Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/04/2018 05:45 AM, Stroller wrote:

Yet the above had a from: address at the tnetconsulting.net domain.


Said from address was a sub-domain, which has a different DMARC policy.


Moaning to me won't change how the mailing list software works.


Sharing my opinion on things without expecting anyone to change is not 
moaning.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Stroller]

> On 3 Mar 2018, at 19:00, Grant Taylor  
> wrote:
> 
> * I do not consider messages from me re-sent by mailing lists to be messages 
> that I send.  I say this because my email infrastructure does NOT connect to 
> any of the mailing list subscribers receiving email infrastructure.  IMHO the 
> mailing list is sending a /new/ message to those recipients.  Said message 
> just happens to be strongly based on a message that I sent.

Yet the above had a from: address at the tnetconsulting.net domain.

Moaning to me won't change how the mailing list software works.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/03/2018 12:00 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:
* I do not consider messages from me re-sent by mailing lists to be 
messages that I send.  I say this because my email infrastructure does 
NOT connect to any of the mailing list subscribers receiving email 
infrastructure.  IMHO the mailing list is sending a /new/ message to 
those recipients.  Said message just happens to be strongly based on a 
message that I sent.


Further to this point…

When Dale (et al) requested that messages (which were reported in their 
bounce notifications) be re-sent to them, those messages did NOT 
originate from my email infrastructure in any capacity.  They are 
complete (re)generations by the mailing list manager.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die


P.S.  If you can't tell, I have very strong opinions on things.  I've 
recently been stating that ARP is a layer 3 protocol, just like IP. 
(They both have their own EtherType and ride on top of the L2 Ethernet 
Protocol.)  The only difference is that ARP is unrouted where as IP is 
routed.

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/03/2018 07:47 AM, Stroller wrote:
My recollection is that I read this isn't that beneficial - that a policy 
of ~ is adequate.


I'm guessing that you're referring to SPF's "~all" policy.

Why, as a domain owner that knows for a fact where messages are sent 
from, want to allow for the possibility of someone else spoofing 
messages as my domain to be "…accepted but tagged…"? 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework)


I run the servers, I know the email infrastructure, I *KNOW* how email 
is supposed to flow.  So why give anyone an in rode?


Further, I accept any and all responsibility for the SPF record that I 
publish blocking any legitimate email that I (*) send.  The onus is on 
me if I break delivery of email that I send.


* I do not consider messages from me re-sent by mailing lists to be 
messages that I send.  I say this because my email infrastructure does 
NOT connect to any of the mailing list subscribers receiving email 
infrastructure.  IMHO the mailing list is sending a /new/ message to 
those recipients.  Said message just happens to be strongly based on a 
message that I sent.


Finally, each and every single email administrator / domain owner / etc 
is allowed to configure their systems as they see fit.  If they (or I) 
want to do something that will shoot them (or me) in the foot, who am I 
(or you) to stop them (or me) from doing so?




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[J. Roeleveld]

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 11:38:42 PM CET Dale wrote:
> Branko Grubic wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
> > 
> > R0b0t1  wrote:
> >> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> >> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> >> send help.
> >> 
> >> With much concern,
> >> 
> >>  R0b0t1
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was just thinking about asking the same question, I also get those
> > recently.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Branko
> 
> I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
> retrieve those messages somehow??
> 
> 
> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
> - 182748
> - 182749
> - 182751
> 
> 
> I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a thread
> into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to read/reply
> etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email software, it seems
> we are missing something.
> 
> I might also wonder, what happened to 182750??

You probably received 182750.

I used to get these messages, this was caused by bad behaving spam filters on 
the receiving mailserver.
I solved it by switching to different inbound mailservers.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Stroller]

> On 2 Mar 2018, at 22:51, Grant Taylor  
> wrote:
> 
> On 03/02/2018 09:36 AM, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
>> These are all from Grant Taylor.  They are DKIM-signed, and, not 
>> surprisingly given the list header and footer munging, signature 
>> verification fails (on my mail server).
> 
> Correct.  DKIM verification is failing and my DMARC policy is configured to 
> REJECT messages that fail DKIM or SPF tests.

