Re: [geo] Ocean pastures, clouds, and salmon

[Andrew Lockley]

It's reference 3 on my 'license to chill' paper on the commercial
implications
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1461452916630082
It's available FOC on my academia.edu profile

Andrew Lockley






On 5 Jul 2017 16:26, "Greg Rau"  wrote:

> Could you provide a citation for the established link?
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 5, 2017, at 12:37 AM, Andrew Lockley 
> wrote:
>
> There's an established link between SRM and CDR, via increasing ocean
> acidification by dissolution.
>
> MCB would seem to be more directly effective than SRM, as nearly 100pc of
> its effects go into cooling the ocean surface and lower Tropospheric air
> over the ocean.
>
> Has anyone modelled this? If not, can someone please put it on their "to
> do' list?
>
> A
>
> On 5 Jul 2017 06:22, "Ronal W. Larson"  wrote:
>
>> Greg, cc list:
>>
>> 1.   Thanks for alerting us on 1 July to the cloudiness-CDR-related
>> message found at the Russ George website  (http://russgeorge.net/2017/0
>> 7/01/greatest-uncertainty-in-climate-change-models-is-dimini
>> shing-cloudiness/  ).   I hope others can chime in on the validity of
>> the strong relationship George asserts between phytoplankton and clouds.
>> Is this as important as the much discussed SRM option involving ships
>> spraying salt particles to help form clouds?
>>
>> 2.  Your brief cite from Russ George refers to “a new paper” - which
>> (free and 9 pages) can be found at http://onlinelibrary.wiley.
>> com/doi/10.1002/2017EF000601/epdf, entitled:
>>“Could geoengineering research help answer one of the biggest
>> questions in climate science?”
>> with first author Robert Wood.  The “biggest question” is of course
>> related to cloud formation as stated in your quote below from Russ George.
>> 3.  I was amazed at the many messages at the George site that relate to
>> geoengineering and this cloud topic  (and *NOT* to Russ George’s fame
>> with  OIF = Ocean Iron Fertilization).   Examples of cites that I found
>> relating to this cloud-plankton topic:
>> a.   https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~robwood/papers/
>> geoengineering/Wood_Ackerman_CLIMATICCHANGE_2013.pdf   (A predecessor to
>> the above “biggest question” paper.
>>
>> b.   https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/60/9/722/238034/
>> Microalgae-The-Potential-for-Carbon-Capture   A 2010 article by Sayre
>> (recommended by Russ George):
>>
>> c.  https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/features/clouds-plankton
>> a short free 2014 more non-technical contribution on the sulfur aspects.
>>
>> d.James Lovelock in a later book ‘The Revenge of Gaia’ in 2006,
>> refers to his Anti-CLAW Hypothesis.  CLAW comes from four last names - with
>> L for Lovelock. This shows that this is not a new topic.  I hope some
>> on the list with a real background (I have none) can give other opinions on
>> how seriously we should take Mr.  George’s views on plankton-clouds-climate
>> (as opposed to plankton and increased salmon production).
>>
>> 4.  I suspect there could be a biochar side to this cloud aspect of ocean
>> biomass - and possibly even to phytoplankton.  I suspect you have probably
>> given us this cite to agree with Ross George that the geo aspect deserves
>> study.  I am not expecting you or anyone on this list to agree that this
>> should promote biochar.  In fact, his emphasis on missing dust would say
>> that biochar’s emphasis on increased “green-ness” is evidence that biochar
>> should make less dust most likely.   But I can also argue that biochar from
>> ocean biomass (placed on land, not in the ocean) could/might more than
>> offset the “dust-free” negative aspect of land-based biochar.   Of course
>> it opens the possibility of a much larger supply than available from the 28
>> % of the earth’s surface *NOT* ocean.
>>
>> 5.   I also found the George message comparing the Sustainable
>> Development Goals (SDGs)  #14 (oceans) and #15 (land) to be particularly
>> disturbing from a combined CDR/SRM perspective.  Mr.  George is
>> particularly upset about the UN system doing too little with #14 (oceans).
>>   I believe you agree - and could be (?)  the reason for your message
>> below.   This concern about SDG #14 (brand new to me) is on much more than
>> this relationship between plankton and clouds - and could be worth
>> considerable discussion by this list - as CDR might look more possible with
>> a bigger supply. So this is a very separate reason for thanking you for
>> your 1 July message below. I’ll send more on only this in the AM.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Greg Rau  wrote:
>>
>> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness -
>> Russ George
>> 
>>
>> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness -
>> R...
>> 

