig please. That is the server formerly known as my desktop. Cheers, W I have noticed that before. There is someone that has like four or five years on here somewhere. Maybe it was the forums. Anyway, we have to reboot eventually. The power company forced me to shut down. Of course, they have been doing a lot better job trimming the trees since then. I got big piles of mulch to prove it too. ;-) We also haven't had a hurricane again either. That helps a little. Dale :-) :-)