My recollection is that I read this isn't that beneficial - that a policy of ~ 
is adequate.

Stroller.

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/02/2018 04:59 PM, Dale wrote:
I admit.  This is all over my head.  I'm just hoping I didn't miss 
anything important.  The biggest thing, some of you figured out what 
happened, created a roach report and hopefully it will lead to a fix 
at some point.  Heck, I'm happy that whatever the heck is going on, 
it will be corrected.


I'm taking the fact that you're replying to my message to mean that you 
did receive it.  Which sounds like the workaround is functioning.  :-)


Now to go play with my new battery charger.  It's a XTAR VC4 with a 
really pretty blue display.  O_O


#hazFun



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 03/02/2018 02:52 PM, Dale wrote:
>> I did send a help message first, so that I would know exactly what to
>> do.  I followed it.  Still, I don't think I received anything even now.
>
> I'm not surprised.
>
> The testing that I did last night when you posted the links caused me
> to believe that the original messages were re-sent to the requester
> the exact same way that they were originally sent.  (I actually like
> that feature.)
>
> I sort of expect that you won't get the re-sent message because it
> will very likely fail the same tests that the original message failed.
>
>> I know I didn't get anything new for at least 15 or 20 minutes and
>> even then, it was a reply to a recent post.  I wouldn't think that
>> would be a missing message from a few days ago.
>>
>> Maybe it is something else.  Maybe it is google on my end in this
>> case anyway.  I dunno.
>
> The re-sent messages that I saw were the original message, re-sent.
> This means that they would have the same subject, date, etc, not
> updated for when you requested them to be re-sent.  Thus if you're
> threading messages, they will show up in the thread where the original
> message belonged.
>
>
>

I admit.  This is all over my head.  I'm just hoping I didn't miss
anything important.  The biggest thing, some of you figured out what
happened, created a roach report and hopefully it will lead to a fix at
some point.  Heck, I'm happy that whatever the heck is going on, it will
be corrected. 

Now to go play with my new battery charger.  It's a XTAR VC4 with a
really pretty blue display.  O_O 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Grant Taylor]

On 03/02/2018 02:52 PM, Dale wrote:
I did send a help message first, so that I would know exactly what to do. 
 I followed it.  Still, I don't think I received anything even now.


I'm not surprised.

The testing that I did last night when you posted the links caused me to 
believe that the original messages were re-sent to the requester the 
exact same way that they were originally sent.  (I actually like that 
feature.)


I sort of expect that you won't get the re-sent message because it will 
very likely fail the same tests that the original message failed.


I know I didn't get anything new for at least 15 or 20 minutes and even 
then, it was a reply to a recent post.  I wouldn't think that would be 
a missing message from a few days ago.


Maybe it is something else.  Maybe it is google on my end in this 
case anyway.  I dunno.


The re-sent messages that I saw were the original message, re-sent. 
This means that they would have the same subject, date, etc, not updated 
for when you requested them to be re-sent.  Thus if you're threading 
messages, they will show up in the thread where the original message 
belonged.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Floyd Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 23:28:51 -0600
> Dale  wrote:
>> Floyd Anderson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
>>> Ian Zimmerman  wrote:
 On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:

> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
> - 182748
> - 182749
> - 182751

 If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
 were, so we can guess as to the cause.