Re: [geo] Ocean pastures, clouds, and salmon

[Greg Rau]

Could you provide a citation for the established link?
Thanks,
Greg

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 5, 2017, at 12:37 AM, Andrew Lockley  wrote:
> 
> There's an established link between SRM and CDR, via increasing ocean 
> acidification by dissolution. 
> 
> MCB would seem to be more directly effective than SRM, as nearly 100pc of its 
> effects go into cooling the ocean surface and lower Tropospheric air over the 
> ocean. 
> 
> Has anyone modelled this? If not, can someone please put it on their "to do' 
> list? 
> 
> A
> 
>> On 5 Jul 2017 06:22, "Ronal W. Larson"  wrote:
>> Greg, cc list:
>> 
>>  1.   Thanks for alerting us on 1 July to the cloudiness-CDR-related 
>> message found at the Russ George website  
>> (http://russgeorge.net/2017/07/01/greatest-uncertainty-in-climate-change-models-is-diminishing-cloudiness/
>>   ).   I hope others can chime in on the validity of the strong relationship 
>> George asserts between phytoplankton and clouds.  Is this as important as 
>> the much discussed SRM option involving ships spraying salt particles to 
>> help form clouds?
>> 
>>  2.  Your brief cite from Russ George refers to “a new paper” - which 
>> (free and 9 pages) can be found at 
>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2017EF000601/epdf, entitled:  
>>“Could geoengineering research help answer one of the biggest questions 
>> in climate science?”
>>  with first author Robert Wood.  The “biggest question” is of course 
>> related to cloud formation as stated in your quote below from Russ George.  
>>  
>>  3.  I was amazed at the many messages at the George site that relate to 
>> geoengineering and this cloud topic  (and NOT to Russ George’s fame with  
>> OIF = Ocean Iron Fertilization).   Examples of cites that I found relating 
>> to this cloud-plankton topic:
>>  
>> a.   
>> https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~robwood/papers/geoengineering/Wood_Ackerman_CLIMATICCHANGE_2013.pdf
>>(A predecessor to the above “biggest question” paper.
>> 
>> b.   
>> https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/60/9/722/238034/Microalgae-The-Potential-for-Carbon-Capture
>>A 2010 article by Sayre (recommended by Russ George):  
>> 
>> c.  https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/features/clouds-plankton  a 
>> short free 2014 more non-technical contribution on the sulfur aspects.
>> 
>> d.James Lovelock in a later book ‘The Revenge of Gaia’ in 2006, refers 
>> to his Anti-CLAW Hypothesis.  CLAW comes from four last names - with L for 
>> Lovelock. This shows that this is not a new topic.  I hope some on the 
>> list with a real background (I have none) can give other opinions on how 
>> seriously we should take Mr.  George’s views on plankton-clouds-climate (as 
>> opposed to plankton and increased salmon production).
>> 
>>  4.  I suspect there could be a biochar side to this cloud aspect of 
>> ocean biomass - and possibly even to phytoplankton.  I suspect you have 
>> probably given us this cite to agree with Ross George that the geo aspect 
>> deserves study.  I am not expecting you or anyone on this list to agree that 
>> this should promote biochar.  In fact, his emphasis on missing dust would 
>> say that biochar’s emphasis on increased “green-ness” is evidence that 
>> biochar should make less dust most likely.   But I can also argue that 
>> biochar from ocean biomass (placed on land, not in the ocean) could/might 
>> more than offset the “dust-free” negative aspect of land-based biochar.   Of 
>> course it opens the possibility of a much larger supply than available from 
>> the 28 % of the earth’s surface NOT ocean.
>> 
>>  5.   I also found the George message comparing the Sustainable 
>> Development Goals (SDGs)  #14 (oceans) and #15 (land) to be particularly 
>> disturbing from a combined CDR/SRM perspective.  Mr.  George is particularly 
>> upset about the UN system doing too little with #14 (oceans).   I believe 
>> you agree - and could be (?)  the reason for your message below.   This 
>> concern about SDG #14 (brand new to me) is on much more than this 
>> relationship between plankton and clouds - and could be worth considerable 
>> discussion by this list - as CDR might look more possible with a bigger 
>> supply. So this is a very separate reason for thanking you for your 1 July 
>> message below. I’ll send more on only this in the AM.
>> 
>> Ron
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 1, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Greg Rau  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness - 
>>> Russ George
>>> 
>>> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness - 
>>> R...
>>> Restoring ocean pastures and their cooling clouds in 10% of the area 
>>> available would offset the warming from a d...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Climate scientists propose in a new paper published in the widely read 
>>> open source science journal Earth’s Future that by restoring 

