Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
On 1 May 2004, at 11:02, J. Grant wrote: I wonder if there is any way I can donate money towards development of a specific feature addition in GIMP? Hello J., I guess there are two ways: 1) Unconditionally donate money to the group. This may buy you goodwill, and it will enable GIMP developers to get together on GIMP conferences, which may help the progress of the project in general. However, it won't influence directly the creation of the feature you want. 2) Find a developer (not necesarilly an existing GIMP developer) who will create the feature for you. Note that even in case 2, there is absolutely no guarantee that the feature will be folded into the GIMP tree that is developed by the people on this list. For that, you would probably need to convince the people on this list that your feature is useful, and your developer will have to make sure (s)he sticks by the rules of adding code to the tree. Of course, having the code remain outside the GIMP may be exactly what you want. In that case, your task is just to find a developer. There used to be websites where you could hook up with such coders (sort of like dating sites :-)), but I don't seem to be able to flex my renowned Google skills this very moment and find some for you. If you would like to have something developed that can be used by others (i.e. free software), please tell us what you want. -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
J. Grant wrote: Hi Branko, Thanks for your reply. While I love the flexibility the separate windows of the GIMP software provide. A friend and I think it would be very useful to have a single window styled layout (as well as the present flexible window position interface), where all GIMP child windows are within a core GIMP window. I think this is called MDI (Multiple Document Interface). This style of interface is common in proprietary gfx software we have used. Actually, it is called Window in Window MDI, or WiW. It is mainly used on the Microsoft Windows platform, which, despite it's name, is rather limited in regard to handling application windows. My friend and I are thinking 50 (UKP) each donation so far (I know not much, but we don't have a lot to spare.. if others would donate it could be increased). If there is support for this idea, I could email the gimp-users list and ask if others would like to donate for this feature. I wonder if there are any programmers (way 2 below) who would like some donated money to work on this style of window layout..? You might want to have a look at XNest, or the following GIMP plug-in if you are working on Win32: http://registry.gimp.org/plugin?id=3892 I don't know if there is an equivalent for Mac OS X, though. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org| IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Sodipodi http://sodipodi.sf.net | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/sodipodi ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
Hi Branko, Thanks for your reply. While I love the flexibility the separate windows of the GIMP software provide. A friend and I think it would be very useful to have a single window styled layout (as well as the present flexible window position interface), where all GIMP child windows are within a core GIMP window. I think this is called MDI (Multiple Document Interface). This style of interface is common in proprietary gfx software we have used. My friend and I are thinking 50 (UKP) each donation so far (I know not much, but we don't have a lot to spare.. if others would donate it could be increased). If there is support for this idea, I could email the gimp-users list and ask if others would like to donate for this feature. I wonder if there are any programmers (way 2 below) who would like some donated money to work on this style of window layout..? Alternatively we would be happy to donate to (way 1 below) the GIMP group, if this new layout idea could be worked on in the group. Let me know what you think. Kind regards JG on the 01/05/04 13:23, Branko Collin wrote: On 1 May 2004, at 11:02, J. Grant wrote: I wonder if there is any way I can donate money towards development of a specific feature addition in GIMP? Hello J., I guess there are two ways: 1) Unconditionally donate money to the group. This may buy you goodwill, and it will enable GIMP developers to get together on GIMP conferences, which may help the progress of the project in general. However, it won't influence directly the creation of the feature you want. 2) Find a developer (not necesarilly an existing GIMP developer) who will create the feature for you. Note that even in case 2, there is absolutely no guarantee that the feature will be folded into the GIMP tree that is developed by the people on this list. For that, you would probably need to convince the people on this list that your feature is useful, and your developer will have to make sure (s)he sticks by the rules of adding code to the tree. Of course, having the code remain outside the GIMP may be exactly what you want. In that case, your task is just to find a developer. There used to be websites where you could hook up with such coders (sort of like dating sites :-)), but I don't seem to be able to flex my renowned Google skills this very moment and find some for you. If you would like to have something developed that can be used by others (i.e. free software), please tell us what you want. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