>>>
>>> Just send an empty mail to:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>> where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>> and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within
>>> one minute.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Interesting.  The plot thickens.  I sent mine hours ago and got nothing
>> yet, other than the recent replies which are in sequence so far.  This
>> is what I sent to get them:
>>
>> gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org
>
> that should give you [1]
>
>> gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org
>
> and also [2]
>
>> gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org
>
> and finally [3]. The sequence order shouldn’t play any role I think. A
> year ago I got also massive bounces here (due to my mail provider) and
> requested a bunch of (collected) list mails by a script – nearly
> without problems (sometimes I had to do it twice for certain emails).
>
>> Am I missing something?
>
> I don’t think so. Did you previously receive a help message from
> ? Or just try your success with
>  (my previous reply or try
> your own [182794] email), so the Gentoo side can probably be excluded.
>
>> I wonder if google is blocking them. I have to BCC myself to get my
>> replies since google sends them to /dev/null otherwise. Annoying thing.
>
> Since all three emails have the same source, I found some blacklist
> results on [4] but I don’t know whether this is relevant, i.e. I’m
> purely guessing here.
>
>
> References:
>   - [1] 
> 
>
>   - [2] 
> 
>
>   - [3] 
> 
>
>   - [4] 
>
>
>

I did send a help message first, so that I would know exactly what to
do.  I followed it.  Still, I don't think I received anything even now. 
I know I didn't get anything new for at least 15 or 20 minutes and even
then, it was a reply to a recent post.  I wouldn't think that would be a
missing message from a few days ago. 

Maybe it is something else.  Maybe it is google on my end in this case
anyway.  I dunno. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Floyd Anderson]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2018 08:36:23 -0800
Ian Zimmerman  wrote:

On 2018-03-02 12:04, Floyd Anderson wrote:







These are all from Grant Taylor.  They are DKIM-signed, and, not
surprisingly given the list header and footer munging, signature
verification fails (on my mail server).

Munging by lists should just die.  Why do it?  Windoze and Goo users may
have to split their mail into folders by Subject, but surely Gentooers
know better?


Yes, after reading the Gmail log snippet from the bug that Branko has 
filed, there is also a DMARC policy involved with an unauthenticated 
email. The site linked in that snippet mentioned also:


“[…] Google rejects all messages from eBay or PayPal that aren’t 
authenticated.”



--
Regards,
floyd

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Daniel Frey]

On 03/01/18 12:42, R0b0t1 wrote:
> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> send help.
> 
> With much concern,
>  R0b0t1
> 

I've noticed quite a few in the last couple weeks myself. Gmail perhaps
doesn't like mailer traffic now?

Although I don't recall ever getting any message about this in the past.

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Branko Grubic]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
R0b0t1  wrote:

> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> send help.
> 
> With much concern,
>  R0b0t1
> 

I opened a bug[1] for the infra team, possibly they can analyze the
logs/reports to see why this happens.

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/649366

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Floyd Anderson]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 23:28:51 -0600
Dale  wrote:

Floyd Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
Ian Zimmerman  wrote:

On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:


Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- 182748
- 182749
- 182751


If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
were, so we can guess as to the cause.



Just send an empty mail to:

   

where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:

   

and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within
one minute.




Interesting.  The plot thickens.  I sent mine hours ago and got nothing
yet, other than the recent replies which are in sequence so far.  This
is what I sent to get them:

gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org


that should give you [1]


gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org


and also [2]


gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org


and finally [3]. The sequence order shouldn’t play any role I think. A 
year ago I got also massive bounces here (due to my mail provider) and 
requested a bunch of (collected) list mails by a script – nearly without 
problems (sometimes I had to do it twice for certain emails).



Am I missing something?


I don’t think so. Did you previously receive a help message from 
? Or just try your success with
 (my previous reply or try your 
own [182794] email), so the Gentoo side can probably be excluded.



I wonder if google is blocking them. I have to BCC myself to get my
replies since google sends them to /dev/null otherwise. Annoying thing.


Since all three emails have the same source, I found some blacklist 
results on [4] but I don’t know whether this is relevant, i.e. I’m 
purely guessing here.