Re: [geo] Ocean pastures, clouds, and salmon

[Andrew Lockley]

There's an established link between SRM and CDR, via increasing ocean
acidification by dissolution.

MCB would seem to be more directly effective than SRM, as nearly 100pc of
its effects go into cooling the ocean surface and lower Tropospheric air
over the ocean.

Has anyone modelled this? If not, can someone please put it on their "to
do' list?

A

On 5 Jul 2017 06:22, "Ronal W. Larson"  wrote:

> Greg, cc list:
>
> 1.   Thanks for alerting us on 1 July to the cloudiness-CDR-related
> message found at the Russ George website  (http://russgeorge.net/2017/
> 07/01/greatest-uncertainty-in-climate-change-models-is-
> diminishing-cloudiness/  ).   I hope others can chime in on the validity
> of the strong relationship George asserts between phytoplankton and
> clouds.  Is this as important as the much discussed SRM option involving
> ships spraying salt particles to help form clouds?
>
> 2.  Your brief cite from Russ George refers to “a new paper” - which (free
> and 9 pages) can be found at http://onlinelibrary.wiley.
> com/doi/10.1002/2017EF000601/epdf, entitled:
>“Could geoengineering research help answer one of the biggest questions
> in climate science?”
> with first author Robert Wood.  The “biggest question” is of course
> related to cloud formation as stated in your quote below from Russ George.
> 3.  I was amazed at the many messages at the George site that relate to
> geoengineering and this cloud topic  (and *NOT* to Russ George’s fame
> with  OIF = Ocean Iron Fertilization).   Examples of cites that I found
> relating to this cloud-plankton topic:
> a.   https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~robwood/papers/geoengineering/Wood_
> Ackerman_CLIMATICCHANGE_2013.pdf   (A predecessor to the above “biggest
> question” paper.
>
> b.   https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/60/9/722/
> 238034/Microalgae-The-Potential-for-Carbon-Capture   A 2010 article by
> Sayre (recommended by Russ George):
>
> c.  https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/features/clouds-plankton
> a short free 2014 more non-technical contribution on the sulfur aspects.
>
> d.James Lovelock in a later book ‘The Revenge of Gaia’ in 2006, refers
> to his Anti-CLAW Hypothesis.  CLAW comes from four last names - with L for
> Lovelock. This shows that this is not a new topic.  I hope some on the
> list with a real background (I have none) can give other opinions on how
> seriously we should take Mr.  George’s views on plankton-clouds-climate (as
> opposed to plankton and increased salmon production).
>
> 4.  I suspect there could be a biochar side to this cloud aspect of ocean
> biomass - and possibly even to phytoplankton.  I suspect you have probably
> given us this cite to agree with Ross George that the geo aspect deserves
> study.  I am not expecting you or anyone on this list to agree that this
> should promote biochar.  In fact, his emphasis on missing dust would say
> that biochar’s emphasis on increased “green-ness” is evidence that biochar
> should make less dust most likely.   But I can also argue that biochar from
> ocean biomass (placed on land, not in the ocean) could/might more than
> offset the “dust-free” negative aspect of land-based biochar.   Of course
> it opens the possibility of a much larger supply than available from the 28
> % of the earth’s surface *NOT* ocean.
>
> 5.   I also found the George message comparing the Sustainable Development
> Goals (SDGs)  #14 (oceans) and #15 (land) to be particularly disturbing
> from a combined CDR/SRM perspective.  Mr.  George is particularly upset
> about the UN system doing too little with #14 (oceans).   I believe you
> agree - and could be (?)  the reason for your message below.   This concern
> about SDG #14 (brand new to me) is on much more than this relationship
> between plankton and clouds - and could be worth considerable discussion by
> this list - as CDR might look more possible with a bigger supply. So this
> is a very separate reason for thanking you for your 1 July message below.
> I’ll send more on only this in the AM.
>
> Ron
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Greg Rau  wrote:
>
> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness -
> Russ George
> 
>
> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness -
> R...
> Restoring ocean pastures and their cooling clouds in 10% of the area
> available would offset the warming from a d...
>
> 
>
>
> "Climate scientists propose in a new paper published
>  in the
> widely read open source science journal Earth’s Future that by restoring
> cloudiness to selected areas of distant oceans a planetary cooling effect
> sufficient to offset a doubling of 