On 1 May 2004, at 13:51, J. Grant wrote: Thanks for your reply. Could you please cut my reply from yours if there are no specific points of my reply that you are addressing? It saves unnecessary scrolling on my part. While I love the flexibility the separate windows of the GIMP software provide. A friend and I think it would be very useful to have a single window styled layout (as well as the present flexible window position interface), where all GIMP child windows are within a core GIMP window. I think this is called MDI (Multiple Document Interface). This style of interface is common in proprietary gfx software we have used. My friend and I are thinking £50 (UKP) each donation so far (I know not much, but we don't have a lot to spare.. if others would donate it could be increased). If there is support for this idea, I could email the gimp-users list and ask if others would like to donate for this feature. I am a firm believer of WiW for GIMP like software, but as such I stand mostly alone in this group (and I am not a developer, so don't expect any code to come from me). There have been several discussions about this topic; on this mailing list, in articles and discussions on Advogato, and in the Bugzilla enhancement requests posted for this and similar features (see http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7379). Search for terms like MDI, SDI, WiW et cetera. If there is any new information you can bring to this discussion, please do so on the appropriate forum. The consensus so far seems to be that the developers don't want to touch such a feature. It's hard to find the real arguments against the feature through the forest of emotional arguments that the discussion has produced so far, but it seems that the developers won't touch it, because the GIMP works perfectly fine for them the way it does now, and in their working environment. And that is of course a perfectly valid argument. Depending on the operating system you use, there may be software available that can help you. For MS Windows, for instance, there's a tool called Gimpex (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gimpex/). I haven't tried it much yet. -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
Hi all, Myself and Dan Rogers will be meeting with someone from the GNOME Foundation this week with the intention of having greater co-operation with them on things like money. For the moment, I am working under the supposition that the best option available to us is to join the GNOME Foundation. That means that when we do fundraising, the donations would go to the GNOME Foundation, and when we have expenses we would ask the GNOME Foundation for money. It would also be an idea to allow the Foundation to make wilber and GIMP T-shirts and the like to generate revenue. The alternative is that Dan continue with the work involved in creating an independent GIMP Foundation. As was discussed in Berlin last year, the initial powers and responsibilities of the foundation would be limited to a bank account and a federal tax ID, and the board would basically work on fundraising and spreading the message of GIMPLove (press releases and the like). The short term effects of doing this would be that we wouldn't have any way to accept tax-deductible donations in the US for this year, and it is unlikely (given Dan's current availability) that the foundation would have cleared up all paperwork issues and elected a board before the end of the year. On the other hand, a partnership with the GNOME Foundation would give us federal tax exempt status in the US now. We could probably work out an arrangement where contributions made to the GIMP get used for GIMP events. Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
Hi, Branko Collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The consensus so far seems to be that the developers don't want to touch such a feature. It's hard to find the real arguments against the feature through the forest of emotional arguments that the discussion has produced so far, but it seems that the developers won't touch it, because the GIMP works perfectly fine for them the way it does now, and in their working environment. And that is of course a perfectly valid argument. There are a couple of good arguments against this feature. Basically it is agreed that WiW is a bad concept that is being dropped by all major software companies nowadays. It was only ever introduced to work around the problem that some operating systems, namely Windows, don't handle many windows very well. So we should ask ourselves why people keep asking for it. I remember people mainly giving the following reasons: (1) multiple windows clutter the taskbar (2) the application can't be minimized/maximized as a whole GIMP addresses these points by setting the same WM_CLASS attribute on all GIMP windows, including plug-in dialogs. This allows the window manager to group the GIMP windows. This means that GIMP only shows up as a single item in the taskbar and that all its windows can be minimized/maximized together. Most window managers on Linux support this and I heard that Windows XP does at least support the taskbar grouping. I am not sure where Mac OS X stands here. Are there other advantages of WiW that I didn't address here? There are a couple of technical arguments against the implementation of a WiW user interface. First of all, there's no support from GTK+, so this would have to be all implemented in GIMP. It would duplicate the window manager functionality and the way that GIMP manages its subwindows would almost always be different than how the toplevel windows are managed. That's very bad from a usability point of view. Another argument is that we would certainly not want to drop the current user interface since it works well for a lot of people. So the WiW feature would have to implemented transparently for the rest of the application and doing this will be very difficult. It seems a lot easier to implement this whole thing outside The GIMP. There are already several attempts at doing this. They are all platform-specific but that's probably unavoidable. A sane approach for GIMP running on X11 is to run GIMP and a simple window manager in an Xnest session. Perhaps we should bundle a script that does this with the standard GIMP distribution. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Joining the GNOME Foundation
David Neary wrote: Are there any people opposed to closer ties with the GNOME Foundation? As long as GIMP wouldn't be in a rush to / obligated to subscribe to their apalling standards of slaphappy dead-end over-engineering and 1991-shareware approach to user interface standards then I think it makes reasonable short-term sense to exploit what GNOME *does* seem to be good at which is the centralization of services, organisational and financial structure... if that's helpful to GIMP (we've enjoyed peripheral use of some of their services such as CVS for a while). --Adam -- Adam D. Moss . ,,^^ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.foxbox.org/ co:3 Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp Menu Reorganization