References:
  - [1] 

  - [2] 

  - [3] 

  - [4] 



--
Regards,
floyd

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Floyd Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
> Ian Zimmerman  wrote:
>> On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:
>>
>>> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
>>> - 182748
>>> - 182749
>>> - 182751
>>
>> If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
>> were, so we can guess as to the cause.
>>
>
> Just send an empty mail to:
>
>    
>
> where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:
>
>    
>
> and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within
> one minute.
>
>

Interesting.  The plot thickens.  I sent mine hours ago and got nothing
yet, other than the recent replies which are in sequence so far.  This
is what I sent to get them:

gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org

gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org

gentoo-user+get-182...@lists.gentoo.org

Those look like the same format as yours.  Wonder why I haven't got
anything yet?  Am I missing something?  I wonder if google is blocking
them.  I have to BCC myself to get my replies since google sends them to
/dev/null otherwise.  Annoying thing.  I keep saying I'm going to get a
real email but it's always next week, which never seems to get here.  :/

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Floyd Anderson]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 20:21:52 -0800
Ian Zimmerman  wrote:

On 2018-03-01 18:12, Dale wrote:


Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- 182748
- 182749
- 182751


If you succeed in retrieving them, please let us know which ones they
were, so we can guess as to the cause.



Just send an empty mail to:

   

where ‘N’ is the message number, for instance:

   

and you should receive the requested mail (182749). I got it within one 
minute.



--
Regards,
floyd

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 23:48:27 +0100, Branko Grubic wrote:
>
>>> I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
>>> retrieve those messages somehow??
> Yes, send a help message to the list admin address, the details are on
> the mailing list page at gentoo.org. You'll get back a list of commands
> you can send, including one to retrieve individual messages.
>

Tried that and didn't get anything.  Tried it twice.  Given some
messages are bouncing and the retrieve feature isn't working, I wonder
if there is some sort of issue, hardware or software, with the servers?? 

Weird.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 23:48:27 +0100, Branko Grubic wrote:

> > I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
> > retrieve those messages somehow??

Yes, send a help message to the list admin address, the details are on
the mailing list page at gentoo.org. You'll get back a list of commands
you can send, including one to retrieve individual messages.

> But what is interesting is that all of us use gmail.

What you meant to say was that all the respondents to date were using
gmail, I don't and I've also had a few of these in the past couple of
days.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

This tagline is baroque; please call Bach.


pgpfZfNT7mpEk.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Branko Grubic]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:38:42 -0600
Dale  wrote:

> Branko Grubic wrote:
> > On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
> > R0b0t1  wrote:
> >  
...
> 
> 
> I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
> retrieve those messages somehow??
> 
> 
> Here is the list of the bounced messages:
> - 182748
> - 182749
> - 182751
> 
> 
> I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a
> thread into some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to
> read/reply etc then it wouldn't matter but for those who use email
> software, it seems we are missing something.  
> 
> I might also wonder, what happened to 182750??  
...

I have no idea, does it mean it bounced, and mailing list software did
re-send them later or not. I don't see a way to use those numbers to
find out which email message relates to the number. So no answer for
any of those.

But what is interesting is that all of us use gmail.

It could be that gmail is receiving a lot of messages from
lists.gentoo.org and that triggers some spam protection? :(

Regards,
Branko

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Dale]

Branko Grubic wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
> R0b0t1  wrote:
>
>> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
>> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
>> send help.
>>
>> With much concern,
>>  R0b0t1
>>
> Hi,
>
> I was just thinking about asking the same question, I also get those
> recently.
>
> Regards,
> Branko
>
>


I have got a couple recently as well.  I wonder, can this be used to
retrieve those messages somehow??


Here is the list of the bounced messages:
- 182748
- 182749
- 182751


I keep my messages locally so when I miss messages, it can throw a thread into 
some random weirdness.  If one uses the web interface to read/reply etc then it 
wouldn't matter but for those who use email software, it seems we are missing 
something.  

I might also wonder, what happened to 182750??  

Dale

:-)  :-)  

Re: [gentoo-user] Bouncing Messages

[Branko Grubic]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:42:35 -0600
R0b0t1  wrote:

> I keep getting emails from the mailer daemon about bouncing messages.
> I am worried. Am I missing messages from my internet friends? Please
> send help.
> 
> With much concern,
>  R0b0t1
> 

Hi,

I was just thinking about asking the same question, I also get those
recently.

Regards,
Branko