Re: [geo] Ocean pastures, clouds, and salmon

[Ronal W . Larson]

Greg, cc list:

1.   Thanks for alerting us on 1 July to the cloudiness-CDR-related 
message found at the Russ George website  
(http://russgeorge.net/2017/07/01/greatest-uncertainty-in-climate-change-models-is-diminishing-cloudiness/
 

  ).   I hope others can chime in on the validity of the strong relationship 
George asserts between phytoplankton and clouds.  Is this as important as the 
much discussed SRM option involving ships spraying salt particles to help form 
clouds?

2.  Your brief cite from Russ George refers to “a new paper” - which 
(free and 9 pages) can be found at 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2017EF000601/epdf 
, entitled:  
   “Could geoengineering research help answer one of the biggest questions in 
climate science?”
with first author Robert Wood.  The “biggest question” is of course 
related to cloud formation as stated in your quote below from Russ George.  

3.  I was amazed at the many messages at the George site that relate to 
geoengineering and this cloud topic  (and NOT to Russ George’s fame with  OIF = 
Ocean Iron Fertilization).   Examples of cites that I found relating to this 
cloud-plankton topic:

a.   
https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~robwood/papers/geoengineering/Wood_Ackerman_CLIMATICCHANGE_2013.pdf
 

   (A predecessor to the above “biggest question” paper.

b.   
https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/60/9/722/238034/Microalgae-The-Potential-for-Carbon-Capture
 

   A 2010 article by Sayre (recommended by Russ George):  

c.  https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/features/clouds-plankton 
  a short 
free 2014 more non-technical contribution on the sulfur aspects.

d.James Lovelock in a later book ‘The Revenge of Gaia’ in 2006, refers to 
his Anti-CLAW Hypothesis.  CLAW comes from four last names - with L for 
Lovelock. This shows that this is not a new topic.  I hope some on the list 
with a real background (I have none) can give other opinions on how seriously 
we should take Mr.  George’s views on plankton-clouds-climate (as opposed to 
plankton and increased salmon production).

4.  I suspect there could be a biochar side to this cloud aspect of 
ocean biomass - and possibly even to phytoplankton.  I suspect you have 
probably given us this cite to agree with Ross George that the geo aspect 
deserves study.  I am not expecting you or anyone on this list to agree that 
this should promote biochar.  In fact, his emphasis on missing dust would say 
that biochar’s emphasis on increased “green-ness” is evidence that biochar 
should make less dust most likely.   But I can also argue that biochar from 
ocean biomass (placed on land, not in the ocean) could/might more than offset 
the “dust-free” negative aspect of land-based biochar.   Of course it opens the 
possibility of a much larger supply than available from the 28 % of the earth’s 
surface NOT ocean.

5.   I also found the George message comparing the Sustainable 
Development Goals (SDGs)  #14 (oceans) and #15 (land) to be particularly 
disturbing from a combined CDR/SRM perspective.  Mr.  George is particularly 
upset about the UN system doing too little with #14 (oceans).   I believe you 
agree - and could be (?)  the reason for your message below.   This concern 
about SDG #14 (brand new to me) is on much more than this relationship between 
plankton and clouds - and could be worth considerable discussion by this list - 
as CDR might look more possible with a bigger supply. So this is a very 
separate reason for thanking you for your 1 July message below. I’ll send more 
on only this in the AM.

Ron


> On Jul 1, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Greg Rau  wrote:
> 
> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness - 
> Russ George 
> 
> 
> 
> Greatest Uncertainty In Climate Change Models Is Diminishing Cloudiness - R...
> Restoring ocean pastures and their cooling clouds in 10% of the area 
> available would offset the warming from a d...
>  
> 
> 
> 
> "Climate scientists propose in a new paper published 
>  in the widely 
> read open source science journal Earth’s Future that by restoring cloudiness 
> to selected areas of distant oceans a planetary cooling effect