Hi, Nathan Carl Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Noting that several people have expressed desires to improve GIMP's menu structure, I have started a Wiki page which we can use as a whiteboard for rearraigning the menu items. I have even started to group the menu items, although it still needs a lot of work. You don't need a special account or anything -- just visit http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/GimpMenuReorganization and hit EditText to edit the page. You can move things around, rename items, or just add commentary! Here is your chance to help make gimp more usable. Very nice. I wonder if there's a way to convert between the menu XML files and the Wiki content. That would make it possible to easily try the suggested menu layout. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
On 05/01/2004 07:16:32 PM, Sven Neumann wrote: There are a couple of good arguments against this feature. Basically it is agreed that WiW is a bad concept that is being dropped by all major software companies nowadays. It was only ever introduced to work around the problem that some operating systems, namely Windows, don't handle many windows very well. So we should ask ourselves why people keep asking for it. I remember people mainly giving the following reasons: (1) multiple windows clutter the taskbar (2) the application can't be minimized/maximized as a whole (3) the windows that are below it are not hidden by the application (4) the application can't be shaded (i.e. leave only the window title bar) as a whole For me there's another reason explained below. GIMP addresses these points by setting the same WM_CLASS attribute on all GIMP windows, including plug-in dialogs. This allows the window manager to group the GIMP windows. Personally I find it irritating to have so many windows open at once. In WindowMaker my only choice is to guess which of the icons is the GIMP one because it doesn't provide an icon that WindowMaker likes, so in practice I can't raise all windows at once. I also find confusing that between the image and the toolbox or the layers or the info window there can be windows from different applications. Of course a solution is to dedicate a virtual desktop only for the gimp but that's not practical sometimes. This means that GIMP only shows up as a single item in the taskbar and that all its windows can be minimized/maximized together. Most window managers on Linux support this and I heard that Windows XP does at least support the taskbar grouping. I am not sure where Mac OS X stands here. Taskbar grouping doesn't help since when you click on the taskbar button what you get is a menu of windows to choose from. It reduces the cluttering of the taskbar but does not allow raising all windows at once. There are a couple of technical arguments against the implementation of a WiW user interface. First of all, there's no support from GTK+, I'd say that first of all there's no WiW standard for window managers to comply. As a consequence, the embedded windows must be managed and decorated by the application rather than by the window manager, resulting in ugly hacks like those of kvirc and Scribus. Now this implies your argument about the lack of support from GTK+, which should act as a (sub)window manager for these reasons. Another argument is that we would certainly not want to drop the current user interface since it works well for a lot of people. So I seriously doubt that any user would object against having WiW in the preferences. the WiW feature would have to implemented transparently for the rest of the application and doing this will be very difficult. I don't think it would be so difficult actually, as it's just a matter of reparenting windows. I am making an experiment about transient windows. It is not window-in- window but uses a background window similarly to what Deweirdifier does. If it works well, maybe I can make the patch available as an attachment to bug #7379. Here's the result: http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/bgw-screenshot-1024.png (unlike http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/mdi-proposal-800.png this one is NOT a mockup but an actual screenshot) Pedro Gimeno ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Donation for GIMP features
Hi, Pedro Gimeno Fortea [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (3) the windows that are below it are not hidden by the application But that's _the_ major advantage of the current user interface. It allows you to easily use GIMP together with other applications such as web browser and file managers. Taskbar grouping doesn't help since when you click on the taskbar button what you get is a menu of windows to choose from. It reduces the cluttering of the taskbar but does not allow raising all windows at once. It does so here (using sawfish). IMO it would be a major regression if the individual GIMP windows would not any longer be accessible via the taskbar. That's the nice thing about taskbar grouping. You get a single item in the taskbar that represents the application but you can still easily access a specific GIMP window. Another argument is that we would certainly not want to drop the current user interface since it works well for a lot of people. So I seriously doubt that any user would object against having WiW in the preferences. That's not my point. But adding WiW to the GIMP code will almost certainly add a level of complexity to to the user interface code. Let alone the fact that noone has yet come up with a proposal on how plug-in dialogs should be handled. the WiW feature would have to implemented transparently for the rest of the application and doing this will be very difficult. I don't think it would be so difficult actually, as it's just a matter of reparenting windows. Eeek, reparenting :( Reparenting should IMHO be avoided. It will break code that relies on gtk_widget_get_toplevel() working properly. I am making an experiment about transient windows. It is not window-in- window but uses a background window similarly to what Deweirdifier does. If it works well, maybe I can make the patch available as an attachment to bug #7379. Here's the result: http://perso.wanadoo.es/p.gimeno/temp/bgw-screenshot-1024.png I don't understand this screenshot; it seems to just add another window. What's the advantage? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
